How many of you do this?

If you are a comp'd player at any game really. Do you ever shove chips into your pocket thinking "they" aren't watching or cant see you do this? Or that it makes a difference in comps? I always feel it helps if they see a loss or less of a win. true? Do you feel "they" are watching you do this? On camera that is. Do "they" care?

Quote: mds

If you are a comp'd player at any game really. Do you ever shove chips into your pocket thinking "they" aren't watching or cant see you do this? Or that it makes a difference in comps? I always feel it helps if they see a loss or less of a win. true? Do you feel "they" are watching you do this? On camera that is. Do "they" care?

Do it quietlt.And do it when they change dealer or supervisor.

Quote: speedycrap

Do it quietlt.And do it when they change dealer or supervisor.

So it does work in your favor? be very quiet... don't let anyone know... not even the people reading this..;)

Only take green because casino does not keep track of green but will check on black/purple/orange. Do it slowly and quietly.

Ratholing is the correct term I believe... Play it right and combine it with a few other things and you can play a break even game while getting comps.

+EV ;)

I don't play rated that often but I've learned from this site that comps are not based on actual losses. A formula for theoretical loss is used for each game and that's what they base comps on. Perhaps one of our high rollers could comment on their treatment but I don't think hiding chips will help in any case.

A consistent loser is always welcome at a casino. You get more lenient when getting comps.

I remember clicking a link that that radio show Wizard was on and it was the first one I had ever heard. The Wizard was like "Ratholing chips is a form of cheating" and one of the co-hosts(Richard Munchkin I believe) sounded like his head was going to explode. Was a funny way to get introduced to it.

Quote: Perdition

I remember clicking a link that that radio show Wizard was on and it was the first one I had ever heard. The Wizard was like "Ratholing chips is a form of cheating" and one of the co-hosts(Richard Munchkin I believe) sounded like his head was going to explode. Was a funny way to get introduced to it.

Ratholing chips is either to impose some self-control on a money-weak person ("If I put the black in my pocket, I can take it to the cage so I can leave with something...") or to deceive the casino ("I think this'll get me better comps'). In one case it's neurotic, in the other it's to deceive.

I keep my chips on the table, and focus on the game in front of me.

I agree that "Ratholing chips is a form of cheating" because you are really trying to deceive the casino. But the important part is that it is absolutely legal and I do it all the time.

deleted

I agree that ratholing is meant to deceive, but "cheating"??? C'mon, now...

Quote: Perdition

I remember clicking a link that that radio show Wizard was on and it was the first one I had ever heard. The Wizard was like "Ratholing chips is a form of cheating" and one of the co-hosts(Richard Munchkin I believe) sounded like his head was going to explode. Was a funny way to get introduced to it.

If I can remember correctly, the Wizard's statement was within the context of a loss rebate.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Such nonsense.

You put it much more nicely than I would have.

Quote: 1BB

I don't play rated that often but I've learned from this site that comps are not based on actual losses. A formula for theoretical loss is used for each game and that's what they base comps on. Perhaps one of our high rollers could comment on their treatment but I don't think hiding chips will help in any case.

Not that I qualify under the last sentence. But if actual losses were not a factor, why would the dealers and floor personnel be so precise and so darn curious about what you color up and what you leave with?

In other threads, it's been confirmed that the pit supes do in fact track what you get up with, especially if you're playing more than the table minimum, and I've personally seen them make a point of either stopping the player to check their remaining chips or ask the dealer exactly what they got up with if they left before the pit supervisor could get there. So I would say for sure that actual wins/losses on rated players (and some unrated if they've warranted closer oversight for some reason) matters a great deal to the casino.

Several people on here when telling back-off stories in the past few months have said that they were told some time after leaving the table, whether on their next visit, or while they're playing something else later, or trying to come back to the table, that they were disinvited to a particular game but welcome to play others in that casino. I'm guessing in some cases, that's because they needed to put together a pattern that included starting/ending money, betting strategy, surveillance review, and maybe an off-table discussion about the person with the dealer(s) involved before they took those measures.

I also know that it's important for my rating, both in tracking money and the possibly more subjective notes that they take on me, that they always want an accurate count on my session wins/losses, so I make sure it's getting entered before I leave the area. Might be a factor in my getting better comps than my play would seem to indicate, which suits me.

I do not see ratholeling a illegal or immoral (or fattening), nor do I think it affects a decision to back off a player ... but if you ever want to make a weird bet with a friend: bet him that the dealer or floor can give you the exact amount that you've rat holed during his stint. They are not blind. Its there job to watch chips. They do it and they do it well.

If I show up with a roll of chips held in my hands that I put in the rack at the craps table I'll mutter the amount to the dealer and that is what the floor will enter into the computer. If I leave without coloring up... I do the same, but only rarely.

Illegal? Immoral? I don't know about those words applying at all. I do know that these floorpeople / pit bosses are responsible for knowing how many chips are going where. If you are an advantage player then play at different places and don't give in a card. If you are RFB comped, then trying to hide money is a sure way to bring even more attention to you. Just let your wins and losses be what they are. I would also recommend you play at different places so your face isn't always around the same place all the time (a big error I have made in my career, staying too long and too often at the party).

Quote: SanchoPanza

Not that I qualify under the last sentence. But if actual losses were not a factor, why would the dealers and floor personnel be so precise and so darn curious about what you color up and what you leave with?

The floors depend on the dealers to keep them apprised because the floors have multiple tables and can't be everywhere at once. They are precise because the casinos don't trust the players, the floors and most of all their own dealers.

Player losses have never been a part of the comp formula and contrary to what some players believe, neither are large buy ins. That doesn't mean you can't get extra comps. If you have a good rapport with the floor they may bump up your average bet a little, say from $10 to$20. Tipping may also help because a lot of floors are dual rate and appreciate tips when they deal. Attractive females often do well at the comp game simply by sitting there and looking pretty. It's really quite comical watching some of these floors fall all over themselves.

Player losses have never been a part of the comp formula and contrary to what some players believe, neither are large buy ins.

Hey in Colorado it's about the only way they rate you. Rarely do they track your hours. Not saying it's not dumb, just true.

Quote: FrankScoblete

Illegal? Immoral? I don't know about those words applying at all. I do know that these floorpeople / pit bosses are responsible for knowing how many chips are going where. .

I just keep a few green chips from the casinos
I go to and never buy in. I cash out at the cage
but never turn in everything. Nobody ever notices
that you didn't buy in, they just assume you did
it at another table.

My money bought the chips. Or as Ronnie would say. " I am paying for these chips, Mr. Green "

Beethoven will understand.

Rat-holing in not illegal nor immoral, but it does make the Pit Supervisors jobs more difficult. When I was in the Pit Full time I would not be as generous with my rating for people that were rat-holing.

My job in the Pit is to correctly rate people. Their buy in, the time they played, their average bet and the amount they left with. If any one of those items is wrong it effects other things. If you are making my job difficult, you're not going to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to average bet.


ZCore13

I saw a couple get booted from a casino. They were winning and the woman was ratholing chips often. They were having a blast. A little distracting drunk and just having a great time.

If I were to do it,I would like just take half my stack in a one time deal seems reasonable. I know I've pocketed 25 once, I jus wanted gas money to get home. So it's a 300 dollar drive from Vegas and that should be okay.

Quote: wroberson

I saw a couple get booted from a casino. They were winning and the woman was ratholing chips often.

I don't understand the controversy over this. In
roulette, if you win more than $100, which happens
all the time, they pay you in roulette chips and green
and black, depending on the amount. 95% of players
put the casino chips in pocket or purse to not mix
them in with the roulette chips. The pit never says
a word, why would they.

HMMM $300 in gas ? Does your vehicle tags have Land Of Lincoln on them, for about the last 60 years ?

Quote: EvenBob

I don't understand the controversy over this. In
roulette, if you win more than $100, which happens
all the time, they pay you in roulette chips and green
and black, depending on the amount. 95% of players
put the casino chips in pocket or purse to not mix
them in with the roulette chips. The pit never says
a word, why would they.

in roulette I have noticed that when the dealer calls out paying in black, the floor always goes to the computer. I think they are marking you with the black right away instead of when you leave.

Does the floor keep track if you win or lose in order for the casino to figure out their win/loss numbers for the game more so than ratings for a player?

I've done it when I was winning and just wanted to make sure I kept some of the winnings. By putting the chips in my pocket I knew I wouldn't end up betting them. I don't win enough to make ratholing profitable. The one casino where I play craps regularly is pretty generous with comps and the craps dealers and floor supervisors are very friendly and know all the regulars by name. I've seen plenty of players do it and never heard anyone say anything about it. I've even watched slot players pull out their cards when they hit a bonus to avoid having the win register on their card/account.

Quote: GWAE

in roulette I have noticed that when the dealer calls out paying in black, the floor always goes to the computer.

Not in the places I go. They always come when a
black is given out, but they for sure don't go to
the computer. If it's busy they just wave their hand
from 10' away.

Quote: GWAE

in roulette I have noticed that when the dealer calls out paying in black, the floor always goes to the computer. I think they are marking you with the black right away instead of when you leave.

Does the floor keep track if you win or lose in order for the casino to figure out their win/loss numbers for the game more so than ratings for a player?

Just making sure the dealer isn't giving you a black instead of a proper .25cent roulette chip.

I have never before heard anything about "rat-holing" being illegal or immoral or cheating.

I can think of multiple times at multiple casinos where I was lucky to be part of a great roll where I put $1,000 and once a $5,000 chip in my pocket. In fact, when I got the $5,000 chip as the dealer put it before me on a payout he said "put this in your pocket" which is exactly what I did.

When I did put a large chip in my pocket I would hold it up so that the floorman would see what I was doing -- and he would nod. I did that because I know they keep a running count of black chips and higher.

If I am at the table at 4 in the morning when they usually come by to do their count of the bank, I might even say to the floor that "I have xxxx chips in my pocket."

I put larger chips in my pocket for security. Yes, I'll keep maybe five or ten black chips in my rail. But when I start getting $500s and $1000s they do not stay in my rail, they go in my pocket.

And of course when I color up, I will remove the chips in my pocket so they can do a proper count.

I don't think I have ever played craps in a casino where you were comped based on losses -- and you were comped based on average bets so putting chips in your pocket would have no effect on your rating.

A bigger problem is actually getting accurately rated for your bets.

Ratholing - sneaking chips off the table to deliberately deceive the dealer and the pit.

Not ratholing - putting chips in your pocket to get them off the table for various reasons such as security etc.

I do both. I rathole green chips and I pocket black chips. If the floor asks the dealer what happened to the black chips I always speak up and tell him. Better yet, I sometimes make a little production about it. I'll hold up a black or two when everyone is watching, put them in my pocket and say something about going into the vault.

When I color up or leave the table and am asked how many black I have I am truthful. They most likely already know anyway and never seem to consider that I have green chips that they know nothing about.

I do not rathole when playing heads up for obvious reasons.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I have never before heard anything about "rat-holing" being illegal or immoral or cheating.

No, and not fattening either.

>When I did put a large chip in my pocket I would hold it up so that the floorman would see what I was doing
> -- and he would nod. I did that because I know they keep a running count of black chips and higher.
Good for you. And if it wasn't the floorman then the Box or even the dealer. Its not much different than an employee rat holing a toke.... do it OPENLY is the rule the employees have to follow. Its a nice gesture when the players follow the same rule. You, as a player, don't have to rap the chip on the table edge first.

>If I am at the table at 4 in the morning when they usually come by to do their count of the bank,
>I might even say to the floor that "I have xxxx chips in my pocket."
LOL, He is liable to reply "Thank you, I know".

>I put larger chips in my pocket for security.
>I do it for security and a sort of enforced savings. Railbirds still exist and may filch chips as tables get active or crowded.

>And of course when I color up, I will remove the chips in my pocket so they can do a proper count.
Here, I'd remove most of them rather than all of them.

>I don't think I have ever played craps in a casino where you were comped based on losses....
Actually you have! All casinos comp based on ACTION. The money you put at risk is what they look at. Money in your bank account does not interest them, Money up in your room does not interest them. Only what you risked. IF you happen to have won OR LOST an extreme amount, your comps may get a little bit of a sweetener. Win really big and you get a little sweetener to make sure you bring your winnings back to them rather than the joint across the street. Its the same on the other side. If you happen to have lost really big or really fast, your comps get a little sweetener. Just to keep you happy while you are in town. Adjustments to the computer calculated theo do get made.

>A bigger problem is actually getting accurately rated for your bets.
True. Its often very busy for them too. Estimates of average bet can be "off" Actual time at table can be a bit "off" too. They have other duties, other customers and they do get distracted from time to time. If you are a nice guy they tend to round up, not down.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I have never before heard anything about "rat-holing" being illegal or immoral or cheating.

I agree...



I can think of multiple times at multiple casinos where I was lucky to be part of a great roll where I put $1,000 and once a $5,000 chip in my pocket. In fact, when I got the $5,000 chip as the dealer put it before me on a payout he said "put this in your pocket" which is exactly what I did.

I totally understand putting 1k or 5k chips in your pocket! I’m sure the pit understands it as well. In addition, I am positive even if you didn't show them what you were doing; they knew the chip of that size was in your pocket. What I was talking about is...... This is of course hypothetical only! Let’s say you go up to a craps table with 3k, as you win or lose over an hour session you are putting green and black chips in your pocket from time to time. At the end of your session, you color up for 2k. When you walk up to the room you have an additional 1,500 in your pocket give or take. True or false, immoral? Do you care? And the casino shows you as losing 1k not winning 500 or so. At the end of your trip, you show a 4k loss but really broke even or won a few thousand. Will the host be more motivated to give you more comps? Bottom line, are you stealing? Is this immoral? You won or lost your own money and didn't steal chips from anybody! Do you care? On the other hand, are you stealing from the casino at checkout when the host gives you more due to your losses? (read below about host and checkout)



When I did put a large chip in my pocket I would hold it up so that the floor man would see what I was doing -- and he would nod. I did that because I know they keep a running count of black chips and higher.

Very nice of you.



If I am at the table at 4 in the morning when they usually come by to do their count of the bank, I might even say to the floor that "I have xxxx chips in my pocket."

Again, very nice of you.



I put larger chips in my pocket for security. Yes, I'll keep maybe five or ten black chips in my rail. But when I start getting $500s and $1000s they do not stay in my rail, they go in my pocket.

Totally understand.



And of course when I color up, I will remove the chips in my pocket so they can do a proper count.

Very nice again. Right or wrong, I don't know.




I don't think I have ever played craps in a casino where you were comped based on losses -- and you were comped based on average bets so putting chips in your pocket would have no effect on your rating.

You are right and wrong on this one.. If you check out with a host, he or she defiantly considers losses. If you check out with VIP services or casino marketing you are right, they don't care if you lose. They just look at the avg and hours played.



A bigger problem is actually getting accurately rated for your bets.

THIS IS THE STRONGEST STATEMENT YOU HAVE MADE! Every time I play a session, I have to check my avg and time! I absolutely hate babysitting my own time and avg. This is their job but, if I don't, 80% of the time, it is wrong.

Everybody rat-holes if they are players that for some strange reason don’t want the casinos to know what they are winning, but don’t think you are pulling anything over on them, if you are just putting chips in your pocket. On a craps table the dealers are keeping track of what you have in the rack, the boxman is doing the same thing. They know that you are Rat-holing chips and the cage will call over to the table any time you go to cash in a significant amount of chips. Most of the time they will say to me how much do you have in your pocket, and I will always just tell them not that much, about XXX amount and the game is on, them trying to make sure that I didn’t walk with chips they can’t account for, and me trying to be very reasonable with the amount of chips in my pocket, if the table had a few players on it and everybody is cashing out at the same time, it sometimes makes it difficult for them to keep track of who walked with what. One of the biggest reasons for having chips in your pocket, is because I personally do not want other players coming to the table I'm playing on, nor do I want someone that might stick a gun in my face when I'm leaving a casino!

So when I do my cashing out of chips, I will never cash out everything at once, remember that gun in your face! If you go and have breakfast or lunch, then go back to the cage again, with an amount that will not get a phone call over to the table you can get away with what you are doing.
It’s a cat and mouse game, there are times that I will tell them what I have in my pocket, in a roundabout matter, by just saying I think I have about let’s say $300 in my pocket, then cash that amount in. There is no reason for anybody to do this cat and mouse game if you are just someone that plays a few times a year, you can’t win enough to make a difference, and you are just wasting everybody’s time by doing so. Now one of the reason for this game some players play with the casinos is very simple, you never want to get a tap on the shoulder telling you that they don't want your play anymore, and that is all there is to it. It has nothing to do with trying to get more comp's by looking like your a loser, they don't comp you on what you are losing anyway, it's all about theoretical loss per hour!

I never give any casino a card, it’s a big waste of time anymore to do so, I don’t want comps. Unless you are playing slots, they are not rating table games players that good any more. Now that is of course if you are not a high roller! What is a small time player going to get a comp buffet, if I can’t afford to buy dinner, then I shouldn’t be playing craps.
I don’t use stupid grocery store cards or anything else where they are getting information about me and my buying habits, so why in the world would anybody want the casinos to know everything about you? Yes there are a few grocery stores around the Vegas valley that don’t use the stupid cards, and you’re not getting ripped off if you don’t have one. One of the best grocery stores that I use is WinCo. If they ever open one where you live I think you would agree with me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinCo_Foods

There are a few different types of table games players, you have the weekend players, or the vacation players, and the convention players. Then you have the locals and the guys that play all the time. Out of that group, you have the recreational local players, or as I like to call them the social players that are in the casinos all the time, because they have nothing better to do. These guys are just wasting their time if they are hiding any chips.

Now the guys that play all the time and move their game around, might be counters or whatever, they hit and run and hide what they are doing, as much as they can. They don’t overstay their welcome, nor do they try to make a killing every time they hit a casino. The can cash out small amounts of chips whenever they want to, and will carry chips around with them, so if they are playing craps never have to do a buy-in when there is a good roll happening, they just pull chips out of their pocket and place their bets.

Basically any more, if you’re a table games player, comps suck, if you only play table games a few times a year, and feel the need to try to get comp’s by all means, get your card and let the casinos know everything about you, but don’t play silly game with them, as to how much you by some strange miracle won. Do your research about comp’s and get the real story on them if you’re a table game player, anymore you will be shocked at how they rate you. Now for the slot players, get that players card, if you want the comp’s, most guys that play video poker will tell you that without the players card and the comp’s they would be losers overall, they need those comp’s and promotion the casinos give out to stay ahead!

Check out what they said on this radio show. There is two spots that you should pay close attention to on this show. One is at 3:35 and the other at 15:16

http://www.bobdancer.com/mp3/gwae110713.mp3?CFID=114941444&CFTOKEN=76364817

Most players are so misinformed about comp’s that they over stay their play trying to get a stupid comp, that they would have been better off just paying for themselves!

Quote: superrick

Most players are so misinformed about comp’s that they over stay their play trying to get a stupid comp, that they would have been better off just paying for themselves!

I agree. I would rather pay $900 for the corner suite than risk tens of thousands trying to get it comp'd. That said, I don't mind taking the free room on the 4th floor by the elevators with the fantastic view of the HVAC duct-work for the paltry amount of play I do give them. Free is free.

Getting back to the original post. Whether it works or not, ratholing is by definition an attempt to deceive. I wouldn't do it. I'm certain that unless you're a whale, winning or losing will get you the same comps with the same amount at risk.