Coupon Play, is it costing you money?

Coupon Play is it costing you money?

I’ve read some of what I would call very stupid things about anybody using coupons if they are a local in any casino destinations around the world. To start with I never give any casino a card when I’m playing craps, and yes there is a problem with that statement, there are some casinos that I play in that know me from when I was one of those players that thought I was getting something for nothing.

Back then I didn’t live in Vegas, we came out here three to four times a year, and you used to get some good comps, but that has all changed if you are a table games player, playing craps they don’t give you squat unless you’re a big time loser, or a very high roller. From some of my high rolling buddies, they even cut back on the comps they give them.

If you’re a player of any casinos game you should know how they run them and why they give out these coupons. The first thing I tell other players is that they need to read anything they can get their hands on that is about casino management.

If you don’t read about casino marketing, you as a player have no idea of why you are getting those coupons or comps, which you get in the mail. There is only one reason why you are getting those free bets or match play coupons, and they have nothing to do with what some so-called experts are pushing as a good way to win at whatever game you play in a casino.
I’m going to use a few quotes from the book Casino Operations Management by Jim Kilby, and Jim Fox, so let’s look at what they had to say about, The cost of match plays and nonnegotiable starting on page 231.

Quote:

Over the last few years, the use of match play and no nonnegotiable chips in marketing to table games players have grown enormously in many casinos in NV and throughout the world. When first introduced, match play coupons were typically given in $1 and $2 face values and only to customers that willing to cash their paychecks in the casinos. At that time match play coupons were referred to as game starts.

Well we all know about inflation, and now these coupons are giving out at a much higher rate to get any player to come into their casinos.
So we now know that any coupon that you get in the mail only has one reason as to why they give them to you. They want you to start gambling!
Now let’s look at page 232 where they are writing about the worth of these coupons, and what they have to say about them. Now the example they have is wrong now days, but her goes what they wrote.

Quote:

The best way to understand how match play or nonnegotiables work is to ask “how much would the player have to bet in order to create the same effect? The way they have their example is now wrong in most casinos. It used to bet that if you have a match play coupon they would pay you, let’s say you had a $5 coupon and you put it on the pass line and rolled a come-out seven, you would have walked with $15.

In some casinos you’re match play would have stayed up, if you won the bet. I don’t know of any casino that now does that, if you have one please tell everybody where it is! Now days they will only pay you $10 that’s $5 each for you pass-line bet and $5 for your match play bet, then they pick up you’re coupon never to be seen again.
So without quoting everything they wrote, they tell the readers that your $5 bet is only worth $2.50 cents, because you had to bet your $5 to play your match play bet!

I’m not getting into the so-called free bets that players get because we now know why the casinos give them to any player, and that is to get you into the casinos!
So I need to show everybody how stupid these coupons are to use, it didn’t take me to long to find a prime example of what these coupons do when place in a so-called expert on the game of craps, now to be fair, I could have found an example of ahigh winning when he used his so-called free bet or match play coupon.

No,.. I'm not picking on you aHigh, I just needed an example of why I don't use free play or match play coupons.
I would never drive across town to play a $5 coupon, but with that said if one of the casinos do send be some coupons that I made a major mistake in giving them my information about myself for some stupid comps years ago when I knew no better, I will use the coupon, but most of the time they just get thrown out!

Anybody, that plays in casinos, and they play a lot should have any book they can get on casino management, the ology would be a footballs team using play video of the other team they were playing, or the boxer looking at video, to see what his opponents weak spots were. Here is a link to some good books and some bad ones on playing craps and casino management!

http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum41.php&sid=94fd6871ee9602a55b0accf1b22f413b

Quote: superrick

In some casinos you’re match play would have stayed up, if you won the bet. I don’t know of any casino that now does that, if you have one please tell everybody where it is! Now days they will only pay you $10 that’s $5 each for you pass-line bet and $5 for your match play bet, then they pick up you’re coupon never to be seen again.
So without quoting everything they wrote, they tell the readers that your $5 bet is only worth $2.50 cents, because you had to bet your $5 to play your match play bet!

I’m not getting into the so-called free bets that players get because we now know why the casinos give them to any player, and that is to get you into the casinos!
So I need to show everybody how stupid these coupons are to use, it didn’t take me to long to find a prime example of what these coupons do when place in a so-called expert on the game of craps, now to be fair, I could have found an example of ahigh winning when he used his so-called free bet or match play coupon.

The Orleans turned my g/f's $10 Matchplay coupon into real money when she won the hand last month letting her walk away with a full $20 of winnings AND the value of her coupon ($40 in chips total with only $10 being her money). But the way I read the coupon before it was given, I figured the dealer was in error and I kept my mouth shut. And it was her first live hand of blackjack ever, so she was fairly excited about it.

Generally speaking though, the coupon is often forfeited regardless of result, making it only worth about half its face value.

Let me make sure I understand this:

They market to players and send them promotional materials in order to get them to go to the casino and gamble?

I think I'd need to see some hard numbers, are the writers of this article sure about this?

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You can't cash out free slot play if you hit a nice result; you still have to play it out. I don't understand the complaint. The winnings, if any, are free to keep. But the coupon is just a free shot at a win, not actual money.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I've never been offered anything from a casino before stepping into one.

I haven't either, but I have read some people who have because of things like hosts moving casinos.

OP you make no sense to me. Unless you are doing an AP type thing where you don't want them to know you then you are losing a ton of money by not having a card. Sure, I wouldn't drive across town to cash in a $5 coupon. if I had a handful of coupons and I was going to play somewhere, I may pick the place that gave me the most money. If you are going to play at the casino and you have a match play, it just seems silly to not use one.

I'm not sure what he is trying to say here. Obviously we know why the casinos send match-plays, free bets, free-play and have promotions. I am surprised someone needed to research this.
Most people don't drive to a casino just for 1 $5 match-play 74. Smart players can get good advantage knowing how a particular casinos marketing system works. No need to be a high roller or a big loser. When you use Ahigh as an example he is not an AP. So that was a bad example. I will take a 1000 match play any day of the week. Win or lose you have a huge advantage. IE: see the wizards tag line.

Quote: Mosca

You can't cash out free slot play if you hit a nice result; you still have to play it out. I don't understand the complaint. The winnings, if any, are free to keep. But the coupon is just a free shot at a win, not actual money.

Free play is worth 95% of the face value give or take what game you play. I not sure why you say you must hit a nice result. Unless you sit and play way more then you should be in order to liquidate it, even a bad run should net you 75%. If not your doing something wrong.

edit..

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I've never been offered anything from a casino before stepping into one.

Not sure where you live. Vegas sends out mass mailers to everyone quite a bit. Tring is correct hosts move casinos and then send things. Casinos buy marketing lists as well.

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Quote: AxelWolf

Free play is worth 95% of the face value give or take what game you play. I not sure why you say you must hit a nice result. Unless you sit and play way more then you should be in order to liquidate it, even a bad run should net you 75%. If not your doing something wrong.

I didn't mean anything extra by saying "nice result", only that it has to be played whether it wins, loses, breaks even, pays back 95%, or whatever. We agree completely.

Quote: superrick

No,.. I'm not picking on you aHigh

First off, it's Ahigh, not aHigh.

Secondly, even if you're not picking on me (which frankly I don't even care) what you are doing is copying content from my website and posting it on this website without my permission.



I'm proud to have a $100 coupon. I got it from having the balls to bet $100 pass line bets with max odds on my first bet approaching the table.

I had a chance to win, and I lost. So what? You would have not given them your card and passed the chance to have some coupons?

Sounds like a really bad idea to me, but so does betting a $1 crap check on a $5 pass line. We're just different, the two of us, we are.

Here's what I think: I think if you lost like this, you wouldn't tell anybody it happened. It isn't easy telling the truth about this game. But maybe you should try once in a while.

Here's some truth: none of this money did I win at the craps tables! But it is my money.

COME ON DICE! UHHHHHHH!



I'm not crying, home boy.



Maybe next time stick with "not picking on" the Mad Professor.

Quote: Ahigh

First off, it's Ahigh, not aHigh.

Secondly, even if you're not picking on me (which frankly I don't even care) what you are doing is copying content from my website and posting it on this website without my permission.



I'm proud to have a $100 coupon. I got it from having the balls to bet $100 pass line bets with max odds on my first bet approaching the table.

I had a chance to win, and I lost. So what? You would have not given them your card and passed the chance to have some coupons?

Sounds like a really bad idea to me, but so does betting a $1 crap check on a $5 pass line. We're just different, the two of us, we are.

Here's what I think: I think if you lost like this, you wouldn't tell anybody it happened. It isn't easy telling the truth about this game. But maybe you should try once in a while.

Here's some truth: none of this money did I win at the craps tables! But it is my money.

COME ON DICE! UHHHHHHH!

I'm not crying, home boy.



Maybe next time stick with "not picking on" the Mad Professor.

Correcting him for not capitalizing your name is only going to get people to follow suit. It almost seems arrogant, almost seems like a teacher admonishing a student for not calling him by his last name.

So what if you won or lost, GR8 coupon. How often do you get one? approximately how much action is needed to generate one? I could suddenly become a craps player.

superrick is way off base with his theory about using a card while playing craps, unless you hate value. This just shows hes not an AP. You never know what they will send you or why. I have had situations where they accidentally put me on the wrong high roller list and sent me things that were outrageously good. There have been occasions the casinos misprinted coupons that they honored. I made one small play at a casino years ago and they still send me awesome free slot tourneys often, free play and free meals.

To me it would be like not using a 25% off coupon you had in your pocket to buy something you were going to buy anyways.

Hell I guess its better he doesn't take advantage of casino perks, more for people who do.

@ Axelwolf,

That's funny about the mistakes.

We used to play at Mesquite. Back when the Oasis was open. That's when my craps career really got started. I didn't know anything about comps.

Somehow, they confused something and gave us like double platinum cards for awhile. The perks were great. Suites, money up front, there 3-4 star restaurant drinks anything they could do. The band Chicago played we went, I used to play horn so I really liked that. Monster party on New years, lots of perks. Gifts, heck I'm still using the roller luggage and a back pack they game me.

Anyway not knowing, I was and am a red chip player and the amount of comps they were giving us I was amazed. I was thinking heck at this price I can't afford not to gamble.

When they figured it out after about 3 months, you can't imagine the horror on their faces when they came running across the casino floor and demanded we turn in the platinum cards. I begrudgingly gave up mine and their smiles disappeared and were replaced with the usual contempt given red chip crap players.

It appears [and rightly so] the level of perks are directly related to bet size. I finally got talked into a card at Laughlin where I now play and as I figured, they usually just send adds and junk mail to my address. The casino there with the big "R" ripped my wife off on her points [long story] so I don't use my card there.

Low level play is rewarded in kind. The slots are where the points add up as we all know. It's a lot cheaper for me to buy everything I want there as opposed to my wife playing slots, non ap attempted and generate lots and lots of points. Hundred dollar glasses of wine and fifty dollar waters. lol

I hope I run into a mixup especially from Asian marketing with my last name..... That'll be the day.

Ive never had a match play coupon for craps but I certainly get coupons for use as a substitute for chips (even bets only).
But if I had a match play, and could use it to substitute for cash out of my pocket, I would certainly use it.
I always play with a players card and I value any kind of perk I can get.

I have documented all of my play, in general, that led to these coupons. If you are curious what it takes to earn coupons playing craps, you can read my threads and possibly figure it out.

Right now I get:

Kiosk Coupons:
$25 free bets each week at Silverton ($100 total)
$25 free bets each few days at Sam's Town ($150 total)
$25 free bets each few days at Gold Coast ($150 total)
$15 free bets each week at The Orleans ($90 total)
$5 match play each week at Jerry's Nugget ($25 total)

The photographed coupon above, I got three of them for $100 each at The Orleans in addition to my regular kiosk coupons
I got similar $50 coupons for Gold Coast in addition to the $25 each week
I also got five $10 free bet coupons each week that were printed cut-out at Gold Coast

Totals:
Silverton: $100
Sam's Town: $150
Gold Coast: $350
The Orleans: $390
Jerry's Nugget: $25
=============
$1015 free coupons this month

I have received about $150 worth of free food this past four weeks at Gold Coast
I have received about $250 worth of free food at Silverton
I have received about $100 worth of free food at Sam's Town
I have received about $120 worth of free food at The Orleans
I have received about $50 worth of free food at Jerry's Nugget
========================================
Total: $670 worth of free food this month

Currently I am getting no coupons from Stations Casinos except Fiesta where I am 86'd. But I recently did black chip betting at Boulder Station and took about $500 from them. So I would not be surprised to see coupons from them asking me to come back. I have no plans to go back without seeing the coupons. I expect it will take two months before they realize I'm not coming back. That's what happened with The Orleans.

Anything free is bettor than nothing.

Quote: Mission146

Let me make sure I understand this:

They market to players and send them promotional materials in order to get them to go to the casino and gamble?

I think I'd need to see some hard numbers, are the writers of this article sure about this?

WHOA! THIS IS GROUNDBREAKING STUFF!

Pretty sure superrick is just trying to get people to his forum (assuming that link at the end of the post is his forum). Probably should be warned by the mods for that.

Listen, casinos give you coupons to get you into the door. Know what the coupons are worth, or don't and just have fun with them.

A match play or free play coupon is generally worth just under 50% of face value for an even-money bet. A non-neg chip is generally worth just under 100% of its face value (again for an even bet). For best results, try to play these on a single number in roulette. Usually they won't let you.

See the Wizard's recap here.

Quote:

AcesAndEights
WHOA! THIS IS GROUNDBREAKING STUFF!

Pretty sure superrick is just trying to get people to his forum (assuming that link at the end of the post is his forum). Probably should be warned by the mods for that.

Sorry there AcesAndEights there has been plenty of things written about coupon play, but not about what the casinos are doing when they put those coupons in the mail. Most players don't even know about them unless they live were there is casinos.

I have a old saying if someone is trying to give me something and it's supposed to be free I don't want it! You can cash your pay check in all major local casinos, most people with low paying jobs don't have bank accounts, so the casinos cash them for free. Did I just say free again, well there are very few of them will just walk out of the casinos, and most will play some type of game. Some of them will not make it home with anything left of their pay check.

Then you have the residents that the casinos send their free junk coupons to, and lets not forget the free bets and match play! What I see all the time is players coming to the craps tables with a so-called free bet, that will lose their bet, then dig into their pocket, and lose a bunch of their money.

A good example was Ahigh, now of course he had all intentions of winning his free bet, but it ended up costing him $900, I'm sure that there are times that he wins when he does use them, but that one loss will take a while for him to get back. Now the point that I'm trying to make is that he never would have been in that casino probably if it wasn't for that coupon.

I was at the Fiesta Casino in Henderson, not to long ago and after dinner, stop to see if I knew anybody on the craps table and to see if they made any changes to their table. Well a guy walks up to the table, and all the dealers knew him, and was asking him where he had been they said they didn't see him for over 6 months. He proudly pulled out a coupon, and told the dealers the reason he hadn't come in there in 6 months was no coupons. He then buys in for $750 and I'm waiting to see a $100 coupon or more, I got the shock of my life, when it hit the table! The coupon turned out to be for $15, then I stood there and watch him lose his $750 buy-in.

I see this kind of behavior all the time, players just don't know how to walk away, once they start playing. Even the players that walk away after losing their free bet at the tables, will stop and put money in a slot machine trying to win some money.

Players don't even think about what that free bet is going to cost them, besides the cost of someone driving across town for some of these free bets just in gas alone most times they are losers before they even get to the casino, because of the cost of their gas!

It used to be that when you got one of these coupons you could place it anywhere, and I would place one on a hard eight if I was rolling them. Ahigh would really make out if they still did that with all those hard eights he hits!

Those days are gone with the wind, they now only let you make a even money bet, table games players get squat for their table action. Some of the guys wife’s will get free play on the slots, that can be turned into a good win for them, again, if they know when to walk, but the trick that most casinos are using is that you have to play off your free play before you can cash out of the slot machine!
Think before you go running off to a casino because they sent you a $5 free bet is all I'm trying to get table games players to see, that they can cost you a lot more then you thought.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I've never been offered anything from a casino before stepping into one.

I have, twice. Once the Borgata sent me $100 free play before they opened. And when the Wynn opened, they sent me 3 free nights anytime in the first 3 months of business. I was able to use the Borgata, couldn't make the Wynn. No idea how either knew where to find me. The Borgata made me a black card on the first day based on my Diamond card (I was in AC opening weekend and booked there). But can't imagine Harrah's sold them my name.

It just occurred to me; in the early years, I was a Golden Nugget customer several times. Maybe Steve Wynn tracked me down from when he owned it; this was before the Bellagio or anything like it came.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

There are casinos that will let you bet match plays and free bets on ANY games and on ANY bets.

Please tell Ahigh and myself where you can find one of them in Las Vegas, I'm sure Ahigh could use his free bet on the hard eights and I would do the same!

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The one I know of is not in Vegas. You guys should be smart enough to play the coupon then leave win or lose.

Well that is what some of us do!