Buy the field
I was just wondering if anybody else had thoughts on this bet. The nice thing is that you could just use the existing "buy" lammers or offer "automatic buys" if you wanted. But it's a simple way to get big money from new players without having to rip them off for not understanding the game yet. Big winners are often repeat customers, and you would have a much better chance to win big with $70 for $25 on the aces in the field on a nice promotion.
Quote: teddysNice idea. Will never happen. Casinos have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever changed a bet from less favorable to a player to more favorable to a player.
Most people don't want to bet a green chip anyway. It could work very well at a place like a $3 table where they have a hard time getting players (EG: locals and fleas) to bet bigger. You still making just as much money ($5) when a $25 chip hits the aces as a nickel chip. So it's not an operational loss. And if they go to extremely large bets, the casino could make some serious money from folks who don't understand that the field usually pays even money for a 44.4% chance to win.
Quote: AhighI had the idea to allow players to BUY the field. The idea is that the 12 would still pay triple and the 2 would pay $55,$60,$65, or $70 per $25 depending on the house instead of $50. I think this simple change would allow big gamblers to play the game of craps without having to understand all the details with odds and other complicated rules. You could even offer this bet only during specific times when you are wanting to get more interest in the table.
I was just wondering if anybody else had thoughts on this bet. The nice thing is that you could just use the existing "buy" lammers or offer "automatic buys" if you wanted. But it's a simple way to get big money from new players without having to rip them off for not understanding the game yet. Big winners are often repeat customers, and you would have a much better chance to win big with $70 for $25 on the aces in the field on a nice promotion.
I think it would be a great promotional idea, even better is a, "Happy Hour," with a Field tripling both for a 0% House Edge.
The Santa Ana Star has such a happy hour, only it's not an hour, it's always. I don't believe thev'ye gone bankrupt!
In any case, with a standard HE on a Double/Triple Field of 2.7778%, you're looking at an increase to expected value of:
1/36 * .2 = .00555555 for every $5 per $25 bet or $1 per $5 bet that you increase the payout over double.
$25 to pay $55 becomes: 2.22% HE
$25 to pay $60 becomes: 1.67% HE
$25 to pay $65 becomes: 1.11% HE
$25 to pay $70 becomes: .5556% HE
$25 to pay $75 = 0
I think the, "Buy," should definitely be automatic on any Field Bet if it is taking place at the appropriate time, and player should be strongly encouraged to bet in multiples of $5.00, anything else would be rounded down to the nearest dollar.
It seems like anything between $55-$65, Snake Eyes pays 2.2-2.6 is enough juice for a single-roll proposition, could be that way all the time, but is especially sufficent for something that just goes on a promotional basis.
Great idea! I don't know that it does anything to foster proper Craps play, as many newbies might be inclined just to play the Field and not worry about anything else, but it should get the hardcore Craps bettors in the door, especially those who would bet the Field to begin with.
Quote: Mission146Great idea! I don't know that it does anything to foster proper Craps play, as many newbies might be inclined just to play the Field and not worry about anything else, but it should get the hardcore Craps bettors in the door, especially those who would bet the Field to begin with.
It's still 0.55% edge PER ROLL and the house makes more money on a $25 field bet per roll than a $25 pass line, forget about the odds even. IE: it is STILL a money-maker for the house. I watch a lot of craps action, and when the players are at the table, the field is rarely touched. ESPECIALLY at places like Casino Royale where they pay double on the 12(!!!) alongside 20x odds.
The whole idea is not to change the rules until you get to $25. You could even require that the chip be a green chip(!) .. and if you pay double on the 12, that's just so you can encourage folks to get to the buy-level. Sort of like the 4 and 10. They are sucker bets at $5 and awesome bets at $25 if you know what you're doing.
The field would still not be as cheap per roll as the four and ten, but the action would be much faster and more exciting without all the complicated rules.
I think there are just too many folks scared off by the complicated rules and unwilling to learn odds and how to avoid a put bet and end up losing and quitting (IE: lifetime quitting).
First One's Free Hardways
Rules:
1.) The time coupons can be redeemed is at the casino's discretion.
2.) Coupons will be targeted via E-Mail or Mail to customers who predominantly play Table Games, don't encourage slots players to switch to Tables.
3.) Coupon must be presented with Player's Club Card, bet must be made at time coupon is presented and will be placed on top of coupon.
4.) The bet applies to the first Hardway bet only, regardless of the result, the coupon will be given back to the House.
5.) Maximum bet of $25.
6.) May be bet on any one Hardway bet.
Player Edge- Hard 6 or Hard 8: ($25 bet)
Wins if:
(1/11) + (10/11 * 1/11) = 0.17355371900826447
Loses if:
(10/11 * 10/11) = 0.8264462809917354
Expected Return:
(225 * 0.17355371900826447) - (25 * 0.8264462809917354) = 18.38842975206612
Player Edge:
18.38842975206612/25 = 0.7355371900826448 = 73.6%
Player Edge-Hard 4 or Hard 10 ($25 bet)
Wins if:
(1/9) + (8/9 * 1/9) = 0.20987654320987653
Loses if:
(8/9 * 8/9) = 0.7901234567901234
Expected Return:
(175 * 0.20987654320987653) - (25 * 0.7901234567901234) = 16.975308641975306
Player Edge:
16.975308641975306/25 = 0.6790123456790122 = 67.9%
Selling Points
1.) It's more fun than a Match Play, and it may get the player making a bet he wouldn't usually make because of the House Edge, but he gets the entertainment value of getting to do that.
2.) It might get the player in the habit of making a bet with a higher House Edge.
3.) It's actually relatively cheap, the First One's Free Hardway has a lower Expected Return than a $20 Match Play on most bets on the table. The bets with a lower Expected Return on a $20 Match Play are Any Seven, Any Crap, Hardways and Hops (Depending on Paytable). If I'm not mistaken, most places will only let you match a Line bet, anyway. Not sure why that is supposed to make sense, but, oh well.
Quote: AhighIt's still 0.55% edge PER ROLL and the house makes more money on a $25 field bet per roll than a $25 pass line, forget about the odds even. IE: it is STILL a money-maker for the house. I watch a lot of craps action, and when the players are at the table, the field is rarely touched. ESPECIALLY at places like Casino Royale where they pay double on the 12(!!!) alongside 20x odds.
I certainly agree with you, the only time I ever see someone betting the Field is if they are running a Martingale on it, which I think might be once in my entire life. Every once in awhile, you'll see someone throw a Red at it if the Field numbers have been hitting a ton, but that's about it.
Quote:The whole idea is not to change the rules until you get to $25. You could even require that the chip be a green chip(!) .. and if you pay double on the 12, that's just so you can encourage folks to get to the buy-level. Sort of like the 4 and 10. They are sucker bets at $5 and awesome bets at $25 if you know what you're doing.
The field would still not be as cheap per roll as the four and ten, but the action would be much faster and more exciting without all the complicated rules.
I think there are just too many folks scared off by the complicated rules and unwilling to learn odds and how to avoid a put bet and end up losing and quitting (IE: lifetime quitting).
I definitely understand your perspective, and I could also (sort of) understand capping it, but why not just make it the Table Minimum? $5 to pay $14 with a HE on the Field of .555556%, nothing wrong with that.
You've already mentioned the lower edge per roll on the Pass Line, to begin with, so why not just let them Field Bet for whatever the Table Minimum is? If the main goal is to entice new players, in my experience, people who are just learning have tended to shy away from chucking Green out there...especially when they don't have to.
Quote: teddysNice idea. Will never happen. Casinos have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever changed a bet from less favorable to a player to more favorable to a player.
Ted, this isn't true. We've done a LOT of work redesigning side bets for many games, reducing the HE to make side bets more appealing, and had submitted them for approval and got them live.
The new field bet would never catch on, as there is little wrong with the current field bet, and as a public domain game, casinos would tweak the field bet HE by internally by themselves, and without making it a buy bet.
Quote: Paigowdanthere is little wrong with the current field bet
I disagree. The edge per roll in the field is 1/6th the place bet on the six and eight. The six and eight, you are implying, don't get played more than 6 times as often. Or am I misunderstanding your position on the field bet? If the house wants to make more money, they have to have more people taking bets that they don't hear are sucker bets. I will tell any new player at the table, as will anyone who cares to help, not to bet the field.
When it gets to the point where you're telling a new player, "YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG" I would suggest that the bet is BROKEN. Going double on the aces is the wrong way to fix it in my opinion. You need a self-service bet that doesn't suck that only lasts one roll.
Quote: AhighYeah, it would work to help players turn a nickel into some real wins without knowing anything. So that's the question I guess. The finger snappers might have a chance or stay too long is the short answer why not. I just think it would be more exciting if you forced the players to bet $25 to get the good deal, plus the casinos would be more willing to accept the new bet if they don't have any exposure to the low-denomination players.
What about the, "First One's Free," thing. It would certainly be based on the player's ADT that they are showing the casino, so it could be $5, $10, $25, or whatever you want. I don't know who a finger-snapper is, so I'm perfectly fine with him having a chance, what's the problem with him having a chance?
Quote: Mission146What about the, "First One's Free," thing. It would certainly be based on the player's ADT that they are showing the casino, so it could be $5, $10, $25, or whatever you want. I don't know who a finger-snapper is, so I'm perfectly fine with him having a chance, what's the problem with him having a chance?
The finger snapper is a culture of craps player that typically says, "COME ON DICE" while the dice are in the air. They grunt, "UHHHHH" as the dice hit the felt, and after that, they snap their fingers. I love playing craps with finger snappers. They can be found at Jerry's Nugget, Lucky Club, and less frequently at other casinos.
When you are a true finger snapper, your favorite bets are the hi-lo, the field, and your favorite outcome is the twelve.
And when you say twelve, it's two syllables. TWAY-ELVE is how you say it.
I am a finger snapper myself sometimes, (except the betting style).
COME ON DICE! UHHHHH! <SNAP> WHERE DA TWAY-ELVE AT?
Quote: AhighThe finger snapper is a culture of craps player that typically says, "COME ON DICE" while the dice are in the air. They grunt, "UHHHHH" as the dice hit the felt, and after that, they snap their fingers. I love playing craps with finger snappers. They can be found at Jerry's Nugget, Lucky Club, and less frequently at other casinos.
When you are a true finger snapper, your favorite bets are the hi-lo, the field, and your favorite outcome is the twelve.
And when you say twelve, it's two syllables. TWAY-ELVE is how you say it.
I am a finger snapper myself sometimes, (except the betting style).
COME ON DICE! UHHHHH! <SNAP> WHERE DA TWAY-ELVE AT?
Awesome!!!
I doubt if I will have much time for Craps on my trip, and possibly none at all. If I do, it will either be at The D, where I'm staying, or I might play a little Craps at the El Cortez. I may well not have any time at all for Craps, though.
If I'm ever in Vegas again, however, I will find these finger-snappers, and I will play Craps with them. I most prefer a completely empty Table, but second to that is a completely full and lively one!
Quote: Mission146What about the, "First One's Free," thing. It would certainly be based on the player's ADT that they are showing the casino, so it could be $5, $10, $25, or whatever you want. I don't know who a finger-snapper is, so I'm perfectly fine with him having a chance, what's the problem with him having a chance?
could someone please explain > What about the, "First One's Free," thing <
thanks
Quote: sevencould someone please explain > What about the, "First One's Free," thing <
thanks
Please see my post on Page 1, it was a promo idea I had.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYou could come up to Detroit and play with them all day long.
Dang, is this racist?
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Quote: Mission146Please see my post on Page 1, it was a promo idea I had.
I have gone through each posting but didnt see anything like "the first one is free" or do You mean the happy our with 3x/3x on 2 and 12?
Quote: MrVDang, is this racist?
It's not a race, it's a culture. Anyone can be a finger snapper, and it's great fun if you learn how to do it.
A really good finger snapper will parlay the tway-elve or the hi-lo and turn $1 to $5 into a grip-o-cash and exclaim, "PAY ME BITCH!!! PAY ME!!!!!"
You usually have to leave after that comment. LOL. Getting kicked out after getting paid might be extra points if you do a max hopper.
These guys don't learn to play on this website, and they get done really fast either way it goes.
Quote: sevenI have gone through each posting but didnt see anything like "the first one is free" or do You mean the happy our with 3x/3x on 2 and 12?
Quote:There are all kinds of things they can do to better market Craps:
First One's Free Hardways
Rules:
1.) The time coupons can be redeemed is at the casino's discretion.
2.) Coupons will be targeted via E-Mail or Mail to customers who predominantly play Table Games, don't encourage slots players to switch to Tables.
3.) Coupon must be presented with Player's Club Card, bet must be made at time coupon is presented and will be placed on top of coupon.
4.) The bet applies to the first Hardway bet only, regardless of the result, the coupon will be given back to the House.
5.) Maximum bet of $25.
6.) May be bet on any one Hardway bet.
Player Edge- Hard 6 or Hard 8: ($25 bet)
Wins if:
(1/11) + (10/11 * 1/11) = 0.17355371900826447
Loses if:
(10/11 * 10/11) = 0.8264462809917354
Expected Return:
(225 * 0.17355371900826447) - (25 * 0.8264462809917354) = 18.38842975206612
Player Edge:
18.38842975206612/25 = 0.7355371900826448 = 73.6%
Player Edge-Hard 4 or Hard 10 ($25 bet)
Wins if:
(1/9) + (8/9 * 1/9) = 0.20987654320987653
Loses if:
(8/9 * 8/9) = 0.7901234567901234
Expected Return:
(175 * 0.20987654320987653) - (25 * 0.7901234567901234) = 16.975308641975306
Player Edge:
16.975308641975306/25 = 0.6790123456790122 = 67.9%
Selling Points
1.) It's more fun than a Match Play, and it may get the player making a bet he wouldn't usually make because of the House Edge, but he gets the entertainment value of getting to do that.
2.) It might get the player in the habit of making a bet with a higher House Edge.
3.) It's actually relatively cheap, the First One's Free Hardway has a lower Expected Return than a $20 Match Play on most bets on the table. The bets with a lower Expected Return on a $20 Match Play are Any Seven, Any Crap, Hardways and Hops (Depending on Paytable). If I'm not mistaken, most places will only let you match a Line bet, anyway. Not sure why that is supposed to make sense, but, oh well.
As a craps enthusiast it doesn't seem like it to me. I see fewer tables every year at least in Laughlin or Vegas.
I'm under the belief that casinos would be a lot happier to do away with the craps tables and the labor/security involved.
I get the feeling it's becoming more of a courtesy to have the game at all when they would prefer the popcorn crap machines or slots?
I'm sure I'm biased but it seems there are several ways to promote the game.
Quote: teddysNice idea. Will never happen. Casinos have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever changed a bet from less favorable to a player to more favorable to a player.
Sure they have, particularly if it was also more favorable to the casino for a different reason.
Switching to a single zero wheel has been done to increase over all action or attract high roller action.
Switching to 3x4x5x has been done in over half the joints in town. Its done for speed and simplicity for dealers and surveillance.
Monkeying around with Field Bets has been tried with some casinos adding some teaser exceptions to increase the action.
Many casinos went from 2x to 3x on one end of the field, some do both ends as promos. One sleepy manana place in the Land of Disenchantment did it but people still just yawn there and carry on as if nothing has changed.
One of the Casino Day Boats in Florida got hit by a team of dice sharps and yanked out the table but within two years re-introduced it part time and then upped it to full time simply to compete with the Indian casinos.Quote: petroglyph
I'm under the belief that casinos would be a lot happier to do away with the craps tables and the labor/security involved.
Quote: sevenI have gone through each posting but didnt see anything like "the first one is free" or do You mean the happy our with 3x/3x on 2 and 12?
I'm convinced now that Mr. Seven is just a sock-puppet for Mission [vbg]
Regarding your idea ... well, there are a lot of good ideas out there but the people who run casinos don't have the proper mind-set to try them IMO.
