Odd/even bets in craps

I've had this idea for years but am tired of letting it rattle around in my head, so I'm just going to throw it out there for anyone to steal. Somebody posted about a over/under 7 bet in the big 6/8 area of the table. My idea would also make good use of that space, with an odd/even bet. The probability of each is 50%. So, to give the house an edge I suggest paying 1 to 2 on a winning bet of 2, 3, or 12. Here are the return tables.

Odd bet

Event	Pays	Probability	Return
Odd -- 5 to 11	1	0.444444	0.444444
3	0.5	0.055556	0.027778
Even	-1	0.500000	-0.500000
Total		1.000000	-0.027778

Even bet

Event	Pays	Probability	Return
Even -- 4 to 10	1	0.444444	0.444444
2 or 12	0.5	0.055556	0.027778
Odd	-1	0.500000	-0.500000
Total		1.000000	-0.027778

What do you think of the idea?

Let the record show I posted this on Oct. 13, 2013.

Because I play EC's, I figured this out a couple years ago
also. I think I didn't take it seriously because it takes
a long time to resolve the bet.

deleted

another odd craps bet
That pay 1:2 is OK for Lay bets

a one roll bet with it.
$5 pays
$25 pays
even if it is made even
$26 pays $13
not a clean payoff. Think of the dealer that has to pay
5 of those bets on one winning roll.
Great for electronic Craps

here is another
you may know the inventor
Odd and Even

http://www.olympiangaming.com/odd-and-even/

Quote: 7craps

here is another
you may know the inventor
Odd and Even

http://www.olympiangaming.com/odd-and-even/

Oh, I didn't know Stacy already had the idea. Great minds think alike.

Quote: Wizard

Oh, I didn't know Stacy already had the idea. Great minds think alike.

How many rolls on average does this take before
it's resolved?

Quote: EvenBob

How many rolls on average does this take before
it's resolved?

1

Quote: Wizard

1

Is this true on a 3 felt table ?

Mike, Stacy has a patent on that same idea http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7377513.pdf which was filed for back in 2005, so you are 8 years too late! The game is approved in NV, not sure why it has not been picked up yet, it's a no brainer since as you know nobody plays the big 6/8 anyway.

Quote: Wizard

I've had this idea for years but am tired of letting it rattle around in my head, so I'm just going to throw it out there for anyone to steal.

Very generous of you, but if someone took it and made millions, I don't think you'd be too happy ;)

Quote: jon

The game is approved in NV,
not sure why it has not been picked up yet,
it's a no brainer since as you know nobody plays the big 6/8 anyway.

nobody?
It is played.
Most Craps players know who plays them.
not being a racist here. just stating a fact.
That is why many tables still have it.
I still see it on many tables across the US, except in AC.

With Odd and Even, IMO
a 4:5 payout on a 2,3 or 12
it becomes a messy payout for many amounts bet.
(except for those $25 unit bets, that would be an exception)

Not to mention mistakes that could be made with a payoff
that would be difficult for peek to see if it was paid correctly.
$15 pays $12
3 red chips gets 2 reds and 3 whites
or the players are dropping $3 to get $15
too messy. (I had boxmen that used that word a lot)
too much work to follow.

good for electronic craps
maybe Rapid Craps by shufflemaster.
Last time I looked they had the Big 6&8

Reminds me of the over/under 7 bet the CalNeva in Reno had years ago at 4:3
(I recall other houses had it too)
High rollers bet the crap out of it.
$100 pays, $200 pays
these were just messy messy bets to pay

I'd make the 2 and 3 push then you wouldn't have the weird payoff. Bigger edge, but that's what they want, right? It's a bet for Field bet players and newbies anyway.

Quote: Wizard

...this idea...paying 1 to 2 on a winning bet...

There was some discussion of this here while discussing HE=0 bets (charging 1% commission) vs low HE ideas.

Quote: charliepatrick

...it's easier to have a game which was even money but there's about 1% chance, ie you win under specific conditions, where you don't get paid [so much] - this is where the Pai Gow and Punto 2000 variants come from. Sadly with one roll of two-dice there's only 36 possible outcomes, so unless you're paying 1/2 or 4/5 (e.g. low 1-1 pays 1/2), it's difficult!

Quote: Wizard

1

This is different than the one I came up with, that
took 3-5 rolls to resolve.

Quote: EvenBob

This is different than the one I came up with, that took 3-5 rolls to resolve.

Mine resolves every roll, like the field yet.

Come to think of it, I should have answered with 0^0 or -e^πi.

0^0 of your better ideas; too bad ME has it ahead of you.

Quote: 7craps

Reminds me of the over/under 7 bet the CalNeva in Reno had years ago at 4:3
(I recall other houses had it too)
High rollers bet the crap out of it.
$100 pays, $200 pays
these were just messy messy bets to pay

how did this bet work? i was just thinking of an O/U 7bet.

id do.

Over:
Lose - 7,6,5,4,3,2
Win 1x - 8,9,10,11
Win 5x - 12

Under:
Lose - 7,8,9,10,11,12
Win 1x - 6,5,4,3
Win 5x - 2

Hmmm, these ideas seem pretty good in general. But I'd like to toss this into the ring...
Odd/Even is really more of a field bet prop than anything. Consider the following Field;
2-3-5-9-11-12(2:1) with a 7 Push. (Bet against 4-6-8-10)
The location appears to be natural considering Field/Don't Pass/Pass.
Field push 7, Don'tPass Loses, and Pass wins.

Along this concept the "4 Rolls No 7" could be implemented in the Big 6/8 area (Come-out roll is ON)

If it seems stale consider a version where for $4 you place this bet, and press $1 or Take Down
starting with Roll #5 until the bet is $10. From there on, its Play or Take. Shooter makes it to 24 rolls, cashout $750 + bet.
Its a question of knowing when to get out... leave it out there too long and it loses. Remove it early and miss an opportunity.

Quote: rudeboyoi

how did this bet work? i was just thinking of an O/U 7bet.

id do.

Over:
Lose - 7,6,5,4,3,2
Win 1x - 8,9,10,11
Win 5x - 12

Under:
Lose - 7,8,9,10,11,12
Win 1x - 6,5,4,3
Win 5x - 2

This setup aims at HE = -1/36

High: 7-6-5-4-3-2 Lose
8-9-10 pay 1:1
11 pays 2:1
12 pays 4:1

Low: 7-8-9-10-11-12 Lose
6-5-4 pay 1:1
3 pays 2:1
2 pays 4:1

Quote: Wizard

Oh, I didn't know Stacy already had the idea. Great minds think alike.

That said, I'm not in Vegas. If you want to contact your TGD friends and get a few installs, I'd make it worth your while.

Quote: cclub79

I'd make the 2 and 3 push then you wouldn't have the weird payoff. Bigger edge, but that's what they want, right? It's a bet for Field bet players and newbies anyway.

The edge is too strong with a push on the 2/12 or 3. A 4-to-5 payout on Odd Craps or Even Craps, with 1-to-1 for every other winner, yields a 1.11% edge. That's the lowest edge on the table, but because it resolves every roll the bet still has high profit potential. That low edge, and the fact it wins exactly 50% of the time, makes it ideal for systems players.

Also, I don't think the short-pays are a meaningfully messy (procedurally difficult) payout. The short pays only happen 1/18 of the time, for starters, and paying 4-to-5 is equivalently difficult to paying 9-to-5, the pay on the place 4 or 10. Paying 19-to-20 is more difficult and that's the pay for a bought 4 or 10 if the winner doesn't throw in the vig. I'd expect frequent Odd or Even players to get into the habit of exchanging the short amount for a full even money pay, e.g., throwing in a white to receive a red chip.

My biggest concern with the operation of this bet (these bets) is the issue of cheating via past posting. Because a losing outcome for ODD is a winner for EVENI don't think the two wagering areas should be adjacent, for example, at least on a felt table. So if the ODD bet is on the hook where Big 6/8 used to be, the EVEN bet should be somewhere else -- for example, using two areas, one next to Don't Come and another next to the Field and prop box. That way someone can't slide a losing bet into a winning area with a forearm during a busy session.

But the Odd and Even Craps bets should be an ideal introduction to the game for new players, and that's sorely needed right now given the changing demographic of table games players. It will be sad if, 40 years from now, casinos aren't using dice at all. Odd and Even both win 50% of the time, have a 1.11% edge that won't crush a player over a few hours at the table, and are immediately intuitive to everyone. Odd and Even have been part of roulette for hundreds of years. I think it's time they get added to craps tables.

Quote: MathExtremist

Odd and Even have been part of roulette for hundreds of years. I think it's time they get added to craps tables.

that is exactly what I always thought, to have Passe/Manque or Pair/Impair on a craps layout with much lower HE than the double zero wheel.

"Reminds me of the over/under 7 bet the CalNeva in Reno had years ago at 4:3"

Quote: rudeboyoi

how did this bet work? i was just thinking of an O/U 7bet.

id do.

Over:
Lose - 7,6,5,4,3,2
Win 1x - 8,9,10,11
Win 5x - 12

Under:
Lose - 7,8,9,10,11,12
Win 1x - 6,5,4,3
Win 5x - 2

The Crapless Craps tables in Vegas has it now IIRC, but it is an even money bet.
over wins on 8+ etc
both lose on a 7

In Reno, two long boxes between the Field and Come
The table then was a $3 min so $3 paid $4
until the big bets came in.
Saw many progressions from $50 to $100 to $200
slowed the game down too, but was fun to watch
with the non 3 unit bets

The box would ask the $5 players to add an extra $1
never asked the green or black chip players the same.
They bring in the $$$

I think your o/u idea would fly.
players like those greater than 2X payoffs.
especially when they know the 2 and 12 do repeat

Quote: MathExtremist

My biggest concern with the operation of this bet (these bets) is the issue of cheating via past posting.
Because a losing outcome for ODD is a winner for EVEN
I don't think the two wagering areas should be adjacent, for example, at least on a felt table.
So if the ODD bet is on the hook where Big 6/8 used to be, the EVEN bet should be somewhere else -- for example, using two areas, one next to Don't Come and another next to the Field and prop box. That way someone can't slide a losing bet into a winning area with a forearm during a busy session.

Two
one roll bets in the same area
would not be liked by the Dealers and the box IMO.
The players sure.

Try this at a casino night party (I am sure you have these where you live)
and have the players bet this and the field and you watch the action by the Dealers
of taking the losing bets first and then paying the winning bets last.
It will not be pretty all the time
(some players would even reach for their bets before they were paid, this happens way too often just on the Field and the Pass Line winners)
and then try to imagine what it looks like from above.

this bet would be nice placed on Rapid Craps, Shoot to Win Craps or Organic Craps
or any online craps games

Good Luck

I've given the odd/even bet some thought. Perhaps too much thought....


Add an "imprison" type rule for 2 and 12 for even bets and 3 for odd.

Even bets pay 1:1 for 4,6,8,10. Odd bets pay 1:1 for 5,7,9,11. But if the roll is a craps number, you gotta wait another roll.

For odd bets, if the roll is a 3, your bet is held until the next roll. If the next roll is another 3, pay 30 to 1. Anything else and it loses.

Similarly, if you bet even, and the roll is 2 or 12, it's held. If the next roll is a 2 OR 12, pay 30 to 1 otherwise it loses.

When paying 30 to 1, the house edge is 1.54%

If the payout is 25 to 1, the edge is 3%. Pay 20 to 1 for a 4.63% edge.

If it pays 35 to 1, then we're back to a zero edge game.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Add an "imprison" type rule for 2 and 12 for even bets and 3 for odd.

Maybe, but I have no idea how this would work on a physical table. I fear the procedure would be very difficult.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I've given the odd/even bet some thought. Perhaps too much thought....


Add an "imprison" type rule for 2 and 12 for even bets and 3 for odd.

Even bets pay 1:1 for 4,6,8,10. Odd bets pay 1:1 for 5,7,9,11. But if the roll is a craps number, you gotta wait another roll.

For odd bets, if the roll is a 3, your bet is held until the next roll. If the next roll is another 3, pay 30 to 1. Anything else and it loses.

Similarly, if you bet even, and the roll is 2 or 12, it's held. If the next roll is a 2 OR 12, pay 30 to 1 otherwise it loses.

When paying 30 to 1, the house edge is 1.54%

If the payout is 25 to 1, the edge is 3%. Pay 20 to 1 for a 4.63% edge.

If it pays 35 to 1, then we're back to a zero edge game.

I dont want to hijack the Odd/Even thread, but as I like the imprison idea very much, could you translate the math to Under/Over for for 2 in case of under and 12 in case of over?

thanks

Sure.

Over where 7 is a push, there's not a lot in there to play with, unless you make 12 a loser if it doesn't repeat. In that case, you can pay the repeat 12 at 25 to 1 for a 0.85% edge.

Over where 7 is a loser, you can pay the 12 that doesn't repeat 5, and a 12 repeat 50, and get a 2.08% edge.


Here's some charts that will help:

Odd / Even -- Even	Out of 36	Odds	1 in X	Pay	Return
3,5,7,9,11	18.0000	0.5000	2.00	-1	-50.00%
Even 4,6,8,10	16.0000	0.4444	2.25	1	44.44%
Even 2,12 then other	1.8889	0.0525	19.06	-1	-5.25%
Even 2,12, then 2 OR 12	0.1111	0.0031	324.00	30	9.26%
Total	36.0000	1.0000	1.00		-1.54%

High/Low -- High, 7 loses	Out of 36	Odds	1 in X	Pay	Return
2,3,4,5,6	15.0000	0.4167	2.40	-1	-41.67%
7	6.0000	0.1667	6.00	-1	-16.67%
8,9,10,11	14.0000	0.3889	2.57	1	38.89%
12 then other	0.9722	0.0270	37.03	5	13.50%
12 then repeat	0.0278	0.0008	1,296.00	50	3.86%
Total	36.0000	1.0000	1.00		-2.08%

High/Low -- High, 7 pushes	Out of 36	Odds	1 in X	Pay	Return
2,3,4,5,6	15.0000	0.4167	2.40	-1	-41.67%
7	6.0000	0.1667	6.00	0	0.00%
8,9,10,11	14.0000	0.3889	2.57	1	38.89%
12 then other	0.9722	0.0270	37.03	0	0.00%
12 then repeat	0.0278	0.0008	1,296.00	25	1.93%
Total	36.0000	1.0000			-0.85%

Quote: MathExtremist

Maybe, but I have no idea how this would work on a physical table. I fear the procedure would be very difficult.

Simple.

Assume this bet replaces the Big 6/8. To imprison it, the dealers move them to an area behind the hardways, enabling new bets.

@DJTeddyBear

thanks for explaining in detail. lets see what I missed here.
>Over where 7 is a push, there's not a lot in there to play with, unless you make 12 a loser if it doesn't repeat. In that case, you can pay the repeat 12 at 25 to 1 for a 0.85% edge.<

in the table High/Low -- High 7 pushes I see 12 then other = pay 0 but in Your sentence above is written > unless you make 12 a loser if it doesn't repeat<
if I make 12 a loser if it doesnt repeat then there should be -1 instead of 0 under Pay or what did I miss here?

and in case of betting on low the same would be for 2 ?

Oops. Yeah, I should have said 12 other also pushed. If 7 pushes and 12 other looses, then there's a lot of money you can throw at the 12 repeat. Like pay it 60 and still get 0.85% edge.

And, yeah, all the numbers are the same for the Odd/3 bet and Low bets.

Note that for the Even/2/12 bet, if its 2 or 12, then you need a 2 OR 12 on the next roll. I avoided the word repeat for that reason. That's why the math is the same as the Odd/3 where you need a 3 to repeat.

Another idea for the Hi Lo, which I think goes against the grain of ensuring the bet resolves itself within two throws, is to use a Come Bet. For instance if you've bet Lo, then a 7 - rather than being a push - would turn your bet into Come Bet on (say) the 6. Similarly for Hi to 8. Alternatively it could go to a "7-next" bet paying bad odds. Since the value of that bet is less than $1 you've essentially lost something - thus creating the house edge.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Oops. Yeah, I should have said 12 other also pushed. If 7 pushes and 12 other looses, then there's a lot of money you can throw at the 12 repeat. Like pay it 60 and still get 0.85% edge.

And, yeah, all the numbers are the same for the Odd/3 bet and Low bets.

Note that for the Even/2/12 bet, if its 2 or 12, then you need a 2 OR 12 on the next roll. I avoided the word repeat for that reason. That's why the math is the same as the Odd/3 where you need a 3 to repeat.

thanks for correction. I would prefer in case of high, 7 pushes and 12 other looses, how much should one pay in this case for 12 repeat to get close to 1%