"NO ROLL?"

I was shooting craps at Seven Feathers Casino, a Las Vegas-like tribal casino on I-5 in southern Oregon, when the following happened:

A woman was on stick: she was pretty new to the game, barely past being a break in.

Shooter rolled dem bones with a bit of snap, causing them to bounce off the table and onto the body of a player at the end of the table.

While the dice were still in the air, the sticklady clearly yelled out "No roll."

After she said that, while they were still moving, the dice then dropped down onto the rail and then onto the felt, showing a three.

She then yelled out: "Three!"

I took umbrage, and said "You no rolled them."

She argued, and said it is a three.

I told her that once she yelled "No roll," the outcome had been decided.

Again, she said the result is a three.

I was annoyed, and calmly said "Your table, your rules I suppose," then I colored up and left quietly, knowing better to argue beyond that point; I did not want to play at a table where she was on stick or dealing.

In hindsight: is a called "No roll" determinative, or not?

Once called the dice should call should be over turned by the Box or the Floor.

She was premature and corrected herself unwisely. As you said,,,, break in level.

I would say no. Possibly, although very unlikely, she pre-emptively called "no roll" in case the other player tried to knock the die back onto the table so there would be no dispute, or didn't see it and thought it went off the table.

My thought though is that the box should've stepped in and made a decision.

I'm guessing this was a come out roll? I probably would've left the table as well.

Quote: MrV

I was shooting craps at Seven Feathers Casino, a Las Vegas-like tribal casino on I-5 in southern Oregon, when the following happened:

A woman was on stick: she was pretty new to the game, barely past being a break in.

Shooter rolled dem bones with a bit of snap, causing them to bounce off the table and onto the body of a player at the end of the table.

While the dice were still in the air, the sticklady clearly yelled out "No roll."

After she said that, while they were still moving, the dice then dropped down onto the rail and then onto the felt, showing a three.

She then yelled out: "Three!"

I took umbrage, and said "You no rolled them."

She argued, and said it is a three.

I told her that once she yelled "No roll," the outcome had been decided.

Again, she said the result is a three.

I was annoyed, and calmly said "Your table, your rules I suppose," then I colored up and left quietly, knowing better to argue beyond that point; I did not want to play at a table where she was on stick or dealing.

In hindsight: is a called "No roll" determinative, or not?

8:34:09 AM permalink
MrV
Member since: Feb 13, 2010
Threads: 124
Posts: 2150



Quote: petroglyph

I've been told at the table that they can call a no roll or a yes roll whenever they want, if I'm not happy with their call that I don't have to play there.


I suspect that "they" are wrong, at least potentially.

Envision this scenario:

A big bettor is playing craps, playing DC, max bet, max odds, and he's on all the numbers, hoping for a massive payday.

He's got over $100K in action on the felt.

Shooter makes a normal roll of the dice: not a mortar shot, not a slide, both dice hit the table, bounce off the pyramids on the back wall and come to rest on the felt (not in the bowl, not on the dealer's chips).

A seven is rolled.

"No roll" says the stick.

OK, now in that instance, where a seven clearly was the result of a normal throw, do you still maintain that the bettor who would have won has no recourse to challenge the call?

Say he makes a big deal of it; the floor comes in, then the pit boss: assume that they back the stick's call of "No roll," when a review of the tape shows it was clearly a normal, presumptively valid roll.

Big bettor is pissed.

He colors up, leaves, and immediately calls his golf buddy, a very competent attorney.

"Sic 'em," growls the rich guy, "and to hell with the cost."

OK, given the above hypothetical: do you still believe the guy will lose the argument about the "No roll?"



Not the exact same scenario but, what do you think MrV? Can they call a no roll when they "feel like it? Or a yes roll?

The incident happened two days ago, and it was not a come out roll.

Coincidentally it unfolded not too long after I posted the (obviously unlikely) above-quoted "what if" hypothetical scenario.

Of course, in reality nobody playing at the table really cared because the three did not end the roll or kill any of the other players' bets (all PL players or place bettors, with a point already having been set).

Had I lost money on the call I would have pitched a bitch, but as I didn't I just left.

My conclusion: there are no real "rules" or a "rule book" that I can point to; just the "collective wisdom" of the crew and the players.

Just one of those things.

Quote: MrV

The incident happened two days ago, it was not a come out roll.

Coincidental how it unfolded not too long after I posted the (obviously unlikely) quoted "what if" scenario.

Of course, in reality nobody cared because the three did not end the roll or kill any of the other player's bets (all PL players or place bettors, with a point already having been set).

Had I lost money on the call I would have pitched a bitch, but as I didn't I just left.

My conclusion: there are no real "rules" or a "rule book" that I can point to; just the "collective wisdom" of the crew and the players.

Just one of those things.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened but I haven't seen where the players opinion had anything to do with the call.

When you were at the table, I wonder if this post clicked in your mind?

The rules are followed close enough for me to keep playing but I have seen them arbitrarily enforced. And again the rules are different for high rollers or red chip players. That's just the way it is. I'm used to it, but it do piss a guy off once in a while.

Quote: petroglyph

When you were at the table, I wonder if this post clicked in your mind?

No, it did not.

Quote: petroglyph

And again the rules are different for high rollers or red chip players.

Actually, the box is more likely to rule in favor of a guy betting a couple of red chips than a guy betting black chips (or higher).

But granted, the event described in the OP is a strange case. I've never seen a dealer call "No roll" and then overrule himself/herself AFTER the outcome was already established. Weird.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Actually, the box is more likely to rule in favor of a guy betting a couple of red chips than a guy betting black chips (or higher).

I think it would depend on if the black bettor is a regular or not. The box should want to keep a regular black bettor happy and not piss him off in favor of saving a few bucks. But then again we know how casinos sometimes choose to operate..

Quote: MrV

No, it did not.

Didn't think so.

Quote: wudged

I think it would depend on if the black bettor is a regular or not.

I agree, that would be the one exception. If the black chip bettor is a regular who tips well and has a good reputation with the crew, then he/she would probably get the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, rake in the cash! (haha)

To a great degree, the dice themselves answer the questions. If a die inadvertently touches or rolls off a player and lands properly on the table, it's a roll. A premature call is annoying, and as mentioned it was a break-in dealer. Always wait for the dice to land for a call unless it clearly flew off and out of the table area.

Did she say "NO ROLL" or "NO LOLE?"

If no one was hurt by the call(s) then I would just leave it. The sticklady probably learned something. I would save the "dispute" for something more serious.

How about this for a "bad call":

At Rincon a few weeks ago (card craps game) the dice were thrown showing 6 and 4, but the dealer who flipped cards turned over cards 6 and 5 which made the pass. But when another dealer pointed out that the wrong card was turned over, the "card dealer" "unflipped" the 5 and turned over the 4 to reveal a 7-out.

The table went into an uproar with several players arguing once a card was flipped that should be the card.

I kept my mouth shut on this one and let the others do the screaming. And the question was: "is a bad flip the same as a bad call and does it stand?" Well, the 7-out remained the call.

Quote: Paigowdan

To a great degree, the dice themselves answer the questions. If a die inadvertently touches or rolls off a player and lands properly on the table, it's a roll. A premature call is annoying, and as mentioned it was a break-in dealer. Always wait for the dice to land for a call unless it clearly flew off and out of the table area.

With all due respect Dan.

My argument here won't stand anywhere except in my own mind, but here goes.

I'm fine within the usual parameters of the game and will live with grey area calls by the dealers.

What irks me is when I get the dice and one or more players at the opposite end are engaged in multiple late bet changes. Between the time I was slid the dice the other day a player at the end changed their bet twice before I could get the dice launched.

My unpopular thinking is if I throw and hit another players hand and the dice 7 out, I didn't throw that 7, they did. To add a corollary, If some shot takers had it figured out how to manipulate numbers by partnering some how by interfering with the dice, that would surely be unfair as well.

I'd really like for the dealers to better enforce the rule, dice are out no more bets. If the dice have to wait an extra second or two in the box area so be it. When the rules are enforced arbitrarily it always seems to not go in my favor.

Quote: AlanMendelson

If no one was hurt by the call(s) then I would just leave it. The sticklady probably learned something. I would save the "dispute" for something more serious.

How about this for a "bad call":

At Rincon a few weeks ago (card craps game) the dice were thrown showing 6 and 4, but the dealer who flipped cards turned over cards 6 and 5 which made the pass. But when another dealer pointed out that the wrong card was turned over, the "card dealer" "unflipped" the 5 and turned over the 4 to reveal a 7-out.

The table went into an uproar with several players arguing once a card was flipped that should be the card.

I kept my mouth shut on this one and let the others do the screaming. And the question was: "is a bad flip the same as a bad call and does it stand?" Well, the 7-out remained the call.

I think it is easier to set a precedent for calling them correctly when there is only a small or no monetary disagreement, rather than waiting till the table is full and the felt is covered in chips. Get the dealers used to doing it right before all the money is at stake and a big argument ensues. As I posted above I don't like to play with ambiguous rules. It's easier to settle a little disagreement than a big one.

Quote: petroglyph

With all due respect Dan.

My argument here won't stand anywhere except in my own mind, but here goes.

I'm fine within the usual parameters of the game and will live with grey area calls by the dealers.

What irks me is when I get the dice and one or more players at the opposite end are engaged in multiple late bet changes. Between the time I was slid the dice the other day a player at the end changed their bet twice before I could get the dice launched.

My unpopular thinking is if I throw and hit another players hand and the dice 7 out, I didn't throw that 7, they did. To add a corollary, If some shot takers had it figured out how to manipulate numbers by partnering some how by interfering with the dice, that would surely be unfair as well.

I'd really like for the dealers to better enforce the rule, dice are out no more bets. If the dice have to wait an extra second or two in the box area so be it. When the rules are enforced arbitrarily it always seems to not go in my favor.

I totally see this. Once, on one of the longest rolls of my life, and on a table with just me and one other good crap player, a real gangster ploppie sticks his hand into the table - with dice mid-air - and drops a measly five onto the table and says, "yo, may man, three dolla field." The dice hit is inconsiderate arm, and I say:
Dan: "Don't call that, please!"
Gino [stickman]: "Sorry, Dan, I have to. Seven out."
Dan: "Color coming in...."

Dice out [to the shooter] = hands out of the tub.

When I dealt dice, I no-betted the crap out of late bets. Hated it as both a player and dealer. Just wrong.

Rules? Indian casino, they can do whatever they damn well please.

With that said, in my mind, "no roll" means no roll, regardless of its propriety. I don't think they were trying to screw anyone over, but it's a precedent you can't have hanging over you while playing. If they're going to willy-nilly call no roll while the dice are in play, then change their mind after the dice have stopped moving, that's not someone I would trust with my money. I would have reacted the same as you, with a word to the supervisor as I colored up.

Quote: AlanMendelson

And the question was: "is a bad flip the same as a bad call and does it stand?" Well, the 7-out remained the call.

Here's an analogy.

On a regular dice game, if the stickman makes a call, but the dealer near the dice sees that it was an incorrect call, doesn't that dealer alert the stick to correct his call?

I would expect the same thing at card craps. Once the error is discovered, the card dealer should turn that wrong card back down and flip up the correct card. Even if it IS a seven out.

Sounds like the girl made a bad call with the no roll. But the roll did sound like it should of been a roll. That being said the box person shoulda called it a roll. I bet if was a 7-11 winner you would not be mad. Dealers make mistakes esp break in's and mistakes will always be made by even experienced dealers. A dealer mistake will not void a hand or roll if the hand or roll was a good.