What constitutes AP Craps play?
September 29th, 2013 at 1:42:01 PM
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What constitutes AP craps play? I think it goes beyond dice influencing or dice control, though they are part of it.
Here's what I think goes into AP craps play and the more elements you have, the closer you are to being an AP craps player.
1. Bankroll management. You have to be smart with your money and you have to preserve your bankroll for when the good rolls come.
2. Betting management. You lose points if you are a horn better or a field better, and even if you are a hardways bettor you are shifting too much advantage to the house.
3. Comps and bonuses. Even craps players get comps and bonuses and free play and promotions, and you have to take advantage of these.
Right there are three elements and we haven't even mentioned anything controversial yet. Can anyone disagree with the first three? Any other NON CONTROVERIALS elements of craps advantage play?
Now, let's get to the controversial element:
4. Dice influencing. The reality is everyone tries to make the dice go "their way." Some do it by hoping or wishing, and some try to make the dice go their way through prayers. And then there are those who try to throw the dice a certain way. Some stack the dice, some set the dice, some throw the dice with a high loft without a spin, some try a soft roll, some aim for a certain spot on the table, and so forth. EVERYONE TRIES TO INFLUENCE THE DICE. I personally would rather bet on a player -- ANY PLAYER -- who physically tries to make the dice go his way, than a shooter who picks them up and just heaves them. Just the ATTEMPT at dice setting or a controlled throw gives me just a bit more confidence than if someone just picked up the dice, shook them in his/her hand, and heaved them.
I am not trying to pass judgment on dice influencing or dice control or the effectives of dice setting, or the effectiveness of any grip or toss or table position.
I am just saying that those four elements define craps advantage play. And if you have three out of the four (one, two and three) I think it puts you ahead of what otherwise would be a negative expectation game.
Here's what I think goes into AP craps play and the more elements you have, the closer you are to being an AP craps player.
1. Bankroll management. You have to be smart with your money and you have to preserve your bankroll for when the good rolls come.
2. Betting management. You lose points if you are a horn better or a field better, and even if you are a hardways bettor you are shifting too much advantage to the house.
3. Comps and bonuses. Even craps players get comps and bonuses and free play and promotions, and you have to take advantage of these.
Right there are three elements and we haven't even mentioned anything controversial yet. Can anyone disagree with the first three? Any other NON CONTROVERIALS elements of craps advantage play?
Now, let's get to the controversial element:
4. Dice influencing. The reality is everyone tries to make the dice go "their way." Some do it by hoping or wishing, and some try to make the dice go their way through prayers. And then there are those who try to throw the dice a certain way. Some stack the dice, some set the dice, some throw the dice with a high loft without a spin, some try a soft roll, some aim for a certain spot on the table, and so forth. EVERYONE TRIES TO INFLUENCE THE DICE. I personally would rather bet on a player -- ANY PLAYER -- who physically tries to make the dice go his way, than a shooter who picks them up and just heaves them. Just the ATTEMPT at dice setting or a controlled throw gives me just a bit more confidence than if someone just picked up the dice, shook them in his/her hand, and heaved them.
I am not trying to pass judgment on dice influencing or dice control or the effectives of dice setting, or the effectiveness of any grip or toss or table position.
I am just saying that those four elements define craps advantage play. And if you have three out of the four (one, two and three) I think it puts you ahead of what otherwise would be a negative expectation game.
September 29th, 2013 at 1:47:27 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonJust the ATTEMPT at dice setting or a controlled throw gives me just a bit more confidence than if someone just picked up the dice, shook them in his/her hand, and heaved them.
.
Why is this, Alan. Is there a reason or is it just a
personal superstition. I'd rather have a totally
random outcome, like with a fair roulette wheel.
I can deal with random, manipulation disturbs me.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 29th, 2013 at 1:53:24 PM
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Throwing consistently is absolutely no help at all if you haven't done your research on your frequency outcome for the 36 possible outcomes given the throw and you're making the wrong bets.
If you want to bet a system that is based on random outcomes, you should (in addition to expecting to lose the house edge in the long run after enough bets) definitely bet only on those who are obviously attempting to get the most random shot possible! Especially if you are betting larger sized units.
If you want to bet a system that is based on random outcomes, you should (in addition to expecting to lose the house edge in the long run after enough bets) definitely bet only on those who are obviously attempting to get the most random shot possible! Especially if you are betting larger sized units.
aahigh.com
September 29th, 2013 at 1:58:23 PM
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Quote: EvenBobWhy is this, Alan. Is there a reason or is it just a
personal superstition.
If the point is 8, I would rather play with a shooter who is trying to get the point of 8. He could be praying, he could be setting the dice to show a hard 8, and he could be setting the dice with a soft toss with the hard 8 showing... that would make me feel "better" than a shooter who just picks 'em up and throws them.
Is it a superstitiion? Call it what you like. Superstition, wish, hope, prayer, karma. Since it is a random game, it can't hurt.
September 29th, 2013 at 2:07:10 PM
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well there is NO question a person can influence the dice, now i did not say control the dice.... but anyone
that has put in time has found that their results when playing under good conditions help.
But, Alan has the first three right on the money.... even if you best DI in the world, you would be a large
oser without the first three, because your margin of influence is small.
If you think you can be a winner with dice control, and not pay 80% of the attention to the first three, you might
as well flush your table and practice dice down the toilet.
Dicesetter
that has put in time has found that their results when playing under good conditions help.
But, Alan has the first three right on the money.... even if you best DI in the world, you would be a large
oser without the first three, because your margin of influence is small.
If you think you can be a winner with dice control, and not pay 80% of the attention to the first three, you might
as well flush your table and practice dice down the toilet.
Dicesetter
September 29th, 2013 at 2:16:00 PM
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Quote: dicesitterwell there is NO question a person can influence the dice
Otherwise they would be ghostly apparitions.
aahigh.com
September 29th, 2013 at 2:25:26 PM
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EvenBob what you are missing is that there is no advantage in random. Even if DI doesn't work you have to try to influence the dice. If you are just "random" you cannot have an advantage. And again the point is "what constitutes advantage play?" Trying to influence the dice is essential.
September 29th, 2013 at 2:27:13 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonIf the point is 8, I would rather play with a shooter who is trying to get the point of 8. He could be praying, he could be setting the dice to show a hard 8, and he could be setting the dice with a soft toss with the hard 8 showing... that would make me feel "better" than a shooter who just picks 'em up and throws them.
Is it a superstitiion? Call it what you like. Superstition, wish, hope, prayer, karma. Since it is a random game, it can't hurt.
I watched a guy this morning who started with a $300 buy-in get to $5,000 to $7,000 - he had half the green on the table and about $3000 in black. He set and threw, but it still looked random to me.
I just watched him win. I won too on my throw. I bet once on one throw and I won rolling a yo on the comeout and I passed the dice and I never bet again.
I told the guy I didn't want to interfere with what he (and another guy there) were doing (at that time he only had $2000) and that I was not going to bet but just watch them and hope that they got lucky.
That's what I did and that's what happened.
But never at ANY point did I think I should bet on him or the other guy who both had absolute monster rolls. For two reasons: (1) I told him to pretend I wasn't there and just do his thing and I wasn't going to interfere and (2) his shot looked random, and I'm pretty sure he just got lucky. Even though he spent time setting the dice and doing rituals and hoped he would win and even won a lot of money, I have zero regrets for not betting on him.
The dealers got LOTS of tips this morning at the Silverton from this guy.
Aside from that, a consistently BAD shot CAN hurt. It might look good and be bad.
aahigh.com
September 29th, 2013 at 2:46:44 PM
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I don't understand the point you are trying to make Ahigh?
You rolled a yo and passed the dice. And then you just stood there as some other shooter who started with a $300 buy-in rolled and rolled to a win of $5,000 to $7,000 ?? What kept you from betting on him?
What made you stand there and just watch?
It reminds me of the player at Caesars who bought in for $100 at a $10 table but didn't make a bet on the next shooter. And this new shooter gets the dice and goes on a roll of a lifetime. And after each roll... for about the next 45 minutes... the base dealer says to this player "ready for a bet?" And the player says "I'm okay thank you."
After that 45 minute roll it was time for the player with the $100 buy in to roll. He makes a $10 passline bet, rolls a number (six or 8, I don't really remember which) bets odds and $52 across and then sevens out. And leaves.
I guess some people only think they shoudl bet on themselves?
So let me add one more element for being an AP craps player:
5. Catching a good hand thrown by another player.
You rolled a yo and passed the dice. And then you just stood there as some other shooter who started with a $300 buy-in rolled and rolled to a win of $5,000 to $7,000 ?? What kept you from betting on him?
What made you stand there and just watch?
It reminds me of the player at Caesars who bought in for $100 at a $10 table but didn't make a bet on the next shooter. And this new shooter gets the dice and goes on a roll of a lifetime. And after each roll... for about the next 45 minutes... the base dealer says to this player "ready for a bet?" And the player says "I'm okay thank you."
After that 45 minute roll it was time for the player with the $100 buy in to roll. He makes a $10 passline bet, rolls a number (six or 8, I don't really remember which) bets odds and $52 across and then sevens out. And leaves.
I guess some people only think they shoudl bet on themselves?
So let me add one more element for being an AP craps player:
5. Catching a good hand thrown by another player.
September 29th, 2013 at 2:58:00 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelson
What made you stand there and just watch?r.
I don't get that either. And telling the guy to pretend he wasn't there.
Are you guys really that superstitious? It's silly, why not wear prayer
beads and spin around 3 times before you throw. If you can't understand
that random is random, you're still in 1st grade gambling wise.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 29th, 2013 at 3:00:55 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonWhat made you stand there and just watch?
Did you read my post? That's what I told him I was going to do. I wanted to see a win and I did.
In short, I am a man of my word, and I told him to just pretend I wasn't there and that things were going good.
I'll assume from your comments that you can't relate to it?
I invite you to go and ask the dealers who dealt to this guy about the details if you wish.
Kevin, Marc, Lupa, and Galen. On box was Marsh (for a brief moment) and a new boxman I don't know.
One of those four dealers can probably remember EXACTLY what I told them before I passed the dice after rolling a yo.
But I told them I wanted to see them win and I am not greedy and just keep doing their thing.
It continued until a bunch other people showed up. I noticed things changed, and I left because I didn't want to watch them lose it all.
aahigh.com
September 29th, 2013 at 3:03:13 PM
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Quote: EvenBobI don't get that either. And telling the guy to pretend he wasn't there.
Are you guys really that superstitious? It's silly, why not wear prayer
beads and spin around 3 times before you throw. If you can't understand
that random is random, you're still in 1st grade gambling wise.
You know what? Everything makes a difference. One thing that I am certain of is that if anybody else had been there besides me, the win would not have occurred.
Anyone who disagrees with me on this can figuratively kiss my ass. I won today too, and I won plenty, I just chose not to interfere with these folks to do it.
Anyone who thinks that if I had bet on them I would have won too has been brainwashed by dealers to think it's possible to not affect the procession of how things occur and be able to do that kind of thing. IE: Everything matters from my view.
The dealer brainwash is "oh you should have."
The truth is that if you would have the result would have been different and it would have been.
You gotta have a totally different world view than me to believe the way that the dealers are trained to coerce you to bet more.
The other reason I didn't bet, and I why I brought this up is that he was a random shooter and I'm not betting on other shooters right now.
aahigh.com
September 29th, 2013 at 3:34:28 PM
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Quote: AhighYou know what? Everything makes a difference.
.
You know what? No it doesn't. You just think it does, like every other
superstitious person on the planet. You can't explain or understand
random, so you make up your own rules and wonder why you're slowly
going broke. Put all your effort into understanding how random works
and you might get somewhere. Figuratively crossing yourself and jumping
in the air 3 times before every throw puts you in the same league as the
women who move their hands over the slot screen when the figurative
wheels are spinning.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 29th, 2013 at 5:21:03 PM
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post
this started out as a very good post by Alan..... it does not get any better in regards
to what is important in a casino, and if your a DI or if your not, it does not matter,
you have to pay attention to the items He noted,...to drag this into one of the BS
sessions by one of the members, is not a decent reflection of the quality of the
original post.
Dicesetter
this started out as a very good post by Alan..... it does not get any better in regards
to what is important in a casino, and if your a DI or if your not, it does not matter,
you have to pay attention to the items He noted,...to drag this into one of the BS
sessions by one of the members, is not a decent reflection of the quality of the
original post.
Dicesetter
September 29th, 2013 at 6:38:23 PM
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Quote: dicesitterpost
this started out as a very good post by Alan..... it does not get any better in regards
to what is important in a casino, and if your a DI or if your not, it does not matter,
you have to pay attention to the items He noted,...to drag this into one of the BS
sessions by one of the members, is not a decent reflection of the quality of the
original post.
Dicesetter
summary of the above post: asdlkfhqlkjh alan falsdfkj adsfl adsfajkshd flakjsdh ahigh sucks falskdh flakjsdh flasdh flaksdjh flkhw efqohepfoihq;ghciobj ;xci b;lbandfb
The irony is that I think he's TRYING to talk about post quality.
aahigh.com
September 29th, 2013 at 8:10:22 PM
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Quote: EvenBobYou can't explain or understand
random, so you make up your own rules and wonder why you're slowly
going broke.
Are you talking about me here? Sounds like you might be projecting. Just a little maybe. Not sure. Just for shits and giggles, how about you share with us an image of your back yard before you talk trash about mine. No I mean literally, let's see the marble statues, Bob so I can understand how you feel sorry for me and my "troubles."
In the absence of anything real, this is the image I have of you FWIW, Bob. You can't expect me to think you look like Tom Cruz with an indoor pool and five hot babes begging you to go into the Sauna before a quicky.
aahigh.com
September 29th, 2013 at 8:21:54 PM
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This sounds strange to me. How do you know when a GOOD ROLL COMES?Quote: AlanMendelson
1. you have to preserve your bankroll for when the good rolls come.
Just don't go broke, non of this good roll crap.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 29th, 2013 at 8:25:17 PM
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WOW! ...Thats exactly how i pictured him as well..Get out of my head AhighQuote: AhighAre you talking about me here? Sounds like you might be projecting. Just a little maybe. Not sure. Just for shits and giggles, how about you share with us an image of your back yard before you talk trash about mine. No I mean literally, let's see the marble statues, Bob so I can understand how you feel sorry for me and my "troubles."
In the absence of anything real, this is the image I have of you FWIW, Bob. You can't expect me to think you look like Tom Cruz with an indoor pool and five hot babes begging you to go into the Sauna before a quicky.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 29th, 2013 at 8:30:53 PM
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Quote: Ahigh
Nice computer, what is this, about 1985? What's the thing
by his knee's? The Newport pack on the computer is
a nice touch.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 29th, 2013 at 9:40:49 PM
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To be fair, it's about the same computer you are currently using which only allows you to type about halfway across the page for all of your posts.
September 29th, 2013 at 10:13:13 PM
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Quote:
Alan M
1688
I don't understand the point you are trying to make Ahigh?
You rolled a yo and passed the dice. And then you just stood there as some other shooter who started with a $300 buy-in rolled and rolled to a win of $5,000 to $7,000 ?? What kept you from betting on him?
What made you stand there and just watch?
It reminds me of the player at Caesars who bought in for $100 at a $10 table but didn't make a bet on the next shooter. And this new shooter gets the dice and goes on a roll of a lifetime. And after each roll... for about the next 45 minutes... the base dealer says to this player "ready for a bet?" And the player says "I'm okay thank you."
After that 45 minute roll it was time for the player with the $100 buy in to roll. He makes a $10 pass-line bet, rolls a number (six or 8, I don't really remember which) bets odds and $52 across and then sevens out. And leaves.
He must have read one of the many books on becoming a DI, that says, you should never bet on a so-called random roller! The casinos love these so-called DI’s that will never bet on anybody but themselves, they stand there and watch winning rolls go by, only to seven out after making a stupid bet like the $204 across, hoping to make $49 then regressing down, only to seven out and walk away talking to themselves!
It’s amazing how easy it is to BS anybody looking for the magic bullet, to winning at craps! It takes more to win at craps then believing in fiction!
Some people love being looky loos, they just stand around and watch others players and never bet, even when someone is on a roll.
Then you do have a very few players that will use table etiquette, and not buy-in on some ones roll. Maybe,.. just maybe, that is what Ahigh was doing!!!!!!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
...
September 29th, 2013 at 10:43:14 PM
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Quote: superrick
Then you do have a very few players that will use table etiquette, and not buy-in on some ones roll. Maybe,.. just maybe, that is what Ahigh was doing!!!!!!
I think the proper ettiquette is not to buy in until the shooter makes his point and once he does it is okay to buy in. After all, each point is a "new game" in craps.
But it's been a long time since I've seen anyone stay on the sidelines and practice any kind of ettiquette about buying in at a craps table. It's been a real long time. And I think few of us who do practice ettiquette are still around.
September 29th, 2013 at 10:51:04 PM
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Alan
Well i am starting to see a few around here and it is nice to
see.
dicesetter
Well i am starting to see a few around here and it is nice to
see.
dicesetter
September 29th, 2013 at 11:37:17 PM
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Quote: dicesitterAlan
Well i am starting to see a few around here and it is nice to
see.
dicesetter
On my trip to Caesars a week ago NO ONE except me waited for a shooter to make a point. Even as the shooter was about to throw the dice new players were throwing their cash on the table to buy in. And I hate to sound superstitious but sure enough the shooter sevened out almost on cue.
And last week when I was playign card craps at Rincon the same thing happened. I sit there patiently waiting, but other new comers throw their cash on the table even as the shooter is about to release the dice.
Personally, I'd like to see a sign at craps tables that says "no late bets, no buy in's when the puck is showing a point." But fat chance that will ever happen.
September 30th, 2013 at 4:03:39 AM
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Quote: superrickAlan Just out of curiosity why are you so seemingly anti DI? I understand most of it is just BS, but why do u care so much? It almost seems as if you love craps and since you yourself could not find a way to beat the game, you loath anyone who even dreams of the possibilities.Quote:
Alan M
1688
I don't understand the point you are trying to make Ahigh?
You rolled a yo and passed the dice. And then you just stood there as some other shooter who started with a $300 buy-in rolled and rolled to a win of $5,000 to $7,000 ?? What kept you from betting on him?
What made you stand there and just watch?
It reminds me of the player at Caesars who bought in for $100 at a $10 table but didn't make a bet on the next shooter. And this new shooter gets the dice and goes on a roll of a lifetime. And after each roll... for about the next 45 minutes... the base dealer says to this player "ready for a bet?" And the player says "I'm okay thank you."
After that 45 minute roll it was time for the player with the $100 buy in to roll. He makes a $10 pass-line bet, rolls a number (six or 8, I don't really remember which) bets odds and $52 across and then sevens out. And leaves.♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 30th, 2013 at 5:49:40 AM
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It's all about the money Axel, all about the money. And having a hissy fit cause Ahigh won't make him any.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
September 30th, 2013 at 6:24:56 AM
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Played in NM Indian casino one day, started by loosing, left for an hour, came back and won. I wonder if tables follow cycles. Happened so many times.
September 30th, 2013 at 6:46:28 AM
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Quote: Dicenor33Played in NM Indian casino one day, started by loosing, left for an hour, came back and won. I wonder if tables follow cycles. Happened so many times.
Just post in any thread. Next time maybe a blackjack thread.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
September 30th, 2013 at 7:00:33 AM
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Alan
I dont know the right or wrong of it, but here in Wisconsin we have so many fewer
tables than you have and most often there is some of the same players. So i have been
saving something to the players i know and i will mention it to those i dont that you need
to respect other throwers.,
The other day we were up to a tribal casino and my friend was on a decent roll
and old guy ( even even older than me) came over threw his money down
when Doug had the dice, turned around and was talking with some one. then
when they gave him his money he would not sit down, you have to sit when not
throwing on some tubs. He finanally sat down and said ok buddy lets do it.
Well 7 out.
I got the dice and reached over to throw and he hollered cant anyone throw
anything. I turned my head and said in a lower voice, "we just had a nice roll
going before you made an ass of yourself "
the guy left.... then came back about 30 minutes later and did the same thing
on my roll, would not sit down so i did and he asked if i was going to throw, i
said when your done screwing around.
I hit a 7 very soon and then i asked him if he was going to throw... he said yes
so doug and i bet the DP and when he hit a 7 on roll 2 or 3 we clapped way to go
we finally have a shooter.
We did not see that guy again..
When the point is made, buy in then, or even better carry a few chips in
your pocket so you can just start playing.
I guess the table is no different than life, many people dont have any respect for
anyone else.
Dicesetter
I dont know the right or wrong of it, but here in Wisconsin we have so many fewer
tables than you have and most often there is some of the same players. So i have been
saving something to the players i know and i will mention it to those i dont that you need
to respect other throwers.,
The other day we were up to a tribal casino and my friend was on a decent roll
and old guy ( even even older than me) came over threw his money down
when Doug had the dice, turned around and was talking with some one. then
when they gave him his money he would not sit down, you have to sit when not
throwing on some tubs. He finanally sat down and said ok buddy lets do it.
Well 7 out.
I got the dice and reached over to throw and he hollered cant anyone throw
anything. I turned my head and said in a lower voice, "we just had a nice roll
going before you made an ass of yourself "
the guy left.... then came back about 30 minutes later and did the same thing
on my roll, would not sit down so i did and he asked if i was going to throw, i
said when your done screwing around.
I hit a 7 very soon and then i asked him if he was going to throw... he said yes
so doug and i bet the DP and when he hit a 7 on roll 2 or 3 we clapped way to go
we finally have a shooter.
We did not see that guy again..
When the point is made, buy in then, or even better carry a few chips in
your pocket so you can just start playing.
I guess the table is no different than life, many people dont have any respect for
anyone else.
Dicesetter
September 30th, 2013 at 7:22:57 AM
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I was asked why I am against DI. I am not. What I am against is people claiming that they are DIs or DCs when they are not. Show me a video with you influencing the dice or controlling the dice and I will believe you. I've never seen it.
Back in the early days when Jerry Patterson and his group which included Frank Scoblete back then (they later split, and this was before Golden Touch Craps) and Sharpshooter's book was just being published, I used to hang out with all of the DI crowd. I went to their "big meets" and I shot dice with them.
Well, no one used the term "dice control" back then. It was always "dice influencing." And no one made the claims back then that are made today. And even when Sharpshooter was giving us his demonstrations IN PERSON you never heard the wild claims that some make today. And back then there was some science and physics used to explain the art and the skill -- and you didn't hear ridiculous claims that dice magically are thrown wildly and intentionally come to rest as hardways. And back then an influenced throw was done softly with minimal bounce and roll at a low angle and there was physics and NOT voo-doo and imagination.
When I would meet up in Vegas with others we all knew that all we had was a small edge -- and no one would tell stories of turning $5 into $1,000 claiming it was skill. Back in those days we were lucky to make 5% or 10%.
And we certainly wouldn't taunt dealers and table crews, and bring attention to ourselves. And when we shot and did well we didn't get into trouble or bring on heat because we were gentleman.
It wasn't until the "mass marketed, mass produced, take this course and you can beat the casinos crowd" got on their practice rigs with their meaningless SRRs that made them think the craps tables were ATMs that the trouble started.
But getting back to dice influencing... sure I believe in it. Just show me you've got it. It's free to put a video on youtube.
Back in the early days when Jerry Patterson and his group which included Frank Scoblete back then (they later split, and this was before Golden Touch Craps) and Sharpshooter's book was just being published, I used to hang out with all of the DI crowd. I went to their "big meets" and I shot dice with them.
Well, no one used the term "dice control" back then. It was always "dice influencing." And no one made the claims back then that are made today. And even when Sharpshooter was giving us his demonstrations IN PERSON you never heard the wild claims that some make today. And back then there was some science and physics used to explain the art and the skill -- and you didn't hear ridiculous claims that dice magically are thrown wildly and intentionally come to rest as hardways. And back then an influenced throw was done softly with minimal bounce and roll at a low angle and there was physics and NOT voo-doo and imagination.
When I would meet up in Vegas with others we all knew that all we had was a small edge -- and no one would tell stories of turning $5 into $1,000 claiming it was skill. Back in those days we were lucky to make 5% or 10%.
And we certainly wouldn't taunt dealers and table crews, and bring attention to ourselves. And when we shot and did well we didn't get into trouble or bring on heat because we were gentleman.
It wasn't until the "mass marketed, mass produced, take this course and you can beat the casinos crowd" got on their practice rigs with their meaningless SRRs that made them think the craps tables were ATMs that the trouble started.
But getting back to dice influencing... sure I believe in it. Just show me you've got it. It's free to put a video on youtube.
September 30th, 2013 at 7:27:42 AM
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Quote: dicesitterWhen the point is made, buy in then, or even better carry a few chips in
your pocket so you can just start playing.
Excellent advice.
September 30th, 2013 at 7:30:34 AM
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I have to respectfully diagree with superrick.
My point is simple. Any bet on random rollers is a bad bet. I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement or this statement: "It is better not to play games where the casino has an edge." (Whether you follow that advice is irrelevant.)
Yes, you will miss all the hot rolls if you never bet on any random rollers. Everyone not playing craps this very second and those who have never played craps are missing whatever hot rolls are in progress right now. However, they will also miss all the other rolls as well. In the end? The casino wins your money at a random game; hot rolls, not hot rolls, whatever rolls - play enough and you can expect to be a loser at a random game.
Now, if you are a dice controller (or influencer as some prefer to call it) then only betting on yourself is the way to go. It makes perfect sense to me. Unfortunately, very few dice controllers can play at tables alone or where casinos don't get annoyed if you just stand there to wait for the dice to go around. That's why a method such as the 5-Count helps tremendously --- you miss 57 percent of the random rolls. If you bet really small on the other 43 percent (one come or pass line at table minimum) and put your big money on yourself (assuming you are indeed capable to altering the game in your favor) then that is a perfectly acceptable and highly intelligent way to play.
My point is simple. Any bet on random rollers is a bad bet. I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement or this statement: "It is better not to play games where the casino has an edge." (Whether you follow that advice is irrelevant.)
Yes, you will miss all the hot rolls if you never bet on any random rollers. Everyone not playing craps this very second and those who have never played craps are missing whatever hot rolls are in progress right now. However, they will also miss all the other rolls as well. In the end? The casino wins your money at a random game; hot rolls, not hot rolls, whatever rolls - play enough and you can expect to be a loser at a random game.
Now, if you are a dice controller (or influencer as some prefer to call it) then only betting on yourself is the way to go. It makes perfect sense to me. Unfortunately, very few dice controllers can play at tables alone or where casinos don't get annoyed if you just stand there to wait for the dice to go around. That's why a method such as the 5-Count helps tremendously --- you miss 57 percent of the random rolls. If you bet really small on the other 43 percent (one come or pass line at table minimum) and put your big money on yourself (assuming you are indeed capable to altering the game in your favor) then that is a perfectly acceptable and highly intelligent way to play.
September 30th, 2013 at 7:35:59 AM
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Dice influencing
I am not getting to any conversations about that any longer, i really dont care
what any one else thinks or wants proven...
What i am concerned about is playing the best game i can, the best way i can
and be respectfull of others.
If i have an opinion about what i have seen or done i will voice it, if a person
believes it or not is completely out of my hands.
Dicesetter
I am not getting to any conversations about that any longer, i really dont care
what any one else thinks or wants proven...
What i am concerned about is playing the best game i can, the best way i can
and be respectfull of others.
If i have an opinion about what i have seen or done i will voice it, if a person
believes it or not is completely out of my hands.
Dicesetter
September 30th, 2013 at 7:52:29 AM
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Quote: FrankScoblete
My point is simple. Any bet on random rollers is a bad bet.
I don't mind making bad bets that win. And frankly, I've made more money off of random shooters than I've made off of so-called DIs or DCs.
Now, don't get me wrong: I HAVE MADE A LOT OF MONEY PLAYING WITH DICE INFLUENCERS.
But there aren't many true dice influencers out there.
September 30th, 2013 at 8:08:03 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonI don't mind making bad bets that win.
All bad bets win on the craps table every now and then. You and SuperRick agree on this point that when it wins (on those occasions) it's not a bad bet. I'm pretty sure the Wizard takes another view on this. I think it's great to have players who bet without consideration for the house edge per roll. If you want to see another player that also bets this way, go and watch the locals play at the Stratosphere on a $10 table.
They bet the field where the twelve pays double on the two and the twelve and they bet the six and eight for $10 each. I watched a group of about 5 of these young folks who think similarly to you and Rick on the subject of betting on bets that win. If you focus on the past and how you made a profit, and you continue to bet these bad bets knowing that it worked in the past, you are doing exactly what the casinos want you to do.
I invite you to go to the Stratosphere on a Friday or Saturday night and watch folks betting prop bets that pay 30-for-1 and 15-for-1 and field bets that pay double on the 2 and the 12 and $10 six and $10 eight never going to $12. Watch those folks play. Profile their intelligence. Think about it a while. Now realize you and Super Rick are suggesting that this is okay if you win and you are in the same category of player as these guys are in.
There's a whole group of players that "teach" each other how to play this game and that play this game this way. I have seen them "teaching" each other. I have seen them win too. None of it encourages me to participate in this method of play or to bet alongside them with $10 in the field and $10 on the six and $10 on the eight. They are probably thinking the same thing that many other think about getting paid more frequently and/or more often is a good thing and completely unaware of how these things work after a while.
It is educational to know who is in this category of player when considering other things that are also within their belief system of how to best play the game.
In the same casino, you will see roulette tables full of folks with double zero roulette. And then there are about eight Bally european roulette (single zero roulette) that are mostly unoccupied. The players tip the dealers and have twice as high of an edge because they would rather play on a real roulette table for twice the cost and also feel obligated to tip the dealer. The exact same mental model that it doesn't matter when you can win on the real roulette wheel and can't win on the roulette wheel that doesn't require tips and only has a single zero. Maybe they never played the electronic roulette and don't know that in the long run you have a better chance of winning.
More likely they just aren't that smart about double zero roulette and they just don't care and have enough money that they don't have to care. But they also share "advice" with each other about numbers and superstitions and what worked. All very similar to you and Rick.
aahigh.com
September 30th, 2013 at 8:11:54 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonI don't mind making bad bets that win. And frankly, I've made more money off of random shooters than I've made off of so-called DIs or DCs.
Now, don't get me wrong: I HAVE MADE A LOT OF MONEY PLAYING WITH DICE INFLUENCERS.
But there aren't many true dice influencers out there.
Are there ANY "true dice influencers out there," Alan?
You recently typed: "What I am against is people claiming that they are DIs or DCs when they are not. Show me a video with you influencing the dice or controlling the dice and I will believe you. I've never seen it."
So you've never seen a "true dice influencer" on video, but you claim to "have made a lot of money playing with dice influencers."
I note you did not say you made a lot of money "playing with folks who claimed to be dice influencers."
Please clarify: state whether you HAVE or HAVE NEVER seen a player actually influence or control the dice, and please provide details.
So, Sharpshooter is/was a true DI?
Did his shot satisfy the criteria you've previously posted would be necessary to prove he influences / controls dem bones?
"What, me worry?"
September 30th, 2013 at 8:24:25 AM
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I've said many times that I played with the surgeon from Washington and the one mysterious shooter who was at Caesars once. I consider both to be true dice influencers. Back in the late 1990s when I played with some of the "originals" back when Jerry Patterson was getting his gang together yes I played with DIs back then. But back then no one was making the fantastic claims that are being made now.
September 30th, 2013 at 8:26:02 AM
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Quote: MrV
So, Sharpshooter is/was a true DI?
Did his shot satisfy the criteria you've previously posted would be necessary to prove he influences / controls dem bones?
Sharpshooter wrote the book for heaven's sake. Of course he satisfied the criteria. It was his engineering and knowledge of physics which defined it.
September 30th, 2013 at 8:28:19 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonSharpshooter wrote the book for heaven's sake. Of course he satisfied the criteria. It was his engineering and knowledge of physics which defined it.
So then, he was a bonfide DI?
He both walked the walk and talked the talk?
"What, me worry?"
September 30th, 2013 at 9:55:10 AM
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What's the total number of rolls that you've observed from these folks who you believe are "true DI's."
Even if I had a model for what a "true DI" was, I doubt I would be certain that an individual would always be a "true DI."
Those who are successful from luck may have their luck run out.
Even those who are successful from skill may lose skill due to a brain or other injury.
In every case, any individual with lifetime wins at the moment may find themselves in a world of pain in the future; and/or success observed in the present is not guaranteed to continue. I'm not sure how this fact figures into your definition of a "true DI."
I used to be worth more than a million. So at one time I was a "true millionaire." Now I'm not. Someone who started doing what I was doing after I became a millionaire (because I was a "true millionaire") might lose all the money they ever worked for. They might also have been better off mimicking someone who has not yet become a "true millionaire."
My life operated differently after I had money compared to before. The same could ring true for someone you label as a "true DI" as a result of, even, what you tell them that you believe that they have that others don't.
In the end, all this talk of "true DI" versus any other definition of someone who attempts to use skill and intelligence to increase their chance of winning at craps (with or without success) is a bunch of hogwash. About the only thing you can measure with certainty is success in not allowing the game to destroy you. Even a huge win, in my opinion, is MORE likely to be the result of luck no matter what the person who experiences the win believes.
Also, "mysterious" people who you spend a brief moment of your life with that seem to be only winning or seem to be a "true DI" seems a little bit flimsy. I spent one evening with AxelWolf, and even though we both won and the samples could have been that of what would be expected from a "true DI," there is no way that a couple hundred rolls in an evening means anything at all no matter how much was won or lost. I'm pretty sure the Axel would agree with me on that.
Even if I had a model for what a "true DI" was, I doubt I would be certain that an individual would always be a "true DI."
Those who are successful from luck may have their luck run out.
Even those who are successful from skill may lose skill due to a brain or other injury.
In every case, any individual with lifetime wins at the moment may find themselves in a world of pain in the future; and/or success observed in the present is not guaranteed to continue. I'm not sure how this fact figures into your definition of a "true DI."
I used to be worth more than a million. So at one time I was a "true millionaire." Now I'm not. Someone who started doing what I was doing after I became a millionaire (because I was a "true millionaire") might lose all the money they ever worked for. They might also have been better off mimicking someone who has not yet become a "true millionaire."
My life operated differently after I had money compared to before. The same could ring true for someone you label as a "true DI" as a result of, even, what you tell them that you believe that they have that others don't.
In the end, all this talk of "true DI" versus any other definition of someone who attempts to use skill and intelligence to increase their chance of winning at craps (with or without success) is a bunch of hogwash. About the only thing you can measure with certainty is success in not allowing the game to destroy you. Even a huge win, in my opinion, is MORE likely to be the result of luck no matter what the person who experiences the win believes.
Also, "mysterious" people who you spend a brief moment of your life with that seem to be only winning or seem to be a "true DI" seems a little bit flimsy. I spent one evening with AxelWolf, and even though we both won and the samples could have been that of what would be expected from a "true DI," there is no way that a couple hundred rolls in an evening means anything at all no matter how much was won or lost. I'm pretty sure the Axel would agree with me on that.
aahigh.com
September 30th, 2013 at 9:59:25 AM
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Quote:
Alan M
On my trip to Caesars a week ago NO ONE except me waited for a shooter to make a point. Even as the shooter was about to throw the dice new players were throwing their cash on the table to buy in. And I hate to sound superstitious but sure enough the shooter sevened out almost on cue.
Here is the problem with any craps player thinking that they can play AP craps like a few of the great fiction writers are now pushing in the DI craps playing world. My good buddy The Madprofessor and his prtege The DeadCat as he was known on the craps boards, were pushing AP craps . They came out and said that the DeadCat was going to double his bank roll using the Madprofessor’s method of playing craps.
Over on the DiceInstitute where they both were world famous in the DI world, nobody even knew what that bank roll was, there was no way of even telling if he did double his bank roll, I often wonder what his bank roll was, Did he start out with only $5 and couldn’t even double it? That is one of the problems on craps boards like the DiceInstitute, nobody ask the questions that could see right through all the fiction that is being written there, by their hero’s!
Anyway DeadCat’s illustrious career came to a crashing end, when he had to sneak out-of-town, when he couldn’t make it here in Vegas, it wasn’t until a few month later, that members found out that he wasn’t living in Vegas anymore! You can’t make money believing in fiction. You damn sure can’t make it by making stupid bets like the Madprofessor’s stupid $204 across, where you risk $204 to win $49 on any hit you get, then stay up for one or two hits, and regress down!
It’s those players with no table etiquette, that will kill any so-called DI and what they are doing on the tables they are playing on. Playing craps is not like playing golf, where everything is quite, and you have nothing in you’re way. No,.. in craps you have every stupid player there is on the table, throwing in late bets, putting chips right were you have been landing your dice, and any other stupid thing they can do that makes it next to impossible to have a good roll when playing craps.
These players are their own worst enemies, because they don’t have a clue, as to what they are doing when playing craps!
Quote:
Alan M
Back in the early days when Jerry Patterson and his group which included Frank Scoblete back then (they later split, and this was before Golden Touch Craps) and Sharpshooter's book was just being published, I used to hang out with all of the DI crowd. I went to their "big meets" and I shot dice with them.
That was before FrankScoblete came along, with his slick produce videos like Breaking Vegas:”Dice Dominator” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhno_F9vZcw
The poor suckers that were watching that video never gave it a thought that it was edited when it was produced.
It was also a tool to use in their mass marketing, of selling dice control, just like all the books that were written, these guys were making all their money off of selling the classes and the books they were selling, common sense, would tell you that if you could do what you were claiming you wouldn’t be selling it to the world, you would be making you’re money off the tables, instead of taking all you’re time to put together a business product, where you would need to bring in others, to teach what you claim to be making you millions on the craps tables!
Quote:
Alan M
When I would meet up in Vegas with others we all knew that all we had was a small edge -- and no one would tell stories of turning $5 into $1,000 claiming it was skill. Back in those days we were lucky to make 5% or 10%.
And we certainly wouldn't taunt dealers and table crews, and bring attention to ourselves. And when we shot and did well we didn't get into trouble or bring on heat because we were gentleman.
It wasn't until the "mass marketed, mass produced, take this course and you can beat the casinos crowd" got on their practice rigs with their meaningless SRRs that made them think the craps tables were ATMs that the trouble started.
Now days you have the great fiction writer, the Madprofessor, claiming to take a Half Million off the table with a $2500 buy-in. You can read about it here, in the post “How good are you at math?”
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/ftopic733-0-asc-75.php
AP craps playing does not exist in the real world, yes you have it in BJ and Video Poker, but that’s it! These great fiction writers need something to sell to their followers, so why not AP craps playing, after all the so-called DI’s in their need to find that magic bullet will just about believe anything, these guys write! After all they believed where the Madprofessor wrote that he only rolled nothing but the 4 and 10 and a few 6’s in a 13 point PL-Point repeaters (covering only three PL-numbers, the 4, the 6, and the 10).
Way to funny if you ask me, but then what do I know,... any fictional character could do that,..right?
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
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September 30th, 2013 at 10:08:42 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonWhat constitutes AP craps play? I think it goes beyond dice influencing or dice control, though they are part of it.
Here's what I think goes into AP craps play and the more elements you have, the closer you are to being an AP craps player.
1. Bankroll management. You have to be smart with your money and you have to preserve your bankroll for when the good rolls come.
This is a GREAT number 1, and is probably the biggest factor to success or failure at any given session.
I have noted many times here that almost EVERY session I play at craps (3 to 6 hours) has at least one GREAT roll. Sometimes it is me, but many times it is one or two other 'random' shooters. I have a losing session when I have lost most of my BR prior to the roll, and am being too careful with my bets and presses, thus I win much less than I should have on the great roll.
Quote: AlanMendelson
2. Betting management. You lose points if you are a horn better or a field better, and even if you are a hardways bettor you are shifting too much advantage to the house.
I believe your intent is to point out that making bets where there is a high house edge is bad, and that I agree with, up to a point.
But that is what you should write, instead of pointing to the Field (many places have 3x on the 12, and a couple of places have 3x on 2 and 12, which makes the Field a GREAT bet).
I have an exception in this rule though. Supperrick and I were playing at Green Valley and the number of 12s being rolled was way over expected. I knew it was high, but since Rick was tracking, he knew exactly how many had rolled. After a couple more 12s rolled, Rick decided to bet $1 for 30 straight rolls. I think he hit it 3 times!
Now, normally the 12 would be a bad bet, but in this case, was it a bad bet? Because Rick bet the 12 due to conditions being observed at the time, I do not consider this a bad bet.
Quote: AlanMendelson
3. Comps and bonuses. Even craps players get comps and bonuses and free play and promotions, and you have to take advantage of these.
I get $300-$400 a month in chips to play craps at Beau Rivage. Ironically, I have lost probably 90% of those free bets. If I play DP with them, the shooter rolls natural comeouts. If I play PL, either craps is rolled, or it is PSO.
But your point is correct. You have to take advantage of the comps and bonuses, BUT, don't over play trying to get more comps.
Quote: AlanMendelson
Now, let's get to the controversial element:
4. Dice influencing. The reality is everyone tries to make the dice go "their way." Some do it by hoping or wishing, and some try to make the dice go their way through prayers. And then there are those who try to throw the dice a certain way. Some stack the dice, some set the dice, some throw the dice with a high loft without a spin, some try a soft roll, some aim for a certain spot on the table, and so forth. EVERYONE TRIES TO INFLUENCE THE DICE. I personally would rather bet on a player -- ANY PLAYER -- who physically tries to make the dice go his way, than a shooter who picks them up and just heaves them. Just the ATTEMPT at dice setting or a controlled throw gives me just a bit more confidence than if someone just picked up the dice, shook them in his/her hand, and heaved them.
I am not trying to pass judgment on dice influencing or dice control or the effectives of dice setting, or the effectiveness of any grip or toss or table position.
I am just saying that those four elements define craps advantage play. And if you have three out of the four (one, two and three) I think it puts you ahead of what otherwise would be a negative expectation game.
I am going to approach this topic from the opposite direction. I consider myself to be a random roller. I don't just chuck the dice, as I do try to keep them on axis, and more importantly, I am aiming for a specific spot on the table. But more as an athletic challenge to myself, rather than due to less 7s coming up when I throw the dice right where I want them.
I will set the dice at times, and when I do set them, and throw a nice on axis shot from SR1 or SL1, I can get on a roll. Almost make me think I am a DI.
Then reality bites, and I go PSO 3 times in a row. But then again, I made 3 points in just 7 throws a while back. That was fun!
Last story. I was in Paris over New Years 2013. A few guys showed up in the morning, just smacking of DI. All getting their favorite throwing spots, all setting dice, all good throws, etc. I had played with a couple of them the day before, and they had good rolls. But it was taking so long for the table to get open, and for the guys to get where they wanted, that myself and a guy from Canada went to an open table to play. Random guy. And he had a really good roll. We were both blitz pressing the place numbers, trying to get to $1000 on a number. We made some money, but left way more on the table.. Point was, a random roller had a much better roll than anything that happened on the other table, full of DIs.
So, to the topic of the thread, I do not find DI is a factor in Craps play. However, there is no such thing as AP craps play. You can never get an ADVANTAGE over the house. You can get an Advantage over other players, but not against the house. So, feel good that you are betting smarter than the other players, but ultimately, the person who comes out ahead is the one who was betting the numbers that were thrown, regardless of how good or bad the bet was.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 30th, 2013 at 12:39:52 PM
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Quote:FrankScoblet
I have to respectfully diagree with superrick.
My point is simple. Any bet on random rollers is a bad bet. I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement or this statement: "It is better not to play games where the casino has an edge." (Whether you follow that advice is irrelevant.)
Yes, you will miss all the hot rolls if you never bet on any random rollers. Everyone not playing craps this very second and those who have never played craps are missing whatever hot rolls are in progress right now. However, they will also miss all the other rolls as well. In the end? The casino wins your money at a random game; hot rolls, not hot rolls, whatever rolls - play enough and you can expect to be a loser at a random game.
Now, if you are a dice controller (or influencer as some prefer to call it) then only betting on yourself is the way to go. It makes perfect sense to me. Unfortunately, very few dice controllers can play at tables alone or where casinos don't get annoyed if you just stand there to wait for the dice to go around. That's why a method such as the 5-Count helps tremendously --- you miss 57 percent of the random rolls. If you bet really small on the other 43 percent (one come or pass line at table minimum) and put your big money on yourself (assuming you are indeed capable to altering the game in your favor) then that is a perfectly acceptable and highly intelligent way to play.
The trouble with writing anything is you can never back down, after you wrote it, you must keep reinforcing your writing even when it doesn’t work!
You should have done the math before you came up with you’re five count. Most so-called random rollers never get over four rolls of the dice, so after the 5th roll of the dice the shooter sevens out, really smart on you’re part!
Before you came along Frank and busted into the craps playing fantasy world, there were only the so-called random rollers, and guess what,..other players were winning money at the craps tables! The words Dice Controller wasn’t even coined yet and you still had winners everyday at the tables. There were still mega rolls happening, and they weren’t coming from the so-called DI’s!
The only way the dice schools could get anybody into believing that they were better off taking a course in dice control, was convincing them that they couldn’t bet on anybody else, that was a so-called random roller. It would be a hard sell if you wrote that you could make money off these so-called random rollers!
Everyday in the casinos around the world, there are players making money off these so-called random rollers, that you say you can’t bet on, instead of teaching your student how to bet the game you took the easy way out, and turned you’re students against these so-called random rollers. I tell everybody that I know that there isn’t a bad bet on the table if you know when to bet them and they are hitting. That takes learning the game and not believing in fiction. I also tell every so-called DI that I know, that they will have more PSO’s then their counter parts the random rollers. Maybe that’s were you’re five count would work, by not betting on the so-called DI’s that are having more PSO’s!
You can write about all the percentages that you want to, but it doesn’t change that fact, that most players will never get pass the four rolls that the math of the game says will happen. That is where your five count is a complete failure! You used it to point out the fact that players never get passed four rolls of the dice, but if they do you forgot to tell you're students that they most likely will seven out right after you're 5 count, is over with!
Quote:Frank S
Yes, you will miss all the hot rolls if you never bet on any random rollers. Everyone not playing craps this very second and those who have never played craps are missing whatever hot rolls are in progress right now. However, they will also miss all the other rolls as well. In the end? The casino wins your money at a random game; hot rolls, not hot rolls, whatever rolls - play enough and you can expect to be a loser at a random game.
I can’t count how many times I’ve stood at a craps table and watch you’re followers, standing at the craps table patting themselves on the back for not betting on the random roller that was on a fifty roll, or only betting on the 6’s and 8’s because that is what they were taught to bet on. The sad thing was they never made one 6 or 8 when they were shooting, but they were killing the 4’s and 10’s!
They walked away from the table a loser, because they didn’t use their brain, and refused to bet on what they were rolling, one size doesn’t fit all.
It stands to reason that as a craps player you will see more good rolls coming from the so-called random rollers, because they out number the so-called DI’s tens of thousands to one! There are plenty of players that have never even seen a DI and most wouldn’t even know that there was a DI on the table shooting, they think everybody is just getting lucky when they are shooting.
Most of you’re students failed at becoming a so-called DI, because of you’re teachings, where you say you can never bet on anybody but a DI, if you had taught them that they needed to learn how to use smart betting, and learned to bet on the other players that were getting on the good rolls, maybe they would still be playing the game of craps! These poor suckers travel to get to a casino, then they play at the wrong times, and play on full tables, never betting on anybody but themselves, only to lose when they can’t get on a decent roll, because, now get this,..all of the heat they are getting, because of all the great fiction about anybody that sets the dice, and the world thinks of as a DI!
While some will argue the point, that some of the great fiction writers out there has done a lot of good with their great fiction they write, others that play the game all the time, knows the real truth, the fiction writers are the ones we all have to thank for the stupid heat anybody gets when they are setting the dice and just getting lucky and they are on a roll!
So Frank,.. you can respectfully disagree with superrick, but I too, have the right to respectfully disagree with you, and all the great fiction writers out there in la la land!
...
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...!
You do good brada ..!
superrick
Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php
...
September 30th, 2013 at 1:24:02 PM
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Superrick wrote: “The trouble with writing anything is you can never back down, after you wrote it, you must keep reinforcing your writing even when it doesn’t work! You should have done the math before you came up with you’re [sic] five count. Most so-called random rollers never get over four rolls of the dice, so after the 5th roll of the dice the shooter sevens out, really smart on you’re [sic] part!”
Superrick, I’m sorry to do this to you but the average roll is around 8 numbers. In addition, we are dealing with statistics done by Dr. Don Catlin and Dr. Stuart Ethier (both math professors) and they have shown (with some slight difference in tenths of a percent or so) that we do avoid about 57 percent of the random rolls using the 5-Count. So the math I use in my books is correct. I was not afraid to put the 5-Count to a true analysis. (By the way the Captain "guessed" we missed 50 percent of the random rolls so in your next argument you can bring up that he was wrong in his estimation.)
Superrick: “Other players were winning money at the craps tables.”
Really? In the long run or in spurts or in short runs? I would say that anyone who played a significant amount of time – short of amazing luck – had a losing expectation. On any given day, week or month (give or take) some people will be ahead. But the casino edge will grind them down if they are playing a random game.
Your idea that there is some way to bet the game to be a long term winner is (sadly) nonsense --- again short of amazingly good luck. I have no idea how you bet based on the following statement:
Superrick: “I tell everybody that I know that there isn’t a bad bet on the table if you know when to bet them and they are hitting. That takes learning the game and not believing in fiction.”
How do you know when to bet random bets? They hit in the past; you have no idea they will hit in the future in order to overcome the house edge in a random game. If you do know some magical formula I’ll write a book about it. You’re talking about a trend betting system here and we know (or at least many of us know) this is a total misunderstanding of past trends affecting future results.
Now if as you claim dice influencers seven out after establishing a point more often than random rollers --- think about what you are saying. If their percent of seven-outs is more than those of random rollers it has a meaning --- kind of like the home-run hitter striking out more than a singles-type of hitter. Babe Ruth as opposed to (pick your singles hitter). Who made the most money in this analogy? Babe Ruth or (put whomever you want here)? Why would they seven out quicker than a random roller? Something other than randomness might be involved here or --- what other explanation can there be?
I think my advice to only bet on yourself is solid advice or to use the 5-Count if you play at crowded tables. It’s probably solid advice even for random rollers if you think about it. One bet; one random roller after the 5-Count. It can only help you reduce your expected losses.
If there is heat on some players that also tells you something --- at least it tells me something. I don’t think I’ve been banned from more than a host of casinos (and some states) for craps because I’m good looking (I am good looking and don't disagree with me on that). I’ll have a complete rundown of my experiences in blackjack and craps in two books coming out; one in 2014 and one in 2015. These are, by the way, non-fiction books.
Superrick, I’m sorry to do this to you but the average roll is around 8 numbers. In addition, we are dealing with statistics done by Dr. Don Catlin and Dr. Stuart Ethier (both math professors) and they have shown (with some slight difference in tenths of a percent or so) that we do avoid about 57 percent of the random rolls using the 5-Count. So the math I use in my books is correct. I was not afraid to put the 5-Count to a true analysis. (By the way the Captain "guessed" we missed 50 percent of the random rolls so in your next argument you can bring up that he was wrong in his estimation.)
Superrick: “Other players were winning money at the craps tables.”
Really? In the long run or in spurts or in short runs? I would say that anyone who played a significant amount of time – short of amazing luck – had a losing expectation. On any given day, week or month (give or take) some people will be ahead. But the casino edge will grind them down if they are playing a random game.
Your idea that there is some way to bet the game to be a long term winner is (sadly) nonsense --- again short of amazingly good luck. I have no idea how you bet based on the following statement:
Superrick: “I tell everybody that I know that there isn’t a bad bet on the table if you know when to bet them and they are hitting. That takes learning the game and not believing in fiction.”
How do you know when to bet random bets? They hit in the past; you have no idea they will hit in the future in order to overcome the house edge in a random game. If you do know some magical formula I’ll write a book about it. You’re talking about a trend betting system here and we know (or at least many of us know) this is a total misunderstanding of past trends affecting future results.
Now if as you claim dice influencers seven out after establishing a point more often than random rollers --- think about what you are saying. If their percent of seven-outs is more than those of random rollers it has a meaning --- kind of like the home-run hitter striking out more than a singles-type of hitter. Babe Ruth as opposed to (pick your singles hitter). Who made the most money in this analogy? Babe Ruth or (put whomever you want here)? Why would they seven out quicker than a random roller? Something other than randomness might be involved here or --- what other explanation can there be?
I think my advice to only bet on yourself is solid advice or to use the 5-Count if you play at crowded tables. It’s probably solid advice even for random rollers if you think about it. One bet; one random roller after the 5-Count. It can only help you reduce your expected losses.
If there is heat on some players that also tells you something --- at least it tells me something. I don’t think I’ve been banned from more than a host of casinos (and some states) for craps because I’m good looking (I am good looking and don't disagree with me on that). I’ll have a complete rundown of my experiences in blackjack and craps in two books coming out; one in 2014 and one in 2015. These are, by the way, non-fiction books.
September 30th, 2013 at 1:44:39 PM
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Quote: AhighWhat's the total number of rolls that you've observed from these folks who you believe are "true DI's."
Easy to answer: I played with the surgeon multiple sessions. It is easy to recognize an easy controlled throw and roll to the back wall with dice staying on axis until they reach the back wall and then a slow bounce off the back wall. When you see it, you know what it is. While he never had a monster roll lasting more than about 25 minutes he had multiple "hands" hitting inside numbers lasting about five to ten minutes each, or 15 to 30 rolls each. Including the one time we were forced to play on a $100 table one night at Caesars because all of the $25 tables were filled.
With the "mystery shooter" I only was able to watch him. I can't tell you if he made passes before I got to the table but it was early in the morning. I stood and watched for nearly 25 minutes as his slow, easy roll to the flat center of the back wall from SL1 lightly bounced showing inside numbers. He colored up several thousand and left. He said nothing and I never saw him again.
When you see the form, the delivery, you do not have to observe for a long time. Either someone knows how to "control" dice or someone just lets them fly. Both of these guys had deliberate, controlled throws. What Sharpshooter showed us and wrote about.
September 30th, 2013 at 2:00:59 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonEasy to answer: I played with the surgeon multiple sessions. It is easy to recognize an easy controlled throw and roll to the back wall with dice staying on axis until they reach the back wall and then a slow bounce off the back wall. When you see it, you know what it is. While he never had a monster roll lasting more than about 25 minutes he had multiple "hands" hitting inside numbers lasting about five to ten minutes each, or 15 to 30 rolls each. Including the one time we were forced to play on a $100 table one night at Caesars because all of the $25 tables were filled.
With the "mystery shooter" I only was able to watch him. I can't tell you if he made passes before I got to the table but it was early in the morning. I stood and watched for nearly 25 minutes as his slow, easy roll to the flat center of the back wall from SL1 lightly bounced showing inside numbers. He colored up several thousand and left. He said nothing and I never saw him again.
When you see the form, the delivery, you do not have to observe for a long time. Either someone knows how to "control" dice or someone just lets them fly. Both of these guys had deliberate, controlled throws. What Sharpshooter showed us and wrote about.
Let n equal the total number of rolls observed by you. Please solve for n. An approximate range of minimum and maximum scalar values will be acceptable.
aahigh.com
September 30th, 2013 at 2:04:47 PM
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Alan... so basically your just against Ahigh then...cool. I like what you had to say and I 100% agree with the soft roll your talking about. If there is an edge to be had it's certainly not done how I see people attempting it now days.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 30th, 2013 at 2:19:14 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfAlan... so basically your just against Ahigh then...cool. I like what you had to say and I 100% agree with the soft roll your talking about. If there is an edge to be had it's certainly not done how I see people attempting it now days.
Alan isn't against me. Alan has built his own little house of cards all by himself. I'm not going to knock them down, I just want him to describe what the house of cards that he built looks like so we could all contemplate the structural integrity of the house.
But he isn't so good at responding to simple direct questions. If I ask him "what color is your house of cards" he would answer "it is the most beautiful color you could imagine!"
I don't know would have been a better answer than what he gave me; and I suspect he has no idea except that he knows a "true DI" when he sees one, and even though he has never watched me shoot in real life, he knows I'm not one and wants to inform everyone that he is the guy who gets to decide what is a "true DI" and I'm not one of them.
aahigh.com
September 30th, 2013 at 3:12:49 PM
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Alan
We all should have learned by now that when you argue with some one that just wants to argue,,
sooner or later they drag you down to their level.
Any serious craps player understands the points made in your post, they also understand there are
random players that get lucky, there are people that practice dice controll that are better at it than some
other people that practice, there are people that practice dice control that are terrible at it.
I have met a number of people on here and i respect them all, each may have their own way of playing, or
betting, and if it works for them thats ok. I have taken the classes at GTC when Frank was there and he never lied
to me about what to expect. I understand there are others that teach classes, and i would greatly enjoy
looking at them, but in the end, each of us makes up our own mind as to what we do.
I dont think we should continue to demand perfection from anyone in order that their point of view has any
value. We always seem to have one individual and his minions that disrupt all points of view...i think that
is sad, and immature.
I look forward to every post by you because you have something to say, i look forward to posts By Superrick, and Frank
and Harley,because even as they dont agree, they are very interesting.
We have the ability to have some real good discussions.
Dicesetter
We all should have learned by now that when you argue with some one that just wants to argue,,
sooner or later they drag you down to their level.
Any serious craps player understands the points made in your post, they also understand there are
random players that get lucky, there are people that practice dice controll that are better at it than some
other people that practice, there are people that practice dice control that are terrible at it.
I have met a number of people on here and i respect them all, each may have their own way of playing, or
betting, and if it works for them thats ok. I have taken the classes at GTC when Frank was there and he never lied
to me about what to expect. I understand there are others that teach classes, and i would greatly enjoy
looking at them, but in the end, each of us makes up our own mind as to what we do.
I dont think we should continue to demand perfection from anyone in order that their point of view has any
value. We always seem to have one individual and his minions that disrupt all points of view...i think that
is sad, and immature.
I look forward to every post by you because you have something to say, i look forward to posts By Superrick, and Frank
and Harley,because even as they dont agree, they are very interesting.
We have the ability to have some real good discussions.
Dicesetter
September 30th, 2013 at 3:29:24 PM
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Quote: dicesitterWe all should have learned by now that when you argue with some one that is not playing with a full deck.
Last time I checked, there are no cards involved in the game of craps.
As far as proof of DI, if your samples are correct, your shots are the most impressive I have ever seen.
With only 183 samples, you had several p-values that showed that your results were clearly not random!
Congratulations!!!
You and Alan should get together.
aahigh.com
