Truth, or lie?

Wow.

A fellow who puts on dice setting seminars posted on another board about a student of his:

"I have one student who flies to Macau once a month to shoot the dice on behalf of a group of high rollers out there. I would tell you how much he makes - getting paid a percentage of what he wins - but you wouldn't believe the number. I will say that it is short of seven figures. Barely."

So, what do you think?

Truth, or lie?

Quote: MrV

Wow.

A fellow who puts on dice setting seminars posted on another board about a student of his:

"I have one student who flies to Macau once a month to shoot the dice on behalf of a group of high rollers out there. I would tell you how much he makes - getting paid a percentage of what he wins - but you wouldn't believe the number. I will say that it is short of seven figures. Barely."

So, what do you think?

Truth, or lie?

Truth, definitely.

On winning trips: +X%*win=wage

On losing trips: 0*0=0

What does he have to lose?

Well, let's say there are 9 high rollers in the group. 5 of them lose big(he gets nothing). 4 of them win big (he gets a percentage). Depending on how much they are winning and losing, maybe hundreds of thousands... he makes big money. Has nothing to do with his rolling skills if that's the case.

If the story is he rolls and wins for everyone every time... it's a lie.

ZCore13

"i wont tell you how much he makes, but here's how much he makes"

lol

Quote: MrV

Truth, or lie?

I don't know, but I sure find it strange that even ONE person smart enough to become rich is dumb enough to hire a proxy shooter at craps. I find it therefore nine times as strange to consider NINE smart persons hiring a proxy shooter.

Quote: FleaStiff

I don't know, but I sure find it strange that even ONE person smart enough to become rich is dumb enough to hire a proxy shooter at craps. I find it therefore nine times as strange to consider NINE smart persons hiring a proxy shooter.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/intlwlth.htm

True. But I volunteer to be the shooter if I can get the same deal. Sounds like a good rake to me. 100% upside with no downside.

Quote: Zcore13

Well, let's say there are 9 high rollers in the group. 5 of them lose big(he gets nothing). 4 of them win big (he gets a percentage). Depending on how much they are winning and losing, maybe hundreds of thousands... he makes big money. Has nothing to do with his rolling skills if that's the case.

If the story is he rolls and wins for everyone every time... it's a lie.

ZCore13

This is exactly how and why it happens. That's how most high profile poker players make tons of money(not all). There reputation convinces others they are worthy of being backed. Usually the backer has has little knowledge of what a proper backing deal should be. I have seen deals such as, 60 player/40 sucker per session.... LOL When the poker player loses he loses nothing , when they win they get a large cut. A crafty poker player with this situation will play super aggressive creating big swings.

There's a Russian guy in Atlantic City who travels the casinos there and does the same thing. He is strictly a random roller but who cares? New players happily give them their money to roll for them. He wins some money for them, he wins some for himself; he loses some money for them, he loses nothing for himself except some time.

I'd love to know who the dice guy is who wrote that. You can email me and I will not tell a soul.

Quote: FrankScoblete

I'd love to know who the dice guy is who wrote that. You can email me and I will not tell a soul.

No PM necessary: we're all adults here, with nothing to hide, right?

here

Looks like you were right, Frank: there really ARE dice Controllers who are Winning Millions from the Casinos.

The twist is, the casinos are in Macao.

Who knew?

Thanks Mr. V.

Quote: MrV

Wow.

A fellow who puts on dice setting seminars posted on another board about a student of his:

"I have one student who flies to Macau once a month to shoot the dice on behalf of a group of high rollers out there. I would tell you how much he makes - getting paid a percentage of what he wins - but you wouldn't believe the number. I will say that it is short of seven figures. Barely."

So, what do you think?

Truth, or lie?

That sounds about as good to me as the ipo on Facebook.

If we are quick we can buy jcp while it's low.

Why would they stop short of 7 figure's? When I get that close I just gotta take it over, know what I mean?

Sort of like almost having an orgasm.

It's so unfortunate that some gamblers lack rigid morals and ethics and make all us ethical gamblers look bad.

So, you believe that Heavy's claim is somehow immoral and unethical?

While I won't dispute that, let's argue from the alternative.

Morality and Ethics have little or no relevance in a casino or in casino-based activities; all that is required is that the activity not be "illegal," or "against the house rules."

Casinos are whores, we are johns, and winning is our occasional orgasm.

If "All's fair in love and war," wouldn't the same hold for casino gambling?

Quote: MrV

So, you believe that Heavy's claim is somehow immoral and unethical?

While I won't dispute that, let's argue from the alternative.

Morality and Ethics have little or no relevance in a casino or in casino-based activities; all that is required is that the activity not be "illegal," or "against the house rules."

Casinos are whores, we are johns, and winning is our occasional orgasm.

If "All's fair in love and war," wouldn't the same hold for casino gambling?

It was intended to be facetious, not serious. More like a joke. Haha maybe?

I think that MrV and Heavy have been going back and forth since the birth of Ahigh, or pretty close.

My intent was to point out the boldness of the claim.

Whether he believes it is true or is merely repeating what he was told: who knows?

But my god, a claim that a dice setting student of his makes almost a million a month from the casinos in Macao?

Whoa!

Well well. It's my old buddy Mr. V. How's the ambulance chasing gig? Still got the shingle hanging out or have you retired?

I always love it when threads like this crank up, because it automatically drives a bunch of new members over to my Axis Power Craps forum. Do people who don't know me personally get some kick out of getting on line and talk smack about me? Sure. Does it bother me? Not particularly. I predict a spike in video sales as the chatter intensifies. All I ask is that you get your quotes right, give me a proper attribution and spell my name correctly. So thanks again, V. I appreciate the business.

Those of you who are naysayers on the whole dice influencing thing might benefit from reading the thread V referred to in its entirety. I think I do a fairly good job of explaining where the DI's edge comes from and why so few dice setters (probably fewer than 10%) are financially successful at the game. But hey, the topic at hand is my reference to a friend of mine - a guy who used to live right down the road from me in central Texas - who is making big money in Macau. First, let's start with my original comment on the other forum:

Quote:

"I have one student who flies to Macau once a month to shoot the dice on behalf of a group of high rollers out there. I would tell you how much he makes - getting paid a percentage of what he wins - but you wouldn't believe the number. I will say that it is short of seven figures. Barely."

No, I'm not going to out the guy any (much) further than I already have. I will tell you that when he's in Asia he blends in well with the crowd. He travels to China on business frequently, which is how he made the Macau connection. He does not make close to seven figures a WEEK, as Mr. V implied. V - are you a Democrat? Just wondered based on how you're cooking the books. Anyway, this guy does make a big six figure income annually from his craps play - predominately in Macau. The locals view him as a bit of a cowboy - the guy who rides in from out of town - stops the bank robbery - gets the girl and rides off into the sunset. He plays with his own money - but the local guys bet with him and kick him a percentage. Yes, it's a sweet deal. There's not a lot of vig on money people just hand to you.

Are there other people out there making that kind of money off the tables? Sure. Are you likely to hear about them? Highly unlikely. I remember Scoblete writing about the "Lee brothers" years ago, so there's one team.

There are several pro blackjack teams around who use craps as a "cover" game. I remember one of them winning something like $800K at craps one year - so much for cover.

I know a team that plays out of Mississippi - and this is a good one - consisting of a father and his two sons. The father is an AME minister and former street hustler. He knows more crooked shots than you can shake the dice at, and he's taught them all to his boys. They play up and down the river, and occasionally get off the beaten path into places like Shreveport/Bossier, Lake Charles, Biloxi, and even as far west as New Mexico. These guys support themselves at craps - but most of the money they make goes to support the old man's church. Gambling for Jesus. You gotta like that.

And yeah, I know a couple of teams that gave it a shot and imploded - mostly due to personality issues among the team members. So it goes both ways.

Anyway, I don't want to add to the confusion here. You guys are quite capable of doing that yourselves. Mostly I just wanted to let you know that old Heavy is still out there doing the seminars, running a small but active craps forum, selling the occasional video or book, and enjoying the good life.

Last weekend I won $2K at the tables betting on the hands of students who had taken my class - including my older daughter who tossed an eight pass - thirty plus hand that stretched to the half hour mark. Who knows. Maybe one day I'll retire and she can take over the seminar business.

Speaking of that $2K win - I had pretty much the same results at my last Vegas seminar - a class Dice Coach Beau Parker and I teamed up for. And I fully expect to do it again when Beau and I team up for a Veteran's Day Craps Reveille seminar in Vegas Veteran's Day weekend.

No - no crass commercial messages. If you want to know more about any of this stuff you're going to have to Google it.

Good to see that you guys are still on the green side of the grass.

Cheers -

"Heavy"
(But seriously - I've lost weight)

Quote: heavy

Well well. It's my old buddy Mr. V. How's the ambulance chasing gig? Still got the shingle hanging out or have you retired?

I always love it when threads like this crank up, because it automatically drives a bunch of new members over to my Axis Power Craps forum. Do people who don't know me personally get some kick out of getting on line and talk smack about me? Sure. Does it bother me? Not particularly. I predict a spike in video sales as the chatter intensifies. All I ask is that you get your quotes right, give me a proper attribution and spell my name correctly. So thanks again, V. I appreciate the business.

Those of you who are naysayers on the whole dice influencing thing might benefit from reading the thread V referred to in its entirety. I think I do a fairly good job of explaining where the DI's edge comes from and why so few dice setters (probably fewer than 10%) are financially successful at the game. But hey, the topic at hand is my reference to a friend of mine - a guy who used to live right down the road from me in central Texas - who is making big money in Macau. First, let's start with my original comment on the other forum:



No, I'm not going to out the guy any (much) further than I already have. I will tell you that when he's in Asia he blends in well with the crowd. He travels to China on business frequently, which is how he made the Macau connection. He does not make close to seven figures a WEEK, as Mr. V implied. V - are you a Democrat? Just wondered based on how you're cooking the books. Anyway, this guy does make a big six figure income annually from his craps play - predominately in Macau. The locals view him as a bit of a cowboy - the guy who rides in from out of town - stops the bank robbery - gets the girl and rides off into the sunset. He plays with his own money - but the local guys bet with him and kick him a percentage. Yes, it's a sweet deal. There's not a lot of vig on money people just hand to you.

Are there other people out there making that kind of money off the tables? Sure. Are you likely to hear about them? Highly unlikely. I remember Scoblete writing about the "Lee brothers" years ago, so there's one team.

There are several pro blackjack teams around who use craps as a "cover" game. I remember one of them winning something like $800K at craps one year - so much for cover.

I know a team that plays out of Mississippi - and this is a good one - consisting of a father and his two sons. The father is an AME minister and former street hustler. He knows more crooked shots than you can shake the dice at, and he's taught them all to his boys. They play up and down the river, and occasionally get off the beaten path into places like Shreveport/Bossier, Lake Charles, Biloxi, and even as far west as New Mexico. These guys support themselves at craps - but most of the money they make goes to support the old man's church. Gambling for Jesus. You gotta like that.

And yeah, I know a couple of teams that gave it a shot and imploded - mostly due to personality issues among the team members. So it goes both ways.

Anyway, I don't want to add to the confusion here. You guys are quite capable of doing that yourselves. Mostly I just wanted to let you know that old Heavy is still out there doing the seminars, running a small but active craps forum, selling the occasional video or book, and enjoying the good life.

Last weekend I won $2K at the tables betting on the hands of students who had taken my class - including my older daughter who tossed an eight pass - thirty plus hand that stretched to the half hour mark. Who knows. Maybe one day I'll retire and she can take over the seminar business.
T
Speaking of that $2K win - I had pretty much the same results at my last Vegas seminar - a class Dice Coach Beau Parker and I teamed up for. And I fully expect to do it again when Beau and I team up for a Veteran's Day Craps Reveille seminar in Vegas Veteran's Day weekend.

No - no crass commercial messages. If you want to know more about any of this stuff you're going to have to Google it.

Good to see that you guys are still on the green side of the grass.

Cheers -

"Heavy"
(But seriously - I've lost weight)

Thank you for the info and stories about these elusive Big Foots, I mean dice controllers. It was almost entertaining.

ZCore13

Quote: heavy

He does not make close to seven figures a WEEK, as Mr. V implied. V - are you a Democrat? Just wondered based on how you're cooking the books. Anyway, this guy does make a big six figure income annually from his craps play - predominately in Macau.

Nice backpedal.

That's not what I said ("WEEK").

I said "month" because that is what YOU posted.

I quote: "I have one student who flies to Macau once a month to shoot the dice on behalf of a group of high rollers out there. I would tell you how much he makes - getting paid a percentage of what he wins - but you wouldn't believe the number. I will say that it is short of seven figures. Barely."

The IMPLICATION in your post was monthly: look at it in context; you seem to be referring to what he makes every trip to Macau, which you say is "once a month."

You also said nothing about his "close to seven figures" winnings being a blend of what he won in Macau as well as stateside.

Oh, so now this guy only makes "a big six figure income."

How close to your posted seven figures is it?

The interesting thing about the claim is that craps is not a common game in Macau, or so I am led to believe; one would think that the casinos would look closely at a guy who is cleaning their clock at a game few play there.

see Wiz's comments here

Heavy, I don't feel my post was "talking smack," and I have many years of experience with you, on these gambling boards.

This ain't our first rodeo.

Quote: MrV

The IMPLICATION in your post was monthly: look at it in context; you seem to be referring to what he makes every trip to Macau, which you say is "once a month."

No doubt my southern accent came into play once again.

I have been approached by "investors" while in the casino... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible on a larger scale.

Quote: TheWolf713

I have been approached by "investors" while in the casino... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible on a larger scale.

I have too, and unlike a lot of folks I know (or know of) I've always turned them down. Why? Because I personally believe the vig IS too high on that.

Shooting for others can get messy. The dealers are the ones who should be getting the tips. I think if you want to work for tips, you should be a dealer. If you can't make your own money playing the game, you still have more to learn.

MISSION 146 You are now the second best fiction writer on this forum !

Also, and for what it's worth, I have never been approached by investors while at the casino. It's an interesting thought that has occurred to me that, "if this DI thing is real, why wouldn't ...." etc. But never had anyone win from my shot and want to pay me to get more of my shot on their bets.

I very often have people get pissed when I refuse to shoot to win them money. I play on empty tables, and when others start betting I generally pass the dice.

Can some DI or winning craps player tell me what kind of fluctuation they may have from year to year? certainly like even the best poker players they have some big winning years and even some bad years. I would assume if DI is possible this would gold true as well. You cant tell me you guys win each and every year big. Even in proven AP like blackjack can have yearly swings. Can i get some examples of the best and worsts years.

Quote: Ahigh

I very often have people get pissed when I refuse to shoot to win them money.

What do you think might happen to the guy who LOSES a pile of one too many strangers' money?

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

What do you think might happen to the guy who LOSES a pile of one too many strangers' money?

This happens every day, so probably nothing.

This is a tough one to answer because the answer is all over the map. Influencing the outcome of the roll is a very small piece of the package. The other part is correct betting - something very few DI's manage to pull off. At blackjack it's simple. You simply adjust the size of your bet based on the composition of the deck(s). In craps, you can make just one bet - a Pass or Don't Pass wager. You can take or lay odds. You can place or lay the numbers, You can hop bet, prop bet, and throw it all in the Field. It's completely different from advantage blackjack.

You can take, for example, two different DI's - each with a 1% edge over the house on the Pass Line bet with odds. One shooter may play only the Pass Line with Odds, bet a partial Kelly, increase his bet size as his bankroll grows, and experience about the same bankroll volatility as an advantage blackjack player with a similar edge. The next shooter may play the Pass Line with less than optimal free odds, bet across, bet the Field, gamble on the hardways, press to the moon, never collect, and lose his shirt.

Quote: heavy

This is a tough one to answer because the answer is all over the map. Influencing the outcome of the roll is a very small piece of the package. The other part is correct betting - something very few DI's manage to pull off. At blackjack it's simple. You simply adjust the size of your bet based on the composition of the deck(s). In craps, you can make just one bet - a Pass or Don't Pass wager. You can take or lay odds. You can place or lay the numbers, You can hop bet, prop bet, and throw it all in the Field. It's completely different from advantage blackjack.

You can take, for example, two different DI's - each with a 1% edge over the house on the Pass Line bet with odds. One shooter may play only the Pass Line with Odds, bet a partial Kelly, increase his bet size as his bankroll grows, and experience about the same bankroll volatility as an advantage blackjack player with a similar edge. The next shooter may play the Pass Line with less than optimal free odds, bet across, bet the Field, gamble on the hardways, press to the moon, never collect, and lose his shirt.

What about yours ?

I find tracking results on an annual basis both artificial and arbitrary, but I haven't figured out a better way to do it.

I won't get into what I've done in recent years - not because of any losses, but because I simply don't want the world knowing all of my business. But if we stretch back to the late 90's and look at my play through about a ten year stretch, I can tell you I only had one losing year. That year I lost just under $1K. Back at that time my average session win was a whopping $37, a number a lot of you may scoff at. But I played around 300 sessions a year, which put my annual win at around $10K.

That's not to say that there haven't been points throughout the year where I was down $6 - $7K. It just worked out that I (almost) always managed to get back in the black by year end.

Quote: heavy

I find tracking results on an annual basis both artificial and arbitrary, but I haven't figured out a better way to do it.

I won't get into what I've done in recent years - not because of any losses, but because I simply don't want the world knowing all of my business. But if we stretch back to the late 90's and look at my play through about a ten year stretch, I can tell you I only had one losing year. That year I lost just under $1K. Back at that time my average session win was a whopping $37, a number a lot of you may scoff at. But I played around 300 sessions a year, which put my annual win at around $10K.

That's not to say that there haven't been points throughout the year where I was down $6 - $7K. It just worked out that I (almost) always managed to get back in the black by year end.

Seriously, that number wouldn't get me to take off work for that time. Id rather go to the movies, or sit on the deck and read, than grind out $37/session 300 times a year. That sounds like pure hell.

Quote: Mosca

Seriously, that number wouldn't get me to take off work for that time. Id rather go to the movies, or sit on the deck and read, than grind out $37/session 300 times a year. That sounds like pure hell.

Yes, but going to the movies won't pay the mortgage unless you're a movie critic getting paid to write a review . . . probably for a whopping .10 cents a word. Back then, 300 sessions a year at $37 a session did just that . . . paid the mortgage.

Hey, the grind certainly isn't for everyone. But I suspect there are a lot more grinders out there who are long run winners there are spread 'em and press 'em to the max winners.