Craps and Advantage Play

Is true Advantage Play possible in craps?

In theory, it could be exploited through:

dice setting, nka dice influencing;

biased dice;

telekinesis; and of course

astrology.

Am I missing anything?

non-play?

deleted

The oddsman's bet: asking the guy next to you if he minds if you make an odds bet behind his naked pass line bet.

Not true AP, but close.

Quote: MrV

Am I missing anything?

You forgot biorhythms. A real craps AP always
consults his chart before he plays for the day.

Remember, the King of Craps will be returning in a few days. Let's wait & ask him! :)

Quote: Beethoven9th

Remember, the King of Craps will be returning in a few days. Let's wait & ask him! :)

I'll be driving from Disneyland to Vegas then. I might miss the grand return! Oh darn.

I've made a ton of positive EV bets on craps, but I'm not going to spill the beans here!

I am willing to conduct a class for a small sum if anyone is interested.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Buying someones don't pass bet for even money after a point established.

Wait for somebody to lay and press the vig. Example: Somebody lays the 4 for $40, ask if you can cap it for an additional $10.

Not exactly AP though. Pretty much the same as adding to somebody non-maxed odds bet.

deleted

2000+ Posts and this ?

NO

YES... There will be time segments in which you will profit. The longer the time-segment, including sum of time-segments, of participation, the more likely the wagering will tend towards a small house advantage. As far as the rest of the examples, "your perception is your reality... not mine".

Quote: MrV

Is true Advantage Play possible in craps?

In theory, it could be exploited through:

dice setting, nka dice influencing;

biased dice;

telekinesis; and of course

astrology.

Am I missing anything?

I think you forgot cleavage. Kind of tough for a man to pull off, though. >;)

Quote: beachbumbabs

I think you forgot cleavage. Kind of tough for a man to pull off, though. >;)

On the contrary. Copious male cleavage is even MORE distracting to most men, I think.

In the past, there were some good discussions on this forum about dice control --- although at times they got hijacked and tended to twirl a bit. Rather than repeat myself, I refer you to the following:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/14266-the-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-but/#post248916

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/13499-is-dice-control-real-can-it-be-tested/

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

But doesn't that pay true odds minus the vig? The don't pays even money, but your better than even money to win.

Beat me before I could edit my post!

Quote: MrV

Is true Advantage Play possible in craps?
In theory, it could be exploited through:
dice setting, nka dice influencing;
biased dice;
telekinesis; and of course
astrology.
Am I missing anything?

Nope. Look at it from the casino's point of view. They don't much care about the sun and stars stuff, they care about blockers and electronic devices. I've seen a cheap compass being used by a casino suit, but never seen any astrology device.

The speed of the game and the integrity of the game is what the casino cares about.

Now if some individual host wants to comp a particular player at what turns that player to some technical advantage, that is the province of the marketing department and the suits don't much care about that anyway.

It is a fact that the casinos "fear" DI enough to adopt what they consider pre-emptive countermeasures, such as changing the table material to make it bouncier, building a ridge into the layout to prevent sliding, and insisting that both dice hit the back wall.

They also adopted countermeasures when it became known that card counting worked.

So, I wonder: in adopting these countermeasures, do the casinos actually believe that DI works, or are they only reacting to the claims of success circulated by its proponents?

I thought they changed the material because it's more durable and easier to print on, and it just so happens that it's also bouncier. (Can any casino people chime in here?) As for dice sliding, that's technically different from DI.

But I'm sure the King of Craps himself will have something to say about this in a few days. lol

Craps advantage play = sell books, videos and dice control seminars.

Quote: KeyserSoze

Craps advantage play = sell books, videos and dice control seminars.

I don't think you understand how little money there is in trying to sell advantage play products. It is far, far easier to sell some progression/trending system which happens to coincide with a bunch of dumb gambler's superstitions than something difficult like dice control.

The average royalty on a book is something like a dollar or so. Do the math. Lucrative it isn't. Videos are the same. It is easier to make money from gambling than it is doing these things. For a long time I had the best-selling book on baccarat-I've made more money on individual hands of baccarat than I have from all the royalties.

The high mark-up for seminars probably makes them more attractive-I don't know, I've never done it and never will, certainly not for craps anyway. That said, it would be easier to make money doing something like positive thinking or life coaching seminars, which simply require you to make vacuous non-commital statements and charge people thousands of dollars. With those, you wouldn't be limited to the gambling or craps market, you have the whole world as a potential client base.

There is some old guy in Naples, FL who passes out his cards on the various gambling boats offering his special seminars in Craps.
I guess he just needs to supplement his social security or something.

Quote: FleaStiff

There is some old guy in Naples, FL who passes out his cards on the various gambling boats offering his special seminars in Craps.
I guess he just needs to supplement his social security or something.

Does he have a lot of gambling book on Amazon?
John Patrick lives in Naples, doesn't he?

Quote:

MrV
It is a fact that the casinos "fear" DI enough to adopt what they consider pre-emptive countermeasures, such as changing the table material to make it bouncier, building a ridge into the layout to prevent sliding, and insisting that both dice hit the back wall.

They also adopted countermeasures when it became known that card counting worked.

So, I wonder: in adopting these countermeasures, do the casinos actually believe that DI works, or are they only reacting to the claims of success circulated by its proponents?

Well think about how you would react if you owned a casino or you were a craps pit supervisor, where all of a sudden there are ten different books out on becoming a DI, and you have three schools that are claiming to take millions off the craps table a year.
You may have look at their slick videos and movies that they put out, and thought that these guys were going to clean up on your tables. That's if you were so stupid about what you were watching, that you never even questioned how much editing went into making those videos and movies!

Your job is protecting the bottom line of the casinos, so you make the tables like a trampoline, knowing that it will make the dice random when anybody is shooting. You never thought to watch a video on anybody shooting the dice in slow-motion, because if you did, you would have seen that every shot that is made on a craps table is just random anyway, and you don't even have to hit the back wall to have the shot become random!

Because you were so smart, using the trampoline type tables, you cost your casino millions of dollars, because now your suits are doing nothing but chasing the dice when they go off the tables. Didn’t anybody ever tell you that the casinos make money off rolls per hour? If there is some guy that is on a roll he is just getting lucky, just like all the other random rollers, if you can’t see that everybody is random after looking at a slow motion video, there is something wrong with you!

Real DI’s,.. if that is what you want to call then make money off knowing how to bet the game and their shooting, they don’t take hundreds of thousands of dollars off the casinos every year. They don’t buy in for $2000 and walkaway with a cool half million dollars, they don’t have all these outrages rolls that our great fiction writers claim to have. Common sense would tell you that if these guys were doing what they claim they wouldn’t be writing about it. Why would you want to bring any attention to yourself if you could walk into a casino and win that kind of money?

Now on the other side of trying to sell someone on becoming a DI, you would BS everybody you could, into believing that what you are selling is the real thing. You would encourage the pathological liars that write their great fiction on the DI’s. Some of the stuff that they write is so pathetic, I don’t see how anybody that has ever played the game of craps can believe it. The craps boards that allow these great fiction writers to post their BS should be ashamed of themselves, for letting it go on. If you need to sell a school, sell something that the student can use, that will give them a chance to win, if they do get lucky. Don’t endorse some stupid bet like the $204 across, where you would need a $10,000 bank roll or more to even think about trying that bet.

In case you guys don’t know what that bet is,..it a bet were you will be paid $49 on any box number that you hit. Then you should get one or two hits and regress your bet down. The great fiction writer that is still pushing that bet, wants all the so-called DI’s to bet it on other shooters that they think are so-called DI’s. Yet he doesn’t bet it on himself, if this is the kind of leaders the DI community looks up to, I can see why the are losing their following!

Quote:

KeyserSoze
Craps advantage play = sell books, videos and dice control seminars.

Yes there is a lot of that, but you do have one or two schools that do a good job of teaching craps and their students get what they are paying for!

Everybody that knows me calls me a DI, but I will tell anybody that there is no such thing as Advantage play in craps, I can never tell when the seven is coming, it might be on the second roll or it might be on the 58th roll of the dice, oh by the way did I tell you that any so-called random roller might have a 6o roll, after all the world record in craps is held by a so-called random roller that just happens to be a grandmother that never took a class about how to throw the dice as luck would have it.

Gee I often wonder what would have happened if some DI did the same thing, we never would have heard the end of it!

When I can tell you every time that I’m going to throw a seven out and I call off my bets beforehand,... then I will say that there is such a thing as AP craps playing, until then, I guess that I’m just like everybody else out there playing on the craps tables, because I don’t have anything to sell you! .

Quote: EvenBob

John Patrick lives in Naples, doesn't he?

He lives near Tampa, in Lutz.

180 miles north of Naples.

Can I respond to the question with a question?

To what degree is the advantage in the craps advantage play?

If you are using free play coupons/chips to make even money pass/dont and come/dont bets you can argue you have an advantage -- that's not money out of your pocket.

If you are making only pass line bets with your cash you can argue that you have an advantage over the player who is making field bets.

If you make max odds bets you can argue you have an advantage over a player who makes only hop bets.

I think "advantage play" in craps needs different critieria than "advantage play" in video poker or blackjack. Different game, different criteria.

deleted

Quote: AlanMendelson

Can I respond to the question with a question?

To what degree is the advantage in the craps advantage play?

If you are using free play coupons/chips to make even money pass/dont and come/dont bets you can argue you have an advantage -- that's not money out of your pocket.

If you are making only pass line bets with your cash you can argue that you have an advantage over the player who is making field bets.

If you make max odds bets you can argue you have an advantage over a player who makes only hop bets.

I think "advantage play" in craps needs different critieria than "advantage play" in video poker or blackjack. Different game, different criteria.

Taking advantage of a PROFITABLE situation.

Perhaps someone like Ahigh is profitably playing craps with comps, free bet offers,match plays,free play, tournament offers. I bet he knows all the places that send good offers with minimal play and he hops around doing so. Obviously DI has nothing to do with it IMO

Quote: AxelWolf

Perhaps someone like Ahigh is profitably playing craps with comps, free bet offers,match plays,free play, tournament offers. I bet he knows all the places that send good offers with minimal play and he hops around doing so.

That is not the impression i got from his posts.

Quote: MrV

That is not the impression i got from his posts.

I would be willing to bet he gets offers of course someone that wants people to believe they can beat craps isn't going to be bringing that in to the picture to confuse the issue.

Quote: wudged

Wait for somebody to lay and press the vig. Example: Somebody lays the 4 for $40, ask if you can cap it for an additional $10.

Not exactly AP though. Pretty much the same as adding to somebody non-maxed odds bet.

This is brilliant! They paid the vig, you get true odds on your amount. Love it.

Logistically, not sure how it would work though. The Lay better would have to be way cool.

Can you do the same on a pass line bet? Say it is a 10X odds game, pass line bet is $5, and they only place $5 on the odds. I suppose you could add money to his odds and get true odds. This actually seems like a great idea.

Is that what you mean by non-maxed odds bet?

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. I've never tried it, because craps players have all their wacky superstitions and I can't imagine even trying to explain to somebody what I was trying to do. If you and a friend are playing together, you could easily do it though.

Quote: wudged

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. I've never tried it, because craps players have all their wacky superstitions and I can't imagine even trying to explain to somebody what I was trying to do. If you and a friend are playing together, you could easily do it though.

My wife and I always play together, but probably wouldn't make sense since it is essentially the same money. And we both are laying the same bets. I'll rethink our betting though to maximize odds and lay.

Quote:

AxelWolf
Perhaps someone like Ahigh is profitably playing craps with comps, free bet offers,match plays,free play, tournament offers. I bet he knows all the places that send good offers with minimal play and he hops around doing so.

There is no AP craps playing even with free play, match play or comps!

It cost you money to get any of those things, most player’s end-up losing money when they use them. I will never go out of my way to use any of them; it’s just a way to get you into their casino. I can walk to a few casinos so I’m not even driving out of my way, when you think about it. Hell, I could get even my exercise for the day, by walking over to one of them. If you really don’t want to play in that casino on the giving day that they want you to play on why would you go there?

Most of these so-called free anything they are giving you, have days they want you to play on. Some of the match play will be for the weekends, which I don’t play on, the other thing they do is give you free play at casinos that are all the way across the Valley.

I get to see all kinds of stupid play with these so-called free things that you think you are getting for nothing. You already paid a steep price for anything you get off a casino. Overstaying your play just so you can get a comp is just plain stupid, and if you’re a AP player you wouldn’t want the casino to know who you were, to top that off if you were any good at what you were doing, why would you need a free meal? Unfortunately when I used to come to Vegas, I didn't know any better, and got a players card in the casinos that I still play in. I don't give them a players card, but they still put me in their system when I'm playing.

If I didn't have a card or just didn't play enough in a casino, I will never get a card there. To begin with craps players don't get anything for their play anymore. If your not a high roller it's not worth it to have a players card. I get into the discussion with one of my high rolling buddies all the time about what the casinos give him to play craps. He will not come into Vegas unless they are giving him something to come in for! He bundles what the different casinos give him, most of the time he has three or four things going on every time he comes into Vegas.

I don’t buy into anybody saying look at all these free things the casinos are giving me! If you lost $2000 and got a stupid free room out of it, you would be a lot better off, just paying for the room!

If you have to go to a casino everyday, you have a gambling problem, if you’re a DI, you pick when and where you want to play, it has nothing to do with something that you were sent in the mail. I don’t know what comps I have and could care less about them. The only time I do use them is when one of our children is in town and they want a room. That way they can do what they want to do and they get to enjoy there vacation time here in Vegas. There is plenty of time that we get to spend with them, when they are here doing it that way!

Quote: slackyhacky

My wife and I always play together, but probably wouldn't make sense since it is essentially the same money. And we both are laying the same bets. I'll rethink our betting though to maximize odds and lay.

If you are both playing pass/don't/come/dc but not utilizing full odds, one of you can make the flat bet (or even each put $5 into a table minimum $10 bet) and then add on odds up to the table max.

If normally you both play $10 pass line with single odds, you could easily change it to a $10 pass line with triple odds for the same amount of money.

Quote: superrick

Quote:

AxelWolf
Perhaps someone like Ahigh is profitably playing craps with comps, free bet offers,match plays,free play, tournament offers. I bet he knows all the places that send good offers with minimal play and he hops around doing so.

There is no AP craps playing even with free play, match play or comps!

It cost you money to get any of those things, most player’s end-up losing money when they use them. I will never go out of my way to use any of them; it’s just a way to get you into their casino. I can walk to a few casinos so I’m not even driving out of my way, when you think about it. Hell, I could get even my exercise for the day, by walking over to one of them. If you really don’t want to play in that casino on the giving day that they want you to play on why would you go there?

Most of these so-called free anything they are giving you, have days they want you to play on. Some of the match play will be for the weekends, which I don’t play on, the other thing they do is give you free play at casinos that are all the way across the Valley.

I get to see all kinds of stupid play with these so-called free things that you think you are getting for nothing. You already paid a steep price for anything you get off a casino. Overstaying your play just so you can get a comp is just plain stupid, and if you’re a AP player you wouldn’t want the casino to know who you were, to top that off if you were any good at what you were doing, why would you need a free meal? Unfortunately when I used to come to Vegas, I didn't know any better, and got a players card in the casinos that I still play in. I don't give them a players card, but they still put me in their system when I'm playing.

If I didn't have a card or just didn't play enough in a casino, I will never get a card there. To begin with craps players don't get anything for their play anymore. If your not a high roller it's not worth it to have a players card. I get into the discussion with one of my high rolling buddies all the time about what the casinos give him to play craps. He will not come into Vegas unless they are giving him something to come in for! He bundles what the different casinos give him, most of the time he has three or four things going on every time he comes into Vegas.

I don’t buy into anybody saying look at all these free things the casinos are giving me! If you lost $2000 and got a stupid free room out of it, you would be a lot better off, just paying for the room!

If you have to go to a casino everyday, you have a gambling problem, if you’re a DI, you pick when and where you want to play, it has nothing to do with something that you were sent in the mail. I don’t know what comps I have and could care less about them. The only time I do use them is when one of our children is in town and they want a room. That way they can do what they want to do and they get to enjoy there vacation time here in Vegas. There is plenty of time that we get to spend with them, when they are here doing it that way!

I was pointing out just because someone plays craps with a negative expectation on the game dose not mean they don't have a small advantage. I am willing to bet there are some places you could figure out the minimum amount of play needed to get the best offers that would give you an advantage overall (not just comps) I'm talking things like Blackjack tournaments, free play ,Free bets,match plays. Not to mention dealer mistakes. Some people live in Vegas and going to a casino for free offers is well worth their time, including free shows, nice rooms, nice dinners for multiple people.

A bit off subject but how much money do you think a Hot girl playing craps (absent of a BF by her side) could make betting very little from the chips guys would be tossing her?

Advantage play craps isn't possible. It's all luck.

Today at lunch I turned $5 into $15 in dealer tips, $1 in cashier tips, and $52 for myself.

I just got lucky.

Class move Ahigh. My wife worked in cage and rarely got tips. i always tip the cashier, But with TITO and Machines, it happens less and less.

Quote: Ahigh

Advantage play craps isn't possible. It's all luck.

Today at lunch I turned $5 into $15 in dealer tips, $1 in cashier tips, and $52 for myself.

I just got lucky.

OK... When did you come to this conclusion and why? You spent the better part of the last 2700 posts talking about the possibility of DI and craps AP. Or is this some type of reverse psychology? Were you threatened by the casinos not to prove DI(: This is mostly a serious question not meant to be snarky or anything.

Quote: AxelWolf

OK... When did you come to this conclusion and why? You spent the better part of the last 2700 posts talking about the possibility of DI and craps AP. Or is this some type of reverse psychology? Were you threatened by the casinos not to prove DI(: This is mostly a serious question not meant to be snarky or anything.

People post stupid stuff on this forum all day long. Who cares if AP craps is possible? How's that for a response?

Quote: Ahigh

People post stupid stuff on this forum all day long. Who cares if AP craps is possible? How's that for a response?

I really just want to know if you REALLY no longer believe in craps AP, if not what changed your mind? truly to want to know.

Quote: Ahigh

People post stupid stuff on this forum all day long. Who cares if AP craps is possible? How's that for a response?

About what most on here would expect from you. So I will be the first to ask, why even come back if you have that attitude? You do have valuable incite to add if you wanted. Even if most, like myself don't believe in DI, your reports on casino conditions and play reports are interesting and helpful. I hope you take the high road and stay out of the petty stuff and add to the forum, but as a gambler I am betting you don't.

Quote: Boz

About what most on here would expect from you. So I will be the first to ask, why even come back if you have that attitude? You do have valuable incite to add if you wanted. Even if most, like myself don't believe in DI, your reports on casino conditions and play reports are interesting and helpful. I hope you take the high road and stay out of the petty stuff and add to the forum, but as a gambler I am betting you don't.

Look I'm not going to bust my ass to help this website be a place for people to get great information on this subject any more.

Nobody has apologized to me for the treatment I've received since I got banned.

You tell me: why should I care to work on here. Forget it! It would take several heart felt apologies before I lifted a finger to make this website any better.

I don't know if you realize it or not, but there's a 30,000+ view thread where the whole subject is to insult me. Something I thought was against the policies of this forum. But somehow that doesn't apply to me, why? Because I'm working on things related to positions that don't agree with Michael Shackleford?

It's possible that Mike's just been dead wrong all this time and doesn't want to admit that he's wrong because it would make him look bad. I don't know what the explanation is. But he has no problems letting my name be dragged through the dirt and people making accusations that I'm gay and other things that have the potential to wreck my career and marriage if they spiraled out of control.

No concern from Michael at all.

Well, I think he might be concerned if I break one of his precious rules and he'll spank me with a four month suspension or nuke me. But no concern for my well being anyway.

Why should I care how people interpret my messages about dice control on here?

Quote: Ahigh

Look I'm not going to bust my ass to help this website be a place for people to get great information on this subject any more.

Nobody has apologized to me for the treatment I've received since I got banned.

You tell me: why should I care to work on here. Forget it! It would take several heart felt apologies before I lifted a finger to make this website any better.

Who do you want an apology from and why?

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Ahigh

Look I'm not going to bust my ass to help this website be a place for people to get great information on this subject any more.

Nobody has apologized to me for the treatment I've received since I got banned.

You tell me: why should I care to work on here. Forget it! It would take several heart felt apologies before I lifted a finger to make this website any better.

Who do you want an apology from and why?

I don't WANT and apology. I merely pointed out that I don't care to work for this forum any more. I was working my ass off before for Michael's benefit.

Nobody really cares about that! Why should I?

Oh, please.

You got suspended because of the content of your posts.

Just keep cool and use your brain as a filter before posting: I have, and hey, guess what?

No more suspensions.

Get down off your cross, Aaron: that dog won't hunt.



Gee, wonder if those Roman soldiers were DIs?

Quote: Ahigh

I merely pointed out that I don't care to work for this forum any more. I was working my ass off before for Michael's benefit.

Really? Anybody want to go thru Ahighs posts here and on
his own forum and count the number of times he's said
negative things about the wiz and this forum? I don't
have the time.

I haven't been on long enough to judge Ahigh. Some of his advice seemed fine to me, but there was always some hater lurking.

HOWEVER, as an outsider, I don't get why he mentions very personal information and threatening accusations against his personal life. If that was so important to you why are you still here mentioning it for all to see.

To me, if you really cared you would have been long gone from this place. Which leaves me to believe you are an addict or you want this attention. I've been in similar scenarios, its hard to drop things like this. But eventually you get out of it, I hope you will too soon. If not, that's on you. People who aren't capable of moving on have something wrong with them.

Just my honest opinion, cheers for the future.

Thanks for your thoughts, friendlydice. It's unfortunate that everybody isn't perfect. But we all have flaws. Except Even Odds. When the point's Odd, the Odds are Even, Bob.

Back to the OP, I don't know if you would consider this advantage play or just plain cheating but craps is the only game in the casino where you can make verbal bets with the dealer while the dice are out (seconds before a roll) that are not placed on the layout for the camera to see before the dice are thrown. It's unethical, impractical and would be collusion between a you and a dealer but this is the only way I see AP or +EV game happening. I wouldn't recommend it. I mention it because for me it has happened before on accident. (Make a last minute bet that loses and the dealer then places it on a winning bet as soon as the dice are called, said something to me like "Nice call.")