REVISED SOSI Bet poll (Craps Side Bet)

THE BET IDEA HAS BEEN TAKEN DOWN

So, summed up... it's a wager whose payoff accrues in value every time a 7/11 is rolled (and can be removed, with winnings intact, after each 7/11), but loses when point is made? Or does it lose or all box numbers?

Correct, for parts two through six ... but to get there you have to start with part one.

Because parts two through six are when there is not a point established (come out rolls), it is when the point is established that it loses. So at that point any box number that is rolled, establishes the point.

During part one, it does not lose on the point being made, or on any box number being rolled (only on a crap number being rolled).

Hope that helps with your question.

So the bet is initiated after point has been established, whereupon you'd want the shooter to seven-out (or at least avoid crap numbers). Then you'd want the next shooter to repeatedly throw 7/11 during come out.

Hrm. I'm not liking the feel of that first bit. It rather has the feeling of 'Yeah, I made it! What do you mean I don't actually win anything?'

Also, it sounds a lot more complicated than most other craps sidebets. Not sure how many people would want to stare at the table long enough to learn how it works. I could picture this working out better as a hedge for a hypothetical 'darkside table' though.

After three or so times trying to read through the OP and then finally reading Venthus above, I get it.

You want the shooter to establish a point and then seven out before rolling 2/3/12 and then you are hopping the 7/11 for as many times as you want to get a large payout.

This doesn't sound very exciting to me.....I hate the 7 when I am at the table. Seven Out Seven just doesn't do it for me, sorry.

Quote: Venthus

Hrm. I'm not liking the feel of that first bit. It rather has the feeling of 'Yeah, I made it! What do you mean I don't actually win anything?'

That was a problem I had to try to figure out.

In Part One: With six possible winning rolls (the six ways to roll a seven) and only four possible losing rolls (one 2, two 3s and one 12) the only payout that could be made would be less than $1 on a $1 bet.

If the casino paid an even 2 for 1 payout (1 to 1), they would have a negative HE.

I though about saying it paid 1 for 1, but that fools nobody, and confuses most ... (just kidding).

The only solution was to have no payout being made till part two.

Part one is really just the mechanism that starts the other repeating parts of the bet.

Nothing I can do about it ... so if it is what keeps my bet from making it onto a table, which I hope it doesn't, as least I can say "I tried".

Quote: Paradigm

That doesn't sound very exciting to me.....I hate the 7 when I am at the table. Seven Out Seven just doesn't do it for me, sorry.

I hate the seven also, but I know it comes around (many times too often).

I figured this bet would give a way to possibly profit from those nasty sevens, for both right-way players and darkside players.

My thoughts on how a player could deal with and maybe take advantage of those nasty sevens is in the "METHODS OF PLAY" section that I wrote.

Not trying to change your opinon, just explaining mine.

I appreciate your comments on how confusing my explaination of the bet was ...

I rewrote it with the "BASIC INFO" first, and if people wanted to read more (assuming I now have it a bit more understandable to start with and they DO understand it) then the "ADDITIONAL INFO" is there later.

Thanks you both for your feedback, Jim

Quote: NewToCraps

During part one, a player cannot turn off, take down or reduce the bet, but they can increase it prior to a Seven-Out being rolled.

Did you take into account for the HE that players would increase their bet when the point is 4 or 10?

Quote: cowboy

Did you take into account for the HE that players would increase their bet when the point is 4 or 10?

What number the point is shouldn't affect the HE, because during part one the bet is unresolved on place numbers.

It is only the crap numbers and seven that affect the HE in part one, which with no payout there really isn't a HE for part one.

If I am starting to understand this stuff... if calculated the HE for a zero payout (1 for 1) would be 40%. Someone can confirm this if I am right, or if not, please explain what I may have done wrong in stating that.

If payouts were made in smaller than $1 increments, and the payout for part one was 1.25 for 1, the HE would be 25%, at 1.50 for 1 the HE is 10%.

The true odds (zero HE) is at 1.67 for 1.

A 2 for 1 payout is a HE of negative 20%. As I stated earlier, that is why there is no payout for part one.

Jim

I don't know if there's prior art on this, but why not just make it a bet available on each come out that accrues value on each non-box number? Easier to understand, resolves faster, wins on a lot of the same values, and doesn't have that awkward phase 1 bit.

Quote: Venthus

I don't know if there's prior art on this, but why not just make it a bet available on each come out that accrues value on each non-box number? Easier to understand, resolves faster, wins on a lot of the same values, and doesn't have that awkward phase 1 bit.

The true odds on a bet of 2,3,7,11,12 being rolled before a 4,5,6,8,9,10 is 2:1, so I think you would do better to make an any seven, yo and an any craps bet each come out.

Remember, I am NewToCraps and I may be missing something (although because of this site, I am learning).

By the way, do you currently play the Fire Bet?

Quote: NewToCraps

What number the point is shouldn't affect the HE, because during part one the bet is unresolved on place numbers.

It is only the crap numbers and seven that affect the HE in part one, which with no payout there really isn't a HE for part one.

If I am starting to understand this stuff... if calculated the HE for a zero payout (1 for 1) would be 40%. Someone can confirm this if I am right, or if not, please explain what I may have done wrong in stating that.

If payouts were made in smaller than $1 increments, and the payout for part one was 1.25 for 1, the HE would be 25%, at 1.50 for 1 the HE is 10%.

The true odds (zero HE) is at 1.67 for 1.

A 2 for 1 payout is a HE of negative 20%. As I stated earlier, that is why there is no payout for part one.

Jim

Right... My vote is: "I don't understand the bet", and I don't bet those kind of bets...

Thanks for your comments anyway.

Most people who don't bet these kind of bets wouldn't even comment, so your time spent and comments made are appreciated.

I just cannot see people getting into this kind of bet.

Quote: ontariodealer

I just cannot see people getting into this kind of bet.

Obviously I am persuing it cause I think the opposite, but I have it here to get other peoples opinions. With you being a dealer, your opinion has an experts value (I assume you deal craps).

My followup question (debate) to you would be:

Even darkside players? They are looking for sevens and not place numbers during part one of my bet, which is parellel to the bet, and then they would get the hedge on the come out roll(s) with only a minimal $1 wager.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

I'm afraid the Stay Bet is infinitely better, especially the low HE version.

Quote: Paradigm

After three or so times trying to read through the OP and then finally reading Venthus above, I get it.

You're doing better than me. I'm still a bit fuzzy.

And that in itself is a big problem. If you can't explain it quickly and have people get it quickly, then it's got no chance.

---

Also, having an unresolved bet stay on the layout after a seven out is a major problem.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Also, having an unresolved bet stay on the layout after a seven out is a major problem.

A major problem for dealers, or for the player?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

You're doing better than me. I'm still a bit fuzzy.

And that in itself is a big problem. If you can't explain it quickly and have people get it quickly, then it's got no chance.

---

Also, having an unresolved bet stay on the layout after a seven out is a major problem.

I think I've worked out a one-line summary for this at last: You ant the current shooter to seven-out before a crap and the next shooter to throw a pile of seven/yos before establishing point.

Not nearly as succinct as fire (throw as many different points as you can) or replay (keep throwing the same point), but it works..

Quote: Venthus

I think I've worked out a one-line summary for this at last: You ant the current shooter to seven-out before a crap and the next shooter to throw a pile of seven/yos before establishing point.

I may have to put your simple explaination into the OP.
Thanks for all your re-reading of it, to finally get it and then simplifying it.
I guess I can't see the forest for the trees.

PS. I'll be sure to give you credit for the translation of confusing to simple.

Quote: Venthus

I think I've worked out a one-line summary for this at last: You ant the current shooter to seven-out before a crap and the next shooter to throw a pile of seven/yos before establishing point.

Not nearly as succinct as fire (throw as many different points as you can) or replay (keep throwing the same point), but it works..

I'm 90% a right side player, and I would not think of playing this bet, because I would be rooting for a 7 out. That is my GUT REACTION.
For those times where I was playing the dark side, this could be an interesting side bet, but I'm still not sure I would play it, as it is a bit choppy. I also can't help but feel this bet will slow the table down, and kill any momentum that is building, but that is just a mind game for me.

In looking at the bet a little closer, I can see where the SOSI bet is doing nothing during the current shooter's roll. He/she can keep making points and this bet just sits there, unless a craps is rolled. So I am really hoping for a 7 out before a craps rolls, EXCEPT, a 7 out takes away a few hundred I may have out on the table in place/buy bets. Starting my SOSI bet up is going to be little consolation.

I would not play this bet at anything over 7% HE, even if I was dark siding at the time.

Quote: NewToCraps

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Also, having an unresolved bet stay on the layout after a seven out is a major problem.

A major problem for dealers, or for the player?

Both. General pit procedures as well.

What if nobody wants to be the next shooter?
What if the pit wants to close the table after the current shooter?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

What if nobody wants to be the next shooter?
What if the pit wants to close the table after the current shooter?

What if nobody wants to be the next shooter?
If I have an active SOSI Bet^sm on the table and noboby else wants to be the next shooter, I will be the next shooter.

What if the pit wants to close the table after the current shooter?
Do you have a rule in Poker for Roulette that addresses the pit wanting to close the roulette table while there are people with bets in one, two or three of the poker hand boxes?

Maybe I can use a similar rule for the SOSI Bet^sm .

My thought is that they would announce the closing of the table prior to the last shooter, such that no SOSI Bets^sm are allowed during the last shooter's rolls.

I'll offer some general observations here as a craps dealer for many many years. I'll also offer my best wishes for you in selling this idea.

My personal preference for new bets would be to keep them out of craps and blackjack, come up with new games. Games like paigow poker and let it ride were ripe for new additions to their game and these were successful. When the fire bet first came to craps, most dealers cringed. The majority of craps dealers, especially older ones will talk badly of any new ideas. The most brilliant new game in recent memory was three card poker because the majority of players believe the worse bet (pair plus) is the best bet. Never invent a new game that takes commsision, bury the vig within the game.

Keep things as simple as possible.

So my opinion of your idea is that its not simple, dealers will balk, its an addition to a traditional game and older players will be upset by it.

Again, I'm offering my opinion, not trying to be negative and hope you succeed with it.

Quote: Mission146

I'm afraid the Stay Bet is infinitely better, especially the low HE version.

I actually thought so too, but as I have tried to explain the SOSI bet in a simplier way I have come to like it more than when I originally thought of it.

The SOSI has nice payout ratios with a 6.25 % HE, which I think is a positive thing.

If I could just find a way to explain that it is not a complicated bet.

I think maybe I put too much info in the OP to try to explain every possible way to look at the bet.

Thanks for all your comments on both bets !!

Quote: NewToCraps

I may have to put your simple explaination into the OP.
Thanks for all your re-reading of it, to finally get it and then simplifying it.
I guess I can't see the forest for the trees.

PS. I'll be sure to give you credit for the translation of confusing to simple.

Two further thoughts:
1. Don't worry about giving me credit, especially in the original post. It's kind of... text-heavy as it is. (Another upshot: Can reword it for clarity. I was typing that on a bumpy car ride, so I was more interested in getting it out, than in optimal clarity.)
2. Stick it in something like a quote box to make it stand out a little more. As said before, it's a very imposing looking post, and if people can't figure out what the bet is in a few seconds, even in an incomplete, summarized form, the odds of being automatically passed over increase dramatically.

(And I think this was asked before-- I do, occasionally, depending on how I feel about the table, play Fire. I actually prefer Replay though, which I've only seen at The Orleans. Doesn't hurt that I've actually gone up to about 6 on Replay either, whereas I've never hit a fourth point with Fire.)