New Bet for Craps

After thinking of a multi-roll bet that can benefit a Don't and Pass-line player, here is what I've come up with.

Resolve Bet™

The Resolve Bet™ is a new bet that can be added to the game of Craps or Crap-less Craps. This bet wins when the point is resolved on a specific roll. A point is resolved when the point is made, or when a seven-out occurs.

This bet is to be initially bet on the come-out roll. A player’s Resolve Bet™ wins, if the point is resolved on the number of roll that is equal to the point itself. Examples: 5 is the point, the point must be resolved on the 5th roll after the point was established; 8 is the point, the point must be resolved on the 8th roll after the point was established; etc.

A player’s Resolve Bet™ loses if the point isn't resolved on the number of roll that is equal to the point itself. Example: 6 is the point, the point is resolved on the 4th roll after the point was established.

If a player’s Resolve Bet™ loses, because the number of roll needed for the Resolve Bet™ to win, has been completed without the point being resolved, that player can re-bet a new Resolve Bet™ before the next roll occurs. Example: 4 is the point, the 4th roll has been completed and the point hasn't been resolved yet, all Resolve Bets lose, and all players that had a wagered Resolve Bet™ can re-bet one now, before the next roll. The re-bet Resolve Bets win, if the point is resolved on the 4th roll after the re-bets were placed; if not they lose.

When a Resolve Bet is re-bet mid-roll, the counting of the rolls starts over, counting from the first roll after the re-bets have been placed. A player’s re-bet Resolve Bet™ can’t exceed said player’s previous Resolve Bet™. Players can continue re-betting Resolve Bets mid-roll, if their previous Resolve Bet™ loses, if its loss is due to the number of roll needed, for the Resolve Bet™ to win, has been completed without the point being resolved.

Pay-table for Craps
Point of 4 - 8 to 1
Point of 5 - 11 to 1
Point of 6 - 17 to 1
Point of 8 - 35 to 1
Point of 9 - 40 to 1
Point of 10 - 50 to 1

Pay-table for Crap-less Craps
Point of 2 - 5 to 1
Point of 3 - 6 to 1
Point of 4 - 8 to 1
Point of 5 - 11 to 1
Point of 6 - 17 to 1
Point of 8 - 35 to 1
Point of 9 - 40 to 1
Point of 10 - 45 to 1
Point of 11 - 50 to 1
Point of 12 - 55 to 1

Payouts are mostly Roulette payouts, and they work great for house edge..

House edge should be between 10.6-10.7% if my math is correct..

Hit frequency around 5%...


© O'Brien

Well I see the don't like votes, curious as to your reasoning... Maybe they can be improved or maybe it's not relayed correctly enough..

This side bet might be viewed as:
1. As a side bet, not particularly crap-game related, unlike some of the side bets we've seen that perform some crap game function, like an easy parlay on a hardways bet, etc. It also has a low hit frequency.

2. A busy crap game is 100% all out hectic to operate. This might not be easy to deal. Dealers will groan.

3. A Player can hop the point number with or without a red bet, a variable number of rolls into the round in any case.

Quote: Paigowdan

3. A Player can hop the point number with or without a red bet, a variable number of rolls into the round in any case.

True, but let's say the point becomes 9. Player hops the 9's $1 each and the 7's $1 each, right before the 9th roll. What does he win for his $5 in action, he could win $11 or $16 and down. If that player bet $1 in the beginning on the Resolve bet, that player can win $41 and down for that dollar.

True, it pays more, stemming from the come out roll.
But the hop bets to do this have a higher hit frequency in return. 8/36, - or 22% - or 1 in 4.5 tries, for a point of 5 or 9.

The really important thing is what the side bet mechanism gives you.
The Fire bet, All Tall/Small, and Replay bet power up a hot table, like turning on the afterburners on a jet engine. These bets work.
The resolve bet is a one-point bet with a low hit frequency.

Aligning the point number to the number of rolls needed to make it is very arbitrary, and completely unrelated to any win/lose mechanism in the game, even a tad "OC," ....the point is ten, - so now I HAVE to do it in EXACTLY ten rolls. Not less, not more....exactly ten rolls. I think of the movie Rain man, not meaning to be harsh. And the dealers will have to track the rolls with lammers, so surveillance and the floor can also track it.

There are so many bets in craps that any new bet has to be a blockbuster, a eureka moment, like....I FOUND it - the LOST CHORD! kind of moment. (start at 0:53 into the video...) Gamblers will have to say, "Dude, that's awesome, I've GOT to play it!" It's VERY hard for a game designer to be objective on one of his kids.

For a new bet to take off, Everything has to fall into place:
- a catchy mechanism that helps the game. Not "another bet for the game," but a true addition that fits into the game's play style.
- a good hit frequency
- easy to deal
- easy to learn
- appropriate house edge (and 10% for a double-digit payout is common, although "sharpies" here will just wail....)
- patent
- math reports
a perfect storm of detailed game work and interested buyers. Not easy.

The dealers already have to keep track of the Fire or the All Small/Tall and Both wagers. Keeping track of this one as well would be a nightmare.

"That was the 9th roll. I win ! I win!"

"No sir, that was the 8th roll."

"B.S.! I demand you play the tape back!"

It's basically a 1 in 20 chance of winning, a little investment in the beginning to win a lot potentially down the road. Your alls and fire have a lot lower hit frequency. Also, there is strategy on when to make re-bets, these are done after knowing the point and knowing the odds upfront. Let's say 4 become the point, and the 4th roll went by without the point being resolved. Any player that had a Resolve bet to begin with can choose to re-bet it. Knowing 4 is the point the 4 will have a house edge of 5% and have a 1 in 9 chance of winning.

Quote: cowboy

The dealers already have to keep track of the Fire or the All Small/Tall and Both wagers. Keeping track of this one as well would be a nightmare.

"That was the 9th roll. I win ! I win!"

"No sir, that was the 8th roll."

"B.S.! I demand you play the tape back!"

You are obviously not in the biz Cowboy. The layout will be adequately marked and disc will be moved after each roll. When the Alls was started they were laughed at. Now look at their success. How many times during a day does a boxperson say what rolled, did we roll that???? These bets wouldn't be on those games..

Quote: allinriverking

You are obviously not in the biz Cowboy. The layout will be adequately marked and disc will be moved after each roll. When the Alls was started they were laughed at. Now look at their success. How many times during a day does a boxperson say what rolled, did we roll that???? These bets wouldn't be on those games..

Cowboy does have a point: more work for the dealers means more chance of error in their work. And the errors often come from players who were simply and honestly mistaken about the number of rolls occurring. Players will make claims.

But this is a factor in all new bets. Making a new bet as easy as possible to deal is one goal of a game designer. This bet would be good for the automatic 'Bubble Crap Machines' and the like.

I feel your frustration about having an idea that from your perspective is very sellable, but don't seem to get a good response on this site.

I put two new Craps side bets out last week thinking I may have something sellable, but got hit hard with reasons why it would not fly.

Best of luck with it.

PS my thoughts: Without doing any math and I would be looking at it from a recreational players perspective rather than an experienced player as most are here ...

It seems like it could be real hard to get to the larger numbers with a Resolve Bet^TM that it might discourage me from playing it.

The idea is very UNIQUE though, and having gone back to your earlier thread when you had the three ideas ... this is the best of the three.

Jim

Quote: allinriverking

You are obviously not in the biz Cowboy. The layout will be adequately marked and disc will be moved after each roll. When the Alls was started they were laughed at. Now look at their success. How many times during a day does a boxperson say what rolled, did we roll that???? These bets wouldn't be on those games..

The difference is that with Bonus Craps, you're working toward something. The more lammers you see being moved, the happier you get. You can't lose after you've won. With your bet, you can, and I think players would hate that.

Frankly, I think Bonus Craps has its drawbacks too, but it at least gives you a sense of progress and a finish line. I think players would prefer working toward a win condition and, if achieved, then toward another one with a higher payout. The Fire Bet accomplishes that nicely -- 4 different points is one payout, 5 is a higher one, etc. As to your game, I don't think there would be much of a market, and frankly the win conditions seem arbitrary. I don't understand why a craps player would associate the point number with a number of rolls.

is there a website with more info and such?

Quote: MathExtremist

The difference is that with Bonus Craps, you're working toward something. The more lammers you see being moved, the happier you get. You can't lose after you've won. With your bet, you can, and I think players would hate that.

You can't lose my bet once you have won it...

Quote: NewToCraps

It seems like it could be real hard to get to the larger numbers with a Resolve Bet^TM that it might discourage me from playing it.

The 10 is the hardest to win on in with the Craps version. It has a 1.8% hit frequency and pays 50 to 1

When I sat down to come up with a bet in which could win regardless if the point was made or if it sevened-out. This bet accomplishes that. The fact is, the point will more than likely be resolved before the roll needed to win is reached. Players will hardly have to re-bet this bet mid-roll. It sets a target roll in which the point needs to be resolved on. By making the target roll equal to the point itself, is easy to remember what the target roll is, while allowing different target rolls. It adds a different type of excitement, by wanting to make the point but not too soon but not too late either, or if a don't player wanting the seven-out to occur not too soon or too late. The emphasis is placed on when the point is resolved, not how it's resolved. Very different from all other Craps bets out there. Gives a new way to gamble on the same ole game of two dice...

Quote: NewToCraps

I feel your frustration about having an idea that from your perspective is very sellable, but don't seem to get a good response on this site.

I put two new Craps side bets out last week thinking I may have simething sellable, but git hit hard with reasons why it would not fly.

Best of luck with it.

PS my thoughts: Without doing any math and I would be looking at it from a recreational players perspective rather than an experienced player as most are here ...

It seems like it could be real hard to get to the larger numbers with a Resolve Bet^TM that it might discourage me from playing it.

The idea is very UNIQUE though, and having gone back to your earlier thread when you had the three ideas ... this is the best of the three.

Jim

NewToCraps,
I was going to just read the forum and resist from logging in and forming an opinion.
You need to realize that becoming a new member on here and acting as you do makes me look bad(as a new member)as well as all new members.
Your fingers must have diahrea based on the posts that you have made.
Sometimes it is good to just shut up and listen, thats why we have 2 ears and 1 mouth.
Please stop being an attention whore and contribute to this forum rather than making a post and then making a new post that talks about the original post.
These forum members are not out to get you,and neither am I.
The reason they beat you up on here is the constant redundant posts you make.
No Hard feelings man.

KB1

Quote: allinriverking

You can't lose my bet once you have won it...

Well, yes, very true, but some of the "juice" - player appeal - of All Tall bet, the Fire bet, and the Replay bet, etc., - is that you've not only won big, but you're on a ride to win even more, and you love the ride.

It's that journey that puts you into that "Win Zone Ride" with these "journey bets" that make them so incredibly appealing. You're locked in on a winning "plateau" heading towards a known "big win climax," - so to speak, really. Not meaning to sound off-putting here, the excitement in these "journey bets" are almost of a sexual nature: a long, smoldering, hot roll locks you into on a winning plateau - the ZONE with a hot shooter - to a climax that keeps on building. I was a dice dealer, and I called all 6 points with the fire bet maxed out on three occasions.

Crap players SEEK to hook into positive-side GOOD and LONG dice journeys, and a smart new crap game bet knows this and does this.

MathExtremist's "Hard Pass" bets incorporate this feature from the moment a point is declared with a hard number. You're locked in the action once a point gets up the hard way. You own the bettor.

Paigowdan,

You are correct in that, but those bets take too long to resolve. My bets are resolved every time the point is resolved, if not sooner, with the ability to wager the bet again. Given the players a sense of value on that bet, because it stays up awhile still. Also, if these bets are won, it can help a player offset their passline bet if the seven-out occurs on the right roll, or opposite that and offset a player's don't bet if the point is made on the right roll. A built in hedge bet for both type bettors, all for a small amount and bet before the point is known. This bet isn't designed to win a fortune. It's what dice players do hedge their bets. A craps bet here or there or a 7 or 11 for don't players coming out. This is more for a built in hedge that can over a decent payout, half of which pay greater than any one roll bet and lower house edge than roll bets...

I see your arguments, but it doesn't feel right, or jibe with how I, - or many, - play dice.
Not saying here you don't know dice.
The math is right, and the concept mathematically clean.
It just doesn't "hook into dice" as to how it's played, MO.

The voting on it is rough, and says a lot. I know it's your kid.

You have to have an open mind. Like I had to when I first heard about the all talls, and that boxmen were going to have to keep track. It seemed unnatural to me and weird to keep track of what rolled each roll. But after dealing it a couple years now, it feels normal now. A bet that you keep track of number of rolls, instead of what rolls, is not as strange as you think, especially once you see it working. It is very easy to track and not forget what roll your on. The players aren't going to let you forget to mark one, because if they do it may backfire on them.

Quote: Paigowdan

The voting on it is rough, and says a lot. I know it's your kid.

Actually I shouldn't of done poll, because people aren't explaining why. Oh it's terrible because you have to track number of rolls that occurred. Well that's easier than keeping track of what rolls each roll, and those bets have had great results. I understand big juice. Just because the bet is designed to offer players a way to possibly hedge their bet instead of a huge payoff, doesn't differ as to keeping track for any type of bets and the work associated with the popular bets now. HE is lower than most bets out there. Alls has a much lower hit frequency, as does fire than my bets.

I do, really, but I answer to gaming bosses who are strict on everything. It has to look like a chalky to get green-lighted.

I think it is both interesting and novel. I also think it is rough to deal (I'm an ex crap dealer), and doesn't flow 100% with the flow of the underlying game.

PM me, and I'll give you a list of casinos and contacts who will/may try independent games.

(duplicate)

Quote: allinriverking

Pay-table for Craps
Point of 4 - 8 to 1
Point of 5 - 11 to 1
Point of 6 - 17 to 1
Point of 8 - 35 to 1
Point of 9 - 40 to 1
Point of 10 - 50 to 1

Pay-table for Crap-less Craps
Point of 2 - 5 to 1
Point of 3 - 6 to 1
Point of 4 - 8 to 1
Point of 5 - 11 to 1
Point of 6 - 17 to 1
Point of 8 - 35 to 1
Point of 9 - 40 to 1
Point of 10 - 45 to 1
Point of 11 - 50 to 1
Point of 12 - 55 to 1

Why would the 10 pay differently in Craps vs Crapless when the odds are the same? Maybe because the house won't make much on 12s?

Here's what I calculate for the "real odds":

Point of 2 - Pays 5 to 1, Real 6.38 to 1
Point of 3 - Pays 6 to 1, Real 7.44 to 1
Point of 4 - Pays 8 to 1, Real 9.48 to 1
Point of 5 - Pays 11 to 1, Real 13.23 to 1
Point of 6 - Pays 17 to 1, Real 20.26 to 1
Point of 8 - Pays 35 to 1, Real 42.02 to 1
Point of 9 - Pays 40 to 1, Real 48.63 to 1
Point of 10 - Pays 45 to 1, Real 53.27 to 1
Point of 11 - Pays 50 to 1, Real 55.55 to 1
Point of 12 - Pays 55 to 1, Real 55.48 to 1

Since you bet on the come-out, you won't know if you're going to be stuck with an 8, 9 or 10.

Cowboy,

Because I wanted the house edge to be as close as possible to each other. Actually the player has an advantage slightly for the 12.

Looks like a very slight disadvantage to me.

it wins 1 in 55.48 times. which means the house will keep 54.48 and pay the winning 1, 55. leaving the house with -.52.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

This is the payout table I was originally going to use:

Point of 2 - Pays 3 to 1, Real 6.38 to 1
Point of 3 - Pays 4 to 1, Real 7.44 to 1
Point of 4 - Pays 5 to 1, Real 9.48 to 1
Point of 5 - Pays 10 to 1, Real 13.23 to 1
Point of 6 - Pays 15 to 1, Real 20.26 to 1
Point of 8 - Pays 45 to 1, Real 42.02 to 1
Point of 9 - Pays 50 to 1, Real 48.63 to 1
Point of 10 - Pays 55 to 1, Real 53.27 to 1
Point of 11 - Pays 60 to 1, Real 55.55 to 1
Point of 12 - Pays 65 to 1, Real 55.48 to 1

8-12 all have a negative house edge, total HE for the Craps version is 8.3% and Crapless is 8.8%.

I think math guys can buy a difference of one to two points between "pays" and "real". If that was done uniformly, I wonder what the house edge would be. FREX drop the fractions and pay real minus 2.

Admittedly it would look counter-intuitive on the 11 and 12 in crapless. Might have to leave 12 at 55-1.

You know, instead of tracking all the various point numbers and payouts, just make any point number that hits in its "point number of rolls" pay 20:1, or its best payout.

Bet a nickel, win $100 or $150 from the come out. Simple. Like a one-point Fire bet. This would sell better.

Quote: Paigowdan

You know, instead of tracking all the various point numbers and payouts, just make any point number that hits in its "point number of rolls" pay 20:1, or its best payout.

Bet a nickel, win $100 from the come out. Simple. Like a one-point Fire bet. This would sell better.

That's a different bet because FREX with a point of 4 the Resolve Bet wins on the devil if it is the fourth roll.

If you remove the odds of getting a 7 on the "point number of rolls", the odds change dramatically and I doubt 20 to 1 is an attractive bet.

Quote: Paigowdan

You know, instead of tracking all the various point numbers and payouts, just make any point number that hits in its "point number of rolls" pay 20:1, or its best payout.

Bet a nickel, win $100 from the come out. Simple.

I want the negative house edge on the high numbers, not the low numbers, due to being able to re-bet after the point is already known, because then the house edge is based on the already known point when the re-bets are placed, and a player would know to re-bet or not based on if a negative HE is for that point.

Quote: cowboy

That's a different bet because FREX with a point of 4 the Resolve Bet wins on the devil if it is the fourth roll.

If you remove the odds of getting a 7 on the "point number of rolls", the odds change dramatically and I doubt 20 to 1 is an attractive bet.

You remove the seven-out, and just make it a positive bet, with a single great payout.
Dealers would then like it, being simpler.
Players would like it being simpler.
Players would like it, paying large.
No fuss, no muss, - a one-roll Fire bet.
You can give a bonus on a point of "8 or more," make it a two-level payout.

But keep it real simple and real generous: "Just hit your point in the same number of rolls, and get 20:1" and be done with it. A One-point fire bet.

Now THAT might work.

This would entice a player to make the wager if the past points have all been low. Also, if the player has $5 bet on this bet on come-out and point becomes 8, and the 8th roll occurs without the point being resolved their original resolve bet loses, but they may be more apt to re-bet knowing the house edge is a negative one now. That's why their re-bet can't be for more than their original resolve bet that point.

Quote: allinriverking

This would entice a player to make the wager if the past points have all been low.

So what. Let it. Dice have no memory. For that matter, it might entice some players seeing a trend.

Quote: allinriverking

Also, if the player has $5 bet on this bet on come-out and point becomes 8, and the 8th roll occurs without the point being resolved their original resolve bet loses, but they may be more apt to re-bet knowing the house edge is a negative one now. That's why their re-bet can't be for more than their original resolve bet that point.

You are rationalizing and intellectualizing too much here. This is a crap bet, not an episode of Sex in the City, or a Woody Allen movie. Real crap players can't read this script.

LOSE this re-bet feature, along with the messy pay tables. It complicates the bet, and it blows; it complicates the game, and disrupts the game. Nobody gets it or likes it. You saw the voting on your game. Keep it SIMPLE! I mean REAL simple, if you want to add it to a crap game.

Do You want this bet of yours to work??!!
Keep it amazingly SIMPLE - with a GOOD payout.

Easy to deal,
Easy to learn,
Easy to bet,
Great payout.

That's how you get action, - and your side bet game invention sold.

"Bet $1 to $5 on the come out roll, and if it hits in the same number of rolls as the point - you get 20:1! Bet a Nickel and win a Hundred!" (ME, do the math).

A One-point Fire bet.
That's the pitch.
In looking at the cross-eyed pay tables of your first version, no one would play that one. No dealer would deal it.
They may play this.

Trust me. This is your best shot.

The math says this (Paigowdan's) would be the worst bet you could possibly make. It makes the sucker bets look good.

Here's the real odds:

4 - 28.44 to 1
5 - 33.08 to 1
6 - 44.58 to 1
8 - 92.44 to 1
9 - 121.58 to 1
10 - 159.82 to 1

On the up side, if it was mandatory to have it, the Casinos would like it.

That's not the real odds. Not as a single result bet with one payout.

I didn't do the math, didn't pretend to, and wasn't going to on the response. I was illustrating that the bet should be a single-concept, single payout bet, like a one-point fire bet.

Fine, let's say it pays 2:1 or 5,000:1.

Or 47:1, whatever, now. The gimmick has to be good.

What you are illustrating is that it takes some thought to come up with these new bet ideas in the first place, and they deserve more respect than ideas that have no thought behind them.

BTW single result with one pay-out is 54.02 to 1. So 50 to 1 would work.

Quote: cowboy

What you are illustrating is that it takes some thought to come up with these new bet ideas in the first place, and they deserve more respect than ideas that have no thought behind them.

Let's talk about respect and the concept of a sound gaming idea, cowboy, for a moment: Now, the original bet had little thought or experience behind it aside from:

I agree, 50:1 would work on 54:1 true odds, for around 8% HE. He was nowhere near this, neither was I when posting, as I didn't even touch the math. IF it is a one payout, one mechanism bet, -which would surely give it the needed simplification this bet demanded to work, and that I said he should look at. But there were other game-play issues with it....

1. A bizarre betting scheme where you win ONLY WHEN you hit the point in EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER OF ROLLS that the point number happens to be. This is akin to "Step on a crack, break your mother's back - what was it, nine rolls, was it? We got to what roll count now??" Crap players may say WTF.

2. A complex pay table that no player or dealer would memorize or would carry out on a live game. (Fixed by you and me.)

3. A low hit frequency of 1 in 50 hits. Still an issue on the game for a short life bet. But HEY - the next come out is the next opportunity.

4. A bet that can be duplicated by making the exact hop bets to hit the point when the "point" is supposed to hit in the same number of steps - and with a better hit frequency. NO WHERE in playing craps do you count the rolls to a point, or from a point, without appearing arbitrary, if not obsessive-compulsive.

5. No possible way to easily deal this side bet, - or to pitch it to a normal casino customer. Game controls and lammers would have to be used for a bet few would play, and it is highly unlikely that this game will make it.

Now Look, Cowboy, people had been quite polite on this side bet for a long while, and in spite of the fact that the voting on this side bet declared that this side bet is lame, and for some very valid and practical gaming reasons given.

The sad fact of the matter is when a newbie game designer tries his first attempt at a game design, it may not do well at all, and he may be told it is not salable in a very frank forum such as this, and to try to simplify it to reasonably mimic a FAR more successful model - like the Fire bet.

Now, AllInRiverKing has been protesting valid criticism of his fairly weak game design, and fighting suggestions to make his game better and cleaner, - like to simplify it into an easy-to-deal, easy-to-learn, easy-to-play relative of the successful Fire bet - like a One-Point Fire bet....

...Well, that might actually be his best shot in the real gaming world at success. And I said so, because I see the best version of this bet as THAT. As in, his only real shot. Tell me with a straight face his original version has a shot. It doesn't.

I say this because I would like to see him have some success by simplifying his game and clean up his game, - and by the suggestions given.

The gaming world isn't going to be kind to him because he's another bloke with a new side bet.

The worst thing anyone could do here would be to patronize him, in this hard and virtually next-to-impossible endeavor, Cowboy.
I for one won't do that.
Now, if you want to do that, then you can install his bet into your casino, - without any clean-up, without math, and without a patent, as it is presented here, and with the votes it got from real gamblers. You wanna be his night in shining amour, you do that.

But I for one think, - and for his game to have any shot, he's got to clean it up, simplify it, and make it viable. I like the one payout, one method I suggested to make it a one-point type of Fire bet, and it helps. But there is a long road to the casino floor, and mincing words or being a "knight in shining armor defending a knave' isn't the routine. It is telling him what it takes without mincing words, without worry about feelings, but seeing that it gets done.

About your point 4 - both the original and your suggestion require it.

Quote: Paigowdan

Let's talk about respect and the concept of a sound gaming idea, cowboy, for a moment: Now, the original bet had little thought or experience behind it aside from:

I agree, 50:1 would work on 54:1 true odds, for around 8% HE. He was nowhere near this, neither was I when posting, as I didn't even touch the math. IF it is a one payout, one mechanism bet, -which would surely give it the needed simplification this bet demanded to work, and that I said he should look at. But there were other game-play issues with it....

1. A bizarre betting scheme where you win ONLY WHEN you hit the point in EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER OF ROLLS that the point number happens to be. This is akin to "Step on a crack, break your mother's back - what was it, nine rolls, was it? We got to what roll count now??" Crap players may say WTF.

Would that be similar to how a yo works or hop bet, the outcome must happen exactly that roll or it loses.

Quote: Paigowdan

2. A complex pay table that no player or dealer would memorize or would carry out on a live game. (Fixed by you and me.)

No harder payout to remember than Let it ride, Mississippi stud and other carny games.

Quote: Paigowdan

3. A low hit frequency of 1 in 50 hits. Still an issue on the game for a short life bet. But HEY - the next come out is the next opportunity.

Overall hit frequency is 1 in 21, all small tall is 1 in 37 and others are worse the 12 or 2.

Quote: Paigowdan

4. A bet that can be duplicated by making the exact hop bets to hit the point when the "point" is supposed to hit in the same number of steps - and with a better hit frequency. NO WHERE in playing craps do you count the rolls to a point, or from a point, without appearing arbitrary, if not obsessive-compulsive.

As arbitrary and obsessive compulsive as tracking how many different numbers roll as in alls bets.

Quote: Paigowdan

5. No possible way to easily deal this side bet, - or to pitch it to a normal casino customer. Game controls and lammers would have to be used for a bet few would play, and it is highly unlikely that this game will make it.

Pitch it as, get the point of 4 to be resolved on 4th roll get paid, get the point of 5 to be resolved on the 5th roll get paid, and so on.

What other bets on Craps, can allow a player the chance to place a re-bet wager, that gives the player the advantage? This one does that.

Quote: allinriverking

What other bets on Craps, can allow a player the chance to place a re-bet wager, that gives the player the advantage? This one does that.

You've vigorously defended your new bet concept, but the members here are not the ones you need to sell on the concept. You're a dealer, right? What does your casino management think of the idea?

Quote: allinriverking

What other bets on Craps, can allow a player the chance to place a re-bet wager,
that gives the player the advantage? This one does that.

It is not intuitive and IMO,
99,999 out of 100,000 craps players
would not care if it had an advantage or not, house edge means nothing, just nice payoffs and hit rates... the feeling that
one CAN win making the bet is what matters to players.

I remembered a few other of your Craps bets kind of, and did not look again at them.
The mini points I remember.

So, I quickly set this up so WinCraps can make and track the bets for me
and lost 27 bets in a row (a few re-bets too) and hit the 9 on the 9th roll. 40 to 1 to net 13.
Yeah!
Next hit was after 63 losses (ouch) and it was the 4 on the first 4 rolls (7out) 8 to 1 but a net loss of 55
(total net loss of 68)
Next hit was after 18 losses and another 4 (7out)

when players lose too much for what they think they should lose, (I thought I should have won more times)
why keep betting?
I did just fine on the pass with 345X odds and I guess I would not be making these bets again.
That is just me.
Too low hit rate for me in my short play for the top pay
(I would rather see something around 100 to 1)

IMO, would be OK to add to an electronic game or even an online version
(the bet would most likely be for a max $5 as onlines do not even like large max bets at craps, the ones I have seen)

Good Luck and thanks for the info

IMHO, this bet has no shot except in the simple form that Dan has presented. I could go into the reasons why I believe this to be true, but no one is listening, so it isn't worth investing the time.

Even as a solo bet, if you are an operator, what is your incremental revenue going to be putting this simplified, single, Fire type bet on your felt? Likely not worth the cost of training your dealer's and players to play it.

Quote: allinriverking

Would that be similar to how a yo works or hop bet, the outcome must happen exactly that roll or it loses.

No it would not, as it is not a one-roll bet like a yo bet or hop bet. It is a variable roll bet, and where you now have to track the rolls for this added new game. A surveillance member, dealer, or player should be able to just look at a crap table's layout and bets and know exactly where they are in the game. You can't with this new game, without an added tracking mechanism.

Quote: allinriverking

No harder payout to remember than Let it ride, Mississippi stud and other carny games.

Let it ride, Mississippi stud, and other carny games are their own single, full games unto themselves, and so are possible to deal by themselves. And that's the problem, you don't want to add another full game on top of a game that is already at its deal-ability limit. You want to add something that fits right in and asks nothing, or very little, to add it to the game.

Quote: allinriverking

Overall hit frequency is 1 in 21, all small tall is 1 in 37 and others are worse the 12 or 2.

"Is the bet fun, and related to the base game" is the question. These existing bets are easy to track, and are a natural part of the existing game.

Quote: allinriverking

As arbitrary and obsessive compulsive as tracking how many different numbers roll as in alls bets.

No. Creating a bet that is based on the number of rolls matching a point number is alien to the game. Doesn't mean it's bad, doesn't mean it's good, but it is a very "non crap game" thing to do on a crap game. It's a bit like, "I was born in June...so let me hop the point on the 6th roll out."

Quote: allinriverking

Pitch it as, get the point of 4 to be resolved on 4th roll get paid, get the point of 5 to be resolved on the 5th roll get paid, and so on.

This is very good, I like this, it is a good an easy pitch, - and is a positive thing about this side bet.

Quote: MathExtremist

You've vigorously defended your new bet concept, but the members here are not the ones you need to sell on the concept. You're a dealer, right? What does your casino management think of the idea?

This is a great test: if casino management puts it in, and it gets action and helps both the hold (win) and drop (revenue), you know it is a good game, at least for one busy casino. Once installed, the next installs usually follow.

Quote: Paradigm

IMHO, this bet has no shot except in the simple form that Dan has presented. I could go into the reasons why I believe this to be true, but no one is listening, so it isn't worth investing the time.

Paradigm, thanks.
I would sign up, or at least give a green light to this game in an easy-to-implement, easy to deal form. I like the concept of a one-roll fire bet IF super easy.
I would reject it out of hand in a cumbersome form.
This is actually my job in the gaming industry, to review, analyze, update, and green-light new games at a manufacturer, along with our own internally-designed games.

Quote: Paradigm

Even as a solo bet, if you are an operator, what is your incremental revenue going to be putting this simplified, single, Fire type bet on your felt? Likely not worth the cost of training your dealer's and players to play it.

I will say it would be very tough to sell this as an additional bet in areas where the casino dice tables already have some proprietary side bet on it. No operator will pay for two vendors on the same game if they can help it. makes it tough.

Quote: MathExtremist

You've vigorously defended your new bet concept, but the members here are not the ones you need to sell on the concept. You're a dealer, right? What does your casino management think of the idea?

I will add that:
1. the members here ARE some of the people you need to sell it to. This is a gamblers' forum with a lot of crap players and gaming industry people. The vote tally may give somewhat of a pulse on the game.
2. Game designers should have LOTS of games. One doesn't work out, try the next, hone your skills - move on.

Eric Clapton threw more than a few song compositions into the fireplace to focus on "Leyla," "Tears in heaven," and "Badge."

Quote: Paigowdan

I will add that:
1. the members here ARE some of the people you need to sell it to. This is a gamblers' forum with a lot of crap players and gaming industry people. The vote tally may give somewhat of a pulse on the game.
2. Game designers should have LOTS of games. One doesn't work out, try the next, hone your skills - move on.

That's all true, but there are less than five out of thousands of members who (a) are sufficiently active to read these threads and (b) have the authority to license a game from an inventor. You're one of them, and you've made it abundantly clear what you think of the concept.

Do you think more or less of the idea after being debated? Were the OP's arguments persuasive or were they a turnoff?