Fire Bet Error

I played some craps at a casino with the fire bet last week. New shooter made the point of 6 and on my side of the table the dealer correctly put the first fire bet marker on the 6. When the point was made a new dealer came to the table and the base dealer on the other side of the table left.

Same shooter rolls another 6 on the come out and then makes the 6 again. But I glance over to the other side of the table and see that the new dealer is adding the fire bet marker to the 6 -- and the first fire bet marker was on the 5.

Stickman says to the dealer on my side: fix your fire bet.

And the dealer on my side pushes the first fire bet marker to the 5, and adds the second to the 6.

I know this is wrong, and I said something.

The floorman was watching but didn't say anything. But I just had to.

That's when my dealer said "that's right. Point of 6 hit twice." And he looks at me and says "yes, I set you up for 130 across. It would have been 135 if the point were 5."

Floorman nods his approval and gives me a little smile.

This interruption didn't "stop" the shooter. He went on to make four more passes (sixes and nines, no firebet payoff).

Question: if I had "let it go" and didn't bring attention to the error, and the shooter went on to get the "fire bet" with the bogus "5" would the eye have caught it?

Beats me but it seems the dealers box man and floor were all happy with your performance and that the other players should have been happy too. You were succinct but raised the issue and stood your ground politely.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Question: if I had "let it go" and didn't bring attention to the error, and the shooter went on to get the "fire bet" with the bogus "5" would the eye have caught it?

That depends on how many numbers were hit.

Most casinos only review the tape when the shooter hits all six. And this shuts the table for an extended period which is why some casinos get rid of the Fire Bet.

If the shooter didn't hit all six numbers. then the only way the eye will fix it is if they noticed the error. Or if they noticed the delay in getting the markers on the two sides to match, and decided to review the tape while the shooter is still shooting.

Well, my question really is if all six numbers were hit... except the 5 wasn't really hit, it was marked in error? Since it happnened "early" would it have been caught? Normally the eye isn't notified until four numbers have been hit.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Question: if I had "let it go" and didn't bring attention to the error, and the shooter went on to get the "fire bet" with the bogus "5" would the eye have caught it?

Yes. Big Fire bet payouts are reviewed by surveillance, and it would have been caught, with a dealer getting a lot of trouble, or even fired.

Players who play with integrity should be saluted.

Well, there's your answer.

Sooner or later, and before people are paid anything, they review the tape.

That being the case, it's a good thing you spoke up. Fix the error while everyone still remembers. Imagine the ruckus that would ensue if payment was denied or reduced as a result of the review...

Yes, my feeling was to have it fixed quick and early because problems can compound. I recognized it was an error and there was no sense letting it go on.

I know that surveillance is notified when four numbers were hit (the floorman always makes a call) but I didn't know if they would review the entire session. That really is my question.

The first time I was at a table and the fire bet hit (Rio) there was a dispute about one bet missing from the layout. The player said he made it, the dealer confirmed, but the bet was not there. All six numbers were hit and after the shooter 7d out, they actually stopped the action at the table for close to an hour to determine not only if the bet was made (that was easy, they went to the start of the hand and looked) but WHEN and HOW the bet was removed. it turned out another chip hit it out of position and it was put into the bank in error.

At the time the max bet at the Rio was $5 and it amazed all of us that the table was shut down for close to an hour just to review for one $5,000 payoff. The staff at the table estimated that the casino lost much more than that while all of us were standing around with our hands in our pockets.

I think the worst part would be that after the delay the shooter would have to go back to work until he either established a point and sevened-out or established/made the Five, so you would have that long delay over a bet that has not yet even been resolved.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Imagine the ruckus that would ensue if ...

Precisely, that is why a good crew appreciates an alert player who speaks up and avoids any later delay in the game or later ill-will or major dispute.

Mission -

I'm pretty sure casinos don't pay the Fire Bet, even a 6 hit, until after the 7 out.

Oh, sure, they'll start to review the tape before then, but I wonder if they'd report the incorrect results while the hand is still in progress. Talk about a reason for a shooter to get distracted!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Mission -

I'm pretty sure casinos don't pay the Fire Bet, even a 6 hit, until after the 7 out.

Oh, sure, they'll start to review the tape before then, but I wonder if they'd report the incorrect results while the hand is still in progress. Talk about a reason for a shooter to get distracted!

Really? I've never experienced a six-hit, but I'm not sure why you wouldn't review/pay, the bet has been resolved.

Quote: Mission146

Really? I've never experienced a six-hit, but I'm not sure why you wouldn't review/pay, the bet has been resolved.

Agreed. I'd want payment in case I had to leave. Why should I have to root for a 7 out to get paid?

I think the delay is to avoid a disruption in the regular flow of the game. And besides, the eye might not be done reviewing the tape.

And, really, are you really in a hurry to leave a table while the hot shooter has the dice?

The Pennsylvania casino rules specifically say that the fire bet is paid after the shooter 7s out:

(5) Fire Bets shall be collected or paid, as applicable, upon a shooter throwing a loser 7.

You'll find that here: http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter623a/s623a.11.html

I don't know of any similar rule in writing in Nevada. But when I have been at a table and one shooter threw all six numbers -- and still held the dice -- I asked if the first fire bets could be paid so that we could bet the fire again on the same shooter. And the answer was "no" because there is only one fire bet per shooter. I think that is in the original published rules from the original designer of the fire bet. I don't know if this is also how Shufflemaster markets it now??

Quote: AlanMendelson

I don't know of any similar rule in writing in Nevada. But when I have been at a table and one shooter threw all six numbers -- and still held the dice -- I asked if the first fire bets could be paid so that we could bet the fire again on the same shooter. And the answer was "no" because there is only one fire bet per shooter. I think that is in the original published rules from the original designer of the fire bet. I don't know if this is also how Shufflemaster markets it now??

Washington State Rules

Quote:

*The procedure for making the 6th “Individual Point” Payoff will be as follows:
After the 6th “Individual Point” has been “successfully” made, the Floor Supervisor will instruct
the Box Person to “cut out” the appropriate payoff behind the coordinating Fire Bet wager (using
the highest denominational chips available.)
Note: The Fire Bet payoffs should be “splash” or “fanned” in order to confirm its accuracy for Surveillance.
• Bets will be paid in numerical order in conjunction with a player’s betting position after all usual “take and pay procedures”, AFTER THE SHOOTER HAS “Sevened-Out” and no new Fire Bet wagers will be accepted until after the shooter has “Sevened-Out”.

Interesting. It appears that Washington wants the dealers to stack the payment immediately, but wait until the 7out before pushing the chips to the players.

I'd be shocked if they actually do that, rather than waiting and then cutting the chips...

Many dealers cut out chips for a large prop bet hit and then await proper payment time but mandating that a set of stacks be cut out and remain on the layout for payment upon a seven-out is strange.

I dont think the Washington state rules are any different from the others, unless there is a typo.

The sentence reads (without the caps, which I think were added):

"Bets will be paid in numerical order in conjunction with a player's betting position after all usual "take and pay procedures", after the shooter has "Sevened-Out" and no new Fire Bet wagers will be accepted until after shooter has "Sevened Out".

Note the comma and not a period after "take and pay procedures" and I doubt this is an error otherwise "after the shooter..." would be a run-on sentence.

I don't want to make a federal case out of this, but I have never seen any fire bets paid off until the shooter sevens out. Has anyone? Could you ask for your payoff because you are leaving the table? I guess you could but I have also never seen that happen.

And having the fire bet payoff chips on the layout while the roll continues would be... well, it would be ridiculous.

Quote: FleaStiff

Many dealers cut out chips for a large prop bet hit and then await proper payment time...

You're talking about dealers who have paid other bets putting the prop bet payouts in the come box, while the stickman is working the other side. So they are just waiting for the stickman to get to it. No biggie, because all this happens before the next roll.

Quote: FleaStiff

...but mandating that a set of stacks be cut out and remain on the layout for payment upon a seven-out is strange.

Yeah, that's how I read it. I guess I read it wrong.

Excellent


Well for my part i go with what is right. If they over pay me which happens i bring it up
and correct it. Then also if they dont pay me correctly i indicate that. I have seen certain crews
repay a player that tips by leaving a come bet or two up when a seven hits on the come out, you
will have to decide for yourselves about that.

To this issue, i am pretty sure any one that hit the fire bet would know whether they really it
or not, but if not it would disappointing to not get paid if a mistake had been made.

You did the right thing..

Dicesetter

Sometimes a crew may reward a good tipper but do so for other reasons. A brief comment about a payment error or a gesture about a capped bet or something and the crew will remember the player for more than just his good tipping behavior and patient attitude. Usually some minor hardways bet will magically stay up maybe even twice. Its something the box won't let happen often but he may turn a blind eye to it once or twice.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'm pretty sure casinos don't pay the Fire Bet, even a 6 hit, until after the 7 out.

I know we don't, and we call surveillance right after the 4th point is hit.

Frankly, in a situation like the one described above, we'd probably be calling surveillance worst-case, although given that our grave shift doesn't even have a floor supervisor for the craps pit during the week, that's sketchy.