Quote: BozLooks like the casinos are going to have to remove Craps tables soon if this keeps up.
the casinos love people like this...LOL
If that's so, WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WHY ,OH WHY SHOUT IT OUT HERE? Why expose this to casino management who scour this message board? Why give out the information for free to every Advantage Player so they can bet 1000's a roll and RAPE casinos effortlessly? If your rich and don't need the money certainly you have friends or family that need money keep it between you and them. Please enlighten me.
Quote:
Alan M
I used a stack shot once and had very good success with it, but never used it again. Technically it is not a legal throw. A legal throw calls for both dice to hit the table first and then the back wall. But the stacked shot I used has the shot hitting the table at the back wall so that the bottom die hits the table while the top die hits the back wall first, and the table second.
Alan sometimes I don't know where you come up with some of this stuff, like its not a legal throw, that both dice have to hit the table first then the back wall!
A stack shot is legal to use in any casino I've ever played in. Hell most Hawaiians wouldn't be able to play if that was true, they love to use a stack shot!
You need to get out from behind your computer and spend some more time in the casinos!
Quote: superrickQuote:
Alan M
I used a stack shot once and had very good success with it, but never used it again. Technically it is not a legal throw. A legal throw calls for both dice to hit the table first and then the back wall. But the stacked shot I used has the shot hitting the table at the back wall so that the bottom die hits the table while the top die hits the back wall first, and the table second.
Alan sometimes I don't know where you come up with some of this stuff, like its not a legal throw, that both dice have to hit the table first then the back wall!
A stack shot is legal to use in any casino I've ever played in.
It's not legal... and you didn't get called on it just as I didn't get called on it when I won about four thousand on my hand at the Rio and hit five numbers on the fire bet. (Fire was only $5 back then.)
It's not a legal throw and I confirmed it with the Enforcement Division of the NGC. Why don't you call them the way I called them?
The same way some casinos will let a roll pass when both dice dont hit the back wall, some casinos will not "no roll" a stacked shot where a die hits the wall before the table surface. But that doesn't mean it's a legal throw. It only means somebody didn't know better. I always try to do legal throws, because I've already been thrown out of three casinos and I don't want to risk being thrown out of any others.
By the way, I interviewed the head ofthe Enforcement Division for my news reports when I was on KCAL. It was all on the record. And it was about the rules about dice influencing and dice control and the story was on TV and I wrote a long article about it on my website too.
The legal throw: dice must fly in the air, dice must bounce on the table, dice must hit the back wall. And that is different from: dice must fly in the air, dice must hit the back wall, dice must bounce on the table.
If you can get away with hitting the back wall first, good for you. Most crews probably don't know the difference anyway.
Quote: JoeyCrapsI'm not doing anything illegal. Believe me, thats the last thing i want to do. I'm hitting the back wall and throwing them. It's just a style/technique of throwing that's all.
Joey- how good do you think you are? As you know, or should know, a random thrower will hit a 7 once out of every 6 throws. Most people who claim to be able to throw fewer 7's will tell us how good they are. For example, you may say "I can decrease my 7's from 1 out of 6 to 1 out of 7". I am one of the residents skeptics here who does not believe that it can be done using generally accepted casino rules. Your throw description to me sounds to be in keeping with generally accepted casino rules. Tell me how good you say you are, and I'll offer you a bet to try and prove it! A previous challenge did occur, with Nickolay making the attempt. I won that bet. Are you up for the challenge?
Quote: AlanMendelsonIt's not legal... It's not a legal throw and I confirmed it with the Enforcement Division of the NGC.
So, if it is not legal, it must therefore be ... illegal.
As in "against the law."
As in: "If we catch you doing it, you are going to prison."
Right?
Isn't "cheating" at craps frowned on and, when detected, usually vigorously prosecuted?
As in "no mulligans?"
So, why then don't they arrest stackers?
The obvious answer: it isn't "cheating," per se; rather, dice stacking AS YOU DEFINE IT is not a crime, but it is against house rules, akin to card counting or a kindred form of AP.
BTW, the OP describes his shot as hitting the table first: basically he describes tossing a dead cat bounce, or close to it.
I could see that Ace (the dealers on first base) noticed that one die came up short and he looked at me. I had $5 on the pass line and I was done with my game. Everyone else was still betting an expecting me to go on a real heater roll, but I made enough money and took my wins except my pass line was still there.
The box man couldn't have cared less that only one die hit the back wall, OR how I threw the dice. That's just how it is sometimes is all.
But it was only one roll.
My interpretation of a SUCCESSFUL stacked throw is against the house rules because both dice have to hit the back wall (not just one). Even though my one die didn't bounce, it still made a quarter turn before it laid to rest on the felt. I cannot and have not ever done a single stacked die throw where the die on bottom both failed to rotate during the throw and landed 100% dead with no rotation on the felt. That is the goal with a stacked die throw, and that throw, if it can be accomplished, is easily verified as not being a random throw when it is executed properly.
That's why both dice need to go all the way down, and there is NO WAY that ANY CASINO would allow you to get big wins with one die that doesn't bounce or rotate at all before resolving. It's clear influence that is against the house rules, and that's the end of the stacked die story.
IE: If you could pull it off, once per session would be it, and you might not be allowed to play after hitting them with ONE of those shots successfully. And if you have one or more unsuccessful attempts, you are going to be warned if you have money on the felt and they can tell what you're doing.
It's very very frowned upon.
As far as both dice hitting the back wall BEFORE the felt, I am not familiar with that being ILLEGAL OR against house policy. My initial thought, though, is that if both dice hit the back wall, you WILL BE FINE no matter how much you are winning, they should allow you to continue to play. So I'm very interested to know more about any claims to the contrary as I know nothing at all about not being allowed to hit the back wall first.
I have contemplated throws that hit the back wall first, but never tried any of them for long enough to even think about if it could be better for me. But I can imagine someone exploiting that to the extent that they recognize it and forbid it, I have just never seen or heard of such a thing in the real world is all.
Quote:
Alan M
It's not legal... and you didn't get called on it just as I didn't get called on it when I won about four thousand on my hand at the Rio and hit five numbers on the fire bet. (Fire was only $5 back then.)
It's not a legal throw and I confirmed it with the Enforcement Division of the NGC. Why don't you call them the way I called them?
The same way some casinos will let a roll pass when both dice dont hit the back wall, some casinos will not "no roll" a stacked shot where a die hits the wall before the table surface. But that doesn't mean it's a legal throw. It only means somebody didn't know better. I always try to do legal throws, because I've already been thrown out of three casinos and I don't want to risk being thrown out of any others.
By the way, I interviewed the head ofthe Enforcement Division for my news reports when I was on KCAL. It was all on the record. And it was about the rules about dice influencing and dice control and the story was on TV and I wrote a long article about it on my website too.
Alan please show everybody the regulations where this shot would be an illegal shot, because there are none, because of guys like you that think its perfectly okay for casinos to make up rules as they see fit.
There has been an on going debate about our rules in NV about the dice and what rules we have here. Lets see you dig out that regulation that you are writing about, so we don稚 have to read BS or hearsay about something you say is the truth! Sorry to put it to you that way, but there is no reason to handle this any other way!
I was once banned from a casino, because the suit said I had to hit the back wall halfway up the diamonds without hitting the table first, their way of getting me out of their casino at the time. That banned lasted until they fired the suit that banned me, and it covered two casinos that they owned.
I use many different types of shots when I知 shooting and there are times that a suit will say that he or her do not like the shot that I知 using, if I知 on a roll. I just laugh and change my shot, telling them I知 just getting lucky like everybody else that picks up the dice.
Everybody just gets lucky when they are on a big roll, but the suits freak out if you are setting the dice, because of all the fiction that is written about the DI痴 and your post just adds to the confusion about hitting the back wall here in NV!
....
Even dealers who've been dealing a few years are often not knowledgeable on many aspects. There are just so many facets.
It's not surprising a reporter gets a story wrong about craps, but I wish that someone who spends as much time on forums like this one had a better and more concrete mental model for what's what.
Quote: AhighIt's not surprising a reporter gets a story wrong about craps
I won't concede that Alan is completely "wrong" on the issue; rather it may be a matter of defining terms.
Quote:
MrV
I won't concede that Alan is completely "wrong" on the issue; rather it may be a matter of defining terms. .
"WRONG"
While other states have rules in place on the game of craps and the dice that can be used NV has none! Is there anybody on this site that can produce any rules that gaming has written about the game of craps?
Let痴 not go by hearsay, like Alan M what痴 everybody to go by, give us the facts if you think you can!
Otherwise it痴 just BS!
...
The first two the dice were not spinning and were visually stuck together like glue in the air.
The last one the dice separated a bit.
None of them were perfect stack shots, but the dealers noticed the two with the dice stuck together. It's visually very unusual to see two dice flying as if they are glued together through the air.
The dealer dealing to me on second base was named, "Thomas." Upon seeing my first throw, he commented, "it looked like you watched some you tube videos to learn how to throw the dice that way."
I said, "what do you know about those you tube videos?"
Then Thomas says, "we can spot guys a mile away who have seen these videos and think they can get better results by the way they throw the dice."
I then said nothing, and kept shooting. I lost a couple hundred bucks as Thomas was talking about the futility of throwing the way that I did.
I rolled a few winners and left with $60 profit. After I got to a profitable point, I said, "if you did look at some of those you tube videos, you might even recognize me in a couple of them."
They weren't really rude about it or anything, but Mandalay Bay dealers aren't exactly working for tips when they make comments like this. My first bet was a $30 eight working the comeout and a $10 pass line and a $5 hard eight. I rolled a seven on my first roll and put it back up at which point he made the comment.
This was one of the rare times that I made zero tips. I did thank them when I left though.
But as far as I'm concerned, and why I am bringing up the story, is that good ol' Thomas sounded like he was the expert about what does and doesn't work from those you tube videos. My point to him was if he was really the expert, he would have done more than to simply mock the fact that I was attempting a controlled throw, and he might have even known who I was.
Profit for me, no tip for you. Ba-bye!
Of course Thomas played the role of the reporter in this case. Same song (from self-purported export on controlled shooting) different verse.
Quote: MrVSo, if it is not legal, it must therefore be ... illegal.
As in "against the law."
As in: "If we catch you doing it, you are going to prison."
Right?
I think we went through this before. When the NGC and the casinos and others (like me) refer to "legal throws" we are saying throws that are acceptable for the game. So it's semantics, definition, use of a word that is the stumbling block.
Dice sliding is not acceptable, but it's also not illegal. There is no "law" against it.
Dice that do not bounce off the back wall is not illegal -- there is no law against it -- but it's not acceptable.
So you are correct, and Superrick is correct -- there is no "law" and you won't go to jail. But the casino might not pay your bets.
So, perhaps I should start saying "acceptable throw" as opposed to "illegal throw" or "not a legal throw"?
Keith Copher was head of the Enforcement Division and was the official I interviewed and it was he who gave me the definition of an acceptable throw: dice must fly in the air, hit the table surface, hit the back wall.
Will you find it written as "law"? No.
Is it the accepted way of throwing dice in Nevada? Yes.
Do the casinos always abide by those definitions of an acceptable throw? No.
Do you want to make a federal case out of it?
Perhaps you do.
For the record if you throw a stacked shot and both dice hit the table surface first and then hit the wall, it is as acceptable as a conventional throw with both dice side by side.
But the goal of a stacked shot is to trap the dice in the curve of the table (not the flat wall) so the top die confines the bottom die to freeze its position and to do this you want both dice to simultaneously hit the back wall together while only the bottom die hits the table surface first. This causes the top die to hit the back wall first, then roll (bounce) off the bottom die onto the table.
Think "surface friction."
Also, think "felony."
Or is it?
Quote: MrVMight the dice stick together if immediately before you pick them up you daub a bit of water on your fingers, then daub the dice on the face where they will be siamesed one to the other?
Think "surface friction."
Also, think "felony."
Or is it?
I asked Copher about it and while you might not be prosecuted (probably wouldn't be if it were just water from a drink glass) it could disallow the throw of the dice if the staff were able to identify what had happened. Now, being practical, how many times do you think you could get the dice to stick together using just the condensation from a drink glass?
If they found glue or some foreign, sticky substance on the dice, you might have some explaining to do. But really have you ever seen dice stay locked together after hitting the table?
Quote: AhighI said, "if you did look at some of those you tube videos, you might even recognize me in a couple of them."
[snip]
My point to him was if he was really the expert...he might have even known who I was.
Quote: MrVMight the dice stick together if immediately before you pick them up you daub a bit of water on your fingers, then daub the dice on the face where they will be siamesed one to the other?
Think "surface friction."
Also, think "felony."
Or is it?
If it can be proven that you intentionally introduced a foreign substance (water) I think you may end up with free accommodations for quite some time. You will most likely have to share your room with a guy named bubba though. Your meals will also be comped.
Basically it falls under modification of an element of the game to achieve an advantage.
Everyone does it because there is oil on your fingers.
But intentionally doing it (EG: using Vaseline or something where intent can be proven) is very clearly punishable by the law.
There are gray areas here and intent may be hard to prove, but with intent, you're guilty here in Nevada!
Quote: Beethoven9thNo offense (and I swear I'm not trying to pick on you, Ahigh), but do you even care about craps?? Sounds like you just want to be some sort of Vegas celebrity...LOL
No offense taken. And of course I care about the game of craps. Do I want to be a celebrity? I can't say that it's a goal of mine to be a celebrity. I do like meeting people, and I do like it when people know who I am an enjoy socializing with me. But I don't want to be a celebrity in the capacity that it becomes a problem being recognized.
I would much rather the crew at the Mandalay say something like "welcome back Aaron, and good luck today." And if they want to talk about my shooting technique, they could say, "we see a lot of people try to do a controlled shot, but generally nobody ever wins any more money that way than just getting lucky."
The way it was presented was a demeaning way. Something along the lines of "anybody that believes that stuff is stupid."
So I'm not trying to be a celebrity, just saying to the guy that maybe he doesn't know as much about those you tube videos and what the chances of those techniques working or not as he would like to think. That's all.
If Thomas recognizes me the next time I go in there, and he has more positive things to say, I will probably tip like I normally do.
Either way, if I'm making money I don't really care if they go out of their way to greet me and remember my name.
Right now they don't know me at Mandalay Bay. This was the first time I even gave them a tip who I was. They have been pegging me for a dealer every time I went in there during the last couple of months. So today was different than those times.
But they haven't seen me lose yet over there. The comment about the you tube video could just be a progressive digging towards figuring out who I am, or it could just be a passing comment as it was intended to be presented. I've taken them for four figures in the last three trips with no losses.
Shows you how times have changed.
"People search high and low for the secret to success... And it points them right into The secret to failure... You think you know it all"
-TheWolf713
Quote: AlanMendelsonI think it's interesting that the dealer referenced YouTube and didn't say something about a dice controlling school.
Shows you how times have changed.
Quote: AhighThe same crew asked me if I went to a school the first time, recently. I told them, "nope I have taken no classes and I have not read any of those books."
Thank you for the information, Ahigh, but I really wasn't asking to know that. I am sure you do enjoy your celebrity. Do you think you are becoming known for your videos and your Ahigh show?
Quote: AlanMendelsonThank you for the information, Ahigh, but I really wasn't asking to know that. I am sure you do enjoy your celebrity. Do you think you are becoming known for your videos and your Ahigh show?
No. 90% of the people who have seen those videos are members of this forum. I have yet to bump into a random person who has recognized me from you tube anywhere at any time. I met with Axel Wolf last night, and he saw one of my videos and didn't even know, when he was describing the video, that it was my video.
Quote: Alan M
I think we went through this before. When the NGC and the casinos and others (like me) refer to "legal throws" we are saying throws that are acceptable for the game. So it's semantics, definition, use of a word that is the stumbling block.
Dice sliding is not acceptable, but it's also not illegal. There is no "law" against it.
Dice that do not bounce off the back wall is not illegal -- there is no law against it -- but it's not acceptable.
So you are correct, and Superrick is correct -- there is no "law" and you won't go to jail. But the casino might not pay your bets.
So Alan when you wrote this misleading quote below you didn稚 know what you were writing about and there are no regulations on how you can make a shot, is that what you are now telling everybody?
Quote: Alan M
It's not legal... and you didn't get called on it just as I didn't get called on it when I won about four thousand on my hand at the Rio and hit five numbers on the fire bet. (Fire was only $5 back then.)
It's not a legal throw and I confirmed it with the Enforcement Division of the NGC. Why don't you call them the way I called them?
The same way some casinos will let a roll pass when both dice dont hit the back wall, some casinos will not "no roll" a stacked shot where a die hits the wall before the table surface. But that doesn't mean it's a legal throw. It only means somebody didn't know better. I always try to do legal throws, because I've already been thrown out of three casinos and I don't want to risk being thrown out of any others.
By the way, I interviewed the head ofthe Enforcement Division for my news reports when I was on KCAL. It was all on the record. And it was about the rules about dice influencing and dice control and the story was on TV and I wrote a long article about it on my website too.
Let痴 look at the next part of your post in the quote below:
Quote: Alan M
Is it the accepted way of throwing dice in Nevada? Yes.
Do the casinos always abide by those definitions of an acceptable throw? No.
Do you want to make a federal case out of it?
Perhaps you do.
Alan if you池e going to post something about regulations, I don稚 think anybody needs your opinion on something that doesn稚 exsist and what you perceive is a legal shot.
Quote: Alan M
But the goal of a stacked shot is to trap the dice in the curve of the table (not the flat wall) so the top die confines the bottom die to freeze its position and to do this you want both dice to simultaneously hit the back wall together while only the bottom die hits the table surface first. This causes the top die to hit the back wall first, then roll (bounce) off the bottom die onto the table.
If you spend some more time in the casinos instead of writing about them you would see that players that use a stacked shot are not trying to trap the dice, sometimes they land them way back from the back wall and they bounce into the back wall.
The next time your in town you should spend time at the California Casino, I知 sure you will see some good examples of this type of shot being used by the Hawaiians that love to use it!
Now for federal case that I知 making out of it. Other players always ask me why I知 always calling out the great fiction writers we have on the game of craps, my answer is always the same, and I知 tired of getting hassled every time I get on a roll, because of all the great fiction they write about the game of craps. There is to much bad information out there and your adding to it, by posting something that in your opinion is not a legal shot, when in fact it is legal to use!
In your first post you didn稚 write that it was in your opinion, you wrote it like it was the law!
Okay Superrick. You're right, I'm wrong. I used the wrong words. Sorry. I'm sure this makes your day.
*and now, for something silly for Friday evening*
Quote: AhighNo. 90% of the people who have seen those videos are members of this forum. I have yet to bump into a random person who has recognized me from you tube anywhere at any time. I met with Axel Wolf last night, and he saw one of my videos and didn't even know, when he was describing the video, that it was my video.
Those are your videos that have a small following. How about these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MrqyVrQWck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Ni8ywlZ2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm_CVZ8MDgk
Some day you might also have thousands of views and you too will be a YouTube STAR !!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote: AhighNo. 90% of the people who have seen those videos are members of this forum. I have yet to bump into a random person who has recognized me from you tube anywhere at any time. I met with Axel Wolf last night, and he saw one of my videos and didn't even know, when he was describing the video, that it was my video.
Quote: AlanMendelsonIf I recall, Ahigh called the Wynn in advance to announce that he was coming. What exactly did you tell them Ahigh? Did you mention that you have a TV show, YouTube videos, and you were going to show them how you can hit various hardways... ya know... the stuff you talk about here?? If so, that certainly put you on the radar.
Apparently you do not recall, Alan. I've not once made a phone call to the Wynn. The Wynn gives a hard time to everyone about the back wall, not just me. The last time I was there I was telling them that they hassle people about their shots more than any other casino. They started to argue with me about it, and I said, "it's not a question, I'm telling you that of all the casinos that I visit you guys hassle people about hitting the back wall more than any other casino."
And no I don't think it's me or anything I did. I think they have more whales than any other casino. If they get hit ONCE by someone with a shot that looks suspicious, everybody is going to get hassled for a while whether it's random or not.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/12830-di-skills-are-needed-to-win-at-craps-over-time/2/
Quote: Ahigh
I gave the Wynn a heads up that I planned to come and shoot the bones on a high limit table and that I ran a website and everything else, and there were plenty of suits watching as I rolled. I basically wanted to see if they would be afraid of my shot. I got a whole lot of looks from a whole lot of suits, but nobody took the dice away from me (I have only had the dice taken from me when I felt it was because of fear of losses once, and the boxman claimed it was for another reason, so I can't be 100% sure what the truth is).
I guess the reason it stuck in my mind was MrV quote below, now I could get away with forgetting that I wrote something, but come on Ahigh your not my age yet!!!!
Quote: MrV
Wow, you told them to fear you as you "ran a website and everything."
"Everything?"
Does "everything" include your unending clamor for attention ("LOOK AT ME, EVERYBODY, LOOK AT ME!") and validation?
You got lucky.
You ain't the Golden Child.
Get over yourself: in fact, you might benefit from a consultation with a psychiatrist.
Quote: AhighAnd no I don't think it's me or anything I did. I think they have more whales than any other casino. If they get hit ONCE by someone with a shot that looks suspicious, everybody is going to get hassled for a while whether it's random or not.
Quote: superrickAlan I知 going to throw you a bonus on this one, only because when Ahigh wrote the below quote I did a double take as to why anybody would do something like that!!!!!!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/12830-di-skills-are-needed-to-win-at-craps-over-time/2/
I guess the reason it stuck in my mind was MrV quote below, now I could get away with forgetting that I wrote something, but come on Ahigh your not my age yet!!!!
You know SuperRick, I'm glad you confirmed what I said.
I dropped arguing with Ahigh about the guy who stood at my table at Caesars who was recording my rolls. He said it was Harley. I thought the resemblance was very close to the guy I see on Ahigh's videos and photos. But Ahigh wouldnt forget that he was there at my table, would he?
Harley, by the way, has my email, and we have emailed each other. Funny... Harley never said a thing to me about watching me at Caesars.
Quote: Beethoven9thDon't sell yourself short, Ahigh. I'm beginning to think you're a little more famous than I had previously thought.
For example, YouTube muted the audio track on one of your videos. Something like this just doesn't happen by itself. Perhaps a Vegas bigwig like Sheldon Adelson or Steve Wynn was browsing through your channel and wanted to sabotage your video, so they alerted the copyright holder? That particular vid has over 8,000 views, so you never know who is watching.
I bet someone is ultimately trying to keep tabs on you and your shot.
Ahigh would you please comment on this? Did you have an audio track added? I know that usually when video is slowed that natural audio is usually removed because the audio would also be slowed. Usually, slow motion video has an audio track that is added later, such as a narration. Did you have an added audio track that was removed?
Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: Beethoven9thFor example, YouTube muted the audio track on one of your videos. Something like this just doesn't happen by itself. [snip]
Ahigh would you please comment on this? Did you have an audio track added? [snip] Did you have an added audio track that was removed?
Obviously, YouTube muted/removed the audio track, as Beethoven9th mentioned and as is explained on the YouTube page.
Usually, it's copyrighted music that gets removed/muted (i.e. popular song recordings).
Of course, none of this has anything to do with the topic of this thread.
Quote: AhighI played at Wynn today and I threw like a total loser. The Wynn definitely couldn't care less about me, and I'm nearly 100% sure that I'm not even close to being on their radar.
I wouldn't be too sure about that ...
*sounds of Ming vases falling and shattering, Picasso paintings being cut*
"Where is he? Security, zoom camera 6 on his face, tell me what you see. I want you to look this guy in the eyes. This S.O.B. is the first craps player to instill fear in me in my own damned casino ..."
Quote: AhighThat muted track is just some Pink Floyd music. It used to be alright, but they apparently changed the policy. It has nothing to do the Wynn and everything to do with whoever owns the copyright for Pink Floyd's music tracks.
That's right. You can't use copyrighted music. No big deal. they deleted the music. case closed. back to regular business.
Quote: AhighI played at Wynn today and I threw like a total loser. The Wynn definitely couldn't care less about me, and I'm nearly 100% sure that I'm not even close to being on their radar.
Did you call them in advance to let them know you were coming? Maybe they weren't prepared for you?