Odds On for Come-out

I have a noobie question. Scanning rules for Craps online, it is usually stated that "an odds bet is made after a point is established" or words to that effect. It is also often stated on various strategy sites that having yours odds working on the come out roll is better for the player.

So my question is this: If you have a come bet when the shooter rolls the point, can you take odds on that immediately, or do you have to wait until after the next point is established?

OK, I have two questions...

Can you tell the crew your odds "are always on" for the come out for the duration of your play, or do you have to do so every time?

...maybe a third question...

Do you have to state odds are working for come bets separately from place bets?

TIA.

Quote: cowboy

If you have a come bet when the shooter rolls the point, can you take odds on that immediately, or do you have to wait until after the next point is established?

You should be able to take odds immediately.

Quote: cowboy

Can you tell the crew your odds "are always on" for the come out for the duration of your play, or do you have to do so every time?

It'll vary from place to place, but it's probably best to tell them every time - if they forget, you probably won't have much recourse.

Quote: cowboy

Do you have to state odds are working for come bets separately from place bets?

Probably should make it clear.

Quote: 24Bingo

You should be able to take odds immediately...It'll vary from place to place, but it's probably best to tell them every time - if they forget, you probably won't have much recourse...Probably should make it clear.

Concur in all.

IMO at a loud, busy table with constantly changing crew, fuggitaboutit, it's just too big of a pain in the a** to keep the odds on. That *does* mean the HE is not as good as it could be. I also do not discount the discouragement that can come with a "7-winner" that wins your little line bet and clobbers your big odds bets all at once. It's grin-and-bear-it time and be sure you can take it.

PS: another plus for the darkside, odds are always 'on'

They are off because the shooter is trying to shoot a 7 now, when it's safe, to get it out of his system.

You CAN simply state "everything is working." After doing it twice, a good dealer will ask but it's a good idea to keep saying it.

When I am shooting I usually place the 6 and 8 and have them working on the comeout. No particular reason but I seem to make more money on my own rolls on average than someone else's. Probably is not actually true since I don't claim to be a dice influencer. Just adds a little more excitement. I very seldom leave the odds working on any come bets I have which can sometimes be all the numbers. I will leave the numbers and odds up though if there is a seven on the comeout.

I use this "everything works every roll unless otherwise stated."

Sometimes I have to say this three times, and it must be re-stated when a new stick arrives.

An easier way to get a better edge is just to play the don'ts. The lay odds always work by default and you don't have to say jack crap.

Working the comeout, agreed, is better on an empty table.

But if you are alone at the table and in full control of the dice, rolling the exact same way every roll is much easier to play and there is less to keep track of.

Many people who talk about math all day long still don't walk the walk and are too lazy to keep reminding the dealers to work the odds.

As a matter of fact, I'm curious if the Wizard works the comeout on his bets.

I have been working the comeout more frequently recently. Especially on crapless craps. If you don't work the comeout, your average edge per roll sucks big time at 1.2%, and you can have a lot more in line/come bets at that 1.2% on a crapless table with 10 box numbers instead of 6.

Quote: Ahigh

As a matter of fact, I'm curious if the Wizard works the comeout on his bets.

He certainly advises everyone to do so, but also has been heard to say [such as on his video] that he is strictly darkside, which makes it a mute point.

Quote: odiousgambit

He certainly advises everyone to do so, but also has been heard to say [such as on his video] that he is strictly darkside, which makes it a mute point.

If this were the case, it would explain a lot. But I have to admit that I would find it hard to believe that the Wizard is so staunch in his practice about the best edge and so on to be a strict dark side player. There is a culture to playing the game too, and the difference in cost between working the comeout on the light side and playing the dark side is immense in terms of your experience playing the game in a group.

On an empty table, fine. But really, Wizard? Darkside only? "Strictly?"

Can you confirm or deny this?

I never worry about having my odds working on come out rolls. We are talking about very small changes in eV, and as another poster stated, it is a pain in the ***.

Quote: DrEntropy

I never worry about having my odds working on come out rolls. We are talking about very small changes in eV, and as another poster stated, it is a pain in the ***.

29% of all rolls are comeout rolls, though. Driving to the casino or flying to Vegas is a pain in the ass. Saying "odds work unless otherwise stated" a few times isn't that hard.

The same people who allow their odds to go off on the comeout harass someone else for blaming the stickman.

If you're not superstitious, and you truly believe the math work the comeout to prove it!

You're passing up a chance to win money because your scared to have exposure during the comeout rolls when everybody is saying "seven" is a more likely explanation to me than "it's a pain in the ***."

Quote: DrEntropy

I never worry about having my odds working on come out rolls. We are talking about very small changes in eV, and as another poster stated, it is a pain in the ***.

To be exact, it's no change at all in EV, zero, zilch, nada.

Cue 7craps to come talk about the change in variance :)

Quote: Ahigh

Quote: odiousgambit

He certainly advises everyone to do so, but also has been heard to say [such as on his video] that he is strictly darkside, which makes it a mute point.

If this were the case, it would explain a lot. But I have to admit that I would find it hard to believe that the Wizard is so staunch in his practice about the best edge and so on to be a strict dark side player. There is a culture to playing the game too, and the difference in cost between working the comeout on the light side and playing the dark side is immense in terms of your experience playing the game in a group.

On an empty table, fine. But really, Wizard? Darkside only? "Strictly?"

Can you confirm or deny this?

I had to find where he says this in one of his videos. To be precise, he says "most of the time". So strike that "strictly" out, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUDNcvuGE_8&feature=youtu.be ... tune it at 2:45

PS: I have to assume that the best HE is only attained if the odds are kept on. Has anyone tried to show how the HE is affected by typical come-betting play where the odds are off on the come-out?

Quote: Ahigh

On an empty table, fine. But really, Wizard? Darkside only? "Strictly?"
Can you confirm or deny this?

I think Shack plays craps so infrequently, it is more a moot point...

Quote: TIMSPEED

I think Shack plays craps so infrequently, it is more a moot point...

During last year's G2E, he played pass/come with max odds.

Quote: odiousgambit

PS: I have to assume that the best HE is only attained if the odds are kept on. Has anyone tried to show how the HE is affected by typical come-betting play where the odds are off on the come-out?

It's a tough question to answer because you're not looking at it correctly.

Odds are a 0% house edge bet, whether you're working them during the come-out or not. The line bet (come) is a contract bet and cannot be turned off, and is subject to a 1.41% house edge.

So if you leave your odds turned on all the time, the totality of your action (come+odds) is subject to a combined house edge of 0.37% assuming 3-4-5 odds.

If you follow tradition and leave them off during the come-out roll, your odds are no longer "in action" and your smaller line bet is still subject to the 1.41% house edge. Your EV on the bets is always the same.

You can take down your odds at any time; that's essentially what you're doing when you turn them off during a come out. Imagine asking the dealer to take down all of your odds bets, you put them in your rack, and then after the new point is established, you put the chips back down and say "all my odds back up please!" That's essentially what you're doing, just with less of a headache for the dealer.

So the HE is never really affected regardless of whether you leave them on or not. Your "combined, weighted house edge" shoots up during the come-out rolls, but it's over a smaller amount of action, or money.

I hope that all made sense. All house edges on a "per bet resolved" basis.

Leaving odds turned on is really a personal decision. In the long long run (infinity), it won't affect your net win or loss. But it will jack up your variance, and give you more action! That is pretty much why the Wizard advises you to do it - you want more variance. It's your only chance to win in a -EV game.

Quote: AcesAndEights

So the HE is never really affected regardless of whether you leave them on or not. Your "combined, weighted house edge" shoots up during the come-out rolls, but it's over a smaller amount of action, or money.

I don't see how you can stay at , say, 0.37% HE if such HE depends on the odds. I agree the EV does not change.

Quote: AcesAndEights

In the long long run (infinity), it won't affect your net win or loss. But it will jack up your variance, and give you more action! That is pretty much why the Wizard advises you to do it - you want more variance. It's your only chance to win in a -EV game.

Not sure about that either. The Wizard is all about HE. Personally, those are largely my own thoughts about variance.

The circumstance where you can undeniably reduce HE is to bet the same amount of money, best example being changing a $30 line bet to a $10 line bet with odds to total of $30 . Best example of foolishness is to be comfortable only with $30 bets but being at a 10x table and increasing your bet beyond comfort [and maybe bankroll capacity] to $110 with odds "to win more" .

To almost ensure the dealers remember to work your odds, then tipping frequently will do it. Just a buck on the pass line should be enough. You also won't have to remember to tell the new stick, as good dealers let the new stick know you're taking care of them and what you like.

Search for "combined" on this link. 29% of all rolls are comeout rolls. So if you don't work the comeout, you come up with the actual average house edge per roll by weighting 1.41% at .29 and the other number from this chart at .71

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

The numbers in the above chart (edge per roll) are only meaningful on 71% of each roll on average if you are not working the comeout roll.

Edge per bet assumes that the odds are working the comeout (which most people don't do).

It sure appears that the note that "working the comeout" as being a necessary step to enjoy these low numbers is missing.

Quote: odiousgambit

which makes it a mute point.

Sorry to correct you, but a little piece of me dies every time I see that, and I seem to be seeing it more of late:

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/mute.html

Quote: AcesAndEights

Quote: DrEntropy

I never worry about having my odds working on come out rolls. We are talking about very small changes in eV, and as another poster stated, it is a pain in the ***.

To be exact, it's no change at all in EV, zero, zilch, nada.

Cue 7craps to come talk about the change in variance :)

Doh! Of course, sorry for that blunder. Now i wonder how much the change in standard deviation is...

Actually, no.

If you leave no odds working on the come out, the EV on that particular roll is:

on the 4/10: 3/36 - 6/36 = -3/36.
on the 5/9: 4/36 - 6/36 = -2/36
on the 6/8: 5/36 - 6/36 = -1/36.

Since you bet is one unit, your HA is the same as EV.

If the odds (o) are working, EV on the come out roll is:

4 and 10: 3(1+2o)/36 - 6(1+o)/36 = (3 + 6o - 6o -6) / 36 = -3/36.
5 and 9: 4(1+3/2o)/36 - 6(1+o)/36 = (4 + 6o - 6o - 6) / 36 = -2/36
6 and 8: 5(1+6/5o)/37 - 6(1+o)/37 = (5 + 6o - 6o - 6) / 36 = -1/36.

Since yout bet is more than one unit the HE= EV / (1+o), where o is the size of the odds.

In otherwords, the EV doesn't change on the come out roll if your odds are working or not. YOUR VARIANCE changes because your bet size changes.

Just like the pass line, changing your odds doesn't change the EV, but it lowers the HA by EV/(1+o)

Quote: cclub79

a little piece of me dies every time I see that

A dim little section of my brain seems to be saying I have seen correct usage somewhere and should have picked it up. However, I can honestly say this is the first time anyone pointed out that "mute" is the wrong word. Sorry.

Quote: Ahigh

image of shut-t-f-u

not sure who that was directed to, but all you have to do is block the thread, ya know

I know we read here about what is best and how the odds are physically left up but normally considered to be "off on the come out roll" for the convenience of the dealers who have to deal to the teeming masses that are ill-informed by sources other than those of the Wizard as to what is proper and correct.

The trouble is: every time I say my odds are always working, someone rolls a seven within but a minute or two and I lose all those chips that would still be there if I just kept my yap shut like everyone else did!

Er, uh.... "as everyone else did!".

Quote: odiousgambit

not sure who that was directed to, but all you have to do is block the thread, ya know

Wasn't directed at anyone. I was just making a joke about questions being "muted."