Would a craps tournament help or hurt the game?
Poll
 | 12 votes (54.54%) | ||
| | 1 vote (4.54%) | ||
| | 9 votes (40.9%) |
22 members have voted
What do you think?
As a quasi-craps instructor I can tell you and all that two things keep newbies away. The first is the intimidation factor. From having to literally push your way to the rail on a busy night to the 95+ bets on the table to the slang of the game, craps scares people away. Of course this is part of what experienced players like about it. It is a secret club of sorts.
The second thing keeping people away is craps bores many people and it really bores women. Guys will take time to learn it so they can hang with the expert players. Women get tired of waiting for resolutions on long rolls. I see it happen anytime I am dealing/teaching.
Most people need a mentor to really learn the game. And half the people who think they know it do not really know it, they know a few bets. This week I had a darkside player who knew enough to know DP but was amazed at some of what I showed him.
Don't get me wrong, the game is great. But tournaments will not make it work. What will make it work? A craps version of "Rounders." A good movie about players and dealers. If we get that, casinos will need far more tables.
Maybe I should get to writing some screenplay..........
Quote: AZDuffman
As a quasi-craps instructor I can tell you and all that two things keep newbies away. The first is the intimidation factor. From having to literally push your way to the rail on a busy night to the 95+ bets on the table to the slang of the game, craps scares people away. Of course this is part of what experienced players like about it. It is a secret club of sorts.
q]
Exactly what I was going to say, it is intimidating and takes time at the table to learn.
There were two younger guys at the table with me, full table, probably four or five times ago when I went and the other players were just giving them flack for asking so many questions and slowing the game down. For example, one guy says, "I've heard people say, 'dollar-Yo,'' and I always thought that sounded funny, what does that mean?" One of the guys at the Table responds, "It's a bet you only make if you're an asshole."
That sort of thing isn't going to help attract people to the game, these kids were just having a good time and the second kid went on an absolute monster roll! He went 20+ without the Seven showing and made three points, he also had placed the Ten and hit three of those in a row, two of them the Hard Way.
Anyway, I grabbed my chips and pushed my way in-between the first of the two kids and this guy who was now to my right making a big fuss about how I was just moving so I could shoot again. God, what a mean table that night! I said, "No, I'll pass them, but I'm moving here because these guys are going to ask me questions about Craps and I am going to give them straight answers."
I think that's what people need, though, Craps is a great game in that...when you hold the dice...you can't help but feel like you have more than a random involvement in the outcome, even if you don't. I think that the same proportion of younger players could hold an interest in Craps now as those that did years ago, but it's all going to start with people being decent to one another at the table and taking time to help others out. I've got my Pass Line Bet, I've got my Odds, I may or may not have a $1.00 Fire Bet, (SSSHHHH....don't tell The Wizard) so I'm just standing there waiting for something to happen...why not take the time to be friendly and helpful?
helping the house or again they wouldn't be doing it?
It seems to me those contestant's are likely to bring a friend whether or not they enter the contest
but would gain interest. The contestants are likely to go home afterwards and talk about what they did, at work or social get together's. Probably take
a while but other's will give it a try. [Build it and they will come, right? f.o.d.] We've all seen a newbie stating a friend told them how much fun it was
so they are there to try it out.
Maybe a small plaque with basic rules or strategy if the casino doesn't give lesson's? Maybe give away free dice control books? The lure of easy money.
It does seem many casino's would just as soon take the table's out and put in "popcorn craps" or 10 slot machine's in that floor space and get rid of the crews.
Maybe it's up to the player's to encourage the casino's? But that doesn't seem right does it? I've been trying for some time to get them to install
web cam's over the table's, so I can check on the game before I head out to win.
What the heck direction would a "Yes" answer, or a "No" answer indicate? Yes, it would help? Yes, it would hurt? ?????
I didn't bother to vote. It might contradict my intent.
I can see a renaissance starting if kids shooting craps are prominently featured in TV shows and movies; it needs to develop a vibe.
Perhaps if kids come up playing "street caps" for nickels and dimes, that will plant the seed that will soon fester into a full blown itch.
Quote: MrVCraps needs more mainstream exposure...
Ahigh needs to add bikini-clad dealers and a stickperson to his show. That will do the trick.
Quote: Mission146the thing that scares off new players the most is people that are familiar with the game but unwilling to help.
I'm guilty. I don't want people coming up to the table who are not players and start asking questions. Inevitably the question comes that leads to the word "devil" being uttered, and I am the most superstitious son-of-a-bitch you ever met at a craps table. No free lessons at my table please. Now if it's someone with money on the table, then ask all the questions you like.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm guilty. I don't want people coming up to the table who are not players and start asking questions. Inevitably the question comes that leads to the word "devil" being uttered, and I am the most superstitious son-of-a-bitch you ever met at a craps table. No free lessons at my table please. Now if it's someone with money on the table, then ask all the questions you like.
Oh, no, they were playing...and mostly making horrible bets!
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm guilty. I don't want people coming up to the table who are not players and start asking questions. Inevitably the question comes that leads to the word "devil" being uttered, and I am the most superstitious son-of-a-bitch you ever met at a craps table. No free lessons at my table please. Now if it's someone with money on the table, then ask all the questions you like.
If saying SEVEN out loud at the dice table causes sevens to show up, why doesn't saying 6 or 8 cause the same thing ? Just asking.
Hell, mention 6 AND 8 and now you have the edge! 10 chances to win and only 6 to lose ! ;-)
Quote: RaleighCrapsIf saying SEVEN out loud at the dice table causes sevens to show up, why doesn't saying 6 or 8 cause the same thing ? Just asking.
Hell, mention 6 AND 8 and now you have the edge! 10 chances to win and only 6 to lose ! ;-)
My buddy orders a 7&7 when he plays craps. The only place he drinks them. He has just a basic knowledge if the game. No idea where he got the idea to do that.
You don't have to believe to participate in the fantasy of the superstitions.
It's fun stuff.
To those who said "Yes", how would you structure the tournament?
'Brian
Quote: gameshowfanNot to be practical here, but how exactly should a craps tournament work? The only way I've ever seen is in the Hoyle Casino series, which runs a 4-shooter tournament. It seems terribly unfulfilling, not to mention overemphasizing the variance of a game that already has a high variance.
To those who said "Yes", how would you structure the tournament?
'Brian
The most simple and straightforward to make the tournament work would be to have everyone shoot against a passline with 3x4x5x odds and a come bet with odds on every roll, working the comeout.
In other words, you shoot to win bets for a fictitious player who is betting on your roll using a maximum action strategy following the lowest possible house edge.
Using a computer, you could maximize the number of rolls per unit time by giving each shooter ten seconds to shoot and use multiple sets of dice, displaying the bets for each shooter in turn as the shooting proceeds around the craps table.
Each shooter shoots a single shot and the following shooter shoot as soon as possible.
I actually have software that I wrote for this already created that display the bets and scores for each shooter as play progresses around the table.
I haven't tested it out yet though. Maybe we could do a trial run for one of the ahigh shows.
Or you might only allow a maximum number of bets per player per round (4), with no hedging allowed (ie, you can't do a put and place, a don't pass/don't come with a pass/come bet.
Quote: boymimboI'd allow any betting for the tournament actually with the exception of center betting. That way, the only way one could really triple up on their money is a very long shot field bet.
Or you might only allow a maximum number of bets per player per round (4), with no hedging allowed (ie, you can't do a put and place, a don't pass/don't come with a pass/come bet.
Disallowing the betting aspect would remove skilled betting from the equation. Although systems are known to fail in the long run, a method of betting is not a demonstration of skill when it comes to long term craps efficacy for wins. Yet in the short term, it's truly another story. Since a tournament is a short term endeavor, eliminating the betting aspect of the game requires the player to focus in on shooting and shooting alone.
The last craps tournament I played in, I was eliminated in a round when I didn't even get to touch the dice!
That's the opposite end of the spectrum to me. The winner of that round, in fact, played hop bets exclusively! Then the final winner was a 70-year-old white haired lady who had never once played the game before the tournament, and she got the wildcard drawing to be on the final table and then she just got lucky.
If the entire tournament is just about getting lucky, why not just play a slot machine? Or bet on someone else's roll on the dark side? You don't _NEED_ a tournament to win that type of thing.
A tournament is where you have a huge group of experts of a particular game, and you want someone to stand head and shoulders above the other experts from something that, even if only in theory, is different about how this person plays the game compared to the others.
All craps tournaments that I know about are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In effect, you are put on rails (arbitrary rails) to enable an elaborate lottery system to take place.
I did make it past the first round, and I had a long roll and had more chips than any other player at the table besides one other player.
I have never heard of a skill-based craps tournament. But one could be made to exist.
To make it even more skill based but enabling skill from betting as well, you could allow odds bets and lay odds with no come bets on any number you like and not be required to make any other bets and pay hardways at 11 for 1 and 9 for 1, and hop bets at 18 for 1 and 36 for 1. It may not seem obvious, but you will still have about the same amount of money among all the players at the end of such a tournament as you have at the beginning if there is no skill. If you played a skill based tournament with actual skilled players, in theory you would have more money in possession of the players at the end of the tournament compared to the beginning. Since it's just funny money anyway, it would be quite entertaining to see a player who starts with 5000 worth of chips and ends with millions.
Passline bets could only lose half on the 12, and don't pass could be awarded half of their bet on a win on the 12 instead of a bar as well.
The purpose of the tournament would be to encourage more gamblers to play craps. To the uneducated player, craps seems like a very difficult game. The hardest part is to walk up to the table and make a bet.
That's how you learn the game.
Learning the game takes time.
You suggest changing the game. No 'come bets', changing the payoffs, etc.
Well guess what..You are not playing craps. You are playing a 'mutant' version of craps.
I have played in a craps tournament and it was very simple. The two players with the most amount of money advanced to the next round.
Quote: FatGeezusAhigh -
The purpose of the tournament would be to encourage more gamblers to play craps. To the uneducated player, craps seems like a very difficult game. The hardest part is to walk up to the table and make a bet.
That's how you learn the game.
Learning the game takes time.
You suggest changing the game. No 'come bets', changing the payoffs, etc.
Well guess what..You are not playing craps. You are playing a 'mutant' version of craps.
I have played in a craps tournament and it was very simple. The two players with the most amount of money advanced to the next round.
A craps tournament SHOULD be different from a craps LESSON. The rules of a craps tournament are NECESSARILY different from the rules of play real craps.
The singular purpose of the money taken out of each pay is simply to allow the house to make money while the player gambles.
There is absolutely no reason to have an edge in a game of craps for the purposes of a tournament. The reason why is because the "money" used in a tournament is not real, and an edge is simply not necessary.
So I disagree with your suggestion. Craps, the game (IE: the game that even pre-dates the name "craps"), predates casino craps. The fact is that casino craps is a mutant version of the craps that predates casino craps.
But you do have some very interesting perspectives, even if a little narrow minded.
I will agree, however, that the existing use of tournaments for craps is for marketing. But that's where I suggest that I think you are wrong. You seem to perceive it as it as something that can never change and something that is already as good as it can get.
I disagree firmly. Craps tournaments currently should not even be called tournaments. They should be called something else.
One definition of tournament is this: a trial of skill in some game, in which competitors play a series of contests.
There is no skill at all in any current craps tournaments.
If you remove the everything from the competition besides the throwing of the dice, or if you remove the house edge and allow players to bet without having any negative expectations from the bet, you can call it whatever you want, but the thing that would determine the winner could possibly be something besides pure luck. Even if it were only a slight improvement whatever the player were doing, if you finish with 1% more chips than the next guy, you win.
Then I would say that you have something that's a real tournament.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm guilty. I don't want people coming up to the table who are not players and start asking questions. Inevitably the question comes that leads to the word "devil" being uttered, and I am the most superstitious son-of-a-bitch you ever met at a craps table. No free lessons at my table please. Now if it's someone with money on the table, then ask all the questions you like.
Quote: ClownkeeperIm also the same way. When Im not playing, I'd be more than happy to explain the game. Hell, I'd love a part time job just teaching the basics of the game in a casino. When Im playing however thats different. I usually have four bets on the table and I dont like the distraction of someone next to me asking alot of questions. It always amazes me that someone would go to Vegas and not learn the games and just make bets they have no clue on. (Unless "that guy" is the casino's "cooler")
Man, you guys sure are uppity*! I'm exactly the opposite, I love teaching craps to new players. Of course, it probably helps that I'm one of the least superstitious gamblers that I know. I don't care about saying "seven" at the table, although I try to respect other people who are superstitious by using "El Diablo" or "big red" or the like.
*said in jest
Quote: AZDuffmanMy buddy orders a 7&7 when he plays craps. The only place he drinks them. He has just a basic knowledge if the game. No idea where he got the idea to do that.
Hehehehehe, I may have to get a 7 & 7 next time I play craps...works even better if you're playing the dark side!
Quote: AcesAndEightsMan, you guys sure are uppity*! I'm exactly the opposite, I love teaching craps to new players. Of course, it probably helps that I'm one of the least superstitious gamblers that I know. I don't care about saying "seven" at the table, although I try to respect other people who are superstitious by using "El Diablo" or "big red" or the like.
*said in jest
I like teaching if but the student must have a desire to learn for it to be fun. As I have stated most new players want a game they can learn in five minutes and takes less than one for a decision.
People like to learn when they are part of a crowd hooping it up at the win. Even then if gets hard. An example from this week:
Dice roll seven
"Yea Seven" (they don't realize puck is on)
"SEVEN OUT" (begin sweeping layout)
"But a minute ago you said seven was good"
"A minute ago it was good"
Then I re-explained it. Knowing players helped me. But they needed a mentor. It is very difficult to deal and teach at the same time.
Quote: AZDuffmanI like teaching if but the student must have a desire to learn for it to be fun. As I have stated most new players want a game they can learn in five minutes and takes less than one for a decision.
People like to learn when they are part of a crowd hooping it up at the win. Even then if gets hard. An example from this week:
Dice roll seven
"Yea Seven" (they don't realize puck is on)
"SEVEN OUT" (begin sweeping layout)
"But a minute ago you said seven was good"
"A minute ago it was good"
Then I re-explained it. Knowing players helped me. But they needed a mentor. It is very difficult to deal and teach at the same time.
Wait, you're not a dealer are you?
