Dice Sliding

It seems to me that one viable, albeit *arguably illegal* method to achieve true AP at craps is via dice sliding.

Sure, casinos are watching for it, but with a couple confederates to momentarily distract the box and the dealers, it should be doable, at least once in a game.

Have some Big Player bet house max on a placed six, and max on hard six, and set for, slide and roll a hard six.

Slide, baby ... slide.

Which reminds me: any update on the Wynn dice sliding lawsuit?

Your proposed scenario of having confederates momentarily distract the box and the dealers will not work and is not viable (in my opinion).

To begin with, as you acknowledge, dice sliding is illegal, and all the craps crew as well as the pit supervisors and the eye in the sky are especially on the look out for illegal activity.

But think through the rest of your plan thoroughly.

To begin with, what you propose is having "some Big Player bet house max" on two different bets. I presume you mean a confederate person other than the shooter.

Do you know many people who are prepared to put up the enough money in order to bet house max (on two different bets) on the chance that the slide of the dice will succeed and not be called a "no roll?"

Even if the intent is to distract the box and the other dealers, you will not distract the stickperson and it is the stickperson who is primarily be responsible for calling the "no roll."

Once the stick pushes the dice to the shooter, that stick will not take his/her eyes off the dice until they come to rest after the roll. It does not matter if a max bet is tossed to the center for the hard six bet. The stick (assuming he is doing his job) will not take is attention away from the dice to deal with the bet. The stick is absolutely responsible for watching the dice and--in particular--ensuring that the roll is in conformity with the rules of the game.

Lastly, as you propose, do you know anyone who has practiced enough to reliably and without fail roll the hard six with a slide in order to--perhaps--do it "at least once in a game?"

Your scenario may work as a scene in a TV show or a movie for the sake of drama. But in real life, it will not work.

But it is fun to dream!

Good points.

It would not be too difficult to enlist a couple of confederates, I should think: others have done so, e.g. dice setting teams.

As for the role of the Big Player, I would think to try to avoid suspicion it could be pre-planned that he'd walk up to the table and bet 1/4 of the house limit on a placed six / hard six, then one half, and finally bet the limit.

When / if the firts bets go down, he'd just double up, as if he's steaming / going on tilt.

Whether someone is actually good enough to slide the dice and most likely hit the number they set for: I don't know.

I accidentally slid the dice on Friday morning at the Silverton while random rolling. I wished it hadn't been called as it was a boxcar and I had a come bet. That was the first time I ever had that happen though, but it was coincidence. The die was initially 3 inches off the felt, but it did not bounce at all, just slid after hitting the felt.

MrV is over thinking a lot of things...
To "slide the dice" all you must do is have ONE die stay "frozen" to the felt with the 6 up, the other, it really doesn't matter as there's only 2 outcomes that are not in the field (1 and 2).
Then you have a "confederate" bet table max in the field and be done.
Reno got hit by people that did it, because ½ of Reno doesn't use a boxman...so it wasn't too terribly hard to distract a half-staffed table...
Plus a lot of the dealers in Reno are too ignorant to realize the difference between a "slide" and a "roll"

I am intrigued because it seems to me that, used sparingly, a dice slider might have "plausible deniability" if accused of dice sliding.

Sure, if you do it over and over you are toast, but if a shooter uses it only once, I would think he could lie his way out of it, e.g. "they slipped," or "WTF you talking about, I just threw the dice."

I believe it is illegal in Nevada to knowingly slide the dice; the tough part (for the casino and for the State) would be proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quote: MrV

I am intrigued because it seems to me that, used sparingly, a dice slider might have "plausible deniability" if accused of dice sliding.

Sure, if you do it over and over you are toast, but if a shooter uses it only once, I would think he could lie his way out of it, e.g. "they slipped," or "WTF you talking about, I just threw the dice."

I believe it is illegal in Nevada to knowingly slide the dice; the tough part (for the casino and for the State) would be proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Key words there are "believe" and "knowingly." I'm not sure if doing it knowingly is even illegal. Isn't it up to the casino to see such short/improper rolls and call them "no roll" immediately? I've seen some pretty nasty short rolls by craps newbies, for example one die barely halfway down the table, NOT called "no roll." Could they prosecute the neophyte shooter for not hitting the back wall? I don't think so, it's just at their discretion to call it "no roll."

I'm sure someone here knows the NGCB laws better than us. Is there actually anything illegal about this? I guess if it's cheating with intent, maybe there is. I dunno.

Quote: MrV

Slide, baby ... slide.

Hey Alan, you ever try this at Caesars?

Alan's dice sliding video

Lol. That's the silliest example of dice sliding I've ever seen if that is supposed to be any proof that it's possible in a casino.

ZCore13

That was on a mini table, but I did do it once at Gold Strike, the little joint along the 15 and I asked the dealers if I could do it once on the come out just to see if I actually could do it. I was the only player. Just used it to set the point. I did it. Two dice frozen to near the back wall. I never tried it any other time -- nor would I want to.

When the LVRJ interviewed me about the Wynn case I told them I saw it happen only once.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/couple-accused-dice-sliding-wynn-las-vegas

It was by a don't shooter who kept rolling numbers and was taking a bath on his DC bets. As I said in the article, I was surprised they didn't call a no roll but this poor sap had lost so much money and the rest of us had won so much money on his roll that I think they just let it go -- he got his seven out and that was the end of him.

Edited to add: Also as I said to the LVRJ the only way to slide dice and to get away with it is to have the table crew either on your side or distracted. It is so OBVIOUS that you can't do it and be undetected. It's not like a scammer who switches dice in the game. A slide is blatant, obvious, and done in full view.

Quote: AlanMendelson

A slide is blatant, obvious, and done in full view.

I don't disagree, but like most 'operators' they learn to be very slick. Of course, they can pick their moments, too. Somebody posted an article about it on this site, can't find it.

the job of the stickman is to keep his eyes on the dice at all times, so even if the base dealers and floorman/boxman are distracted there is always one set of eyes on the dice, plus surveillance.

the only way to pull off a slide MORE THAN ONCE is to have the dealers/crew in on it.

It can happen one time and then the crew will say "no more."

If it happens more than once something is very wrong. And if the dealers aren't in on it, then they just don't know.

Quote: MrV

It seems to me that one viable, albeit *arguably illegal* method to achieve true AP at craps is via dice sliding.
Sure, casinos are watching for it, but with a couple confederates to momentarily distract the box and the dealers, it should be doable, at least once in a game.

1992 Dice Sliding in a Casino video. One Slider braced by two accomplices who signal slider by scratching themselves at a short staffed table where it seems the BoxPosition has been eliminated.

Note: Where is the Boxman ?? What casino is this??

Please note: Accomplice at ScreenRight scratching forehead appears to be giving a relayed signal since he appears to not be in a position to have actually perceived the approach of the suit designated as Pit Boss.

Please Note: This is about Dice Sliding. Not homosexual dice sliders or sliders of homosexual dice.

Quote: FleaStiff

Please Note: This is about Dice Sliding. Not homosexual dice sliders or sliders of homosexual dice.

This is evidently humor, but I don't get the joke. Help?

Quote: odiousgambit

This is evidently humor, but I don't get the joke. Help?

No joke at all, just an attempt to keep the thread on topic because several posters seem to be derailing threads by always bringing up issues about homosexuality despite this being a gambling forum.

Quote: FleaStiff

1992 Dice Sliding in a Casino video. One Slider braced by two accomplices who signal slider by scratching themselves at a short staffed table where it seems the BoxPosition has been eliminated.

Note: Where is the Boxman ?? What casino is this??

That's a very strange video because the "associate" to our left of the shooter looks like he should be the stickman.

Edited - watched again and see the lady is handling the stick.

Yes - a very short-staffed table.

Quote: cowboy

Quote: FleaStiff

1992 Dice Sliding in a Casino video. One Slider braced by two accomplices who signal slider by scratching themselves at a short staffed table where it seems the BoxPosition has been eliminated.

Note: Where is the Boxman ?? What casino is this??

By Boxman you mean the guy who handles the stick, right? (Forgive my lack of knowledge on the terminology.) That's a very strange video because the "associate" to our left of the shooter looks like he should be the stickman! Sometimes you see the stick and sometimes you don't. There is only a brief shot of who's further to the left of the "associate" to our left of the shooter, and they look like regular players. Nobody on that side of the table is wearing the uniform that the two dealers seen are wearing.

Makes me wonder if the whole video was staged... rather incompetently.

No, the Boxman sits opposite the stick and is responsible for overseeing the house bank of chips, and generally dispenses chips for new buy-ins and color-ups. Some casinos don't have a dedicated boxman for each craps game, but have a roving floor supervisor or pit boss that handles these duties on an as-needed basis.

Every craps game must have a stick and 2 base dealers, except in the rare case of a half-open craps table, which only requires one base dealer. The boxman is optional but generally present.

Thanks - I watched again and edited my post, but you beat me to it.

Now I regret the "incompetent" comment.