"Working" bets
April 8th, 2013 at 11:03:31 AM
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On a few occasions, I have seen players tell the dealer that they want their hard-way bets "working" on the come out roll. Later, they either forget to tell the dealer or they simply did not want them to be working. Is it merely a courtesy for a dealer to ask the player who has done that if he/she wants the hard-ways working?
Similarly, on a don't pass bet when a player asks to be taken down on a don't pass bet, but does not do this every roll, should a dealer ask the player if they want to stay up or not? I know that pulling off a don't pass bet is a really dumb thing for a player to do, but should a dealer even bother to ask or, leave it totally up to the player?
Thanks.
Similarly, on a don't pass bet when a player asks to be taken down on a don't pass bet, but does not do this every roll, should a dealer ask the player if they want to stay up or not? I know that pulling off a don't pass bet is a really dumb thing for a player to do, but should a dealer even bother to ask or, leave it totally up to the player?
Thanks.
April 8th, 2013 at 11:07:34 AM
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Asking prevents arguments.
If the dealer is not certain he should ask. The player may regret his decision but that is better than having something unintended happen.
If the dealer is not certain he should ask. The player may regret his decision but that is better than having something unintended happen.
April 8th, 2013 at 11:10:16 AM
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Hardway bets are usua
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April 8th, 2013 at 11:12:20 AM
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Well, that didn't take long.
If, however, nobody is asking for bets to be "working" or taking off don't pass bets, should dealers even bother to ask before the come out roll? That would seem to be goading a player in to a bad bet, IMO.
If, however, nobody is asking for bets to be "working" or taking off don't pass bets, should dealers even bother to ask before the come out roll? That would seem to be goading a player in to a bad bet, IMO.
April 8th, 2013 at 11:14:17 AM
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I will also point out that while Betthoven is correct, I know some places where hardways are off unless called working (!!!)
It's the player's job to inspect the lammers or otherwise get a verbal from a dealer on the status before the roll resolves to avoid conflicts.
Exploiting the system and getting paid for bets that were marked off or not having bets taken down that were not marked off is something that dealers have been known to do. "Work them when they hit" is a joke in reference to this, but it happens!
But when it comes to conflict time, ultimately, the player is responsible to have the status clarified before the first comeout roll after a point is made!!
It's the player's job to inspect the lammers or otherwise get a verbal from a dealer on the status before the roll resolves to avoid conflicts.
Exploiting the system and getting paid for bets that were marked off or not having bets taken down that were not marked off is something that dealers have been known to do. "Work them when they hit" is a joke in reference to this, but it happens!
But when it comes to conflict time, ultimately, the player is responsible to have the status clarified before the first comeout roll after a point is made!!
aahigh.com
April 8th, 2013 at 11:15:50 AM
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Quote: RivaWell, that didn't take long.
If, however, nobody is asking for bets to be "working" or taking off don't pass bets, should dealers even bother to ask before the come out roll? That would seem to be goading a player in to a bad bet, IMO.
I good dealer will assure you "I got you off" if you wanted them off before each comeout roll.
A well-trained dealer quickly says "hardways work unless called off" and hopes you don't turn them off.
"You can't get paid of you don't work!" is the goading to keep them turned on.
Most people do turn them off at every opportunity on the comeout. Everyone has their own rules for when they want their hardways working though.
aahigh.com
April 8th, 2013 at 11:18:24 AM
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its always assummed off unless you specify otherwises. normally if you arent betting a line then they will ask if you want working
April 8th, 2013 at 11:23:47 AM
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Quote: nezbitits always assummed off unless you specify otherwises. normally if you arent betting a line then they will ask if you want working
I'm afraid this is not correct. "Hardways work unless called off" is the most common phrase used here in Las Vegas.
There are a very small number of casinos that turn hardways off by default on the comeout.
But your statement is not correct.
aahigh.com
April 8th, 2013 at 11:24:15 AM
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NEZ
It can be either way, we have 4 casino's close to my home and they split, two have them working and two have them off. it is better
to make sure for yourself.
dicesitter
It can be either way, we have 4 casino's close to my home and they split, two have them working and two have them off. it is better
to make sure for yourself.
dicesitter
April 8th, 2013 at 11:24:30 AM
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Quote: RivaIf, however, nobody is asking for bets to be "working" or taking off don't pass bets, should dealers even bother to ask before the come out roll? That would seem to be goading a player in to a bad bet, IMO.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
April 8th, 2013 at 11:25:20 AM
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i must be mistaken then, the 3 that i play at are all off on come out
April 8th, 2013 at 11:29:19 AM
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It's my understanding that, on a come out roll, hard ways work in Vegas but are off elsewhere.
Personally, I just go with the house rule on that.
But I agree with what others have said. Specify your intentions, and get confirmation to avoid disputes.
Personally, I just go with the house rule on that.
But I agree with what others have said. Specify your intentions, and get confirmation to avoid disputes.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
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Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 8th, 2013 at 11:31:17 AM
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I forgot which one it was, but I am 100% sure at least one place here in Vegas is off on the comeout. But it's very atypical. I made the point to them while they were here that they were in the minority for Vegas.
They, of course, couldn't care less.
They, of course, couldn't care less.
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April 8th, 2013 at 11:48:38 AM
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im in washington state... so i guess here its off?
April 8th, 2013 at 11:54:11 AM
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My experience in AC is that bets are off unless otherwise specified. However after a few rolls, if you have asked to "keep em working" then dealers generally will check with you if you forget to ask. I have even on multiple occasions been given the benefit of the doubt after the shooter made a hardway on the come out roll, after both the dealer and myself forgot to keep my bets on. Granted the few times this happened, I had been at the table for a couple of hours and had been tipping throughout. I wouldn't consider it the norm, but even so, it's nice to once in a while be treated like a good customer as opposed to the more frequent treatment of getting nickel and dimed. How is it that they charge a $10 room fee to my credit card for a comped room!?
April 8th, 2013 at 11:56:10 AM
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Quote: nezbitim in washington state... so i guess here its off?
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April 8th, 2013 at 11:59:00 AM
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[Duplicate deleted]
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April 8th, 2013 at 12:35:01 PM
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In PA dealer school we were taught they are off on the come out unless turned on. When I did this at a charity night a guy got in my face when I didn't pay him. At the charity nights we don't turn them on period as it is too much confusion on a one man table.
As to requesting it a good dealer should ask each time. As both sides know what is going on all the dealer needs say is "on again?" and that saves lots of problems.
As to requesting it a good dealer should ask each time. As both sides know what is going on all the dealer needs say is "on again?" and that saves lots of problems.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
April 8th, 2013 at 12:40:53 PM
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Quote: AZDuffmanIn PA dealer school we were taught they are off on the come out unless turned on.
This is a good thread because I'm learning that "hardways work unless called off" isn't as widespread as I had initially thought. This is good info to know. *thumbs up*
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April 8th, 2013 at 2:25:37 PM
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I think its a gaming commission rule in AC that hardways are off on the come out unless called on by the player.
In So Cal at card craps bets are off unless called on by the player. but I don't know if that is a gaming "rule" or a "house rule"?
In Vegas I've often heard "hardways are working unless called off" but I rarely bet hardways so don't pay much attention.
In So Cal at card craps bets are off unless called on by the player. but I don't know if that is a gaming "rule" or a "house rule"?
In Vegas I've often heard "hardways are working unless called off" but I rarely bet hardways so don't pay much attention.
April 8th, 2013 at 2:29:18 PM
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Quote: nezbitim in washington state... so i guess here its off?
They are "on" at Angel of the Winds. Just ask one of the dealers if you want to know.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
April 8th, 2013 at 2:59:00 PM
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Yep.Quote: AlanMendelsonIn Vegas I've often heard "hardways are working unless called off" but I rarely bet hardways so don't pay much attention.
That's why it's my assumption that Vegas is somewhat unique with this rule.
IT makes sense that they be off, since most players are rooting for a 7.
Curiously, come bet odds are off, even in Vegas. I gotta assume it's because the come bettors are rooting for a 7, so why are hard ways on?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 8th, 2013 at 3:29:57 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonIn So Cal at card craps bets are off unless called on by the player. but I don't know if that is a gaming "rule" or a "house rule"?
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:31:39 PM
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There's more variety in how vigs are handled on lay and buy bets. Especially here in town. Tons of different ways that those are handled. Well, at least 3 or 4.
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April 8th, 2013 at 3:45:49 PM
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True, but with Buy and Lay bets, the player will generally learn how they're handled before the bet is resolved. With hardways, I've seen a good number of people (especially newbies) get confused/upset when a '7' on the come-out wipes out their bets. To the casinos' credit though, the box will usually give them a break the first time it happens, which is pretty cool.
But, as someone had mentioned earlier, it would definitely make sense to have "hardways off unless called on" since most players want a 7 on the come-out.
But, as someone had mentioned earlier, it would definitely make sense to have "hardways off unless called on" since most players want a 7 on the come-out.
Fighting BS one post at a time!
April 8th, 2013 at 4:34:32 PM
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The way I understand it is there are no rules per state, at least in Nevada. The house has their own rules and are not the same identically from casino to casino. Seen several heated exchanges when a player assumed the rules were the same as the last place they played. It's their house and table and dice and it's their rules. Even the payouts differ.
I play mostly Laughlin and it seems the general rules in town are hardways are working unless called off. I can kinda see their thinking on that as why would a player have money out on the table unless they wanted action? Your chips might as well be in your rack. All rolls are random, so it makes no difference whether it's a come out or any other roll.
On another note, they have the place bets off on the co, but you can have them working if you tell the dealer and they will place a lamer on your bet's. Any rule out there is to benefit the casino, period. The only reason they pay odds at all is because that's what their competitor's are doing and they would soon be without customer's if we were'nt lured in by the easy money. All bet's in Nevada do not pay the same.
Also, [Laughlin] vigs are payed up front, and 2&12 pay double in the field.
I play mostly Laughlin and it seems the general rules in town are hardways are working unless called off. I can kinda see their thinking on that as why would a player have money out on the table unless they wanted action? Your chips might as well be in your rack. All rolls are random, so it makes no difference whether it's a come out or any other roll.
On another note, they have the place bets off on the co, but you can have them working if you tell the dealer and they will place a lamer on your bet's. Any rule out there is to benefit the casino, period. The only reason they pay odds at all is because that's what their competitor's are doing and they would soon be without customer's if we were'nt lured in by the easy money. All bet's in Nevada do not pay the same.
Also, [Laughlin] vigs are payed up front, and 2&12 pay double in the field.
April 8th, 2013 at 8:23:39 PM
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Quote: Beethoven9thDealers will usually announce "Hardways work unless called 'off'" periodically, but they won't necessarily do so on every single come-out roll. Also, the dice don't know when it is/isn't the come-out, so a working hardway bet on the come-out roll is no better/worse than at any other time.
You'll at least lose a little less money, in the long-run, if you have them off during the CO. ;)
The best hardway bet is none at all, although time before last I was there, (and I have no idea how much the guy was down) there was a guy who threw a Green on the Hard Eight, and I very promptly threw an Easy Eight. He then said, "Well, this will get me back ahead, if not, it doesn't make that much difference," and threw a Black on the Hard Eight. I said, "I'm going to try for you, buddy, but that's sure a tall order."
Sure enough, next roll, Hard Eight...pure luck!
Thank God! That's why I usually like to play by myself, when possible. I hate it when people bet big, (the House at which I play only has 2x Odds, so I bet steady $5 PL with $10 Odds, though I occasionally press to $10/$20 if I am ahead) and then I Seven-Out or roll an Easy number or some other such thing because I feel like I let the person down. I set the dice, but I don't have any control and just enough influence over them that I can finally throw my high lob and still keep them on the table better than 95% of the time...but I still feel like crap anytime I lose someone what I would consider a big bet.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
April 8th, 2013 at 10:35:00 PM
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The place that did do hardways off on the comeout, it went like this for me.
Me: "My hardways are off"
Stick: "got it."
Me: <I notice there was no off lammer> .. "I said my hardways are off."
Stick: "I said I got it."
Me: <still waiting for the lammer as the dice are being picked up> "I SAID HARDWAYS OFF, can you throw up a lammer?!?!"
Stick: "The hardways are off by default, we don't use lammers to make hardways off."
Me: "You should know that every other place here in Vegas does that differently from you guys."
Stick: "Well, here that's how we do it."
Me: "No I understand that now, but you need to understand that you guys are doing it differently than every other place in town."
Stick: "Well I work here, and that's all I care about. We're doing it right."
Me: "You may be doing it right, but I'm telling you that you're doing it differently than every other place in the city. I guess that's how you do it, but I would think that you might want to know that everybody else in town does it the other way."
Stick: "I don't know how they do it everywhere else. I only know how they do it here."
Me: "Yeah, I can see that by now. I'm only trying to help you guys out because it seems you had no clue why I might be confused about my hardways not being marked off and you're not worried about it when I'm saying HARDWAYS OFF!!!!"
I wish I could remember which place this was. I can be a real jerk, for sure, when stuff like this happens. I have no idea why I can remember all these details, but not where this actually happened. It was just in the last four weeks or so. If I remember any more details, I'll share them, but I was pretty annoyed about this. Of course it was only $1 to $4. But whatever!!
If anybody knows who in Vegas has hardways off by default, let me know.... But I know this happened, I didn't just dream it. I just forgot where.
Me: "My hardways are off"
Stick: "got it."
Me: <I notice there was no off lammer> .. "I said my hardways are off."
Stick: "I said I got it."
Me: <still waiting for the lammer as the dice are being picked up> "I SAID HARDWAYS OFF, can you throw up a lammer?!?!"
Stick: "The hardways are off by default, we don't use lammers to make hardways off."
Me: "You should know that every other place here in Vegas does that differently from you guys."
Stick: "Well, here that's how we do it."
Me: "No I understand that now, but you need to understand that you guys are doing it differently than every other place in town."
Stick: "Well I work here, and that's all I care about. We're doing it right."
Me: "You may be doing it right, but I'm telling you that you're doing it differently than every other place in the city. I guess that's how you do it, but I would think that you might want to know that everybody else in town does it the other way."
Stick: "I don't know how they do it everywhere else. I only know how they do it here."
Me: "Yeah, I can see that by now. I'm only trying to help you guys out because it seems you had no clue why I might be confused about my hardways not being marked off and you're not worried about it when I'm saying HARDWAYS OFF!!!!"
I wish I could remember which place this was. I can be a real jerk, for sure, when stuff like this happens. I have no idea why I can remember all these details, but not where this actually happened. It was just in the last four weeks or so. If I remember any more details, I'll share them, but I was pretty annoyed about this. Of course it was only $1 to $4. But whatever!!
If anybody knows who in Vegas has hardways off by default, let me know.... But I know this happened, I didn't just dream it. I just forgot where.
aahigh.com
April 8th, 2013 at 11:03:35 PM
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Quote: Ahigh
I wish I could remember which place this was. I can be a real jerk, for sure, when stuff like this happens. I have no idea why I can remember all these details, but not where this actually happened. It was just in the last four weeks or so. If I remember any more details, I'll share them, but I was pretty annoyed about this.
Wow. That was quite an exchange you had there.
I hope you can remember the place where this happened in the last four weeks or so.
April 8th, 2013 at 11:35:05 PM
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I've been trying to remember and I can't. Hopefully someone can jog my memory because I think it might even be just one place that has it this way.
Great, now this is going to drive me bonkers.
Great, now this is going to drive me bonkers.
aahigh.com
April 8th, 2013 at 11:59:11 PM
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Quote: AhighGreat, now this is going to drive me bonkers.
[remark deleted]
[g]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 9th, 2013 at 12:11:03 AM
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Quote: AhighThe place that did do hardways off on the comeout, it went like this for me.
Me: "My hardways are off"
Stick: "got it."
The conversatio
Fighting BS one post at a time!
April 9th, 2013 at 12:42:08 AM
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It was a busy table, and I wasn't sure he was talking to me. But in general I agree.
aahigh.com
April 9th, 2013 at 9:04:33 AM
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Quote: AhighI have no idea why I can remember all these details, but not where this actually happened. It was just in the last four weeks or so. If I remember any more details, I'll share them, but I was pretty annoyed about this. Of course it was only $1 to $4.
Did any of those hardways bets entail the 0.5% house edge?
April 9th, 2013 at 9:24:36 AM
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always up always working for me (place bets included)
April 9th, 2013 at 9:44:27 AM
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Quote: SanchoPanzaDid any of those hardways bets entail the 0.5% house edge?
You're right for a random shooter (which I do still bet hard ways OCCASIONALLY on random shooters), but in this instance was taking into consideration the data I have been collecting from my recorded rolls.
I do frequently bet a dollar on the hard 8 and sometimes on the hard 10 on my rolls.
I would have to check what my edge is on the hard 8, but it's not negative in theory, it's positive. In fact, I think I have a positive theoretical edge for the hard 8 hopping.
I will also do two-way hard 8's to get the crew's cooperation to call a hard 8 for me.
It's all about the hard 8 with my throw! But you knew that, right?
aahigh.com
April 10th, 2013 at 5:38:06 PM
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Well, from the input provided so far, there appears to be no "universal" craps rule whether or not "hard-way bets" are working or not working on the come out roll. It seems to be all over the board: some are "working" and, at some casinos, this same bet is "not working. Fair enough!
Here's my question... I run a "charity" game for a local non-profit. I know that there is little statistical edge either way for the house or the player on the "working" or "not-working" equation. That said, since a 7 has more chances to be rolled than any other combination, we should make these bets to always be "working". Players, on one hand, will then bitch, "hey what are you doing?" when a 7 is rolled on the come out roll and, we tell them the rules. On the other hand, if we make all hard ways "not working" some players bitch, " hey, pay me on my hard way" (if it hits) and well tell them: "that hard-ways never work on the come out unless we're told."
So, again, as a charity game that's only working for 4-6 hours per-night (tops), doesn't it make sense for us to have any/all bets that could possibly be exposed to a "7" to be "exposed", as opposed to "not exposed"? In this instance, if all the hard-ways were covered, we would drag 4 bets.
The challenge, as I see it, is to put out signage that says "all bets working unless called off". Thoughts?
Thanks.
Here's my question... I run a "charity" game for a local non-profit. I know that there is little statistical edge either way for the house or the player on the "working" or "not-working" equation. That said, since a 7 has more chances to be rolled than any other combination, we should make these bets to always be "working". Players, on one hand, will then bitch, "hey what are you doing?" when a 7 is rolled on the come out roll and, we tell them the rules. On the other hand, if we make all hard ways "not working" some players bitch, " hey, pay me on my hard way" (if it hits) and well tell them: "that hard-ways never work on the come out unless we're told."
So, again, as a charity game that's only working for 4-6 hours per-night (tops), doesn't it make sense for us to have any/all bets that could possibly be exposed to a "7" to be "exposed", as opposed to "not exposed"? In this instance, if all the hard-ways were covered, we would drag 4 bets.
The challenge, as I see it, is to put out signage that says "all bets working unless called off". Thoughts?
Thanks.
April 10th, 2013 at 7:19:43 PM
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Craps is a negative expectation game, so the more bets "working" the more likely the house will win and the players will lose.
The hard ways have some of the bigger edges for the house, so the more they work (including come outs) the better for the house.
If you run a charity be careful that you don't alienate your players. In other words, don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg or comes to your charity casino.
The hard ways have some of the bigger edges for the house, so the more they work (including come outs) the better for the house.
If you run a charity be careful that you don't alienate your players. In other words, don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg or comes to your charity casino.
April 11th, 2013 at 5:25:05 AM
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For the charity game, do what the local casino does.
Also, post it on the back wall of the table. As long as its posted, the arguments should be minimal.
Also, post it on the back wall of the table. As long as its posted, the arguments should be minimal.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
