Charitable Gaming;Craps

I seem to remember somewhere someone says pushes lose at a charity blackjack event,,,i know this is huge. For some reason thinking it was AZ duffman on here. DOn't know if he is still a member here or not. I am a little sleepy,so I may be wrong.If so, I apologize

To begin with, this event is huge. Over 250,000 people visit over the 4-day Memorial weekend. It's the largest high school fair in the USA. Gambling is just one of the events. We're able to pull this off because the school sits on 130 acres. Plus, each parent is required to put in 20 hours of work somewhere during the event. Most work all 4 days. I take the entire week off.

People come from everywhere in the State. Parking is free, however, there is a small fee to enter the festival. If somebody wants to gamble, there is a small fee to simply enter the room. Beer is $5 for 16 oz, as are mixed drinks. Popcorn is free as it makes folks buy more beer. We probably make 5,000 bags of popcorn per day.

We own 100% of the gaming tables, chips, and equipment. It's all casino quality stuff with custom layouts displaying the school's logo. I'd put it up against any small casino except the event is in a tent and the floor is grass.

Let's start with craps...we have two 14' tables. They are humming all night long. People bitch because they can't get into a game. Again, these are custom layouts made to our specs. We limit chips sales to $50 per player otherwise we'd burn through the $15,000 limit too early and then nobody would pay to enter the room and thus, they won't buy beer. It's a huge balancing act but now, with a $160,000 chip sale limit per day, we can definitely sell more chips without worrying about hitting the daily limit.

Pass line bets and don't pass have $5 max bet. We do not permit odds (slows the game down too much). Place bets pay even money. There is a field where 2 and 12 pay double. Players love the field. There is a come bet, however, players typically use place bets instead. There is not don't come bets. Players can play in the middle for $1, however, all payouts in the middle are shaved by 33% versus a casino. The players loved it and come back year after. The whole goal is to keep them happy, keep them playing and have them buy a few beers.

Roulette is different. Outside bets are $5 each. Payouts are not shaved. Inside bets require at least $5 in action at a minimum. So, a player can have 5, $1 bets or, 36 $5 bets. All inside bet payouts are shaved 33%. As mentioned, we have 2, 20' roulette tables. There is a layout on either side and the wheel rests in the middle. It takes 3 people to run each table, a dealer over each layout and 1 to spin the wheel. Each table can handle 10 players on each side. Thus, we can have 40 people playing roulette at one time. Finally, people buy unique, colored roulette chips using regular house chips which we buy back when they are done playing roulette.

Blackjack is fairly simple we have and by far the most popular game. We have 20 BJ tables. Some are $2 minimum. Some are $5 minimum. Some are $10 minimum. $10 is the max allowable bet anywhere. Typically, players just bet the table minimum.

BJ pays double (takes too long to count out 3:2). House takes all ties (ugh). 5 under 21 is an automatic winner.
We use an 8-deck shoe, however, dealers never shuffle. We have a team of workers that do nothing but shuffle decks on the side. When a dealer busts though a shoe, we grab the dirty cards and shoe and replace it with a new shoe that has already been shuffled. The entire process takes 10 seconds. When we allowed dealers to shuffle, the table was down about 40%-50% of the night. Now, there is no downtime. Finally, we have people walking the entire floor that will sell chips to players, without them having to go to the cashier's table, and possibly lose their spot/chair.

As mentioned, the real villain here was that we could only sell up to $15,000 in chips per day. Now, with that limit at $160,000 per day, it is virtually impossible to run out. And I don't see us increasing our max bet limits either, like allowing for $100 wagers, etc. Nor do I see us altering our payout formulas on the respective tables. With that said, I would appreciate any input you folds may have with regards to the $160,000 limit.

Thanks.

Riva

Quote: Riva1

As mentioned, the real villain here was that we could only sell up to $15,000 in chips per day. Now, with that limit at $160,000 per day, it is virtually impossible to run out. And I don't see us increasing our max bet limits either, like allowing for $100 wagers, etc. Nor do I see us altering our payout formulas on the respective tables. With that said, I would appreciate any input you folds may have with regards to the $160,000 limit.

I would agree to no alterations in table layout markings or payouts.....you have volunteers with experience and don't want to throw new things at them needlessly.

I would make one table a $100.00 table and see what action you get. Good crew with "quick change" signs to take your limits back down OR to up them even more, depending on how you decide things are going.

I would increase the number of "wandering cashiers".

Look for chokepoints and eliminate them. Faster distribution of free popcorn would be good. Larger bag? Maybe a wandering popcorn girl? Napkins for buttery fingers?

Sure, we've had winners. Players would not come back if nobody won. Plus, we cap the overall winning at $500. Lucky players easily get around this as they simply give anything over $500 to another person. Or, they go to the cashier table more than once.

We had a guy win $5,000 in 15 minutes on roulette. This was when we used to rent roulette wheels. He is in bed with the rental company that brought in a crooked wheel. Turns out the pill would only drop in a certain range on the wheel. All his table beds aligned with the range on the wheel.

The dealers were sweating bullets, but I was calm. The player got nervous with me watching him the entire time. He figured that the jig was up so he grabbed his $5,000 and walk to the cashier's table to cash out. The head cashier told the fellow that there was/is a $500 cap on winnings.

He went absolutely ballistic. We gave him his $500 and the police escorted him out. When we opened the next day, I noticed that the 32" wheel had been replaced with a 28" wheel. That's what convinced me that the rental company was in on the caper.

A few months later, a friend of the school who happens to be in the gaming-table business donated two, brand-new, 32",casino-quality wheels to the school. They are used 4 days per year.

Quote: Riva1

Sure, we've had winners. Players would not come back if nobody won. Plus, we cap the overall winning at $500. Lucky players easily get around this as they simply give anything over $500 to another person. Or, they go to the cashier table more than once.

We had a guy win $5,000 in 15 minutes on roulette. This was when we used to rent roulette wheels. He is in bed with the rental company that brought in a crooked wheel. Turns out the pill would only drop in a certain range on the wheel. All his table beds aligned with the range on the wheel.

The dealers were sweating bullets, but I was calm. The player got nervous with me watching him the entire time. He figured that the jig was up so he grabbed his $5,000 and walk to the cashier's table to cash out. The head cashier told the fellow that there was/is a $500 cap on winnings.

He went absolutely ballistic. We gave him his $500 and the police escorted him out. When we opened the next day, I noticed that the 32" wheel had been replaced with a 28" wheel. That's what convinced me that the rental company was in on the caper.

A few months later, a friend of the school who happens to be in the gaming-table business donated two, brand-new, 32",casino-quality wheels to the school. They are used 4 days per year.

If the cap on winning is $500, then how could you continue to accept wagers from someone who is on a hot streak at a roullete table that ran him up to plus $5000?

Every bet you accepted from him once he was up $500 was a risk free bet for the house. He was either going to lose , or win money he’d never see

You allowed someone to exceed the win max of $500, and he won $5,000....but you were only going to pay him $500?

Huh?

Wouldn’t it have been advisable to tell him this as you watched in case he missed reading the sign? If you were watching the action...you had zero risk after $500. He either loses $4,500 back or you don’t pay him the $4,500 beyond the $500.

This entire set up makes me a bit uncomfortable as it’s really a charity deal and based on odds set up....this should have a very casual, fun type atmosphere as opposed to a typical casino environment. It sounds like these people come to gamble as opposed to come to a charity event.

I have honestly never heard of a casino night fundraiser set up in this manner. It was always buy fake chips and play and at the end of the night use whatever chips you have to buy or bid on donated stuff. I’ve never heard of casino night and people walking off with cash winnings.

We have people win more than $500 all the time. Typically, they give anything over $500 to a pal and settle up outside. And there's always a situation where when someone is up, they lose it back later on.

I should have mentioned that there are signs posted every 6 feet around the room, stating the max winnings is $500. Plus, there is a huge sign saying the same thing right where players buy chips.

Again, players who win in excess of $500 skate around the issue by simply giving chips to another person to cash in for them, in exchange for a beer.

No, this is a real cash game. People don't cash in chips for a toaster oven or electric toothbrush. They cash in chips at the end of the night and get real cash back for whatever they have in their pockets.

It is a risky venture for the house. The house could get creamed if they do not know what they are doing. Players always try to cheat, and sometimes dealers are not very good and make mistakes. I've been doing this for 20 years, and we have NEVER lost money. Some individual tables get murdered, but the overall gambling activity has always made a profit. Some nights are better than others, but we have NEVER lost money from gambling. Then, when you take in the door cover charge, beer and pizza revenue and the $500 cap on winnings, this is almost a ZERO risk venture.

We can calculate, almost to the penny, what each person that is gambling, what that person will net us in profit. The issue was, that none of those numbers could happen if you ran out of chips that you can sell to players. With a $160,000 daily chip sale limit, more people will pay to come into the room, more people will gamble (without the house changing any wagers or payouts) and more people will buy more pizza and more beer.

My question to you folks is, what if anything would you change now that the chip sale limit is $160,000 per day?

.

Quote: Riva1

On roulette, every payout is shaved by 33%. If a player hits a single number, say 16, the payout is 24 to 1, not 36 to 1.
Call it unfair, however, we've had tons of players walk away with more than they came in with. 100% OK with us. We want winners.

i doubt that.

24 for 1 is a 37% edge. Winners would be rare excluding people that play for just a few minutes

Quote: Riva1

We have people win more than $500 all the time. Typically, they give anything over $500 to a pal and settle up outside. And there's always a situation where when someone is up, they lose it back later on.

I should have mentioned that there are signs posted every 6 feet around the room, stating the max winnings is $500. Plus, there is a huge sign saying the same thing right where players buy chips.

Again, players who win in excess of $500 skate around the issue by simply giving chips to another person to cash in for them, in exchange for a beer.

No, this is a real cash game. People don't cash in chips for a toaster oven or electric toothbrush. They cash in chips at the end of the night and get real cash back for whatever they have in their pockets.

It is a risky venture for the house. The house could get creamed if they do not know what they are doing. Players always try to cheat, and sometimes dealers are not very good and make mistakes. I've been doing this for 20 years, and we have NEVER lost money. Some individual tables get murdered, but the overall gambling activity has always made a profit. Some nights are better than others, but we have NEVER lost money from gambling. Then, when you take in the door cover charge, beer and pizza revenue and the $500 cap on winnings, this is almost a ZERO risk venture.

We can calculate, almost to the penny, what each person that is gambling, what that person will net us in profit. The issue was, that none of those numbers could happen if you ran out of chips that you can sell to players. With a $160,000 daily chip sale limit, more people will pay to come into the room, more people will gamble (without the house changing any wagers or payouts) and more people will buy more pizza and more beer.

My question to you folks is, what if anything would you change now that the chip sale limit is $160,000 per day?

.

Is the $500 max win per player your own house rule, or a law ?

If it’s your own house rule , and you still allow people to win much more than that and you have no problems with them going through the process of having to find a pal to cash the chips in, then why have the rule at all ?

You make a great point. Players that play for a short period of time, win big and then walk out are not good things. On the rare occasion that I play at a real casino, if I win right away, I am out of there.

However, at this type of event, the patrons are there from the opening bell (3:00 pm) until the last call (1:00 am). They would never, in a zillion years, go to a real Casino and plop down $25 a chip on every bet. They are there to enjoy a fun summer evening, in a faux-casino environment, and are prepared to buy $100 in chips and drink a bunch of beers.

And while some win, we are happy with that because it keeps people coming back.

Quote: Riva1

We have people win more than $500 all the time. Typically, they give anything over $500 to a pal and settle up outside. And there's always a situation where when someone is up, they lose it back later on.

I should have mentioned that there are signs posted every 6 feet around the room, stating the max winnings is $500. Plus, there is a huge sign saying the same thing right where players buy chips.

Again, players who win in excess of $500 skate around the issue by simply giving chips to another person to cash in for them, in exchange for a beer.

No, this is a real cash game. People don't cash in chips for a toaster oven or electric toothbrush. They cash in chips at the end of the night and get real cash back for whatever they have in their pockets.

It is a risky venture for the house. The house could get creamed if they do not know what they are doing. Players always try to cheat, and sometimes dealers are not very good and make mistakes. I've been doing this for 20 years, and we have NEVER lost money. Some individual tables get murdered, but the overall gambling activity has always made a profit. Some nights are better than others, but we have NEVER lost money from gambling. Then, when you take in the door cover charge, beer and pizza revenue and the $500 cap on winnings, this is almost a ZERO risk venture.

We can calculate, almost to the penny, what each person that is gambling, what that person will net us in profit. The issue was, that none of those numbers could happen if you ran out of chips that you can sell to players. With a $160,000 daily chip sale limit, more people will pay to come into the room, more people will gamble (without the house changing any wagers or payouts) and more people will buy more pizza and more beer.

My question to you folks is, what if anything would you change now that the chip sale limit is $160,000 per day?

.

Good luck with it. I have nothing to really offer. I find it hard to believe any serious or even casual gambler would ever partake in this for gaming.

The fact that you have people colluding with each other to get around the $500 limits AND cheaters tells me you are dealing with low brow customers in something that is strictly a casual type charity event. At those odds...that’s all it should be, imo.

The entire thing is a bit strange to me. Are you running a charity or do you get hired by a charity and charge them to run this show, get a percentage of profits or whatever..?

Who is the charity?

Quote: michael99000

Is the $500 max win per player your own house rule, or a law?

If it’s your own house rule, and you still allow people to win much more than that and you have no problems with them going through the process of having to find a pal to cash the chips in, then why have the rule at all?

First, you don't know how much a person has won until they go to cash out; if they turn in $500 in chips, you automatically know that anything over $500 was offed to a pal. Not a big deal. We look at it from a macro perspective; specifically, if we sell $15,000 in chips during the night, and we give back $7,000 to players at the end of the night, we've made $8,000 from "gambling." We could care less if only one person, or 5 people, or 500 people won that $7,000. The bottom line is, the house has made $8,000 for the night. Who really cares who's pocket it goes in? Not me.

Here's the big issue: We make as much from cover charges and beer and pizza sales as we do from net gambling revenue. When the house burns through its $15,000 chip sales limit, nobody will come into the room and, as a result, there is no incremental beer and pizza revenue.

Now, with $160,000 per day to sell chips for gambling, my question remains, as I have described our games, how would you leverage that $160,000. We'll still charge the same $ for cover and, we'll still sell beer at $5 per cup.
This is a gambling questions!

Quote: TDVegas

Good luck with it. I have nothing to really offer. I find it hard to believe any serious or even casual gambler would ever partake in this for gaming.

The fact that you have people colluding with each other to get around the $500 limits AND cheaters tells me you are dealing with low brow customers in something that is strictly a casual type charity event. At those at’s all it should be, imo.

The entire thing is a bit strange to me. Are you running a charity or do you get hired by a charity and charge them to run this show, get a percentage of profits or whatever..?

Who is the charity?

I am and always have been an unpaid volunteer. I give my time and knowledge of gambling because I simply believe in the mission of this particular organization and this is just one way to generate money for that organization. Nuf said.

Two exceptions: I get free popcorn (like everybody else) and a free beer at the end of the night.

With the daily chip sales cap going from $15k to $160k, where will all the players sit? It sounds like folks are already grousing about not getting a spot on the craps tables.

Maybe the number of tables/games needs to be expanded?

How about Keno or Bingo?

Quote: Riva1

First, you don't know how much a person has won until they go to cash out; if they turn in $500 in chips, you automatically know that anything over $500 was offed to a pal. Not a big deal. We look at it from a macro perspective; specifically, if we sell $15,000 in chips during the night, and we give back $7,000 to players at the end of the night, we've made $8,000 from "gambling." We could care less if only one person, or 5 people, or 500 people won that $7,000. The bottom line is, the house has made $8,000 for the night. Who really cares who's pocket it goes in? Not me.

Here's the big issue: We make as much from cover charges and beer and pizza sales as we do from net gambling revenue. When the house burns through its $15,000 chip sales limit, nobody will come into the room and, as a result, there is no incremental beer and pizza revenue.

Now, with $160,000 per day to sell chips for gambling, my question remains, as I have described our games, how would you leverage that $160,000. We'll still charge the same $ for cover and, we'll still sell beer at $5 per cup.
This is a gambling questions!

I read all that. And I applaud the time and hard work you put into volunteering there.

But I still don’t understand the reasoning behind limiting players to $500 max win for the day. Especially given that you’re ok watching them win $1000s at a game and recruiting friends to cash in those chips in $500 increments. You are making things more difficult for people who are already there playing games at horrible odds in the name of charity. It doesn’t make sense.

Quote: michael99000

But I still don’t understand the reasoning behind limiting players to $500 max win for the day.

It is archaic and unwise given the 160,000 limit, but I think it takes courage to make such a substantial change.

More pizzas, saltier pop corn, etc. is fine but you really should have at least ONE table for high rollers now that your limits on chip sales is so radically altered. I know this will require good crews and your close attention but have some courage. The law has changed and you should change with it!

Quote: FleaStiff

It is archaic and unwise given the 160,000 limit, but I think it takes courage to make such a substantial change.

More pizzas, saltier pop corn, etc. is fine but you really should have at least ONE table for high rollers now that your limits on chip sales is so radically altered. I know this will require good crews and your close attention but have some courage. The law has changed and you should change with it!

I agree. If you’re gonna alter all the game odds into nearly highway robbery territory , at least make cashing out a smooth process if by some miracle I manage to overcome them.

What if I’m there by myself and I manage to win $2000? I gotta walk around tapping strangers on the shoulder and buy beers in exchange for a favor just to get what’s rightfully mine to begin with

Quote: michael99000

I read all that. I applaud the time and hard work you put into volunteering there.

But I still don’t understand the reasoning behind limiting players to $500 max win for the day. Especially given that you’re ok watching them win $1000s at a game and recruiting friends to cash in those chips in $500 increments. You are making things more difficult for people who are already there playing games at horrible odds in the name of charity. It doesn’t make sense.

Respectfully, what you do not understand is that there are or 300-500 people in a room making $5.00 bets all night long over 10 full hours. 35% win. 65% lose. The winners are happy. Losers are happy. Nobody got murdered. Beer is $5. and popcorn is free.

What I'm asking you is: now that I can sell $165,000 in chips per day, versus a measly $15,000 per day, how should I attempt to leverage that chip sale advantage with the current table layout and payout schedule? That's all.

Quote: Riva1

Respectfully, what you do not understand is that there are or 300-500 people in a room making $5.00 bets all night long over 10 full hours. 35% win. 65% lose. The winners are happy. Losers are happy. Nobody got murdered. Beer is $5. and popcorn is free.

What I'm asking you is: now that I can sell $165,000 in chips per day, versus a measly $15,000 per day, how should I attempt to leverage that chip sale advantage with the current table layout and payout schedule? That's all.

If you are selling $15,000 and there are already between 300-500 in the room gambling with that money....$30 to $50 per head.....and you aren't increasing the room size, the table count or minimums....I don't see the point of adding 11x the dollar amount ($165,000). Do you force a minimum buy in?

You can't add more people to the room and if they are buying in chips for $30 to $50 anyway....the only solution I see would be to force a minimum buy in...say $300 to $500. Can the clientele support this? Might want to raise the minimums in the hope they lose more of the $165,000 faster.

If the 300 people are buying in for the $15,000....it's impossible to force them to buy in for 11x more than that...unless you actually force them to by denying entrance otherwise

I see no easy solution. The buy ins, minimum wagers are based on what the people can afford....not what you can offer.

Quote: Riva1

What I'm asking you is: now that I can sell $165,000 in chips per day, versus a measly $15,000 per day, how should I attempt to leverage that chip sale advantage with the current table layout and payout schedule? That's all.

Make the beer free and add free hi-balls. Drunks lose far more money than semi-sober people.

But buy some real good party insurance. The first homeward bound car accident that kills someone will be the end of the event.

We control over-consumption pretty well. There are several uniformed and plainclothed police officers in the tent from open to close. If they see someone who appears drunk, they approach that person. Plus, anybody that serves alcohol in Michigan must be TIPS certified by the State. Lastly, every person at the entire event has to enter and exit via the same gate. There are tons of police at the gate at all times.

Again, I see this entire thing as a big plus for us. Many times a person will make an initial buy-in early in the night of say, $100. If they bust out an hour or so later, they'll come back to the cashier's table, and we can't sell them more chips because we maxed out at $15,000. Basically, their evening is done by 9:00 PM and we're open until 1:00 am.

Now, with a huge bank, it is highly unlikely that we would not have the chips to sell a player late into the night.

Again, I see another challenge is simply having enough games and tables for people to play, regardless of the game. It drives me crazy to see players walking around the room with a 32-ounce beer cup full of chips looking for an empty chair or open slot.

A pal of mine recommended that we set up 4 or 5 "let it ride" games. Five tables could handle 35 players using only five dealers. Naturally, we'd have to shave the payouts on the high end and keep the wager amount to a max of $5 or maybe $10 per spot. I have watched "let it ride" in a casino. To me, it's like a money machine for the house. Plus, having five tables means that if one table or two gets crushed, you'll have the three others to protect them.

Any thoughts on this game or suggestions?

As always, thanks.