Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 9:55:51 AM permalink
I help run a licensed gambling activity for a local non-profit. They have about 20 events per-year to raise money for their organization. It is real-money wagering. I have a couple of questions as it related to craps, one of our most popular games, despite the payoffs on most prop bets being reduced by about 33% (a "12" pays 20 to 1).

Question #1:

For all the years I have been volunteering there, they have never allowed a player to take odds on a pass line bet or lay odds on a don't pass. They simply pay even money when those bets win. Nobody knows why this policy is there but I suspect the volunteers (non professional) dealers simply don't know how to do the math, so they just pay even money because its easy to do.

Many players become annoyed at this and walk from the table. I am suggesting that, if we are not going to allow a player to take or lay odds, that we at least allow the player to increase the pass line be up to double the original bet once the point has been established. For example, player has a $10 pass line bet and the point is 6, the player would put another $10 on top of his/her six. If the six wins, then the player would be paid even money, $20. While it's not odds, it's still a $20 win instead of $10. The trade off for allowing the player to do this on the pass line that once the wager is increased, the money cannot be taken down until it wins or loses.

The old timers that run the game are fearful or losing twice as much as originally bet. I contend that this is the best thing that we could do because (1) the money is married to the table, (2) it's twice as much money, and (3) a seven is going to appear more than any other number on the table. On the "don't pass" I would not allow this to happen. I would pay even money on whatever the original wager is. Thoughts?

Question #2:

Again, the old timers will not allow a player to make a pass line bet after the point has been established, nor will they allow a player to take down a "don't pass" bet once the point has been established. I tell them that they're crazy because, even if the point is a 6 or 8, there are still more ways for a 7 to roll than anything else. Plus, I tell them that if a player wants to take down a don't pass bet, we should kiss the guy for doing us a favor. My advice to them was/is that we should always allow a player to jump in on a pass line bet up to the house max ($20) but not allow a player to jump in on a "don't pass" at any time, as well as letting the don't bets already on the table to get taken off at any time. They look at me like I'm from the planet Neptune. Thoughts? Thanks.
tringlomane
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April 3rd, 2013 at 10:40:42 AM permalink
#1. I think it's not a bad idea to forbid traditional odds bets. It increases your variance with no increase in the expected return, which is the LAST thing a charity house wants. If you allowed them, I definitely would limit them to 1X. As for your idea, you could do it, but I feel like you are making suckers out of anyone making the wager, especially for any point other than 6 or 8.

#2 of course you're right, but they just don't get it. And for anyone that doesn't clearly understand the math of craps, they are taking the safer route of assuming "taking down bets" = "always cheating".
sodawater
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April 3rd, 2013 at 12:10:21 PM permalink
traditionally, in craps, players are allowed to "press" their pass line bets any time they want, up to the table limit. No one does this, of course, because it's a ridiculously bad play.
AndyGB
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April 3rd, 2013 at 12:25:49 PM permalink
The odds question came up as a possible problem while we were contemplating a craps game at a similar gaming event (which never got off the ground). The concern here was just that the dealing would be more complex, could it be that your people are worried about the different payouts? Memorizing the additional amounts, calculating on the fly, all while keeping the game going? If so, we were considering allowing only 345x odds, and only exact. i.e. you can either take zero or 345, nothing in between.
Ayecarumba
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April 3rd, 2013 at 12:26:07 PM permalink
Welcome to the board Riva.

Is the charity unhappy with the amount of money they are collecting from the Craps table(s) using the current set up? If they are not, why change anything?

If their goal is to make more money, allowing players to press their passline bets, and take down Don't Pass bets is a good way to do it. Show the "Old Timers" the math. Maybe that will help.

Good help is hard to find, so if you do institute the changes you suggest, making sure the dealers understand that passline bets can only be increased, and don't pass bets can only be taken off (and not vice versa) is VERY important.

Can you share what state your charity is located in? It strikes me as unusual that craps for cash is allowed, even for a charity event. Usually, winnings have to be exchanged for goods, or entries into a drawing for prizes.

How is the cash controlled? What's to keep unscrupulous dealers from overpaying their player/partner in order to split profits later?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
FleaStiff
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April 3rd, 2013 at 12:53:37 PM permalink
Charity games often require speed and simplicity. Rich donors milling about want to play, not listen to complicated lectures. Also hard working volunteers don't really want to become great craps dealers, just competent ones.

Players usually like realism. Even faux realism such as dealers clearing their hands and requiring money to be put on the table and not handed to them.

So I would say avoid capping bets.
Take odds.

If the volunteers need a lecture and some practice.... give it to them.

Realism is what makes the night enjoyable and brings in the money!!

Have you considered a rule of 'No Don't Bets Allowed if the shooter is pregnant"? That can make for a fun evening.
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 1:05:48 PM permalink
Thanks for the greetings. No, we're not unhappy with the take but we always try to make more. And, you are right; finding good help is hard to find. As a school, most of our volunteers disappear once their child graduates. Still, some people like me hang around for years after.

We are in Michigan and real-money games are 100% legal, however; must be licensed by the state and come with many controls and regulations. Plus, the house can set the game rule any way it wants. For example, in black jack, the house takes all ties (ouch), and in roulette, if you hit one number, we pay $25 to 1, not 36 to 1. And, like I said, in craps, all the prop bets pay out about 33% less than what a normal casino would pay out. Players don't complain (much) as they know the money is for a school. Plus, it is the only place they can go in the State and bet as little as $2 per-bet on certain games versus the $25 per-bet at the local casinos. One other thing..a person can only win up to $500 at an event with no limit how much the house can win. Players that win more know how to get around this though.

Cash is 100% controlled by the house. Players buy chips from the cashier's table. NOBODY touches cash except the house. Plus, we have our own custom chips. We train the dealers pretty well but, sometime mistakes are made. We try to keep that to a minimum.

As for dealers cheating with a shill? First, we watch every table VERY closely. Plus, most of the dealers are volunteers, however that situation could still happen. So, we arbitrarily rotate dealers every 1/2 hour or so and watch to see if players follow the dealer. Plus, we limit the amount any dealer has in their tray to $100 any any time. If the dealer busts out, the dealer is either cheating, unlucky or simply not a good dealer. And, there are ways to handle each scenario.

As to my question regarding craps, I tend to agree that the reason we never allowed free odds is that it was probably just too hard for the dealers to execute and it delayed the game. That's why I want to allow the player to simply press their pass line bet and for players to be able jump in after the point (just the opposite for "don't pass) . Agree, it probably a dumb thing to do because if they press the pass line bet, the money stays on the table whereas, the player could take the same amount and "place" the same number and take the bet down any time they want. Oh well.
tringlomane
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April 3rd, 2013 at 1:12:23 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Agree, it probably a dumb thing to do because if they press the pass line bet, the money stays on the table whereas, the player could take the same amount and "place" the same number and take the bet down any time they want. Oh well.



What odds are you giving on place bets? Or is that even money as well?
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 1:31:37 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Charity games often require speed and simplicity. Rich donors milling about want to play, not listen to complicated lectures. Also hard working volunteers don't really want to become great craps dealers, just competent ones.

Players usually like realism. Even faux realism such as dealers clearing their hands and requiring money to be put on the table and not handed to them.

So I would say avoid capping bets.
Take odds.

If the volunteers need a lecture and some practice.... give it to them.

Realism is what makes the night enjoyable and brings in the money!!

Have you considered a rule of 'No Don't Bets Allowed if the shooter is pregnant"? That can make for a fun evening.



WOW..some really good thoughts here. Glad I found this site.

Most of our players are not affiliated with our organization other than they come here to gamble. Basically, they are strangers that know that we have events on certain dates. And, it is far from a high-end "millionaires party", Basically, our players come from anywhere and they are happy that they can make $2 bets, drink some (lots) of beer and have a fun night. Sure, they want to win and we know that a few will. But we are in it for the $$ at the same time.

Agree. "realism" is what makes the night enjoyable and brings in the money. We own all our own tables with custom layouts, etc. It is real professional looking. We don't rent any equipment which pays HUGE dividends over the long term. My job is simply to squeeze a much juice out of the lemon as possible. If that takes more training, so be it.
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 1:34:10 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

What odds are you giving on place bets? Or is that even money as well?



Even money on place bets. Game moves pretty fast.
FleaStiff
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April 3rd, 2013 at 2:28:19 PM permalink
Okay, so maybe the donors are not really all that aware of and enthusiastic about the beneficiary, but they know its a charitable event and they know they can get booze and gamble and they know they want a good time.

So simplify and streamline the rules. Make sure everyone knows what pays what. LARGE signage for the players. Good cheat sheet for the dealers. Practice for the dealers. Sharing of questions so it isn't the same question all night long. Keep things moving and keep things jovial.

Controlling your own tables and chairs and having your own layouts is great. You can train and retain your own dealers. I would not allow the capping of pass line bets since realism over rides everything. Allow odds and train the dealers. If you want you could have 345 odds but require max odds so as to keep the speed up. They know what to bet and you know what to pay.

Squeezing the lemon sounds fun. Get the BJ and Craps rules well understood and practiced and lemon juice will be flowing all night long. Let the players enjoy their beers and enjoy the bets. Make it a casino that is really generous with beer and really generous with low limit bets at a fast moving table The players will enjoy the night if things move fast and flawlessly. That requires dealers who know the drill.
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 2:58:06 PM permalink
Again, great advice. Thanks.

In the past, our craps bets were $1 min. $5 max with no odds. It drove me crazy however, I had to defer to the "old-times" some of who had worked the craps game for 20+ years. Frankly, if I am going volunteer to work a table for 8 hours only to make a grand or so, I'll write the school a check and stay home. So, recently I finally got them to agree to a $2 minimum $5 max with no odds. Their fear is the more money on the table the more we could lose. I take just the opposite but understated the complexity of calculating payouts.

No sure I understand you suggestion "If you want you could have 345 odds but require max odds so as to keep the speed up."
tringlomane
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April 3rd, 2013 at 3:29:27 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Again, great advice. Thanks.

In the past, our craps bets were $1 min. $5 max with no odds. It drove me crazy however, I had to defer to the "old-times" some of who had worked the craps game for 20+ years. Frankly, if I am going volunteer to work a table for 8 hours only to make a grand or so, I'll write the school a check and stay home. So, recently I finally got them to agree to a $2 minimum $5 max with no odds. Their fear is the more money on the table the more we could lose. I take just the opposite but understated the complexity of calculating payouts.

No sure I understand you suggestion "If you want you could have 345 odds but require max odds so as to keep the speed up."



Well, what I would worry about is if many players just play passline bets. Then throwing out things like odds could lead to more dealer errors since they are volunteers and possibly lower the house's take. Do you know offhand how much the craps table is typically making? Is the house edge thin enough that it is losing on "bad nights"? How much is it taking in versus charity blackjack?

In the long term, you have the right idea. Make the game more real, get more action, and you will get a greater take longterm because you'll have more volume. But your older volunteers have a valid concern. The more money that is being wagered, the more you will be risking. What kind of losses can you afford here if the pass line gets hot wins 65% for a night (1 in 200 chance over 60 points)? If you have $10k in total action on the passline, that hot 65% passline may just have cost you $3000 for the night. Can the charity take a nightly hit like that? A consistent profit is more important for a charity casino, imo.
FleaStiff
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April 3rd, 2013 at 4:00:30 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

No sure I understand you suggestion "If you want you could have 345 odds but require max odds so as to keep the speed up."

You would be allowing an Odds Bet but instead of 3x4x5x being an upper limit, it would be a Min/Max. In other words if a player wanted to make ANY odds bet he would have to make the Maximum odds bet that was alllowable. This keeps all the players and all the dealers informed of what the rules are and what the math is. No slowdowns, no lectures.
rudeboyoi
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April 3rd, 2013 at 4:42:25 PM permalink
he means if you were required to bet exactly 3x4x5x odds if you wanted to make an odds wager, all would pay the same amount on a winning wager so nothing to think about.

3x on the 4 and 10
4x on the 5 and 9
5x on the 6 and 8

for a $5 passline bet:

$15x2=$30
$20x(3/2)=$30
$25x(6/5)=$30
Ayecarumba
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April 3rd, 2013 at 4:45:28 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Even money on place bets. Game moves pretty fast.



Even the 4/10? If so, don't worry about adding free odds if players are making that bet... Egads, it's a gold mine.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 5:30:52 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Well, what I would worry about is if many players just play passline bets. Then throwing out things like odds could lead to more dealer errors since they are volunteers and possibly lower the house's take. Do you know offhand how much the craps table is typically making? Is the house edge thin enough that it is losing on "bad nights"? How much is it taking in versus charity blackjack?

In the long term, you have the right idea. Make the game more real, get more action, and you will get a greater take longterm because you'll have more volume. But your older volunteers have a valid concern. The more money that is being wagered, the more you will be risking. What kind of losses can you afford here if the pass line gets hot wins 65% for a night (1 in 200 chance over 60 points)? If you have $10k in total action on the passline, that hot 65% passline may just have cost you $3000 for the night. Can the charity take a nightly hit like that? A consistent profit is more important for a charity casino, imo.



Even with $2 / $5 no odds, we'll make anywhere from $2,500 to $5,000 on craps on a busy night (we own one, 14' craps table with custom layout--thinking of buying another 14' table as the game is popular.) On some nights, we've made as little as $500 for the entire night's work (ouch). I've been working there for 12 years and we have NEVER lost money on craps. Came close one night, but we always get lucky at the last hour (1:00 AM) when the beer takes over and the players start making stupid max bets in the middle ($5 boxcars)

Obviously, we could have a bad night, lose $3000 on craps, but all the other games always make money to offset the loss. I simply hate working 8 hours without hitting it out of the park. We have 20 blackjacks that, on average, make about $150 per-night, 10 holdem that have $0 risk, and two, 20' roulette (my personal ATM's). Plus we have a big six wheel.

Bottom line..on an average night, we make 5k to 10K. On a good night, we make 20k. I want to make it each night in to a 50K night however, I don't think that can happen by tweaking betting rules. Rather, it has to come from tightening up the games while allowing bigger wagers. Thoughts?
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 5:59:29 PM permalink
So, if I understand this right, you're saying that if we allow free odds (on a pass-line bet) we simply set policy that if a player wants "odds" they can not take "up to" 1x -5x, they have to bet the maximum odds, So, for the sake of conversation, if one wants "free odds" the must bet 2x, "no more/no less"? (gulp)
tringlomane
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April 3rd, 2013 at 6:05:32 PM permalink
Well, if you're getting enough prop bets in the middle, you would be okay to offer some odds, but 3-4-5X is pretty liberal (even though it makes the odds payouts consistent). If I was going to offer odds, I probably would just start out at 1X and go from there. People should be able to multiply by 2, 1.5, and 1.2, it's really not that damn hard. And if you want to make more money, you really need to up the max if it is currently $5 for craps. Personally though, I think you're doing pretty damn well for the school as is. 35 games total? 7 of 13 Missouri casinos have less tables than this. The 7 smallest casinos (135 total games) running roughly ~165 hours/week earned $3.64M for the month of january.

Data can be found here:
http://www.mgc.dps.mo.gov/2013_fin/FY13_FinReport/detail0113.XLW

Scale that down to a daily basis: $117k/day

Scale down from 135 tables to 35 tables: $30.4k/day

Scale down playing hours (assume MO casinos get 12 solid gaming hours/day vs. your 8): $20.3k/night

If you scale up the max bets up a bit ($10 would be enough if your craps table is currently $5), your charity night will rival that of a small state-run casino at the tables, which is all you could really ever hope to do. With 200 patrons, a $20k night means on average each person is dropping $100! It may be for a good cause and all, but $100 per person is nothing to sneeze at either. Hoping for $50k nights are just unrealistic, imo.
ewjones080
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April 3rd, 2013 at 6:59:28 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

traditionally, in craps, players are allowed to "press" their pass line bets any time they want, up to the table limit. No one does this, of course, because it's a ridiculously bad play.



Edit: no good players do this. I know first hand that new players do this all the time as they don't know any better.. This would be great to allow for a charity casino... The house should make a lot ore money.. But you can never forget about variance..
GiorgioFromYuma
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April 3rd, 2013 at 8:05:52 PM permalink
They don't allow odds on the bet because it isn't profitable. Since they only have the game once a month or so, they aren't concerned about offering a fair game, they are concerned about making as much money as possible in that night while still getting people to come and play. They can't risk a table getting hot and cleaning them out and taking money from the church/cause whatever it is, because they won't be around to grind it out over the long term. There's a fair chance of a table getting hot in a casino and costing them thousands of dollars, which a charity can't afford, so they make the games so bad that it is literally impossible to lose money no matter how hot the table/better gets.

You're putting too much thought into it. They aren't about offering a fair or official game, they just want a simple way for people to donate money while still having a little fun.
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 8:26:25 PM permalink
Again, 100% spot on! Now, here's the reality...

While we're "open for business" 8-hours per-day, the fact is, that the room does not really get busy until about 8:00 PM and people start to go home shortly after midnight. So, in the final analysis, our "peak" activity is about 4 hours (max). After midnight, we have about 50% occupancy and after 1:00 AM, about 30%. At 2:00 AM, we close up shop! At 5:00 AM, after clean-up and money count, I hit the hay! :)
rudeboyoi
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April 3rd, 2013 at 9:30:40 PM permalink
can make it a $3 table. offer place bets that pay 3:3 on 6 or 8, 4:3 on 5 or 9, and 5:3 on 4 or T. and can offer "single" odds of $3 on the 6 and 8, $4 on the 5 and 9, and $5 on the 6 and 8.
FleaStiff
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April 4th, 2013 at 1:47:42 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

You would be allowing an Odds Bet but instead of 3x4x5x being an upper limit, it would be a Min/Max. In other words if a player wanted to make ANY odds bet he would have to make the Maximum odds bet that was alllowable. This keeps all the players and all the dealers informed of what the rules are and what the math is. No slowdowns, no lectures.



Your goal is to make money.
That means to satisfy demand and do it "fast and furiously without glitches".
You do not want players that are confused and have to ask questions that slow the game down.
You do not want dealers that are confused and have to ask questions of each other, you or who will be making mistakes.

I forget what you do now, but its a pretty low table with no odds bets allowed.
That is a poor offering to people who like craps. I have a "2x odds" game two hours away from me and I've never even considered going to it. I have a 5x game a half hour away and a 3x4x5x game four hours away. I do each of those but never the lousy cheap place offering a mere 2x odds bet. Most Cruise Ships offer a 2x table because they have a captive market and don't have to be attractive much less generous.

So IF you decide to offer an odds bet, then just about anything you do will improve the situation. Even if you just do that lousy cheap 2x odds it is a heck of an improvement over No Odds Bets. You could however go to 5x odds or to "up to 5x odds" and not be risking taking a bath. The risk is in COMPLEXITY of informing the players and in educating the dealers in how to make proper odds payouts. 3x4x5x odds is a choice also that is mathematically very close to 5x and is simple in that the payout on a max bet is always the same, so players and dealers won't be confused.

Offering Place Bets that pay even money is a veritable Gold Mine for you.

Offering one third shaved payouts on most prop bets is quite an edge for the house also.

The major goal for you, particularly for your "busy time" is smooth operation. Dealers can't be confused on payouts or slow to calculate them. I don't think it makes much difference which decisions you make, the evening is going to be determined by speed and ease of calculation. Whatever you decide on, makes your signs large and make sure the dealers know what to do.
AlanMendelson
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April 4th, 2013 at 2:10:54 AM permalink
Do I have this right?

Place bets are paid even money.
No odds on the pass line.
Payoffs at props and other games are also reduced.

What charity is this? The Mob?

Is there a three card Monty game too?

And seriously, who banks the games? How much of the profit goes to the charity and how much to the gaming company?
FleaStiff
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April 4th, 2013 at 3:19:16 AM permalink
>What charity is this? The Mob?
Actually the Mob would definitely offer a much better deal, they know to let people win from time to time.

>Is there a three card Monty game too?
I doubt it, too slow.

>How much of the profit goes to the charity and how much to the gaming company?
The charity's volunteers do all the work and all profits go to the charity. Its losses that he is concerned about and that is not necessary.
SACR
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April 4th, 2013 at 4:49:13 AM permalink
I am impressed you get any layers at all with these rules.

The schools that I know that hold casino nights have volunteer dealers, and the players purchase chips with their pass to the casino night. They have the option of buying extra chips at the event.

At the end of the night, chips are traded for tickets, usualy a rate of $5 chip per 1 ticket. All tickets are put into a hopper for a raffle.

Prizes donated by businesses, usually alumni-owned businesses, are then raffled off.

Price of prizes: $0

All money taken in for passes and chips is pure profit.

They also allow odds and regular payouts on craps, because this is supposed to be as close to a Vegas casino as possible, and it is for fun.

I can't believe these people are playing for cash and still playing this game with that kind of an edge, even if it for a good cause.
FleaStiff
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April 4th, 2013 at 5:28:23 AM permalink
Captive markets, good causes and regional variations. The word "charity" allows alot to be done, both good and bad.
Riva
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April 4th, 2013 at 7:55:57 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Captive markets, good causes and regional variations. The word "charity" allows alot to be done, both good and bad.



I've been wrestling with this stuff overnight and again, thanks to all for the ideas. We have a huge 4-day event coming up over the entire Memorial Day weekend. It's all part of a Carnival-Fair where we have a "Vegas Tent" a part of the attractions. Getting dealers for all the games except craps is easy. Craps. On the other hand is a lot of work and requires a lot of training. Over the weekend, I may have 10-15 different craps dealers, some proficient, some brand new. Most don't volunteer for craps the following event.

While I think that allowing free odds is a smart thing to do, it poses some problems.

1. The dealers will have difficulty with it.

2. If we allow free odds on the pass-line, we would have to allow them on the don't pass (even more difficulty)

3. If we allow free odds "anywhere", then we would probably have to offer standard payouts on "place" bets ( even MORE difficulty!)

The recurring theme that seems to prevail here is speed and efficiency. We've been doing this for 40 years now and, at the end of the day, we don't have any trouble filling up the craps table with players--even without free odds. In fact, people stand in line just to get in to the game (need for 2nd table). And everybody seems to have a great time, win or lose (more so when players win).

Again, all I'm trying to do increase the take without causing delays , confusion and increasing workload. When I started doing this 12 years ago, the old timers would only allow bets of .25 to $1 no odds . I finally got that up to $1 $2 (no odds) to where we are today, $2 $5 (no odds) We still allow $1 prop bets. I'm thinking that, at least for our big event next months, well simply go with $5 $10 no odds and that will have the same, if not bigger lift to the take and everybody will still have fun.

The little players will gripe because the remember the days when the minimums were .25. They may go play blackjack but I still won't have difficulty filling the table. I will definitely go to free odds at one of our Saturday Night events later on.

Here's my final question relating to this and then I have a question regarding roulette which I will post in a new thread. Currently, allow $1 prop bets (if it a horn bet, we require $4). If we raise the pass/don't pass minimums to $5, should we require the prop bets to be the same or leave it at $1. So for say, a high horn 12, the player would wager $25 versus $5. Same thing for hard-ways?

You guys probably thing at I work at this too hard at this but nobody at the school would ever go through this exercise in a zillion years. They'd simply say "we've always don it this way" and we'd still be at .25 $1.
Ayecarumba
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April 4th, 2013 at 9:24:32 AM permalink
My suggestion is that you don't allow the free odds. Keep things the same. However, open the second table with a higher minimum. Keep the first table as is. This will push folks to the higher minimum table if they don't want to wait for a spot on the lower min.

Prop bets should always be a $1 minimum to encourage action on these high HE wagers.

As the Wizard wisely advises... shear the sheep, don't slaughter them.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
tringlomane
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April 4th, 2013 at 12:13:27 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

My suggestion is that you don't allow the free odds. Keep things the same. However, open the second table with a higher minimum. Keep the first table as is. This will push folks to the higher minimum table if they don't want to wait for a spot on the lower min.

Prop bets should always be a $1 minimum to encourage action on these high HE wagers.

As the Wizard wisely advises... shear the sheep, don't slaughter them.



Excellent suggestion, imo. I know I have played $10 BJ a few times at casinos because the one $5 table was packed (it always is...lol)
Riva
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July 5th, 2013 at 10:40:20 AM permalink
I want to thank everybody for their input and share some information.

At our school's most recent event, we finally took the plunge at allowed 1 x odds. Minimums were $3 and maximums were $5. I hired professional dealers for this one-day event so, they were very proficient with payouts, etc. Plus, I started out allowing odds but was prepared to pull the plug if we got murdered early on, with the hopes of recovering with whatever time left in the evening. As it was, I left odds working all night. Bottom line....for a charitable game, it was a mixed bag as far as results.

-- For those players who took odds, they were grateful but nevertheless complained that they should be 2x or greater (sorry Charlie)

-- Only about half of the players took odds whatsoever. Most simply made pass line bets and left it at that. Part of that, I attribute, was that in order to make an odds bet and be paid correctly, they had bet the max, $5. For some, that was/is a big gulp and, for others, I just don't think that they knew the game well enough and didn't really care.

-- While we dragged a lot of bets in with taller stacks, we also paid out a lot of bets that were double what they would have been had we simply not allowed odds and lived with the grief. There were a couple of hot rolls that night where allowing odds really hurt-us to the point where the table was in the red. Fortunately, we made it back in the last few hours.

-- shaving payouts by 33% on prop bets is not enough to offset the risks of allowing even 1x odds. Many players do not play in the middle, and when they do, it is typically $1 bets.

--by allowing odds, it also means that you had to allow odds on place and come bets. By doing so, that becomes a slow bleed if the 7's don't get rolled often enough.

--those players who did take odds were always taking them down after a few rolls. This slowed the game down when "time" is our worst enemy.

Here's my conclusions:

--By allowing odds, were are/were making accommodations for less than half of the players, with no appreciable advantage to the house.

-- Allowing odds definitely requires pro dealers ($$'s). Our volunteer dealers could NEVER handle this task.

-- Even with pro dealers, allowing odds slows the game down considerably. Again, time is our worst enemy.

-- Allowing odds can definitely exposes the house to a loss. With no odds, it's darn near impossible to lose money

Going forward:

-- Forget odds. not enough benefit to offset the risks (particularly for a charitable game operating in a short time window)

- For those wanting odds on the pass line and come bets, simply allow them to press their pass line or come bet or perhaps, increase it to the table max (thoughts?). In this manner, (1) the pass line bet cannot be taken down and (2) if it wins, it will be paid at even money.

- For don't pass players, I'm thinking that they would have to lay 2x their don't pass bet (for a $5 don't pass, they would have to put out a total of $15.) Naturally, if they wanted to take all/part of this bet down at any time, we would certainly allow it. Plus, if the bet won, it too would be paid at even money. (we do not have a "don't come" spot on our layout.)

- Place bets would be unchanged. $2 / $5, paid even money and can be taken down at any time.

As always, comments welcome. Thanks
odiousgambit
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July 5th, 2013 at 1:50:46 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

by allowing odds, it also means that you had to allow odds on place and come bets. By doing so, that becomes a slow bleed if the 7's don't get rolled often enough.



you could get odds on place bets at this event?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
cowboy
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July 6th, 2013 at 8:14:31 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

you could get odds on place bets at this event?



I believe the OP meant they were paying Place bets as per the real Casino rather than even money.
Riva
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July 6th, 2013 at 11:02:56 AM permalink
Quote: cowboy

I believe the OP meant they were paying Place bets as per the real Casino rather than even money.



That is correct. 9 to 5, (4 & 10) 7 to 5 (5 & 9) , 7 to 6 (6 & 8).

Any thoughts on the press bets?
cowboy
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July 6th, 2013 at 11:13:05 AM permalink
Quote: Riva



Any thoughts on the press bets?


Sure - great for the House. Based on what you indicated was typical history for the players, you won't get many takers so I doubt variance will break you.

Watch out for those DI-guys though!
AZDuffman
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July 6th, 2013 at 1:40:10 PM permalink
Quote: Riva



Here's my conclusions:

--By allowing odds, were are/were making accommodations for less than half of the players, with no appreciable advantage to the house.



Of course, there is no edge at all, not even in the real casino!

Quote:

-- Allowing odds definitely requires pro dealers ($$'s). Our volunteer dealers could NEVER handle this task.
-- Even with pro dealers, allowing odds slows the game down considerably. Again, time is our worst enemy.
-- Allowing odds can definitely exposes the house to a loss. With no odds, it's darn near impossible to lose money



When people ask me why craps pays more than the other games at our charity nights I explain, "I learned how to deal BJ at these things in 2 hours and I have seen people get less than 15 minutes training; for craps it took me nearly a month of 4 hour nights and even then it took me another 20 hours of the real thing to get decent at it!"

This is not me exaggerating, if you are only doing it 1-2 times per year don't even fool around with volunteers. Get people who know the game, as you did. However, even with odds you should not lose more than 1-2 rolls per hour if you set up a proper bank and have 2 base dealers.

Now, as a suggestion I would say place a sign like they have in the casino. Instead of it saying "10xs Odds" have it say like this:

ALL FREE ODDS BETS

Point of 4/10: $5 pays 2:1
Point of 5/9: $4 pays 3:2
Point of 6/8: $5 pays 6:5

IMPROPER BETS WILL BE PAID AT 1:1

This does a few things. First it gives the sharps the info right there. Just say, "this is for charity so we have to balance free-odds with raising money." Any normal person will understand that. Next, it eliminates people asking "how much do I need to bet?" Thirdly, dealers can explain the sign if the bet is wrong. Of course they should do a quick-survey for incorrect bets, but this way it is thrown back on the player.


Quote:

- For those wanting odds on the pass line and come bets, simply allow them to press their pass line or come bet or perhaps, increase it to the table max (thoughts?). In this manner, (1) the pass line bet cannot be taken down and (2) if it wins, it will be paid at even money.



I don't quite get this, you can already press a pass-line or come bet. Players who know the game will *never* do what you suggest if I am reading this right.


Quote:

As always, comments welcome. Thanks



One other question, did you have the pros selling the prop bets? They should have been. Or get a volunteer who is a good barker and have them work stick. They should be pushing those bets; pushing the Field Bet to the fish. Fish love to swim in the Field. The barker should sell a prop each and every roll.

I've told this story here before but will for you here. Once I had a bunch of new players hitting the Field Bet. My bank was in danger of breaking, and we do not have provisions for a fill! However, as they said in the movie, "BUT I KNEW!" Sure enough, within 10 minutes I had almost all of their chips in my bank!

Now you may not want to send them home with all empty pockets, but if you do not push the props and have free odds, you run the risk that players turn it into a fund raiser for themselves.

Feel free to consult via PM if you are setting up another night and need advice, I have done I bet at least 100 and have ideas on what works and what does not. Same invitation to anyone else wanting to do the same, no charge for advice!
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Riva1
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January 14th, 2020 at 2:52:28 PM permalink
It has been an incredibly long time since I posted here. Some of you may remember me as a fellow that runs a big, charitable gaming event for a non-profit organization in Michigan. I could not remember my password and the email that I listed here is long gone. As a result, I created a new account; however, I'm the same person as the original Riva. Now, Riva1.

After 20 years, I am still volunteering at this organization at their charitable gaming events.

I could not find the function to start a new thread so, I just replied to this ancient thread under my new ID.

Some exciting things recently occurred in Michigan that I wanted to share and perhaps gather your input on. Thanks.

For decades, the maximum amount of chips that the house can sell at a charity gaming event has been limited to $15,000 per day. So, when the house reaches $15,000, the house cannot sell any more chips to players. We typically sell out of chips by 8:00 pm on any given night. If a player can't buy chips, they can't gamble, and they don't buy beer, and they go home. It drives me frick'n nuts. One night last year, we turned away over 300 people wanting to buy chips and gamble.

I have been lobbying in the state capital for 15 years to get the chip sale limit increased. Last month, the Governor signed a bill into law, language a bill that increases the number of chips a charity can sell per day. However, depending on how an organization conducts its gaming events, it determines how much an organization can sell in chips per day. (stay with me)

The bill signed into law now allows ANY charitable organizations to sell $20,000 in chips per day. Pretty clear, right? However, and without going into all the bloody detail, there is language in the bill that stipulates that if the organization meets certain criteria, it can sell up to (get this) $160,000 in chips per day. That's a far cry from the $15,000 per day, wouldn't you think? We qualify for the $160,000. per day limit.

Read the posts above. Tell me what you would change, if anything.

Here's are (owned) table inventory:

2, 14' craps tables

2, 20' roulette tables

1, 9' roulette table

20 blackjack tables

4, big wheel games

10, holdem tables

Cheers!
TDVegas
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January 14th, 2020 at 3:05:13 PM permalink
Excuse my ignorance....but aren't these charity type games usually run where you get donations (TV's, vacations, swag, etc.) from local companies and then run the game where the players can buy chips to gamble with and buy or bid on items with their chip winnings.

What if you sell chips and get thoroughly cracked by a hot roller....or a few during a night? And wind up losing money?
FleaStiff
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January 14th, 2020 at 4:29:28 PM permalink
Quote: Riva1

It has been an incredibly long time since I posted here. Some of you may remember me as a fellow that runs a big, charitable gaming event for a non-profit organization in Michigan. I could not remember my password and the email that I listed here is long gone. As a result, I created a new account; however, I'm the same person as the original Riva. Now, Riva1.


Send us the details, we will give our input, possibly even helpful and correct, but don't count on it.

questions:
do sales have to take place only on EVENT DAYS?

what about: you advertise, people send in their donations but you only deliver them to the players when they show up on EVENT DAY, thus you are merely transferring PRE-SOLD chips which should not prevent you from selling your daily limit to late arrivals who did not pre-order.

Can you define a "day'" as ending at 8:00pm, so that you would have two days of sales on a busy night but would have to let the event continue with only minimal staffing and games at the deserted hours?
michael99000
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January 14th, 2020 at 4:55:11 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Excuse my ignorance....but aren't these charity type games usually run where you get donations (TV's, vacations, swag, etc.) from local companies and then run the game where the players can buy chips to gamble with and buy or bid on items with their chip winnings.

What if you sell chips and get thoroughly cracked by a hot roller....or a few during a night? And wind up losing money?



Reminds me of a hilarious episode of Threes Company when Jack and Larry were playing craps at a charity event. They thought they were winning real money but they werenít.
TDVegas
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January 14th, 2020 at 7:00:04 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

Reminds me of a hilarious episode of Threes Company when Jack and Larry were playing craps at a charity event. They thought they were winning real money but they werenít.


I think Arthur from King of Queens ran a similar deal and some old lady put everything on one number....and it hit. LOL. They didnít know what to do.

Seriously, over several hours of play....a series of hot hands could cause any table to dump a lot of money. Iím not sure how you protect against that as a charity.
Riva1
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January 14th, 2020 at 7:20:56 PM permalink
In a well-run, charitable-gaming environment, the house edge is anywhere from 15% TO 40% ROI, Add to that, $10 per-person cover-charge, simply to get in, $5 beer, $3 pizza, we have a virtual ATM. The trouble has always been the State has always limited us to sell only $15,000 in chips per night.

Well now, that has changed. I won't get into all the bloody details, however, my organization, and organizations that conduct charitable gaming events similar to me, can now sell $160,000. of gambling chips per day.

Much better than $15,000 per day, wouldn't you say?
michael99000
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January 14th, 2020 at 8:10:30 PM permalink
Quote: Riva1

In a well-run, charitable-gaming environment, the house edge is anywhere from 15% TO 40% ROI, Add to that, $10 per-person cover-charge, simply to get in, $5 beer, $3 pizza, we have a virtual ATM. The trouble has always been the State has always limited us to sell only $15,000 in chips per night.

Well now, that has changed. I won't get into all the bloody details, however, my organization, and organizations that conduct charitable gaming events similar to me, can now sell $160,000. of gambling chips per day.

Much better than $15,000 per day, wouldn't you say?



So youíve never had a player get hot and win a large sum of money ?

Just curious, How do you adjust the roullete payouts to create the larger house edge ? If someone bets table max on an individual number and hits a few times Iíd think it adds up
Riva1
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January 14th, 2020 at 8:30:04 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

So youíve never had a player get hot and win a large sum of money ?

Just curious, how do you adjust the roulette payouts to create a larger house edge? If someone bets table max on an individual number and hits a few times Iíd think it adds up



On roulette, every payout is shaved by 33%. If a player hits a single number, say 16, the payout is 24 to 1, not 36 to 1.
Call it unfair, however, we've had tons of players walk away with more than they came in with. 100% OK with us. We want winners.
Riva1
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January 14th, 2020 at 8:44:27 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

So youíve never had a player get hot and win a large sum of money ?

Just curious, how do you adjust the roulette payouts to create a larger house edge? If someone bets table max on an individual number and hits a few times Iíd think it adds up



On roulette, every payout is shaved by 33%. If a player hits a single number, say 16, the payout is 24 to 1, not 36 to 1.
Call it unfair, however, we've had tons of players walk away with more than they came in with. 100% OK with us. We want winners.
michael99000
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January 14th, 2020 at 8:58:38 PM permalink
Quote: Riva1

On roulette, every payout is shaved by 33%. If a player hits a single number, say 16, the payout is 24 to 1, not 36 to 1.
Call it unfair, however, we've had tons of players walk away with more than they came in with. 100% OK with us. We want winners.



How do you handle the outside bets?

If someone bets $75 on black, do they get paid $50 if they win ?

And I donít think itís unfair at all , if the players know the payouts ahead of time. Playing under the increased house edge is part of their donation to the charity.
TDVegas
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January 14th, 2020 at 10:08:41 PM permalink
Quote: Riva1

On roulette, every payout is shaved by 33%. If a player hits a single number, say 16, the payout is 24 to 1, not 36 to 1.
Call it unfair, however, we've had tons of players walk away with more than they came in with. 100% OK with us. We want winners.


I would hope every single one of these players was there for charitable giving first and foremost and not some expectation that they were going to a typical gambling venue and getting casino odds.

It's not unfair because you are stating the odds up front....I would just hope this is a very, very casual environment and giving is the name of the game....not gambling with any sense of casino odds type set up. 35-1 typical down to 24-1. How do they shave craps payouts? Or blackjack?
michael99000
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January 14th, 2020 at 11:03:53 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

I would hope every single one of these players was there for charitable giving first and foremost and not some expectation that they were going to a typical gambling venue and getting casino odds.

It's not unfair because you are stating the odds up front....I would just hope this is a very, very casual environment and giving is the name of the game....not gambling with any sense of casino odds type set up. 35-1 typical down to 24-1. How do they shave craps payouts? Or blackjack?



I was wondering the same thing , how do you design a blackjack game with a 40% house edge.

I guess you start by removing some tens from the deck, paying 6:5 on BJ, and all pushes lose.
TDVegas
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January 14th, 2020 at 11:28:45 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

I was wondering the same thing , how do you design a blackjack game with a 40% house edge.

I guess you start by removing some tens from the deck, paying 6:5 on BJ, and all pushes lose.


I have no idea...a craps pass line wager is 1.41%. How do you crank it up? Massively short payouts? If you remove 10's from BJ....then the dealer is also not getting those 10's.

I cannot see this type of casino night having any expectation other than "I am there to donate". I thought these charitable casino nights were set up with "win chips, buy donated items with the winnings".
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