Riva
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 9:55:51 AM permalink
I help run a licensed gambling activity for a local non-profit. They have about 20 events per-year to raise money for their organization. It is real-money wagering. I have a couple of questions as it related to craps, one of our most popular games, despite the payoffs on most prop bets being reduced by about 33% (a "12" pays 20 to 1).

Question #1:

For all the years I have been volunteering there, they have never allowed a player to take odds on a pass line bet or lay odds on a don't pass. They simply pay even money when those bets win. Nobody knows why this policy is there but I suspect the volunteers (non professional) dealers simply don't know how to do the math, so they just pay even money because its easy to do.

Many players become annoyed at this and walk from the table. I am suggesting that, if we are not going to allow a player to take or lay odds, that we at least allow the player to increase the pass line be up to double the original bet once the point has been established. For example, player has a $10 pass line bet and the point is 6, the player would put another $10 on top of his/her six. If the six wins, then the player would be paid even money, $20. While it's not odds, it's still a $20 win instead of $10. The trade off for allowing the player to do this on the pass line that once the wager is increased, the money cannot be taken down until it wins or loses.

The old timers that run the game are fearful or losing twice as much as originally bet. I contend that this is the best thing that we could do because (1) the money is married to the table, (2) it's twice as much money, and (3) a seven is going to appear more than any other number on the table. On the "don't pass" I would not allow this to happen. I would pay even money on whatever the original wager is. Thoughts?

Question #2:

Again, the old timers will not allow a player to make a pass line bet after the point has been established, nor will they allow a player to take down a "don't pass" bet once the point has been established. I tell them that they're crazy because, even if the point is a 6 or 8, there are still more ways for a 7 to roll than anything else. Plus, I tell them that if a player wants to take down a don't pass bet, we should kiss the guy for doing us a favor. My advice to them was/is that we should always allow a player to jump in on a pass line bet up to the house max ($20) but not allow a player to jump in on a "don't pass" at any time, as well as letting the don't bets already on the table to get taken off at any time. They look at me like I'm from the planet Neptune. Thoughts? Thanks.
tringlomane
tringlomane
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April 3rd, 2013 at 10:40:42 AM permalink
#1. I think it's not a bad idea to forbid traditional odds bets. It increases your variance with no increase in the expected return, which is the LAST thing a charity house wants. If you allowed them, I definitely would limit them to 1X. As for your idea, you could do it, but I feel like you are making suckers out of anyone making the wager, especially for any point other than 6 or 8.

#2 of course you're right, but they just don't get it. And for anyone that doesn't clearly understand the math of craps, they are taking the safer route of assuming "taking down bets" = "always cheating".
sodawater
sodawater
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Thanks for this post from:
scrooge
April 3rd, 2013 at 12:10:21 PM permalink
traditionally, in craps, players are allowed to "press" their pass line bets any time they want, up to the table limit. No one does this, of course, because it's a ridiculously bad play.
AndyGB
AndyGB
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April 3rd, 2013 at 12:25:49 PM permalink
The odds question came up as a possible problem while we were contemplating a craps game at a similar gaming event (which never got off the ground). The concern here was just that the dealing would be more complex, could it be that your people are worried about the different payouts? Memorizing the additional amounts, calculating on the fly, all while keeping the game going? If so, we were considering allowing only 345x odds, and only exact. i.e. you can either take zero or 345, nothing in between.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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April 3rd, 2013 at 12:26:07 PM permalink
Welcome to the board Riva.

Is the charity unhappy with the amount of money they are collecting from the Craps table(s) using the current set up? If they are not, why change anything?

If their goal is to make more money, allowing players to press their passline bets, and take down Don't Pass bets is a good way to do it. Show the "Old Timers" the math. Maybe that will help.

Good help is hard to find, so if you do institute the changes you suggest, making sure the dealers understand that passline bets can only be increased, and don't pass bets can only be taken off (and not vice versa) is VERY important.

Can you share what state your charity is located in? It strikes me as unusual that craps for cash is allowed, even for a charity event. Usually, winnings have to be exchanged for goods, or entries into a drawing for prizes.

How is the cash controlled? What's to keep unscrupulous dealers from overpaying their player/partner in order to split profits later?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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April 3rd, 2013 at 12:53:37 PM permalink
Charity games often require speed and simplicity. Rich donors milling about want to play, not listen to complicated lectures. Also hard working volunteers don't really want to become great craps dealers, just competent ones.

Players usually like realism. Even faux realism such as dealers clearing their hands and requiring money to be put on the table and not handed to them.

So I would say avoid capping bets.
Take odds.

If the volunteers need a lecture and some practice.... give it to them.

Realism is what makes the night enjoyable and brings in the money!!

Have you considered a rule of 'No Don't Bets Allowed if the shooter is pregnant"? That can make for a fun evening.
Riva
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 1:05:48 PM permalink
Thanks for the greetings. No, we're not unhappy with the take but we always try to make more. And, you are right; finding good help is hard to find. As a school, most of our volunteers disappear once their child graduates. Still, some people like me hang around for years after.

We are in Michigan and real-money games are 100% legal, however; must be licensed by the state and come with many controls and regulations. Plus, the house can set the game rule any way it wants. For example, in black jack, the house takes all ties (ouch), and in roulette, if you hit one number, we pay $25 to 1, not 36 to 1. And, like I said, in craps, all the prop bets pay out about 33% less than what a normal casino would pay out. Players don't complain (much) as they know the money is for a school. Plus, it is the only place they can go in the State and bet as little as $2 per-bet on certain games versus the $25 per-bet at the local casinos. One other thing..a person can only win up to $500 at an event with no limit how much the house can win. Players that win more know how to get around this though.

Cash is 100% controlled by the house. Players buy chips from the cashier's table. NOBODY touches cash except the house. Plus, we have our own custom chips. We train the dealers pretty well but, sometime mistakes are made. We try to keep that to a minimum.

As for dealers cheating with a shill? First, we watch every table VERY closely. Plus, most of the dealers are volunteers, however that situation could still happen. So, we arbitrarily rotate dealers every 1/2 hour or so and watch to see if players follow the dealer. Plus, we limit the amount any dealer has in their tray to $100 any any time. If the dealer busts out, the dealer is either cheating, unlucky or simply not a good dealer. And, there are ways to handle each scenario.

As to my question regarding craps, I tend to agree that the reason we never allowed free odds is that it was probably just too hard for the dealers to execute and it delayed the game. That's why I want to allow the player to simply press their pass line bet and for players to be able jump in after the point (just the opposite for "don't pass) . Agree, it probably a dumb thing to do because if they press the pass line bet, the money stays on the table whereas, the player could take the same amount and "place" the same number and take the bet down any time they want. Oh well.
tringlomane
tringlomane
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April 3rd, 2013 at 1:12:23 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

Agree, it probably a dumb thing to do because if they press the pass line bet, the money stays on the table whereas, the player could take the same amount and "place" the same number and take the bet down any time they want. Oh well.



What odds are you giving on place bets? Or is that even money as well?
Riva
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 1:31:37 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Charity games often require speed and simplicity. Rich donors milling about want to play, not listen to complicated lectures. Also hard working volunteers don't really want to become great craps dealers, just competent ones.

Players usually like realism. Even faux realism such as dealers clearing their hands and requiring money to be put on the table and not handed to them.

So I would say avoid capping bets.
Take odds.

If the volunteers need a lecture and some practice.... give it to them.

Realism is what makes the night enjoyable and brings in the money!!

Have you considered a rule of 'No Don't Bets Allowed if the shooter is pregnant"? That can make for a fun evening.



WOW..some really good thoughts here. Glad I found this site.

Most of our players are not affiliated with our organization other than they come here to gamble. Basically, they are strangers that know that we have events on certain dates. And, it is far from a high-end "millionaires party", Basically, our players come from anywhere and they are happy that they can make $2 bets, drink some (lots) of beer and have a fun night. Sure, they want to win and we know that a few will. But we are in it for the $$ at the same time.

Agree. "realism" is what makes the night enjoyable and brings in the money. We own all our own tables with custom layouts, etc. It is real professional looking. We don't rent any equipment which pays HUGE dividends over the long term. My job is simply to squeeze a much juice out of the lemon as possible. If that takes more training, so be it.
Riva
Riva
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April 3rd, 2013 at 1:34:10 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

What odds are you giving on place bets? Or is that even money as well?



Even money on place bets. Game moves pretty fast.

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