Calling Craps Historians
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Quote: EvenBobYou have to credit the inventors of craps. They produced
an ironclad layout...
Bob mentioned this in passing in Ahigh's thread, and I wondered about the history of the craps layout. I've only been playing for about five or six years, and in no more than 7 different casinos.
When did the layout take its current form? Other than the Big 6 / 8 and the fire bet, are there any regional variations, or has the corporate casino completely homogenized the game?
New Orleans: Field can be The Bayou.
New Jersey: No Big Six or Big 8 by law.
Terribles: Don't Come Box has been shaved of its text to deter use.
The game in a casino is Bank Craps... so the layout is markedly different from the floating craps games and back alley craps games of long ago and old time movies. Corporate manufacturers probably do control the market but they are happy to provide "extras" to casinos: Logo, an additional Field hit, Text of No Call Bets, ... these probably vary a great deal geographically. Some places now are pushing a marked layout for the BoxMan's Hop Bets rather than just the blank felt in front of the Box Man as is often the place for a Hop Bet.
Quote: FleaStiffNew Jersey: No Big Six or Big 8 by law.
Fleastiff is correct and if you watched "Person of Interest" on CBS tonight, in minute 33 you will see them playing craps in Atlantic City on a layout that includes a Big 6 and Big 8 ... a Hollywood technical flaw that I can almost guarantee no one in the universe saw except me ... but that is what i do
... it's a gift and a curse {wink}
I like this layout. Tracking you bets is easier when you have multiple Dont's, and security is probably improved, as you can't grab your losing DP bet when the point is rolled. (I have seen people try to do this, usually on Pass bets.)
The only variations I found were sold on icollector site a few years ago:
Is that a tub layout? I've never played on one.
The site says the bottom one was by "Arthur Popper, NY, c1930s"
Quote:Crapless Craps
from The Wizard of Odds
This following information graciously provided by the Wizard of Odds, the most recognized authority on casino gaming and table odds on the Net. The Wizard is a member of the Casino.com Hall of Fame, an adjunct professor of gaming math at The University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and makes his living consulting for land and Internet casinos and casino game developers.
Crapless Craps
by the Wizard of Odds
In my ten commandments of gambling I advise that you avoid gimmicks and this is an illustrated example. The Stratosphere Casino in Vegas and some casinos in Mississippi proudly boast of "crapless craps," a craps variant in which the player can not lose a pass bet on the come out roll. If any number other than a 7 is rolled on the come out roll it becomes the point. What you are giving up is the sure winner of 11 on the come out roll. To the mathematically challenged it may seem a good deal, that you are only giving up 1 sure winner for 3 sure losers. The catch is that the probability of hitting a point of 2 or 12 is only 1/7, and the probability of hitting a point of 3 or 11 is only 1/4. So the player is not gaining much on the 2, 3, and 12 since they will likely lose anyway, but is giving up a sure winner on 11 for only a 1/4 chance of winning. Overall the house edge on the pass bet in crapless craps is 373/6930 =~ 5.382%, compared to 1.41% in a real craps game.
Crapless craps does offer free odds of 6:1 on the 2 and 12, and 3:1 on the 3 and 11. The following table shows the combined house edge by combining the pass line and the odds:
Combined house edge on
pass and buying odds
in crapless craps
1X odds 2.936%
2X odds 2.018%
3X odds 1.538%
5X odds 1.042%
You can also make place bets on the 2, 3, 11, and 12. The 2 and 12 pay 11:2 with a house edge of 7.143%. The 3 and 11 pay 11:4 with a house edge of 6.250%. There is no don't pass bet in this game.
http://www.nextshooter.com/crapless
Quote: CalderOther than the Big 6 / 8 and the fire bet, are there any regional variations, or has the corporate casino completely homogenized the game?
Early "speak easy" craps tables often featured a 5 instead of the 9 at center of the Field. Anyone familiar with the Table of Thirty-Six Ways will see that this changes the odds not in the least, but maybe the change to 9 had the psychological effect of making the coverage appear "greater"?
This layout makes the Hi-Lo "Double Pays" on the Field unnecessary.
The first "Bar 3" table I've ever seen. I thought these were only legendary.
Assuming 2 and 12 don't count for the Doubles bet, the house edge E is 11.11% (apparently the usage of "for" in these layouts is faulty and should be replaced by "to".
(1) Pay 2:1 to the Pass/Come for Points/Up-Numbers of 2, 3, 11, or 12. (E = -1.81%)
(2) Pay 6:5 for a come-out/first-roll 7. (E = -2.05%)
Quote: 7outlineawayMost of Northern Nevada has a slightly different layout from everywhere else. There aren't separate areas for DP and DC. Instead, DP/DC is a narrow strip between Field and Come (not between Pass and Field) and doesn't wrap around. Also, on the come-out, the dealer moves your DP behind the number as if it were a DC.
I like this layout... security is probably improved, as you can't grab your losing DP bet when the point is rolled. (I have seen people try to do this, usually on Pass bets.)
DP's/DC's are not contracts like Pass/Come. Once a Point/Box is set, the sub-contract DP/DC bet may legally be reduced or removed and may not legally be increased, policy which is precisely opposite that for contract Pass/Come bets. I don't see why the table would try to prevent taking them down, but I do see them making efforts to prevent DP/DC post-entry increases, since paying even money on short-odds is not in the best interest of their holds.
Quote: CalderOther than the Big 6 / 8 and the fire bet, are there any regional variations [of the craps layout], or has the corporate casino completely homogenized the game?
Dr. Stuart N. Ethier, a professor of mathematics at the University of Utah, developed his own patented version in response to two problems discovered in Bob Stupak's Crapless Craps, namely (1) a very high 5.38% house edge on the Pass/Come bets and (2) the palpable lack of corresponding "Don'ts", while still offering a guaranteed "crap-proofed" come-out. He patented his solution as No-Crap Craps. It solves both problems by combining two adjacent horn numbers (2 with 3 and 11 with 12) into a single point/box "number" for all multi-roll bets either against the 7 (such as Pass/Come, Place, and Buy), or for the 7 (such as Don'ts and Lays). Rolling either component number counts for the collective point/box. So, for example, coming out with a 2 sets the 2-Or-3 point, and then rolling a 3 before a 7 wins the Pass Line bet. Likewise, rolling either 11 or 12 coming out sets the 11-Or-12 point; then rolling either before 7 wins. Clearly, the probability and hence payout and Odds figures for these new "horn" points will be identical to those for the 4 and the 10 (one could even introduce "Hardways" on 2-Or-3 and 11-Or-12, each of which would win whenever the respective 2 or 12 rolled before the respective 3 or 11 and before 7). The effect of the fusion is a Pass Line/Come bet with the classic (-28)/1980 = 1.414% house edge. The Don't-Pass/Don't-Come generates its advantage, in Dr. Ethier's original formulation, by only paying half for any seven-out on the 11-Or-12 horn point/box, to the familiar (-27)/1980 = -1.364% tune. (The same exact figure can be achieved as easily, by simply declaring the new Don't bet a push as soon as the 11-Or-12 point is established, without introducing nuisance half-pays.) No tables laid out to this version are known to exist, since the provisional patent, I'm told, has been abandoned.
Quote: NowTheSerpent
Dr. Stuart N. Ethier, a professor of mathematics at the University of Utah, developed his own patented version in response to two problems discovered in Bob Stupak's Crapless Craps, namely (1) a very high 5.38% house edge on the Pass/Come bets and (2) the palpable lack of corresponding "Don'ts", while still offering a guaranteed "crap-proofed" come-out. He patented his solution as No-Crap Craps....
No tables laid out to this version are known to exist, since the provisional patent, I'm told, has been abandoned.
His patent is # 7,134,660 and was originally filed on August 30, 2004. The date of the patent is November 14, 2006.
The abstract from the patent:
Crapless Craps, a game that has existed for more than 20 years, is a modification of standard craps designed to eliminate the possibility of the pass line bettor losing on the come-out roll. However, it has several serious drawbacks that have prevented it from achieving significant popularity with the gambling public. No-Crap Craps is a modification of Crapless Craps created to overcome these shortcomings. This aim is achieved by regarding every number except 7 as a point number, but with numbers 2 and 3 grouped together as 2-or-3, and numbers 11 and 12 grouped together as 11-or-12. When betting against the shooter, a seven-out after point 11-or-12 pays half. The result is that the house advantages of the pass line bet and the don't pass bet are exactly those of standard craps.
The claims from the patent:
1. A method of playing a craps-like dice game comprising:
- (a) a bettor making a pass line bet;
(b) a shooter rolling a pair of dice repeatedly;
(c) declaring that 7 on the initial, or come-out, roll results in a win for said bettor;
(d) declaring that any other number on said come-out roll establishes a point of said shooter, with the provision that numbers 2 and 3 are grouped together as 2-or-3, and numbers 11 and 12 are grouped together as 11-or-12;
(e) declaring that, following the establishment of said point, repeating said point before 7 is rolled results in a win for said bettor, whereas rolling 7 before said point is repeated results in a loss for said bettor;
(f) declaring that said pass line bet pays even money;
whereby said pass line bet cannot be lost on said come-out roll and offers the same advantage to the house as does the pass line bet in standard craps.
2. A method of playing a craps-like dice game comprising:
- (a) a bettor making a don't pass bet;
(b) a shooter rolling a pair of dice repeatedly;
(c) declaring that 7 on the initial, or come-out, roll results in a loss for said bettor;
(d) declaring that any other number on said come-out roll establishes a point of said shooter, with the provision that numbers 2 and 3 are grouped together as 2-or-3, and numbers 11 and 12 are grouped together as 11-or-12;
(e) declaring that, following the establishment of said point, rolling 7 before said point is repeated results in a win for said bettor, whereas repeating said point before 7 is roiled results in a loss for said bettor;
(f) declaring tat said don't pass bet pays even money, with one exception, namely, if said don't pass bet is won following the establishment of point 11-or-12, it pays 1 to 2;
whereby said don't pass bet allows said bettor to bet against said shooter and offers the same advantage to the house as does the don't pass bet in standard craps.
I was surfing the net and found some info regarding this layout, and remembered it was discussed here.
Quote: Museum of Gaming HistoryBeautiful reproduction of a 1 man "Philadelphia Style" craps layout from the 1930s. Note all the text are on applied oil cloth with just the lines painted onto the background cloth.
http://museumofgaminghistory.com/mogh.php?p=gallery&d=Gallery/Antique%20Equipment/Craps/&i=30
I could use my new same bet chart on the Hard 6 or Hard 8, but can you imagine going hours without hitting, over and over again?
