Thread Rating:

Calder
Calder
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 534
Joined: Mar 26, 2010
March 14th, 2013 at 11:04:46 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You have to credit the inventors of craps. They produced
an ironclad layout...



Bob mentioned this in passing in Ahigh's thread, and I wondered about the history of the craps layout. I've only been playing for about five or six years, and in no more than 7 different casinos.

When did the layout take its current form? Other than the Big 6 / 8 and the fire bet, are there any regional variations, or has the corporate casino completely homogenized the game?
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
March 14th, 2013 at 11:23:43 AM permalink
Reno: Its Bar the 2 on the Don'ts.

New Orleans: Field can be The Bayou.

New Jersey: No Big Six or Big 8 by law.

Terribles: Don't Come Box has been shaved of its text to deter use.

The game in a casino is Bank Craps... so the layout is markedly different from the floating craps games and back alley craps games of long ago and old time movies. Corporate manufacturers probably do control the market but they are happy to provide "extras" to casinos: Logo, an additional Field hit, Text of No Call Bets, ... these probably vary a great deal geographically. Some places now are pushing a marked layout for the BoxMan's Hop Bets rather than just the blank felt in front of the Box Man as is often the place for a Hop Bet.
Harley
Harley
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 119
Joined: May 13, 2012
March 14th, 2013 at 10:23:57 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

New Jersey: No Big Six or Big 8 by law.



Fleastiff is correct and if you watched "Person of Interest" on CBS tonight, in minute 33 you will see them playing craps in Atlantic City on a layout that includes a Big 6 and Big 8 ... a Hollywood technical flaw that I can almost guarantee no one in the universe saw except me ... but that is what i do

... it's a gift and a curse {wink}
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
7outlineaway
7outlineaway
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 282
Joined: Nov 13, 2009
March 15th, 2013 at 9:24:42 PM permalink
Most of Northern Nevada has a slightly different layout from everywhere else. There aren't separate areas for DP and DC. Instead, DP/DC is a narrow strip between Field and Come (not between Pass and Field) and doesn't wrap around. Also, on the come-out, the dealer moves your DP behind the number as if it were a DC.

I like this layout. Tracking you bets is easier when you have multiple Dont's, and security is probably improved, as you can't grab your losing DP bet when the point is rolled. (I have seen people try to do this, usually on Pass bets.)
Calder
Calder
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 534
Joined: Mar 26, 2010
March 15th, 2013 at 9:53:36 PM permalink
I didn't see any of those in a quick look through some Google images. Otherwise, things seem pretty standardized.

The only variations I found were sold on icollector site a few years ago:



Is that a tub layout? I've never played on one.



The site says the bottom one was by "Arthur Popper, NY, c1930s"
7outlineaway
7outlineaway
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 282
Joined: Nov 13, 2009
March 15th, 2013 at 10:21:43 PM permalink
Here's the Reno/Tahoe layout.

Harley
Harley
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 119
Joined: May 13, 2012
March 16th, 2013 at 10:19:02 AM permalink
Crapless Craps .....



Quote:

Crapless Craps
from The Wizard of Odds

This following information graciously provided by the Wizard of Odds, the most recognized authority on casino gaming and table odds on the Net. The Wizard is a member of the Casino.com Hall of Fame, an adjunct professor of gaming math at The University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and makes his living consulting for land and Internet casinos and casino game developers.

Crapless Craps
by the Wizard of Odds

In my ten commandments of gambling I advise that you avoid gimmicks and this is an illustrated example. The Stratosphere Casino in Vegas and some casinos in Mississippi proudly boast of "crapless craps," a craps variant in which the player can not lose a pass bet on the come out roll. If any number other than a 7 is rolled on the come out roll it becomes the point. What you are giving up is the sure winner of 11 on the come out roll. To the mathematically challenged it may seem a good deal, that you are only giving up 1 sure winner for 3 sure losers. The catch is that the probability of hitting a point of 2 or 12 is only 1/7, and the probability of hitting a point of 3 or 11 is only 1/4. So the player is not gaining much on the 2, 3, and 12 since they will likely lose anyway, but is giving up a sure winner on 11 for only a 1/4 chance of winning. Overall the house edge on the pass bet in crapless craps is 373/6930 =~ 5.382%, compared to 1.41% in a real craps game.

Crapless craps does offer free odds of 6:1 on the 2 and 12, and 3:1 on the 3 and 11. The following table shows the combined house edge by combining the pass line and the odds:

Combined house edge on
pass and buying odds
in crapless craps

1X odds 2.936%
2X odds 2.018%
3X odds 1.538%
5X odds 1.042%

You can also make place bets on the 2, 3, 11, and 12. The 2 and 12 pay 11:2 with a house edge of 7.143%. The 3 and 11 pay 11:4 with a house edge of 6.250%. There is no don't pass bet in this game.


http://www.nextshooter.com/crapless
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
March 16th, 2013 at 1:13:44 PM permalink
The game was codified to its modern format by a man named John H. Winn just before the first world war. more information is in John Scarne's book The Complete Guide to Gambling, and at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dice-play/CrapsHazardHistory.htm
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
August 17th, 2014 at 1:26:31 AM permalink
Quote: Calder

Other than the Big 6 / 8 and the fire bet, are there any regional variations, or has the corporate casino completely homogenized the game?



Early "speak easy" craps tables often featured a 5 instead of the 9 at center of the Field. Anyone familiar with the Table of Thirty-Six Ways will see that this changes the odds not in the least, but maybe the change to 9 had the psychological effect of making the coverage appear "greater"?
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
August 17th, 2014 at 1:43:08 AM permalink


This layout makes the Hi-Lo "Double Pays" on the Field unnecessary.



The first "Bar 3" table I've ever seen. I thought these were only legendary.

Assuming 2 and 12 don't count for the Doubles bet, the house edge E is 11.11% (apparently the usage of "for" in these layouts is faulty and should be replaced by "to".
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
August 17th, 2014 at 1:53:22 AM permalink
One could lower the house edge on the Stupak Pass/Come to a friendlier (albeit still profitably higher than standard) figure in either of two simple ways:

(1) Pay 2:1 to the Pass/Come for Points/Up-Numbers of 2, 3, 11, or 12. (E = -1.81%)
(2) Pay 6:5 for a come-out/first-roll 7. (E = -2.05%)
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
August 17th, 2014 at 2:20:45 AM permalink
Quote: 7outlineaway

Most of Northern Nevada has a slightly different layout from everywhere else. There aren't separate areas for DP and DC. Instead, DP/DC is a narrow strip between Field and Come (not between Pass and Field) and doesn't wrap around. Also, on the come-out, the dealer moves your DP behind the number as if it were a DC.

I like this layout... security is probably improved, as you can't grab your losing DP bet when the point is rolled. (I have seen people try to do this, usually on Pass bets.)



DP's/DC's are not contracts like Pass/Come. Once a Point/Box is set, the sub-contract DP/DC bet may legally be reduced or removed and may not legally be increased, policy which is precisely opposite that for contract Pass/Come bets. I don't see why the table would try to prevent taking them down, but I do see them making efforts to prevent DP/DC post-entry increases, since paying even money on short-odds is not in the best interest of their holds.
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
August 17th, 2014 at 5:31:30 AM permalink
Quote: Calder

Other than the Big 6 / 8 and the fire bet, are there any regional variations [of the craps layout], or has the corporate casino completely homogenized the game?



Dr. Stuart N. Ethier, a professor of mathematics at the University of Utah, developed his own patented version in response to two problems discovered in Bob Stupak's Crapless Craps, namely (1) a very high 5.38% house edge on the Pass/Come bets and (2) the palpable lack of corresponding "Don'ts", while still offering a guaranteed "crap-proofed" come-out. He patented his solution as No-Crap Craps. It solves both problems by combining two adjacent horn numbers (2 with 3 and 11 with 12) into a single point/box "number" for all multi-roll bets either against the 7 (such as Pass/Come, Place, and Buy), or for the 7 (such as Don'ts and Lays). Rolling either component number counts for the collective point/box. So, for example, coming out with a 2 sets the 2-Or-3 point, and then rolling a 3 before a 7 wins the Pass Line bet. Likewise, rolling either 11 or 12 coming out sets the 11-Or-12 point; then rolling either before 7 wins. Clearly, the probability and hence payout and Odds figures for these new "horn" points will be identical to those for the 4 and the 10 (one could even introduce "Hardways" on 2-Or-3 and 11-Or-12, each of which would win whenever the respective 2 or 12 rolled before the respective 3 or 11 and before 7). The effect of the fusion is a Pass Line/Come bet with the classic (-28)/1980 = 1.414% house edge. The Don't-Pass/Don't-Come generates its advantage, in Dr. Ethier's original formulation, by only paying half for any seven-out on the 11-Or-12 horn point/box, to the familiar (-27)/1980 = -1.364% tune. (The same exact figure can be achieved as easily, by simply declaring the new Don't bet a push as soon as the 11-Or-12 point is established, without introducing nuisance half-pays.) No tables laid out to this version are known to exist, since the provisional patent, I'm told, has been abandoned.
NewToCraps
NewToCraps
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 210
Joined: Jun 16, 2013
August 17th, 2014 at 6:36:14 AM permalink
Quote: NowTheSerpent


Dr. Stuart N. Ethier, a professor of mathematics at the University of Utah, developed his own patented version in response to two problems discovered in Bob Stupak's Crapless Craps, namely (1) a very high 5.38% house edge on the Pass/Come bets and (2) the palpable lack of corresponding "Don'ts", while still offering a guaranteed "crap-proofed" come-out. He patented his solution as No-Crap Craps....
No tables laid out to this version are known to exist, since the provisional patent, I'm told, has been abandoned.



His patent is # 7,134,660 and was originally filed on August 30, 2004. The date of the patent is November 14, 2006.

The abstract from the patent:


Crapless Craps, a game that has existed for more than 20 years, is a modification of standard craps designed to eliminate the possibility of the pass line bettor losing on the come-out roll. However, it has several serious drawbacks that have prevented it from achieving significant popularity with the gambling public. No-Crap Craps is a modification of Crapless Craps created to overcome these shortcomings. This aim is achieved by regarding every number except 7 as a point number, but with numbers 2 and 3 grouped together as 2-or-3, and numbers 11 and 12 grouped together as 11-or-12. When betting against the shooter, a seven-out after point 11-or-12 pays half. The result is that the house advantages of the pass line bet and the don't pass bet are exactly those of standard craps.

The claims from the patent:

1. A method of playing a craps-like dice game comprising:
    (a) a bettor making a pass line bet;
    (b) a shooter rolling a pair of dice repeatedly;
    (c) declaring that 7 on the initial, or come-out, roll results in a win for said bettor;
    (d) declaring that any other number on said come-out roll establishes a point of said shooter, with the provision that numbers 2 and 3 are grouped together as 2-or-3, and numbers 11 and 12 are grouped together as 11-or-12;
    (e) declaring that, following the establishment of said point, repeating said point before 7 is rolled results in a win for said bettor, whereas rolling 7 before said point is repeated results in a loss for said bettor;
    (f) declaring that said pass line bet pays even money;
    whereby said pass line bet cannot be lost on said come-out roll and offers the same advantage to the house as does the pass line bet in standard craps.

2. A method of playing a craps-like dice game comprising:
    (a) a bettor making a don't pass bet;
    (b) a shooter rolling a pair of dice repeatedly;
    (c) declaring that 7 on the initial, or come-out, roll results in a loss for said bettor;
    (d) declaring that any other number on said come-out roll establishes a point of said shooter, with the provision that numbers 2 and 3 are grouped together as 2-or-3, and numbers 11 and 12 are grouped together as 11-or-12;
    (e) declaring that, following the establishment of said point, rolling 7 before said point is repeated results in a win for said bettor, whereas repeating said point before 7 is roiled results in a loss for said bettor;
    (f) declaring tat said don't pass bet pays even money, with one exception, namely, if said don't pass bet is won following the establishment of point 11-or-12, it pays 1 to 2;
    whereby said don't pass bet allows said bettor to bet against said shooter and offers the same advantage to the house as does the don't pass bet in standard craps.
Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed and have a PATENT on Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations hope to have patents in 2018 - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D.. Dice D......
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
Thanked by
pwcrabb
April 20th, 2020 at 7:28:26 AM permalink
Sorry for dredging up an old thread, but...

I was surfing the net and found some info regarding this layout, and remembered it was discussed here.

Quote: Museum of Gaming History

Beautiful reproduction of a 1 man "Philadelphia Style" craps layout from the 1930s. Note all the text are on applied oil cloth with just the lines painted onto the background cloth.


http://museumofgaminghistory.com/mogh.php?p=gallery&d=Gallery/Antique%20Equipment/Craps/&i=30
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
CasinoResearch
CasinoResearch
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 27
Joined: Mar 29, 2020
April 20th, 2020 at 11:00:51 AM permalink
Very cool! Thanks for posting this.
Calder
Calder
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 534
Joined: Mar 26, 2010
April 20th, 2020 at 12:48:50 PM permalink
No Field 4!
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
  • Threads: 118
  • Posts: 4933
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
April 20th, 2020 at 1:56:25 PM permalink
I was playing Baccarat on the computer last night and betting only Tie. This after getting 5 Ties in a row and 2 in the next 5 hands without giving Ties a thought. Well, once I started betting on Ties they became so damn scarce. 30 hands with no Tie, 40 hands with no Tie, 60 hands with no Tie, etc. It's like Tie was on quarantine or something!
I could use my new same bet chart on the Hard 6 or Hard 8, but can you imagine going hours without hitting, over and over again?
  • Jump to: