But the more energy that is put into throwing the dice, the more random the throw.

This is obvious in as much as a die being dropped 1/8th of an inch onto the felt is absolutely not random.

And a (fair) dice that bounces one hundred times is very likely to be 99% random or higher in my opinion (I just made this number up, but let's just use it).

As a generalization, the more energy imparted into the die, the more random the result, up until the point that the die is 100% perfectly random, assuming such is possible. If you also make that assumption, there is an energy required to get perfectly random results on any given table and/or set of playing conditions, under which something less random is possible.

Quote:Harley... I have seen TWO 6 point Fire Bets won on the Strip in Las Vegas for several $Ten-thousands by using a hard throw of the dice on tables known to use biased dice from time to time (namely Caesars and Paris)

It only makes no difference in theory-land on the internet where fair dice is assumed ... in reality of Las Vegas, when unbalanced dice are used, sometimes the only long rolls are the result of hard throws that counter Mother Nature and the effects of gravity that can take over and control a soft "controlled' toss ..... throw it hard and you will not fall victim to the imbalance so often

LOL Now Ceasars and Paris use biased dice? And you acuse the internet of being "theory-land"? A hard roll will counter mother nature and biased dice? You are sounding more and more like the dice in your head are off balance every day. C'mon Harley... you have absolutely no proof of any of this and yet you continue to slander Casinos and thier fairness. Don't be surprised if you receive some contact from an Attorney from one of these location. You're treading on thin ice.

ZCore13

So to restate, I disagree with Harley that a more random throw can overcome any dice's bias.

As far as Harley treading on thin ice, I disagree. Gaming regulation is there for a reason, and it's not to allow the casinos to do whatever they feel like in order to make more money.

Until a casino, ANY CASINO, provides more information regarding the dice that they are putting into play and when, this is an open issue.

As it is, the best a player can do to hope to get good fair dice is fondle the dice and look for all the corners to be razor sharp, re-position the dice to non-hardway sets and feel for any ridges that might result from varying lengths among various axes of the dice, and just hope for the best. I don't even think the casino would let you spin a die in between your thumb and index finger like the box often do since you can only use one hand with the dice.

If there were 100% transparency with fairness as a goal, each die would have a unique serial number (and possibly even color) and each die would be tracked for outcomes independently with real-time chi-squared analysis for each die from the first roll to ensure even distribution of outcomes and the results displayed in real-time.

Half of the game is guessing which die is more favorable than the other when you pick them out, because they are in fact ALL DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER. It's the absolute truth!

None of this matters in the short term, but in the long term, and on the grind, it all matters a lot! And the grind and the long term is all the casino cares about.

ZCore13

When you realize that 100 rolls per hour and everybody wants you to publish 700 rolls, that's like a whole day's worth of work!

I don't fault him for wanting to keep his data to himself.

Quote:Zcore13LOL Now Ceasars and Paris use biased dice? And you acuse the internet of being "theory-land"? A hard roll will counter mother nature and biased dice? You are sounding more and more like the dice in your head are off balance every day. C'mon Harley... you have absolutely no proof of any of this and yet you continue to slander Casinos and thier fairness. Don't be surprised if you receive some contact from an Attorney from one of these location. You're treading on thin ice.

ZCore13

ZCore13 - we have actual proof ... actual casino dice from live play that are unbalanced from Caesar's, we have shown them to the NGC and the Texas Attorney General's office .... we have the charting to prove what Paris uses --- both fair dice and unbalanced dice based on color and serial numbers (and no, I am not going to post it here ... you can go chart it yourself or get some live casino dice yourself if you don't believe me)

If you want to see the proof, look at the Koganinja's video proof of Caesar's unbalanced dice -- he has some Caesar's unbalanced dice on his videos ... see Links here and elsewhere on his YouTube channel:

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/search/label/Koganinja

We dare Nevada to take us to court, but they will not because they do not want the publicity from the mountains of evidence that would expose their fraud .... it's more likely we will be 86ed in the desert than in court

I do not wholeheartedly agree with Pearson's chi-square for 1 die because you have to exponentially compound the effects for 2 dice since Craps is based on outcome of 2 dice, however here are the results for Caesar's die Serial # 2124

Quote:Pearson's chi-square"Pearson's chi-square" hypothesis testing procedure.

Testing a d6: Roll it 30 times.

Keep a tally of how many times each face comes up, from 1 to 6.

(Note that we expect the number of appearances from each face

to be about 5; 30/6 = 5). At the end, go through the counts and subtract 5

from each, square them all, and then add them all up.

For a fair die, the total at the end should be no more than 55.

Chicken Feed Random Roll from Straight out on 12 foot table:

Face ... Total ... Less 5 ... Squared

.. 1 ........ 9 ........ 4 ........... 16

.. 2 ........ 2 ........ -3 ........... 9

.. 3 ........ 3 ........ -2 ........... 4

.. 4 ........ 4 ........ -1 ........... 1

.. 5 ........ 10 ....... 5 ........... 25

.. 6 ........ 2 ........ -3 ........... 9

Totals .... 30 ........ ........... 64

If you want a list of other casinos we have proof of unbalanced dice, see this link for List:

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/cheating-casinos.html

Bring it on Corporate lawyers and or Nevada Gaming Commission (who is shunning their fiduciary duty) !!

I see that you're big on conspiracy, but falling quite short when it comes to any kind of proof.

Most of your claims are pretty far out there. But regarding Caesars Palace - nothing they do would ever surprise me after having read of the curious case of Terrance Watanabe, gaming investigations during 2010, and what casinos hosts have said.

Quote:AhighI think others should collect and post data. It's easy to do. It's just work.

When you realize that 100 rolls per hour and everybody wants you to publish 700 rolls, that's like a whole day's worth of work!

I don't fault him for wanting to keep his data to himself.

Thank you AHigh ... well said !! ..... I make money from my data ... if you were to find gold in the desert, you would be a fool to publish the coordinates of where you found it ... better if you don't believe my so called "conspiracy theories" and just blindly go into the casino and play craps

Keyser aka Snowman .... I talked to you at length a few years ago and offered to meet with you ... I agree with your older "chipped or worn" dice theory .... I was intrigued by your dice Lab and work with dice and their logos and I think there is definitely some merit to your work. However, our Dice Research Team concluded that your drop test does not duplicate the centrifugal force and gravity effects of a 12 or 14 foot table