Have you ever been at a casino where the dice were pulled after the table dumped?

Have you ever been at a casino where the dice were pulled after the table dumped a lot of chips?

I am asking this question because of another thread where it was said this happens. I have never seen this happen in about 20 years of craps play at half a dozen or more casinos. If the dice were changed, it's because all the dice were changed according to a shift schedule. Sometimes I don't see the dice changed at all.

Is it true that when the casino loses a lot of money to a hot roll ... or two hot rolls... or three.... that there is a conscious decision to change out the dice? Have you actually seen this happen?

If you have seen it happen, care to tell us which casino?

The most I've ever seen is the Boxman inspecting the dice and some conversation between the Box and the Stickman as to the serial number on the die that was in the Stick's hand... then the dice all went into that plastic soapdish-like thing that holds the dice. It was apparent that the Boxman had satisfied himself as to the current state of the dice and as to their serial numbers, that is all that mattered.

Dice that go overboard and travel back get examined, not merely glanced at, but at no time have I observed any casino doing anything with the dice that was unscheduled, such as retiring all five dice mid-shift or something. I've seen a few dice be held out of the game as chipped by an encounter with a slot machine, but play simply continued with four dice being offered to the shooter.

I figure if the Boxman is satisfied that some errant die has been returned to the table in a fit state for use, I won't quibble about it. He has the time and the knowledge to examine it closely and if he returns it to play, so be it. If you watch a dice game being opened you will often see close examination of each of the five dice and some chatter about their serial numbers. It is not something that the crew ignores but it is usually no big deal after that.

I made the claim and it absolutely happens at the Silverton where they have 10x odds. I would not be surprised that this happens less frequently at places with equal or less exposure than 345x odds.

If you want to verify what I said as true, you can go to and ask the pit crew at the Silverton about this.

The dice can be changed for any reason, actually. Most crews have schedules when they change the dice, but at the Silverton, they actually even joke about it when someone is winning but not enough to be significant .. Patrick loves to yell out "CHANGE THE DICE!" (the older Patrick, not the dark haired younger Patrick) who worked at Sunset Station for a number of years. Wayne was also at Sunset Station with Patrick back in those days, and those two are OG's that have been doing this game on these same style tables for a long time now.

I've asked Patrick specifically about this, and it's his wisdom that the dice will be changed any time there is any question at all if the dice are causing the casino to lose money.

In general, though, when they change the dice, it is attempted to be done in a very discreet way. The only time they are very open about bringing in new dice is at a table that is being opened after a lock-up. IE: they can and will do it in a way that you might not notice(!!!)

Quote: Ahigh

The only time they are very open about bringing in new dice is at a table that is being opened after a lock-up.

Excuse me, but aren't dice always brought to a table when it is opened up?
I don't recall seeing dice locked up with the chips at a table that is not in use.
Particular numbered dice need to be used during particular shifts, so "storing dice" at the table would make no sense.

Quote: Ahigh

In general, though, when they change the dice, it is attempted to be done in a very discreet way.... they can and will do it in a way that you might not notice(!!!)

I don't know of any discreet way for changing the dice at a table. Usually a stick is opened by the floorman, the old dice (5) are removed and given to the floorman. The new dice are dropped on the table and the stickman puts them in his bowl or pushes them to the next shooter.

I have never seen dice changed while someone is shooting. You are saying you have seen this? At the Silverton?

Are you sure they have a "discreet" way to change the dice? Do they use mirrors, slight of hand, smoke to cover the change?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Excuse me, but aren't dice always brought to a table when it is opened up?
I don't recall seeing dice locked up with the chips at a table that is not in use.
Particular numbered dice need to be used during particular shifts, so "storing dice" at the table would make no sense.

No, but what I am saying is that they often bring the dice still in the wrapper put them out on the felt and do things to inspect them on the felt in an open way that you can get closer and watch. Normally the inspection process is done in a back room or at the very least behind the table not where people are paying attention to what is going on AT the table.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I don't know of any discreet way for changing the dice at a table. Usually a stick is opened by the floorman, the old dice (5) are removed and given to the floorman. The new dice are dropped on the table and the stickman puts them in his bowl or pushes them to the next shooter.

I have never seen dice changed while someone is shooting. You are saying you have seen this? At the Silverton?

Are you sure they have a "discreet" way to change the dice? Do they use mirrors, slight of hand, smoke to cover the change?

I have never seen dice changed before a shooter has sevened out.

The way they will do the change discreetly is that when the bowl is normally dumped by the stick man, there will be a slightly different routine to change the dice. It sounds as if you have never seen this happen before, so you have no idea what I'm talking about. But when they change the dice and it's not a shift change or some other reason, when they bring the new stick over, they time it so that the new stick comes in right as the chips are being cleaned up and people are moaning and grabbing for their drinks, checking the cell phones and all that other jazz in a way that's not noticeable.

IE: nobody cares about the dice at that point except whoever is shooting next, and even that person is probably looking to grab a chip to put on the passline instead of at what is going on with the stick, the box, and the man behind the box handing in a new set of dice.

Quote: Ahigh

The way they will do the change discreetly is that when the bowl is normally dumped by the stick man, there will be a slightly different routine to change the dice. It sounds as if you have never seen this happen before, so you have no idea what I'm talking about. But when they change the dice and it's not a shift change or some other reason, when they bring the new stick over, they time it so that the new stick comes in right as the chips are being cleaned up and people are moaning and grabbing for their drinks, checking the cell phones and all that other jazz in a way that's not noticeable.

The most exquisitely choreographed ballet of fluid feet and hand movements that a casino can offer. The next time it is performed it will receive a standing ovation.

Quote: Ahigh

I have never seen dice changed before a shooter has sevened out.

So what's the problem? Then you have just seen the same things the rest of us have seen. What are you making a fuss over?

Quote: Ahigh

The way they will do the change discreetly is that when the bowl is normally dumped by the stick man, there will be a slightly different routine to change the dice. It sounds as if you have never seen this happen before, so you have no idea what I'm talking about.

You're right. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote: Ahigh

But when they change the dice and it's not a shift change or some other reason, when they bring the new stick over, they time it so that the new stick comes in right as the chips are being cleaned up and people are moaning and grabbing for their drinks, checking the cell phones and all that other jazz in a way that's not noticeable.

IE: nobody cares about the dice at that point except whoever is shooting next, and even that person is probably looking to grab a chip to put on the passline instead of at what is going on with the stick, the box, and the man behind the box handing in a new set of dice.

Why should we care what procedure they use? As long as they are not changing the dice while a shooter has them -- during his hand -- there is nothing wrong being done. Is there?

Ahigh, why do you see this as a problem? Dice get changed. Frankly, if they came to me while I was shooting with new dice with nice sharp, fresh edges, I would love it. New dice are easier to handle. Old dice are sticky, have rounded corners, not as easy to grip. Give me new dice on every throw if you think that will make a difference.

Ahigh, when you start seeing so many conspiracies, maybe it's time you took a vacation from playing craps.

Alan,

This is your thread. You started it. I am providing hard firm evidence that this happens. I never said it is a problem. I said it's absolutely true, there is no question that it is true, and you can verify it if you want.

I personally don't believe that the Silverton has even on a single occasion put compromised dice on their tables. If they have done this, I have been completely unaware of it. I do not equate swapping dice out after the table dumps as anything but due diligence.

There is a problem, however. The problem is that you are making way too many assumptions from what I am saying.

Again this is your thread, and whether you have seen dice changed after a table dumps or not, or whether every casino does it, it is something that is done in at least one casino and it's easy to verify as being true.

That's the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned.

I would do the exact same thing if I were a fair casino using fair dice knowing that dice get worn from normal play that creates exposure for the casino that throwing $10 at a sick of dice is cheap insurance if I am concerned about it becoming worse.

The fact that you even created this thread, to me, is just evidence that you don't believe the claim that I am making. So I'm saying, "believe it!" It's easy to verify and you don't need a poll to do it.

My issue is that in the other thread you implied that the casino is changing the dice when someoone is "hot", if that is actually possible. Your point seemed to be that the casino thinks something may be wrong with the dice that is allowing the thrower to be controlling them.

Or maybe I am all wrong and your point was as stated by Alan that casinos change dice all the time.

Not during the roll, but you are right. Table is dumping lots of money, dice get changed after the roll.

I absolutely have had Patrick (the gray haired old man) at the Silverton tell me this DIRECTLY that it's what he does and what he recommends to do.

He even said, "I'll change the dice ten times in a day if I have to."

This isn't up for debate unless you are questioning my credibility.

Find the guy I'm talking about and ask him if he told me that and get back to me.

This in addition to me watching it happen.

I have heard dealers at Fiesta Henderson say they used the same stick of dice for weeks though.

This was after I brought them a new stick because their stick was taped together and wasn't even WORKING.

So different places are different.

The biggest win I ever saw at Fiesta Henderson was TeddyS' win though. I have seen five figure wins at the Silverton on many occasions. So that may have a lot to do with it too.

I have seen it happen in tribal casinos.

Swap dice mid roll, change / rotate crew mid roll, even order a chip fill mid roll.

Funny stuff.

Players aren't the only superstitious morons.

Quote: MrV

Players aren't the only superstitious morons.

I think it is often superstion

Quote: wizard on a slightly different matter

Sadly, ignorance can go pretty high up the ladder....Superstition is a difficult thing to let go of. As I have said many times, the more ridiculous a belief is, the more tenaciously it tends to be held.

from https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/dealers/

Quote: odiousgambit

I think it is often superstion

Of course, it is ONLY supestition.

Think, man: what else COULD it be?

Quote: MrV

what else COULD it be?

Could be a precaution against bad dice slipped in. But I'm going with superstition.

Please explain this, Ahigh:

Quote: Ahigh

I have heard dealers at Fiesta Henderson say they used the same stick of dice for weeks though.

This was after I brought them a new stick because their stick was taped together and wasn't even WORKING.

What stick wasn't working? The stick of dice wasn't working? Or the stickman's stick wasn't working?
And if you meant the stickman's stick, you brought the casino a stick to use at the game? Wow. You have a special relationship there, guy.

You need to broaden your horizons, Ahigh. You also wrote:

Quote: Ahigh

I have seen five figure wins at the Silverton on many occasions. So that may have a lot to do with it too.

I saw a player win $1.2 million dollars at a craps table at Caesars, and they didn't break a sweat. He was a "don't player" at a crowded $10 table. He threw you a $1,000 tip when you 7'd-out.

In December I was playing one table over from a right way player who took Caesars for $4-million at a jammed $25 table.

No dice were changed, except on the regular schedule.

But Alan, you silly guy, the lucky few players who control the dice and make whatever numbers they want only play at the Silverton. They don't want the exposure their skill would get at Caesars.

AlanMendelson ..... Had this occur to me in New Orleans at Harrahs in December a few years back .... New Orleans Harrahs only had 2 tables open at the time (out of 8) - midday, not the usual shift change .... I had a lucky roll and about 5 minutes into the 2nd stick change (they change every 30 minutes in New Orleans instead of the standard 20 minutes elsewhere), they announced the table was going to close after this shooter .... after some moaning from the patrons, I swore it was going to be awhile ... another stick change later before they closed the table and moved the crew to a new table with a new stick of dice .... so they kinda pulled the table and dice for no apparent reason other than geography .... same crew, new location

At Sam's Town (Las Vegas) not too long ago, I noticed the biased dice were shorting the standard distribution of 5s on a particular table so I started Laying the 5 heavy on every roll ..... finally 2 hours after they had just put in new dice, they changed dice to more fair dice to stop my Lay bets

Sam don't like them "fives" so he uses biased dice?

About a month ago in Reno, I ALMOST saw a dice change in the middle of the person's roll because the table was dumping a lot of chips. It was on a weekend jam packed with patrons. Table limit was $10.

One shooter had a hot streak that hit every number for 6-number firebet. During this time, he played the PL for 10 and stacked each hardways for 200. Unbelievably, he hits those hardways at least 10 times (and pressing some of those winnings). The pit boss called other pit bosses to the table, had a conference of some sort and decided to bring out a new stick of dice to the table (at this point, the shooter had just picked up the dice that was pushed to him by the stickman). Upon seeing a new stick of dice on the table, commotion broke out at the table. The shooter refused to roll (he was still holding on to the dice) until the new stick of dice was taken off the table while other players argued with the boxman that it wasn't legit. The pit boss assured the table that they were going to change the dice AFTER the shooter finishes. More commotion ensues, and the pit boss picked up the new stick of dice before the table went back to game. He 7ed out 3 rolls after while hitting 2 more hardways.

After the 7, most people picked up their chips and walked away. Most were unhappy with what happened but happy with their large haul. The shooter had 2 other friends with him who were betting the same bets as him. Including the $5 firebet they had on the shooter, they walked away with at least $35k each. The table limit was raised to $25 immediately after with new stick of dice.

On a side note, I saw the same guys again this past weekend and asked what they did with their winnings. After the table broke up, they got a cab to a strip club before finishing the night at a brothel. They also made couple more trips to Reno in between this time and loss most of it.

Today at the Silverton, I rolled 5 points (a ten, a nine, and three eights) and they said, "change the dice" during my roll in a joking way (my bets were tiny - but others were winning a lot).

It literally is nearly an every day occurrence that I hear this. But they absolutely can and do change the dice over there after good rolls (not all of them, and including this one I don't think they changed the dice) .. but I left after my roll.

The previous 3 shooters before I rolled were all PSO's.

Dealers were Marco, Joe, Renee, Philip, and Sun Lee was on box.

I invite anyone to go the Silverton and ask them about the phrase "change the dice" as it is used both seriously and jokingly when someone has a good roll. But they never change the dice in the middle of a roll, just immediately afterwards.

Quote: DC7

After the table broke up, they got a cab to a strip club before finishing the night at a brothel.

A brothel near Reno?

Now we're getting to a place worth getting to!



To hell with dice, it's time for vice!