SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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March 17th, 2013 at 10:58:42 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

There are other conversations that the player never hears that have to do with wins and losses and what is going on related to which dice are in play and where.


So you're privy to what transpires behind the glittering emerald green curtain. Big deal. Tell us what happened when you bet the Field.
Quote: Ahigh

I am 100% sure they were just talking about the fact that a stick of Paulson dice is not cheap like a stick of Alibaba.com dice.


The difference being . . .?

Face
Administrator
Face
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
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March 17th, 2013 at 12:44:37 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

When a table starts paying players a lot of money at a casino, it is not uncommon for additional people to arrive behind the table. It is surveillance that typically notifies the pit boss or other individuals to stand behind and watch as larger amount of money start going out.

<snip>

Anyway, in general, I'm going to agree with Harley on knowledge of what various casinos do with respect to their policies on how dice go out onto table and whether they are new dice or dice that have been used before and whether or not those dice are favorable or unfavorable to typical bets at the casino is absolutely not something that the dealers or boxmen are aware of.



I suppose this’ll get ignored just like my correction of Harley claiming the Wynn dice sliders were actually DI’s, but in an attempt to supply fact into this sea of conjecture for those lurkers interested in the subject, I’ll say it again - Surv doesn’t give a rip about DI.

In all the conferences I’ve been to, all the biggest Surv guys I’ve spoken to; Zender, Allison, Hoke, Martin, and a ton of Directors from around the US and world, never in the history of ever has DI been so much as mentioned. Not because it’s unknown, but because there has not yet been a documented case of threat, and the evidence of the studies out there likewise raise no concern.

Before you get defensive, I am not calling you a liar. Perhaps Surv really did call for a change. But know that Surv and casino personnel in general are no different than life – they contain their fair share of dummies. Folks who still believe red is “due”, that slots “get hot”, and, I assume, that die are “bad luck”. If you truly are here to prove something from a mathematical/scientific standpoint, do not use stuff like the above as a sign that you’re on to something or proof that it exists. It can blind you from the truth, a truth of which I hope you find.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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March 17th, 2013 at 1:11:40 PM permalink
Quote: Harley

what's your point ? .... my point is the Boxman and dealers as well as the Pit Boss have no clue as to the balance or imbalance of the dice in most Nevada casinos ... all that is done behind closed doors (or incorrectly on the floor just for show) ... the decision to put what dice on what table is done from beyond the Crap's Pit

My contention is that it is done in a very methodical manner ...


Do you really think a Boxman or a dealer knows what serial numbered dice has a better Hold -- I doubt it --- it is someone in the Casino Management with access to a computer


Just so we're clear, you are alleging a widespread conspiracy that several (if not many) casinos are committing ongoing felonious fraudulent acts in dice games. What you describe is a blatant violation of several sections of NRS 465.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Harley
Harley
Joined: May 13, 2012
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March 17th, 2013 at 1:12:58 PM permalink
Quote: Face

I suppose this’ll get ignored just like my correction of Harley claiming the Wynn dice sliders were actually DI’s,



Dear Face .... please supply a quote and reference that I said the Wynn Dice Sliders were DI's ... I never said they were DIs ....

Quote: Harley

AHigh .... the Wynn Sliding dice story from late 2011 where several dealers and box were mysteriously fired and several players had trumped up civil charges filed against them was a case where some smart players exploited biased dice legally .... the facts of the case as reported do not make sense and a security friend of ours saw the video tape --- there was no sliding of the dice as alleged



.. I however did not correctly state my original position when I said they did not slide the dice -- they did not slide the dice in a manner that Bill Zender or Sal “THE HITMAN” would describe as a slide on Youtube --- and I believe you are making the same point

Quote: Face

I saw that footage. Several times, actually, wrote about it here.

That had zero to do with biased die, DI, DC, or anything else. It was 100% short-throw sliding, and a ridiculous example of it as well.

I'd take all of the player's money away just because it was such a sad example. I'd then award it right back due to the complete idiocy of the dealing squad that night.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just wanted to correct misinformation. Carry on...



I still contend they exploited biased dice in their venture ..... BTW, Steve Wynn had speed bumps put into the surface of his tables to prevent the amateur dice "sliding" to ever occur again
.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
tupp
tupp
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
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March 17th, 2013 at 1:24:45 PM permalink
Quote: Face

In all the conferences I’ve been to, all the biggest Surv guys I’ve spoken to; Zender, Allison, Hoke, Martin, and a ton of Directors from around the US and world, never in the history of ever has DI been so much as mentioned. Not because it’s unknown, but because there has not yet been a documented case of threat, and the evidence of the studies out there likewise raise no concern.


Actually, every casino that has a crapshooter table or tub (or table with a bump) takes extra countermeasures against DIs, due to the short distances. Casinos believe that dice influencing is a matter of degree, relative to the shooting distance.

If it is a matter of degree, then dice influencing can't be absolutely impossible.

Furthermore, there are several documented cases of dice influencing, even some cases with a lot of money "on the line."
EvenBob
EvenBob
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March 17th, 2013 at 1:36:17 PM permalink
edited
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Face
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Face
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March 17th, 2013 at 1:52:32 PM permalink
Quote: Harley

Dear Face .... please supply a quote and reference that I said the Wynn Dice Sliders were DI's ... I never said they were DIs ....

.. I however did not correctly state my original position when I said they did not slide the dice -- they did not slide the dice in a manner that Bill Zender or Sal “THE HITMAN” would describe as a slide on Youtube --- and I believe you are making the same point

I still contend they exploited biased dice in their venture ..... BTW, Steve Wynn had speed bumps put into the surface of his tables to prevent the amateur dice "sliding" to ever occur again



Nope, you’re right. I misspoke. I wasn’t DI, it was biased die, as shown here…

Quote: Harley

AHigh .... the Wynn Sliding dice story from late 2011 where several dealers and box were mysteriously fired and several players had trumped up civil charges filed against them was a case where some smart players exploited biased dice legally .... the facts of the case as reported do not make sense and a security friend of ours saw the video tape --- there was no sliding of the dice as alleged



The post in question can be found here

However, I still call shenanigans. I haven’t seen anything YouTube based, but Zender was there when I saw the slide, was actually part of the presentation, and that’s simply what it was. I wrote about it here, lemme go yank some text…

Quote: Face from WGPC blog

I don't know if it was ever shown here, but I got to see the Surveillance footage of the Wynn dice sliding incident. I wasn't sure whether to laugh, cry, or just throw up. Guys... this dude was standing right at the stick. He set the dice on top of each other and PUSHED them, in exactly the same fashion a dealer would push out a stack of cheques to you. You know, the hold the bottom with thumb and middle finger, push down on the top with index finger...that's how he "threw" the dice! If that wasn't bad enough, on many of the throws the bottom die didn't even make it to the "E" in "COME"!! In the majority of the throws, it didn't even make it past the "C" in "COME"!! Throw after throw...it was expletive crazy, I couldn't believe it. More than anything this week, that just stands out as the biggest WTF moment I have ever seen in Game Protection.



The bottom die never left the table, and never made it past the letters “C-O-M-E” in the come box. The die on top likewise wasn’t “thrown”, it simply fell from the top of the bottom die, and rolled to the wall with the force of the push. Perhaps I misunderstand the concept of biased die, but to me, that can be described as nothing other than a slide.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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March 17th, 2013 at 1:53:39 PM permalink
Quote: Face

I’ll say it again - Surv doesn’t give a rip about DI.
.



Good post, Face, you nailed it. Here's the thing
about casinos. I often keep track in a notebook
or on a card, of the spins when I'm playing
roulette. This sometimes is of great interest to
the pit. They ask what I'm doing and I say I have
a bad back and its hard for me to look up at
the marquee a lot. They always buy that and
leave me alone.

If I were to tell them I have a winning method
and I'm here to beat them and I need to keep
track on my card to do so, they might laugh and
scoff and say something sarcastic. But I guarantee
if I start winning, even if its just luck, they will
tell me to put the card away. You can't tell them
you have a method that wins and then start winning,
they aren't stupid. They'll play it safe every time.

Just like DI, they know I'm no threat, they don't believe
I can win, but their job is to protect the bottom line.
I'd do the same thing if I were them.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Harley
Harley
Joined: May 13, 2012
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March 17th, 2013 at 1:57:15 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Just so we're clear, you are alleging a widespread conspiracy that several (if not many) casinos are committing ongoing felonious fraudulent acts in dice games. What you describe is a blatant violation of several sections of NRS 465.


Simple answer - yes ...... see a sample list of casinos here (no password needed)

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/cheating-casinos.html

See NRS 465 here http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/Legal/LawLibrary/NRS/NRS-465.html

Then ask yourself in this Wild Wild West of Nevada with ZERO dice specifications or crap laws,

- what is the risk to reward ratio of getting caught ? ..... $10,000. fine IF PROVEN vs. approx. $2,000,000. extra per month cash per casino (Caesar's example).

- What are the jurisdictional problems involved .... dice are made in Mexico and China ?

- NGC refuses to enforce whatever laws with their caliper - they say their inaccurate dice balancing caliper is the only one that can be used in court

- and there are no dice specification laws which in the Wild Wild West allows for thousands of so-called experts to point fingers at graphs and say "he said she said"

Quote: Steven L Forte in his book “Casino Game Protection: A Comprehensive Guide”, page 247

The bottom line: in jurisdictions without regulations that set forth an acceptable range of tolerances or standards, it can be difficult to state when a die is legally acceptable, or when it should be deemed a cheating device.

.... that is simply my opinion .... Ciao, Harley ... Link = http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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March 17th, 2013 at 3:14:12 PM permalink
Quote: Harley

$10,000. fine IF PROVEN vs. approx. $2,000,000. extra per month cash per casino (Caesar's example).


I and quite a few other folks would just love to know when you'll be playing -- and presumably losing -- at Caesars.
Please do us the favor of posting the next losing appearance.

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