why does it seem like craps dealers

are always trying to talk players into making bad bets????

Examples:

Don't come betters...if the point on your DC bets ends up being a 6 or 8 they will ask "do you want me to take down the bet?"

If you place the 6 or 8 for $6 and win...often you will get a dealers asking "do you want a FREE five or FREE nine" meaning take $5 of your winnings and place bet the 5 or 9...

of course there are other examples....just naming a few...why do you think they do this?

Obviously its not because they are trying to win money for the house...they would rather see the player win....But it doesn't make sense from a tipping stand point either....I can understand why dealers at a PG poker table "goat" plays into playing the bonus...or BJ dealers "goating" players into playing a progressive jackpot ect ect....they are doing it for the potential tip...if you hit a big bonus/jackpot you will most like give them a large tip...

but on a crap[s table this makes no sense....they are telling you to make poor bets that dont have jackpot payouts...which makes it less likely you will be a winner and tip.....

anyway...just was always curious....

Might be something to do with "doing their jobs"?

Dealers are instructed to shill for prop bets, and to press bets, because the house makes more money that way.

Also, dealers might not understand the math behind the game. They might see that 6s and 8s are the most frequently made points, and assume that having no action on those points from the don't is a good play.

Similarly they often cringe when you ask for odds to work on come out roll because they have seen so many 7 "winners" take down the entire row of odds bets. But it's the mathematically sound play.

Dealers generally learn "strategy" from players, and most players play very poorly.

Quote: sodawater

Might be something to do with "doing their jobs"?

I don't see it that way...but maybe its just me....IMO a dealer should take my bets and explain how bets work if I ask....not encourage me to make certain bets.....But like I said that's just IMO....But it would be interesting to know how casino management feels in this subject as I have never worked in one....Of course they want their dealers to be lively and energetic and smile ect ect...and answer questions and take bets....but do they want them giving game advice? I really don't know the answer to this question....


and I don't really think as a stick man as "shilling for pro bets" he is just calling out available bets that can be made because time is an issue....I guess the same could be said for a deal asking if you want a "free five" or "no action" on a DC....but to me it seams more like a suggestion of how you should bet and not just telling you the bets that are available....

anyway...its no big deal...I'm not saying its a bad thing...and I certainly do listen so it doesn't matter to me

Dealers are explicitly instructed by their superiors to advertise prop bets when on stick. It is part of their job evaluation and they can get written up for not doing it.

When I am on a mostly empty table, and the stick is hawking his center bets, I like to tell them I will play any center bet that has 5% HE or less.
That usually gets me a smile and no more hawking.

Quote: RaleighCraps

When I am on a mostly empty table, and the stick is hawking his center bets, I like to tell them I will play any center bet that has 5% HE or less.
That usually gets me a smile and no more hawking.

So hard 6 and 8 for one roll, then?

Quote: sodawater

So hard 6 and 8 for one roll, then?

Why, because if I make two 9% bets, I can cut the HE to 4.5% ? ;-)

hard 6 and hard 8 actually have a 2.8 percent house edge if you make it for only one roll, win, lose or draw.

Getting stroked by a player just playing the six and eight for six dollars is boring!! Just trying to get action for their own sanity.

When I get the hard sell or any type of arm twisting, I just proceed to stroke extra hard in return.

Take it down, put it back up. Work it. Turn it on. Turn it off. Etc.

If they can't figure out the connection after a while, I just enjoy it.

If they complain about my stroking, I just quip back about trying to sell me on bets I have never taken before in my life and "did you just meet me?"

I take it all in stride except the "want the action?" when playing the DC with 6 or 8 the new number. It's impossible the dealer doesnt know that is screwing the player. On the other hand, some players train them to do this, as they really do ask for the change. Perhaps the ultimate in math-challenged type decisions.

Quote: vert1276

are always trying to talk players into making bad bets?

I would not say "into making bad bets". Its more that they are trying to get some action and that the "action" can often be viewed as a bad bet.

If a total neophyte wanders by they may suggest pass line or Field bet. A field bet is not all that bad and it is of course quick and easy to explain to a player if the table is busy. If an inexperienced but semi knowledgeable player is standing there sticking to the pass line they may try to crank up the action a bit.

Some dealers have "learned" bad habits and will try to pass them on perhaps with good intentions. I had one dealer persistently recommend that I say "no action" on all my Don't Come bets unless a Six or Eight had rolled. Its what he had been taught.

The Stick of course is required to have a patter wherein he tries to "sell" those sucker bets .... its what he is paid to do and one stick chick actually uses the term sucker bets in her patter.

Quote: FleaStiff

one dealer persistently recommend that I say "no action" on all my Don't Come bets unless a Six or Eight had rolled.

I think you got that backwards, or the dealer was some kind of fiend. [action on the 6 and 8 can be the type to tick a guy off with average bad luck]

Quote: odiousgambit

I think you got that backwards,

That is quite common.
> or the dealer was some kind of fiend. That is quite common too.

You are correct of course. The dealer was trying to get me to travel the DontCome bets only to the numbers that are less likely to be rolled rather than allowing my DontAction to travel to the Six or Eight which are much more likely to be rolled again. Still its not in the player's interest to do that.

Quote: vert1276

are always trying to talk players into making bad bets????

It is usually required by rule. I dug out an old table games manual from a former employer. It states under "calling the game, rule 11": Encourage bets on the propositions and the field.

Quote: FleaStiff

... one stick chick actually uses the term sucker bets in her patter.

I heard a Vegas dealer use the term "junk in the middle". So they're not all bad.

Quote: sodawater

hard 6 and hard 8 actually have a 2.8 percent house edge if you make it for only one roll, win, lose or draw.

Incorrect statement. The house edge % is the same regardless of the number of rolls it is active, as each roll is an independent trial.

Nah, darth. You just have to figure out (as sodawater obviously does) just which rolls the 6 and 8 are more likely to hit, then bet them then for one roll only.

;-)

Quote: Doc

You have to figure out just which rolls the 6 and 8 are more likely to hit, then bet them.

I've been trying that system and even when I knew for certain that it was going to be 6, 6, 9, 7, I still didn't make much money on it.

Quote: odiousgambit

I take it all in stride except the "want the action?" when playing the DC with 6 or 8 the new number. It's impossible the dealer doesnt know that is screwing the player. On the other hand, some players train them to do this, as they really do ask for the change. Perhaps the ultimate in math-challenged type decisions.

No. On moving DC's to the 6 or 8, asking the player "if action?" on them is just being polite, as too many players routinely "no action" them. To say there's a math conspiracy on the part of the dealers here is the ultimate in being a paranoid, courtesy-challenge crap player.

Secondly, to address A-high's advice to "deliberately stroke crap dealers" is also the worst advice possible. (This is tantamount to saying: "Well, TWO can play that silly suicide game just to mess up a live action game!")

These are precisely the guys want on your side, so alienating them by deliberate stroking them is asinine and will cause well-deserved problems on a game you're trying to find joy and action on. If anyone has a toolbox of hostile and unpleasant "anti-stroker" remedies, it is a crap dealer. Everything from pushing out dice with nasty numbers on them, to diverting the cocktail waitresses ("they're strokers, here...") can and will be done to slow the game and deny service...

Look for trouble in a casino, and make enemies of the dealers servicing your own game, and you'll get the trouble and loses you deserve. Just pointless.

I think it's their job to fan the flames of bad bets. It can be annoying if it is aggressive or completely taking advantage of a new person.

I watched a dealer develop a superstition in a new bettor by convincing them to LITERALLY SWITCH don't pass bets to the pass line if the point was a 6 or an 8. "Want to switch over?" I've seen two people who do that now and I still can't wrap my mind around it... it's the worst of both worlds.

Quote: Doc

Incorrect statement. The house edge % is the same regardless of the number of rolls it is active, as each roll is an independent trial.

This is why I think we should all ONLY talk about edge per roll.

The edge per roll on the field when it pays triple on the 12 and double on the two, AND all of the hardways have the exact same edge per roll of 2.78%

So Doc, I think you're wrong.

Unless you don't count ties, of course. And as the Wizard states himself, he counts ties, and this is his website.

Quote: Wizard

Many other sources do not count ties in the house edge calculation, especially for the Don’t Pass bet in craps and the banker and player bets in baccarat. The rationale is that if a bet isn’t resolved then it should be ignored. I personally opt to include ties although I respect the other definition.

And just out of curiosity, if you don't count the ties, and you continue to insist that you are right, Doc, what is the edge per roll on a hardway bet?

I don't recall ever having taken a bet off the table, other than cases like a place bet that comes down when that number is set as a new point or a come bet that is paid and down. Since my bets don't come down until they lose, the whole concept of "edge per roll" is meaningless to me. I place a bet, and it has a house edge (sometimes zero), whether it takes one roll or fifty for it to lose. I don't take place bets down even when they are resolved as wins.

Now if I had that insight that some seem to possess and I knew which rolls I should be betting on and which rolls to bring them down on, then I might have a different perspective. But I don't. Every roll seems pretty much the same to me, though I don't bother to work my place bets and come bet odds on come out rolls.

Quote: Doc

I don't recall ever having taken a bet off the table, other than cases like a place bet that comes down when that number is set as a new point or a come bet that is paid and down. Since my bets don't come down until they lose, the whole concept of "edge per roll" is meaningless to me. I place a bet, and it has a house edge (sometimes zero), whether it takes one roll or fifty for it to lose. I don't take place bets down even when they are resolved as wins.

Now if I had that insight that some seem to possess and I knew which rolls I should be betting on and which rolls to bring them down on, then I might have a different perspective. But I don't. Every roll seems pretty much the same to me, though I don't bother to work my place bets and come bet odds on come out rolls.

The casino wants you to never take a bet down, especially a bet with an edge. I am sure that your play is more welcome at the casino than mine.

PaigowDan further strengthens this certainty I have.

The dealers often claim they look out for players.

The ONLY reason a dealer will look out for a random player (IE: that they have never seen before) is if they think there is a TOKE in it for them.

Just my two cents.

OK, to go on a tangent, but remain true (I believe) to the OP. Would one also question why waiters/cashiers ask if you would like french fries with your order, or to add mushrooms to your steak, or, maybe you would like to add a salad? It is, as already stated, perhaps part of their job. Do we like it? No, probably not. Do we accept it? For the most part, I would say yes. I tend to take the polite approach and say "No thank you" while maybe thinking to myself, "If I had wanted it, I would have asked for it." Take the high road and ignore or politely decline the suggestion.

My two cents.

On the subject of wait staff asking if you want fries (and I'm assuming a sit down restaurant, not fast food) it's typical for fries to be included and the question serves a valid purpose.

On the other hand, I hate when paying the bill, getting asked "do you need change?" They might as well say "is the extra for me?" The correct thing is to say "I'll be right back with the change" thus prompting the customer to say to keep it - or not.



I did a spur of the moment trip to Sands this Sunday. They have a rare rule: you pay the vig only on wins. So everybody with $20 or more on 4/5/9/10 bought it. I placed $15 PLUS $1 PIGGY BACK on 5 and 9. The first time I pressed to $20, the dealer didn't automatically buy it or even ask me if I wanted to.

A big player was next to me and told me the dealer should have done it or at least asked, PARTICULARLY SINCE I HAD TOKE BETS UP!

Quote: Paigowdan

No. On moving DC's to the 6 or 8, asking the player "if action?" on them is just being polite, as too many players routinely "no action" them. To say there's a math conspiracy on the part of the dealers here is the ultimate in being a paranoid, courtesy-challenge crap player.

Secondly, to address A-high's advice to "deliberately stroke crap dealers" is also the worst advice possible. (This is tantamount to saying: "Well, TWO can play that silly suicide game just to mess up a live action game!")

These are precisely the guys want on your side, so alienating them by deliberate stroking them is asinine and will cause well-deserved problems on a game you're trying to find joy and action on. If anyone has a toolbox of hostile and unpleasant "anti-stroker" remedies, it is a crap dealer. Everything from pushing out dice with nasty numbers on them, to diverting the cocktail waitresses ("they're strokers, here...") can and will be done to slow the game and deny service...

Look for trouble in a casino, and make enemies of the dealers servicing your own game, and you'll get the trouble and loses you deserve. Just pointless.

But Dan, what can a stick do to make my life rough as a player? Surely you're not suggesting that pushing a 4-3 to me, or calling in a CW is going to make me 7 out on the next throw, are you? ;-) Or, are you saying, that those really are real situations that cause the 7 out?

I have understood that hawking the center bets is part of the stick job, and I guess that is another reason why I like playing late night, early morning. The atmosphere is much more laid back, and once the stick knows they are getting no center action, they don't bother hawking it.

On a trek Off Topic.... I had a box at Mirage show me a new one the last time I played there. it had been a while since a point had been made, and I had the dice and made an odds bet for the dealers. I said something along the lines that the boys needed to help us get a point. At that point, the box said since I was betting for the boys he would turn the force field off, by turning the drop box paddle around 180*. Sure enough, the second roll I made the point. He explained that there are contacts in the drop box that are activated by the paddle placed in one direction, vs the other.
Of course, this also explains why new money in a roll will result in 7 out. It gives the box a chance to play with the paddle, and activate the contacts.

Quote: Ahigh

This is why I think we should all ONLY talk about edge per roll.

The edge per roll on the field when it pays triple on the 12 and double on the two, AND all of the hardways have the exact same edge per roll of 2.78%

So Doc, I think you're wrong.

Unless you don't count ties, of course. And as the Wizard states himself, he counts ties, and this is his website.



And just out of curiosity, if you don't count the ties, and you continue to insist that you are right, Doc, what is the edge per roll on a hardway bet?

AH,
can you lay out the math for me for how you arrive at the 2.78% Edge per Roll ?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

On the subject of wait staff asking if you want fries (and I'm assuming a sit down restaurant, not fast food) it's typical for fries to be included and the question serves a valid purpose.

On the other hand, I hate when paying the bill, getting asked "do you need change?" They might as well say "is the extra for me?" The correct thing is to say "I'll be right back with the change" thus prompting the customer to say to keep it - or not.



I did a spur of the moment trip to Sands this Sunday. They have a rare rule: you pay the vig only on wins. So everybody with $20 or more on 4/5/9/10 bought it. I placed $15 PLUS $1 PIGGY BACK on 5 and 9. The first time I pressed to $20, the dealer didn't automatically buy it or even ask me if I wanted to.

A big player was next to me and told me the dealer should have done it or at least asked, PARTICULARLY SINCE I HAD TOKE BETS UP!

Harrah's Cherokee in NC has the Buy 5 and 9, vig on the win, as well, BUT you have to say BUY AND it has to be an even amount. If you say Buy the 5 for $25, they will not book the bet.
If I am betting the Buy 5 for $30, and my newbie buddy is playing along with me and says $30 five, I will get paid $44 and he will get paid $42.

In a way, that is just bogus. It does force players to learn the game, and in the end, I suppose it is better for those of us who do know the right bets, since the other players are keeping the game more profitable.

Quote: RaleighCraps

AH,
can you lay out the math for me for how you arrive at the 2.78% Edge per Roll ?

house edge times probability it will resolve in 1 roll.
(1/11)*(11/36) = 1/36 or about 2.78%

Quote: miplet

house edge times probability it will resolve in 1 roll.
(1/11)*(11/36) = 1/36 or about 2.78%

thank you. I can understand it, I just can't create it. ;-)

If for one roll only, why not hop it and get paid three times as much? Oh God I better say $31 instead of $10, for a $1 bet, you know how them math boys are!

Quote: DeMango

If for one roll only, why not hop it and get paid three times as much? Oh God I better say $31 instead of $10, for a $1 bet, you know how them math boys are!

because the house edge on hop bets is astronomically higher than the house edge on hardways for one roll only. simple reason, the hop bets can't tie.

Quote: RaleighCraps

But Dan, what can a stick do to make my life rough as a player? Surely you're not suggesting that pushing a 4-3 to me, or calling in a CW is going to make me 7 out on the next throw, are you? ;-) Or, are you saying, that those really are real situations that cause the 7 out?

No, of course not. It has no effect at all. Except in the mind of player x, where it counts.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I have understood that hawking the center bets is part of the stick job, and I guess that is another reason why I like playing late night, early morning. The atmosphere is much more laid back, and once the stick knows they are getting no center action, they don't bother hawking it.

I've never hawked props on stick when I dealt. I knew our crowd, and we treated each other respectfully. When some new guy came in to take shots, we'd pass the dice on him if a hair were out of place.

Quote: Raleighcraps

On a trek Off Topic.... I had a box at Mirage show me a new one the last time I played there. it had been a while since a point had been made, and I had the dice and made an odds bet for the dealers. I said something along the lines that the boys needed to help us get a point. At that point, the box said since I was betting for the boys he would turn the force field off, by turning the drop box paddle around 180*. Sure enough, the second roll I made the point. He explained that there are contacts in the drop box that are activated by the paddle placed in one direction, vs the other.
Of course, this also explains why new money in a roll will result in 7 out. It gives the box a chance to play with the paddle, and activate the contacts.

Ahh, I love it.

Never underestimate the power of suggestion!

Quote: Ahigh

The casino wants you to never take a bet down, especially a bet with an edge. I am sure that your play is more welcome at the casino than mine.

PaigowDan further strengthens this certainty I have.

The dealers often claim they look out for players.

The ONLY reason a dealer will look out for a random player (IE: that they have never seen before) is if they think there is a TOKE in it for them.

Just my two cents.

Two cents it is. We look out for new players out of courtesy, and only a FOOL of a dealer thinks he could do a thing about tokes other than being fair to the people and focused on the game, - and NOT on his damn tokes.

Tokes take care of themselves when you take care of players. But different players need different levels of care.

Good dealers know this.

Quote: Paigowdan

Tokes take care of themselves when you take care of players. And different players need different levels of care.

Good dealers know this.

That's why I wanna play craps with you...you'll keep the dealers on the good, cuz you're(were) a good dealer

Its the dealers job to sell the prop bets!

If you want to get an answer to a question like this you can always buy a book on dealing craps.

http://www.amazon.com/Craps-Vic-Taucer-Ralph-Cutolo/dp/0924719087

There are a few sites that are for the dealers, heres one of them;

http://thedealerslounge.yuku.com/forums/6/Table-Games-Dealing-Forum#.URu55q7eN9k

If you are going to place your money on any table game you should know about the dealers that are standing on the other side of the table. Dealers are taught to sell every bad bet there is , They start off with selling you the pass-line bet they move on to the prop bets! They will try to get players to put money in the field. They will hustle the players for tokes, that is how they make their money, they don't get paid that much in an hourly wage!

Now granted they learn the right way to deal the game in dealers school, then they hit the casinos, for the second school, where they learn to hustle for tokes, and depending on the casino, they can learn all the bad things they can do to the players. One of my favorites is shorting sticking, they love to use this on the DI's and let's not forget all the woman, while this serves two different purposes, one to get the DI off balance when they have to reach way out of their way to get the dice and the other is for the pervert dealers to see the girls boobs they are dealing too!

Then you have the dealers that hate their jobs and love to take it out on their players that will do anything they can to make them lose, they will start arguments with a player that is not toking them, they will short pay them, they will, pay a cohort instead of the player. You will find this happening when you have a bunch of drunks on the tables. Then you have the dealers that are only there to pick up and envelope every week, they hate there job and will take it out on any player they can, when the shooter is shooting, they will play with there working stacks, they will stick their hands down in the tub, or reach out to straighten out a bet.

For the unexpected players that don't know anything about the game you will hear the dealers asking the new player if that's a two-way hardway bet, that's when the dealers places a bet for the player and themselves on a hard way bet! Anytime you hear the dealers asking if it's a two way bet you can almost bet that they are doing other things to cheat the players out of their money. It's the pit supervisors job to put a stop to toke hustling, if you can find a copy of “Casino Supervision A Basic Guide” used pick it up!

One of the worst casinos for toke hustling was the Sahara before it closed down.
It's your job to know where your bets are placed on the table and to know what the pay out are for any bet you have on the table! That way you can't be cheated by a bad dealer! It's also you job to know that any bet the dealer is trying to sell you is a bad bet! If you are putting your money on the tables you should read everything you can get your hands on about how the casinos run and the dealers that are standing across the tables from you.

This site will give you a good insight into how dealers feel about their players, and yes it does cover casinos in the states. The one question about Jokers Wild, is for a casino here in Henderson, which is right south of Vegas.

http://thedealerslounge.yuku.com/forums/6/Table-Games-Dealing-Forum#.URu55q7eN9k


In closing there are some really great dealers that do the best job then can for the players, while still keeping the casinos happy.
I've met the best and the worst, I stay away for the casinos that allow the dealers to do anything they want to.
A few weeks ago I saw a dealer, that I happen to think is one of the best ones that I've ever ran into on a table tell his new players not to bet the pass-line that it was a bad bet.

I've also only seen one of these classes where the dealer told the class that he was giving not to use come bets, to place there bets because they had control over their bets that way.

Good dealers take pride in their work, they will not do anything that will hurt their players, yes they still sell the prop bets but they are not as aggressive as their counterparts in doing so!

Quote: superrick

they hate there job and will take it out on any player they can, when the shooter is shooting, they will play with there working stacks, they will stick their hands down in the tub, or reach out to straighten out a bet.

You know, it's funny you mention that...because I see that shit happen FREQUENTLY!
All the time when I'm at a table, and everyone on my side of the table is smart betting (no props, PL+Odds, maybe a 6/8 Place) I'll notice the dealer basically not even paying attention to the game, and "riffling" their working stacks, or like you said, they'll reach out and straighten a line bet or something asinine...

Dealers Pet Peeves

Now I didn't write them but you can read what that dealer across the table thinks about you on this link:

http://thedealerslounge.yuku.com/topic/5221/Pet-Peeves-on-the-dice-game-whats-yours?page=1#.URvmXq7eN9k

Quote: thedealerslounge.yuku.com

...

Moderator's Note: The quote was removed for questionable copyright infringement.
SuperRick quoted several posts in their entirety. That violates our rules about copying content from other websites.

The non tippers rest their case.

Quote: Ahigh

This is why I think we should all ONLY talk about edge per roll.

The edge per roll on the field when it pays triple on the 12 and double on the two, AND all of the hardways have the exact same edge per roll of 2.78%

So Doc, I think you're wrong.

Unless you don't count ties, of course. And as the Wizard states himself, he counts ties, and this is his website.

And just out of curiosity, if you don't count the ties, and you continue to insist that you are right, Doc, what is the edge per roll on a hardway bet?

This idea of calculating a per-roll edge and counting "ties" is an illusion, in my view. If you take down a bet and never make that bet again, OK; but this is probably never the case. Eventually, that bet will be put up again and eventually resolved, in which case is edge was whatever is normally calculated. Non-resolutions are not TIES.

The root of this problem is trying to calculate a house edge using a bet handle, which may or may not include, for example, pushes on DP/DC. It makes more sense to me to simply figure the expected value of a bet. For example, the expected value of the pass line is -28 units out of the "Perfect 1980", or -27 units for the DP. Now, whether you include the bet amount on the push 12 or not, you can get 1.36% or 1.40%, but it's still -27 units. The other side of this "confusion coin" is calculating the HA on line bets with odds lumping all the bet amounts together, so you "reduce the house edge" by taking or laying odds. Here again, the expected value is -28 units for the Perfect 1980, no matter whether you take no odds or 100X odds!

Cheers,
Alan Shank

I didn't think about it when I made the post thanks!!!!!!!!!