SOOPOO's dice toss challenge
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26 members have voted
I think that with practice someone can hit the two dimes with two dice five out of five times. But I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not there is dice influencing or dice controlling or if it works to any measurable, repeatable degree.
And now to the overriding discussion:
I think everyone who picks up two dice and throws them on the table exerts some influence on the dice. We are all dice influencers. In fact we are all dice controllers, because each of us sets the dice on a path that is set by the laws of physics. However, since we are all dice influencers and dice controllers who among us can claim that we can determine the end result of what faces will show on the dice when they come to rest? That person is entitled to fifty dollars.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'd like to get back to the original post:I think that with practice someone can hit the two dimes with two dice five out of five times. But I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not there is dice influencing or dice controlling or if it works to any measurable, repeatable degree.
Indeed.
There is much more to it than simply hitting a chosen "landing zone."
'Twould behoove a would-be dice influencer to focus on trying to stop the dice from rolling after impact, i.e. perfect the so-called "dead cat bounce."
Just the two cents of a non-believer.
In this video:
http://goodshooter.com/ahigh/hard4.mov
One of the dice bounces off of the mirror, which (to my untrained eye) seems to affect its outcome. In addition, it seems a little internally inconsistent relative to Ahigh's comments "If each die has the same number of bounces and each sound of the bounce happens simultaneously, that is a big plus."
To quote MrV, "Just the two cents of a non-believer."
Quote: deedubbsI also agree that the two dimes challenge is clever, but only would prove dice landing area control, which is likely much easier than controlling their final positions.
In this video:
http://goodshooter.com/ahigh/hard4.mov
One of the dice bounces off of the mirror, which (to my untrained eye) seems to affect its outcome. In addition, it seems a little internally inconsistent relative to Ahigh's comments "If each die has the same number of bounces and each sound of the bounce happens simultaneously, that is a big plus."
To quote MrV, "Just the two cents of a non-believer."
The initial impact sound is primary, but if the subsequent bounce sounds are in close proximity, like I said, it's a plus.
I have no control over anything except how the dice arch up and spin until the make first contact with the felt surface. So maybe if you focused on that part it would be helpful.
Also, I pointed out the dice touch each other right after they hit the back wall. That's going to make a bigger difference than a collision with the mirror, but I'm less sure than you seem to be that the dice touched the mirror. That could be a corner of the dice hitting the felt and no contact with the mirror.
In either case, the touching of the two dice after hitting the back wall is the biggest no-no as far as how I judge this particular shot.
Any contact with mirror in this example is late enough in the scene and slight enough not to be worth more than a quarter spin difference between the two dice.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'd like to get back to the original post:
I think that with practice someone can hit the two dimes with two dice five out of five times. But I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not there is dice influencing or dice controlling or if it works to any measurable, repeatable degree.
It does... the claim of DI's is that they are aiming for a small patch of the dice table, repeatedly, with a certain bounce, spin and arc.
This test covers one of those items. There is no claim that "do this and you can influence dice", it's just that "do this as a measurable, repeatable test to show that you can throw a pair of dice in a cerain way in a highly repeatable manor". Which is a key claim of DI's.
Quote: AhighI can hit the same spot repetitively, but I want to reiterate, I care more about where I hit the back wall than where I hit the felt unless someone's chips are in my way.
Heck, then lets tape 2 dimes to the back wall.
If someone can't hit the same spot on the felt, how the hell can one hit the same spot on the back wall?
Quote: AhighI can hit the same spot repetitively
Then taking SOOPOO's money should be easy.
Quote: MakingBookThen taking SOOPOO's money should be easy.
Then do it super star!!!
Quote: MakingBookHeck, then lets tape 2 dimes to the back wall.
If someone can't hit the same spot on the felt, how the hell can one hit the same spot on the back wall?
Wow, you're pretty quick at this!!!
Quote: AcesAndEightsAhigh, is that video video clip with the highest FPS camera you have? I ask because it seems like you would want more frames per second to do really good physical analysis on your throws. Not criticizing, just asking.
That video is cropped from an 848x480@240 (9.7Mpix/sec) from the GoPro Hero3. The highest framerate camera that I have at a reasonable enough resolution is the JVC which operates at 640x360@300 (6.9Mpix/sec). The GoPro sacrifices a bit on the framerate but the higher resolution is very valuable when trying to make out the pips.
I am getting a Casio EX ZR1000 in a few days that does 512x384@240 (4.7Mpix/sec) as well. But the GoPro Hero3 is currently king of low-cost slo-mo right now.
The camera that I really want is the Sony NEX-FS700U which is king of all slow-mo under $10,000. I will get it, but for now, I'm loading up on every flavor of $1,000 and cheaper and doing multiple angles with closer views to compensate for lack of resolution.
The NEX-FS700U does 1080P@240 (49.7Mpix/sec) and has roughly ten times the bandwidth of the GoPro Hero3's 240hz. But the cost is a little more than 10x the cost too, so I'm saving up. The Sony NEX-FS700U can trade off resolution for framerate so it can do 720p at 480 frames per second I'm pretty sure.
But yeah, you can see from this 240hz slow motion footage that I would really like to have 1000 frames per second.
I'm also building an LED strobe system to make it easier to make out pips and that should help reduce the need for the more expensive camera, though I still intend to get it.
Quote: AhighI'm also building an LED strobe system to make it easier to make out pips and that should help reduce the need for the more expensive camera, though I still intend to get it.
Have you considered using differently-colored permanent markers to color the pips on each face differently? You don't need to see the pips, you just need to identify which face is which. A blurred swath of color should suffice.
Quote: MathExtremistHave you considered using differently-colored permanent markers to color the pips on each face differently? You don't need to see the pips, you just need to identify which face is which. A blurred swath of color should suffice.
No, but that is a great idea.
Now...the dice are larger than dimes, so being able to HIT dimes, is irrelevant...
However, you give a more rational thought...such as one I practice frequently, and its definitely attainable...
What I was told, by someone who I truly believe is a dice influencer...is to practice throwing dice, at a 5' distance, and getting them to land in a small saucer without sliding out nor knocking over the saucer...it seems equally as impossible, but I watched this guy as he bedded in and after about 10 minutes, went 10/10 at getting regulation 3/4" cubes to stay in the saucer...
Quote: MathExtremistHave you considered using differently-colored permanent markers to color the pips on each face differently? You don't need to see the pips, you just need to identify which face is which. A blurred swath of color should suffice.
wouldn't that alter the balance of the dice and thus invalidate the scientific results coming out of ahigh's lab?
Quote: sodawaterwouldn't that alter the balance of the dice and thus invalidate the scientific results coming out of ahigh's lab?
No.
You guys talking crap about me might want to consider how much time and money I have put into my pursuits. Or even just into the parts where I share them with you guys. It is absolutely time I could be better spending doing plenty of other things.
Quote: BuzzardCome on Aaron. For the most part you have been treated with respect. And given a chance to defend your passion.
Yeah, you're right.
Quote: AhighIt is absolutely time I could be better spending doing plenty of other things.
Could not agree more.
Quote: AhighYou guys talking crap about me might want to consider how much time and money I have put into my pursuits. Or even just into the parts where I share them with you guys. It is absolutely time I could be better spending doing plenty of other things.
To dream ... perchance, to think ...
Look, you know this is a polarizing issue.
Dice setting seems akin to cold fusion, UFOs, and the holy grail: a zipless fu*k.
Quote: AhighHopefully I can do a video soon but I don't see a lot of other people responding to this. To be honest, if SOOPOO was a true sport, he'd just GIVE me $50 just for going through the effort. $50 would be a TINY FRACTION of what my time is worth for how long it will take me to do this. And SOOPOO is just sitting back getting compensated for his work at a much higher rate, taking the position that we are all his little minions.
You guys talking crap about me might want to consider how much time and money I have put into my pursuits. Or even just into the parts where I share them with you guys. It is absolutely time I could be better spending doing plenty of other things.
Yikes Aaron! I am asking for NO money to come my way.... If I win, you get to donate money to charity, if I lose, I give you money. The 'minion' word is ridiculous.... I actually thought you would be interested in my challenge, to see if YOU could control your toss well enough to do this.... The $50 was just to make it a tiny bit more interesting.... And i though maybe some of the other craps players would be interested too....
And I check back today ten hours after posting the video and not one single comments in this thread.
But there's a comment in ANOTHER thread saying about how if I can't throw the dice and land them where I want them, how that means dice influence is impossible.
Yeah, that $50 is worth it. I mean the chance of that $50. I mean, yeah, you can do that right? Come on.
It's worth it for you to try, right? Because all we will do is just make fun of you after you bust your ass.
Doesn't that sound WONDERFUL??? FIFTY DOLL HAIRS!!! OMFG!!!!!
Quote: Ahighhttp://youtu.be/bZdEjQxr_5c?t=2m16s
The sound of the dice bouncing during the slow-motion portions is really cool.
I think it's cool that you made this video - correct me if I'm wrong, but you managed to hit 1 of the 2 targets several times, but never hit both simultaneously, is that correct?
I show the entire session at the end from the moment I start recording to the moment where I say I'm done.
I did practice without filming earlier and things were not ideal (both because I wasn't filming and a wardrobe malfunction let's just say).
But yeah, I did not manage to hit both targets a single time. Nor did I expect to be able to in 20 attempts.
If you watch the whole video, I am resigned to failure because the challenge is not something that I can accomplish.
I am just showing how close to the targets I can get with a few warmup throws and then a "let's just do this" approach to firing off five shots and done.
I honestly don't even know why I filmed this except that I thought maybe someone might have something positive to say.
I should know by now this is all just "let's make fun of the village idiot."
I doubt there is a SINGLE OTHER PERSON who would be willing to film themselves doing this challenge. But if there were, I would be very surprised if any of them given only 20 throws could hit both dice on both targets even once.
There's a big gap between that and not being able to influence the dice at all though.
Continue to do what you do, it's fun to follow.
Quote: AhighThe entire session of recording is shown in this video. I didn't even make ten much less twenty throws in this attempt.
I show the entire session at the end from the moment I start recording to the moment where I say I'm done.
I did practice without filming earlier and things were not ideal (both because I wasn't filming and a wardrobe malfunction let's just say).
But yeah, I did not manage to hit both targets a single time. Nor did I expect to be able to in 20 attempts.
If you watch the whole video, I am resigned to failure because the challenge is not something that I can accomplish.
I am just showing how close to the targets I can get with a few warmup throws and then a "let's just do this" approach to firing off five shots and done.
I honestly don't even know why I filmed this except that I thought maybe someone might have something positive to say.
I should know by now this is all just "let's make fun of the village idiot."
I doubt there is a SINGLE OTHER PERSON who would be willing to film themselves doing this challenge. But if there were, I would be very surprised if any of them given only 20 throws could hit both dice on both targets even once.
There's a big gap between that and not being able to influence the dice at all though.
Quote: Ahigh
I doubt there is a SINGLE OTHER PERSON who would be willing to film themselves doing this challenge. But if there were, I would be very surprised if any of them given only 20 throws could hit both dice on both targets even once.
There's a big gap between that and not being able to influence the dice at all though.
I watched the video. Great work, Aaron! My initial interpretation of how difficult this would be was proven to be true. I do agree with Aaron's contention that failure to be able to land the dice on a small defined section of the felt does not necessarily mean there can be no influence imparted. If the dice could be kept on axis no matter where the initial landing point was, and continued on axis after landing, and stayed on axis after hitting the back wall, well... then that would be 'dice control'....
Each new video you post, with your best attempts at repeating a throw, convince me more and more that dice influencing is unattainable, using real casino rules.... Good luck on the effort to prove me wrong!
Quote: Buzzard" If the dice could be kept on axis no matter where the initial landing point was, and continued on axis after landing, and stayed on axis after hitting the back wall, well..." If my Aunt had a mustache, she'd be my Uncle !
I'm starting to believe AHigh will master dice control before you make a useful post.
Quote: SOOPOOI watched the video. Great work, Aaron! My initial interpretation of how difficult this would be was proven to be true. I do agree with Aaron's contention that failure to be able to land the dice on a small defined section of the felt does not necessarily mean there can be no influence imparted. If the dice could be kept on axis no matter where the initial landing point was, and continued on axis after landing, and stayed on axis after hitting the back wall, well... then that would be 'dice control'....
Each new video you post, with your best attempts at repeating a throw, convince me more and more that dice influencing is unattainable, using real casino rules.... Good luck on the effort to prove me wrong!
To me whether it is attainable or not, winning just gambling is much easier to do anyway for someone who hasn't started down either path.
If I were to teach classes, I would absolutely NOT be telling people that after a weekend of practice they can master the control.
That much is a fable.
I may just pull back a bit from participation in this forum and instead of spending time making video, make a very concerted effort to pull money from the tables around town.
Being ridiculed and rejected on here as a result of my efforts just isn't fun at all.
When I go to play at the tables I like to have some FUN.
http://youtu.be/N5m6FrFsi8Y?t=1m2s
Quote: SOOPOOI watched the video. Great work, Aaron! My initial interpretation of how difficult this would be was proven to be true. I do agree with Aaron's contention that failure to be able to land the dice on a small defined section of the felt does not necessarily mean there can be no influence imparted. If the dice could be kept on axis no matter where the initial landing point was, and continued on axis after landing, and stayed on axis after hitting the back wall, well... then that would be 'dice control'....
Each new video you post, with your best attempts at repeating a throw, convince me more and more that dice influencing is unattainable, using real casino rules.... Good luck on the effort to prove me wrong!
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/4/
There is more than one type of theory for how dice control can work.
When I am done, there could be more theory.
It's also possible there could be multiple theories and at least one proof.
Even after a proof, most people are not going to be able to do it and the house, in general, is at most going to be worried about individuals, not the efficacy of the entire game. No different than blackjack.
Right now, I don't know anybody who gets turned away from a craps table because of their reputation for throwing the dice (EG: I make a minimum line bet but I throw so good they hate to let me THROW them during a busy time).
I get watched VERY closely as of the last few months in at least two different places. But until I hit them for a lot more money, they aren't sweating me!
I even tell those places when they watch so close, "I haven't hurt you guys! Why you gotta be like this. I'm only here to have fun!"
But they sure give me a vibe that they are worried. They are bean counting already and the evidence is right on the table, so it's no surprise their radar is in high gear.
Actually I know one guy who isn't welcome at one place, and they told him it was because he takes too long to shoot. And he does.
But I don't think they are worried about anything other than him slowing down the game. Just my opinion. And I consider him a good friend, so hopefully he doesn't mind me saying this.
I have heard Beau Parker is 86'd from one place, but they let him play at the LVH, I have seen it!
Anybody who is so good they won't let you play anymore because of your shooting (NOT YOUR BANKROLL, but your SHOOTING .. IE come in with $100 are they scared, not come in with $100,000) let me know. I mean show me: let's go together.
Until then, none of the casinos are scared of me or anybody else to the best of my knowledge!
And you guys all know I don't hide ANYTHING.
It's interesting, but nothing along these lines proves anything.
I'm merely doing work to affect people's thinking without any benefit to myself whatsoever.
I'm just going to go play for a while, enough of this back and forth with you guys.
Really, there is NOTHING to say, we are all just random number generators.
Dice setting is FALSE HOPE.
I'm not trying to discourage you from posting, because I think having all views is important and I think you add a lot to this forum. But you have to stop expecting so much.
The outright insults are lame and I think the better forum members are avoiding that; hopefully you can tune that out. The skepticism you have to expect, just get over it.
Quote: MrVThe video was a complete waste of time.
Really, there is NOTHING to say, we are all just random number generators.
Dice setting is FALSE HOPE.
Truly insightful. Why I did not have such a realization like this before now is a mystery, but you have OPENED MY EYES oh great one.
My strategies were not all profitable though. My 10x strategies were all losing except for passline only and passline plus one come bet.
