dice control

" I for one recognize that I have no more "ability to perform ideally" while rolling dem bones than does an 80 year old grandma or a 21 year old crack dealer." You forgot to add dice setters.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Ahigh, if you are really into competition and money doesn't matter, I will gladly play against you in a "tournament style" challenge on your live program.

I will do everything I can to influence the dice as best I can (but I am not saying I have any control or influence at all). I will set the dice and attempt a controlled throw on each and every turn.

You will throw as best you can.

each of us will have a set number of throws in the challenge, and each of us can bet our own stacks. whoever has the most chips after their turn wins. No money bet. this is just for the challenge.

Let's say we decide that each of us has 50 throws and each of us will start with 500 in chips. whoever has the most chips after the 50 throws wins. If you bust before the 50 throws are completed you immediately lose.

Would you consider the challenge? of course I will come to you to play during one of your broadcasts.

No money. Bragging rights and exhibition only.

Sounds like a great idea, Alan. That should be tons of fun!

Any casino that has banned "dice setting," at any table, regardless of size, has done so simply to speed up the game and get more decisions per hour, not because they are afraid of "dice influence."

Dice that hit rubber pyramids from 3 feet away are just as random as dice that hit them from 12 feet away.

I cannot STAND playing at a table with a dice setter. Life is short. I could use those minutes wasted elsewhere.

Quote: sodawater

Any casino that has banned "dice setting," at any table, regardless of size, has done so simply to speed up the game and get more decisions per hour, not because they are afraid of "dice influence."

No.

Casinos only ban setting dice at mini-tubs and crapshooter tables. It is a countermeasure against dice influencing. Furthermore, many crapshooter tables are designed with the angled end walls and extra corners as an additional counter measure.

So, both Casinos and table manufacturers are concerned about dice influencing on the shorter tables.

Quote: sodawater

Dice that hit rubber pyramids from 3 feet away are just as random as dice that hit them from 12 feet away.

Whatever.

Quote: sodawater

I cannot STAND playing at a table with a dice setter. Life is short. I could use those minutes wasted elsewhere.

You might not understand what you are actually seeing.

Those with experience set the dice in the blink of an eye. I can do that. Anyone halfway decent is a million times faster than the average "finger snapper."

Quote: tupp

You might not understand what you are actually seeing.

Those with experience set the dice in the blink of an eye. I can do that. Anyone halfway decent is a million times faster than the average "finger snapper."

Despite my natural skepticism, I would love to watch you roll them bones. I'd be betting with you, hoping you could prove me wrong.... I watched Aaron's rolls, both in the casino and on his home table.... He had remarkable control in his ability to have the dice bounce and NOT hit a pyramid.... but they still bounced wildly all over the table. I have yet to see a single human toss the dice in the air, hit the felt then the back wall, and have the result have any reason to be anything but random. But my time in Vegas is by definition 'free time', and I will enjoy watching Nickolay's attempt at control, and would love to play with you and those others who claim the ability to influence dice. I think Vegas Dice Controller, you, and dicesitter all make that claim. If any of you will be in Vegas March 11 -14 I'll make time for you at the casino of your choosing....

I've been quiet. But I'm still here and READY :) Debating on whether or not to wear one of these:



Trying to do a trip up this month too... And meet Ahigh before the big day. It's possible I'll be going up the 156h-16th-17th if anyone is around. We'll see as I am pretty slammed with work...

Quote: sodawater

Any casino that has banned "dice setting," at any table, regardless of size, has done so simply to speed up the game

Any "dice setter" or controlled shooter (real or imaginary) can have the dice "set" in his mind while looking at them as the stickman pushes them to him, and in less than two seconds can set, grip and have the dice ready to be tossed.

the people who delay the game are the random shooters who pick up the dice, shake them in their hands, put them up to their girlfriend's lips for a kiss, take a swig of beer, make some funny comments about little joe, or needing shoes, or a chicken dinner.

Quote: SOOPOO

Despite my natural skepticism, I would love to watch you roll them bones. I'd be betting with you, hoping you could prove me wrong....

I appreciate the kind word, but I am not sure why you would want to watch me throw dice. I am not a dice influencer, and I never claimed to be one.

Quote: SOOPOO

I have yet to see a single human toss the dice in the air, hit the felt then the back wall, and have the result have any reason to be anything but random.

Again, most people wouldn't understand it nor notice it if they saw it, but in this case we are referring to dice influencing.

In the previous case, I was referring to the dice "setters" who annoy sodawater. If you also think that the people who hold up the table when setting the dice are dice influencers, then (with respect) you probably don't understand what you are seeing, and, likely, you hold fundamental misconceptions about the theory and practice of dice influencing.

Furthermore, probably only a very few can effectively influence dice and the edge is slight. So, just because one hasn't noticed it, that doesn't mean that it is absolutely impossible.

Quote: SOOPOO

I think Vegas Dice Controller, you, and dicesitter all make that claim. If any of you will be in Vegas March 11 -14 I'll make time for you at the casino of your choosing....

Thank you for the kind offer, but I am afraid that you misunderstand: I do not claim to be a dice influencer -- I can merely set the dice quickly (like many others).

I appreciate your politeness, and I don't mean to be critical, but I think you should be aware that you seem to misunderstand some of the more basic points on the subject of dice influencing. It might not be a good idea to take a strong stance on a topic about which one is unclear.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Any "dice setter" or controlled shooter (real or imaginary) can have the dice "set" in his mind while looking at them as the stickman pushes them to him, and in less than two seconds can set, grip and have the dice ready to be tossed.

the people who delay the game are the random shooters who pick up the dice, shake them in their hands, put them up to their girlfriend's lips for a kiss, take a swig of beer, make some funny comments about little joe, or needing shoes, or a chicken dinner.

To the contrary, nearly every dice setter I have ever seen takes a long time to find his beloved 3-3 "set." I want to scream at them, "hey morons, the pips add up to 7 on opposite ends!" I have seen dice setters start with the dice on 4-4 and look at every face of both dice, trying to get to 3-3.

They aren't exactly the "quickest" bunch in any sense of the word.

Quote: sodawater

To the contrary, nearly every dice setter I have ever seen takes a long time to find his beloved 3-3 "set." I want to scream at them, "hey morons, the pips add up to 7 on opposite ends!" I have seen dice setters start with the dice on 4-4 and look at every face of both dice, trying to get to 3-3. They aren't exactly the "quickest" bunch in any sense of the word.

I don't think that you understand on what/whom you are waiting.

Quote: tupp

I don't think that you understand on what/whom you are waiting.

Here is my point. Yes, maybe there are "skilled dice setters" (talk about an oxymoron) that have the ability to quickly set the dice. However, the vast majority of people I have played with who set the dice faces before rolling are slow and do not even understand where to find the dice faces they are looking for.

Hence my original point that any casino that has banned setting the dice has done so to speed up the game.

Quote: sodawater

Here is my point. Yes, maybe there are "skilled dice setters" (talk about an oxymoron) that have the ability to quickly set the dice.

No "maybe" about. A lot of people can set dice quickly.

Quote: sodawater

However, the vast majority of people I have played with who set the dice faces before rolling are slow and do not even understand where to find the dice faces they are looking for.

Perhaps those slow ones are the only ones that you notice.

Quote: sodawater

Hence my original point that any casino that has banned setting the dice has done so to speed up the game.

That point is false.

Certainly, management/dealers will give heat to individual drunks who take too long in setting the dice.

However, dice setting is always banned on all mini-tubs and crapshooter tables as a countermeasure to dice influencing -- it has nothing to do with speeding up the game.

By the way, I have never heard of a overall ban on dice setting at a regular craps table

Silverton banned it for about a week. It didn't last as many players refused to play. I'm almost certain their daily drop went down immediately upon the new policy and back to normal when they backed off their policy.

I can still recall Patrick saying, "just pick 'em up and shoot 'em. That's what we do here."

So many people were pissed about that, including my woman. We were already planning never to play there again .. if for no other reason how rude they were about it.

I think Patrick knew it wouldn't last and figured just being extra rude about it would cause the numbers to drop and he was really doing the casino a favor being a real jerk about it.

Anyway, did NOT last. But at least one casino has tried that here.

Quote: Ahigh

Silverton banned it for about a week. It didn't last as many players refused to play.

Here on the east coast it seems about half, maybe somewhat more, of the shooters take a moment with the dice. About half of these are proper dice setters, the other half are following a mere routine. The latter sometimes seem to set the dice but then give themselves away when they toss the dice in a manner that erases all they did.

I think the faster ones are dice setters, the slower ones are following a routine. Some of the latter even have to do some mini-rolling at their station, maybe with all 5 dice, for a bit.

It usually takes me about 2 seconds to set the dice; sometimes longer if I can't seem to find my faces for a second or so.

It wouldnt go over well if they tried to eliminate setting, considering how taking a moment is so widespread.

The thing that slows the game the most is manic proposition betting, in making the bets and paying them off both.

I make my living playing craps and controlling the dice. Only 10 hours per week is required to earn living. Now I'm looking for an opportunity to make some extra cash from roulette using nothing more than the well-known Martingale betting! Never quit believing in these things! Woe to him who does not believe! A soul without faith is an empty soul! Only those who believe will experience the magic of these things. The dice asks for your faith, and if you believe, the dice will land wherever you want and bring you whatever number you want.

Quote: sodawater

To the contrary, nearly every dice setter I have ever seen takes a long time to find his beloved 3-3 "set."

sodawater... those are the people who go online and find threads like this and try it out. It takes about ten minutes of practice at home to learn how to quickly set the dice under the radar of casino personnel and to do it so quickly that no one will even be aware of what you are doing.

But of course, "setting" does not mean "getting" the numbers you want.

And if you want a laugh, when I am at Rincon which has dice thrown to select two cards for its card craps, players actually take the time to set their dice. There is no problem with the dealers or the suits. I didn't the time I played... and I hit 5 points in the fire bet. (LOL)

Quote: Fuengirola2

I make my living playing craps and controlling the dice. Only 10 hours per week is required to earn living. Now I'm looking for an opportunity to make some extra cash from roulette using nothing more than the well-known Martingale betting! Never quit believing in these things. Woe to him who does not believe. A soul without faith is an empty soul. Only those who believe will experience the magic of these things. The dice asks for your faith, and if you believe, the dice will land wherever you want and bring you whatever number you want.

The Pope is resigning: an unprecedented event.

Can this King of the Dice Setters be tapped to fill the exiting pontiff's shoes?

The Lord works in mysterious ways ...

For superstition only, I set the dice every time I throw too. I got heat once from a pit boss (I think it was in Reno, IIRC) once for picking up the dice and dropping them a couple of times before I would take the three seconds to set them. She said that I was "training the dice"...

The reason I set the dice is peer pressure. If I just pick up the dice and throw em, I overhear seasoned craps player telling me I don't know what I am doing, and that feels bad. As well, you want to believe that you are lucky (or unlucky) and that you have influence over something. EVERYONE wants to believe that they have control over something they don't have control over. That belief is very powerful.

Quote: boymimbo

The reason I set the dice is peer pressure. If I just pick up the dice and throw em, I overhear seasoned craps player telling me I don't know what I am doing,

I can understand this. If craps is a random game, then it does no harm to set the dice and to try to influence the dice.
I would rather bet on someone who tries to get a good number than someone who doesn't try. Because it doesn't hurt to try.

Quote: tupp

I appreciate the kind word, but I am not sure why you would want to watch me throw dice. I am not a dice influencer, and I never claimed to be one.



Again, most people wouldn't understand it nor notice it if they saw it, but in this case we are referring to dice influencing.

In the previous case, I was referring to the dice "setters" who annoy sodawater. If you also think that the people who hold up the table when setting the dice are dice influencers, then (with respect) you probably don't understand what you are seeing, and, likely, you hold fundamental misconceptions about the theory and practice of dice influencing.

Furthermore, probably only a very few can effectively influence dice and the edge is slight. So, just because one hasn't noticed it, that doesn't mean that it is absolutely impossible.



Thank you for the kind offer, but I am afraid that you misunderstand: I do not claim to be a dice influencer -- I can merely set the dice quickly (like many others).

I appreciate your politeness, and I don't mean to be critical, but I think you should be aware that you seem to misunderstand some of the more basic points on the subject of dice influencing. It might not be a good idea to take a strong stance on a topic about which one is unclear.

I guess I appreciate your politeness too! Of course I understand that most people who 'set the dice' would not claim to be 'dice influencers'. I fully understand the theory of 'dice influencing', I just believe it to be 100% false. I am not unclear at all. It is quite clear to me that it cannot be done, again... being clear that the dice will be tossed in the air, hit the felt, and then the back wall. And I guess I have not read carefully enough... you being a fervent supporter of the possibility of 'dice influencing' caused me to believe that you claimed to be one. Anyway, I will get to see two others-- who claim to have that ability--- in action when I am in Vegas. And if you want to 'set the dice' when I'm in town, let me know....

Quote: Fuengirola2

I make my living playing craps and controlling the dice. Only 10 hours per week is required to earn living. Now I'm looking for an opportunity to make some extra cash from roulette using nothing more than the well-known Martingale betting! Never quit believing in these things! Woe to him who does not believe! A soul without faith is an empty soul! Only those who believe will experience the magic of these things. The dice asks for your faith, and if you believe, the dice will land wherever you want and bring you whatever number you want.

I can tell you spent at least ten seconds reading what others had to say before you categorized the discussion. Good for you! Now start and argument and call someone a name and get banned.

You may not be new to watching idiots trying to employ systems at the table. But you're new here. Good luck to you!

Quote: SOOPOO

I fully understand the theory of 'dice influencing', I just believe it to be 100% false. I am not unclear at all. It is quite clear to me that it cannot be done, again... being clear that the dice will be tossed in the air, hit the felt, and then the back wall.

How can you be so sure?

Earlier in this thread, you said, "I have yet to see a single human toss the dice in the air, hit the felt then the back wall, and have the result have any reason to be anything but random." How do you know that the result is random? Are you logging all of the rolls of every shooter you see and charting their ratios of non-loss rolls to losing rolls?

If one expects to judge a person's skill from the result of a single roll, that indicates fundamental ignorance on the theory/practice of dice influencing.

In addition, casinos are not so sure on the impossibility of dice influencing. Even with the dice falling as you describe, dice setting is universally prohibited at small mini-tubs and crapshooter tables, as a countermeasure to dice influencing. Perhaps you could convince them that they have no need to worry, as dice influencing is 100% false as long as the dice are tossed in the air, hit the felt and then the back wall.

Incidentally, there are two other ways that the dice can fall (other than the one you mentioned) that abide by the rules.

Quote: SOOPOO

And if you want to 'set the dice' when I'm in town, let me know....

Thank you for the invitation. I would love to do so, but I don't think that I will be in Vegas on the dates you are there.

SOOPOO: What about dice that hit the back wall first, then hit the felt?

Quote: tupp

In addition, casinos are not so sure on the impossibility of dice influencing. Even with the dice falling as you describe, dice setting is universally prohibited at small mini-tubs and crapshooter tables, as a countermeasure to dice influencing. Perhaps you could convince them that they have no need to worry, as you believe that dice influencing is 100% false, as long as the dice are tossed in the air, hit the felt and then the back wall.

One has to wonder whether they adopted those countermeasures based on empirical or anecdotal evidence.

Frankly, I suspect the latter.

It is unlikely that the casinos have captured on film and then analyzed and dissected the consistent success of a d. i., someone who clearly and obviously plays with such an advantage that the casinos are forced to adopt countermeasures.

No, I think they do what they do simply because they have read the brags of d.i.'s in books and on these boards from guys who claim they are achieving a true advantage via d. i.

Aaron,
Go to Carson City...$1 tables, and signs stating explicitly, "No setting/arranging the dice."
Apparently the idea is it slows the game down too much on a $1 crap game..

Quote: MrV

One has to wonder whether they adopted those countermeasures based on empirical or anecdotal evidence. Frankly, I suspect the latter.
It is unlikely that the casinos have captured on film and then analyzed and dissected the consistent success of a d. i., someone who clearly and obviously plays with such an advantage that the casinos are forced to adopt countermeasures

I know that the casinos allowed dice setting on such tables for a brief period. Gee, I wonder why they would subsequently prohibit it.

By the way, one is also not allowed to lean toward the back wall when shooting, as an additional countermeasure.

Quote: MrV

No, I think they do what they do simply because they have read the brags of d.i.'s in books and on these boards from guys who claim they are achieving a true advantage via d. i.

Perhaps you could convince them to lift those restrictions, as they have nothing to worry about.

The $1 games are more likely to have a person come in and randomly stop for a moment and play at the table max and never come back.

That's the casino's worst fear even more than a dice setter.

A $1 game probably only has a $500 max bet. And if somebody comes in and gets $4,000 out on the table and wins $5,000 to $10,000 it could take all their profit for the last few days or weeks, maybe even months if it doesn't get much action.

I would be willing to bet there was a time or two that one such somebody did this and looked like his dice setting was paying off, and the casinos just got scared.

But that would just be a guess on my part.

The slowest table I know is Joker's Wild.

" Perhaps you could convince them to lift those restrictions, as they have nothing to worry about. "

But casinos want players to believe in dice setting. Or as W C Fields was fond of saying
" It's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money. "

Are there skilled DI's or what ever you want to call them out there?

Well lets put it this way, there are shooters that just get lucky when they have the dice, some of these are what everybody calls random rollers take Pat DeMauro, she holds the record roll of 154 rolls before she 7 out! Now they call me a DI and its a term that I take lossely, because I can 't have major rolls every time I go into a casino, some times I have a lot of PSO's or short rolls and there are days that I should have stayed in bed.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1901663,00.html#ixzz1Xh4xOw5k


Most of the times when I'm shooting I can figure out what is happening with my shooting and bring it back to the point were I can make money at it. Now when I'm shooting most players think that I just getting lucky, they have no problem putting their bets right where I've been landing my dice on every shot. The reason they are at the table is because they heard so fool screaming every time I hit a point they had money on. I started to shoot when there was nobody on the table.
Most real DI's that I know do the same thing, they play when they can find an empty table, they don't play on full tables, why would they? They want the dice in their hand, because they spend all there spare time practicing what they do.

Now for Ahigh's benefit or anybody else that doesn't understand my use of what I call the “So-Called DI's.”
They stop the game every time they get the dice back, trying to set the dice!
They take forever to get in position to make their shot!
They only shoot from SR1 or SL1.
They make hop bets that they aren't hitting!
They make prop bets that they aren't hitting!
They have way to many short rolls.
Some times after going through doing every thing from setting the dice to the point where they are going to make their shot, they then shake the dice before they shoot!
These are also the guys that never practice a thing about what they are doing.
They might have a practice rig at home but the only time they ever use it is a week before they come to some place like Vegas!

Your real DI's if they are locals will not try to kill the casinos, they want to play the game the next day and the day afterwards. If they are from out of town they will limit what they take off a table, by walking away after they have one good roll and moving on to the next casino.The main reason that happens is by the time they are done rolling the table that they started on is now full and its going to take forever to get the dice back in there hand, if the table doesn't fill up they might stay for one more roll to see if they can make it happen again.

Since they coined the word DI or what ever you want to call someone that sets the dice, the casinos have been doing everything they can to stop anybody that sets they dice, because of what I call the “Great Fiction Writers.” Now for Ahigh's benefit or anybody else that doesn't understand my use of what I call the “Great Fiction Writers.”

These guys are what caused all the changes that the casinos have done to come about to their tables we all play on and to how we are all treated. They write how they take hundreds of thousands of dollars off the tables every year! My favorite one was writing for years that he had a SRR of 28 up in till a few months ago, he vigorusly defended that claim to his fame for years and has only admitted that he must have made a mistake to what he wrote. His way of back pedaling his way out of his claim over on Heavy's board!

Quote:

Heavy

MP - since the SRR of 28 thing continues to come up - both from Irish and Super Rick - why don't you addressa this. Was the 28 SRR a result of short-term variance in your tracking or was it a pure bullshit number you came up with to make for a better post? Like Irish and SR, I think a claim of a long run SRR in that range is pretty hard to believe.
MP's reply

Quote:

MP

There's no doubt that the SRR-28 thing was a prime example of using too few samples that were drawn only from hands that exceeded the 5-count.

Big mistake? Absolutely!

Quote:

Then you have Heavy's post:

Heavy

MP - Your posts are starting to look like something from the Rainbow Coalition. No, that was not a racial joke. Just saying.

I appreciate your comment regarding the SRR of 29 and roll sample size . . . but after the 5 count? Surely you have not been sipping from the GTC Kool Aid pitcher.

Here is the link to that great peice of what I say is fiction.

http://www.dicesetter.com/mp/dmad86improve.htm

Then there is this great piece of writing, found in the crapshooting bible:

Page 255

Hands :18

Rolls:8,12,10,4,27,18,41,21,9,30,40,39,6,5,32,45,3 2,17 and players walk away from his table, that is what is in the book, would you walk away?

Now here is my question for every guy that has been posting on this thread, do you believe this to be a true story, or was it just a great piece of fiction in the crapshooting bible?

Now just for you Ahigh, I know that you will have something to write about what I just wrote, and if you tell the world that you don't think these little pieces of what I'm saying is fiction, is fiction! I have a few more things that everybody can focus on! As this post got to long already I will make it in two part's.

Now the reason why everybody is reading this thread, is because of all the BS that is written by these great fiction writers, in my opinion!

well a couple of things.

Dice sitting is not universally banned on tubs......we play on them all the time.There is one excellent tub
in vegas open in warmer months by a pool.

There are alot of reasons some casino's dont want dice sitting, first some beleive it works, second some think it slows the
game down, some have seen dice teams come through and be hot and make alot of money.

We had that happen in Wisconsin, a team came through and took some money from a small casino.... after that they banned
any type of dice setting..... period. I spoke with them and showed them how they actually make money on dice sitting and
they understood, but it stayed closed......for 2 years.... Then they woke up when the dealers were making no tips, the table sat
empty, most of the gaming tables were empty.

It was not because there were alot of dicesitters.... there were only 2 really, but because of the over-all affect, I quit going, so
my wife did not go, my son did not go, My wife's aunt or my mother would ride with us now and then, my playing partners quit going,'
their wives and friends and on and on.

Now they are the most friendly place around, they actually cheer for you to do well and since we always tip on our pass line bets
when throwing, the crew keeps their own tips, so they are happy to see us. The crew also makes pretty darn good money on hardway
bets now and then.

they understand that when table limits are low a person like me may make more than i lose, but alot of other players
lose more than they make..... the more people there, the better it is for the casino..

Dicesitting is good for you,, ,and good for the casino

dicesitter