REALLY blew out my bankroll

Wow what jerks. Considering your reaction to losing the craps bankroll though, I probably wouldn't recommend going back to Vegas.
:(

Who is being a jerk? I can guarantee that Teddys will have at least one person in Ohio who has his back, should he decide to come back here and stay.

deleted

I think you're right, I beg your pardon, Tringlomane.

Quote: EvenBob

Hmm, a career in law or sitting in front of a
VP machine for hours a day. Gee, thats a
tough one...

+1. This was expressed to Teddy after probably too many Newcastle drafts. He has too much to offer society to consider full-time gambling.

Keep your chin up Teddys. I think Las Vegas was probably a burn on you. Time to get some discipline and a better job.

Teddys, this is a bump in the road.

I would definitely do what makes your chances of passing the Ohio bar as high as possible. Only you know what that will be. You can't study all day. I took a summer to study for the CPA exam the summer between my junior and senior year at UCLA (easier than the bar I am sure) and I needed to take breaks. Can you be disciplined to study for 3-4 hours, play some comp advantaged VP for 2-3 hours than go back and hit the books for another 3-4 hours? It is a long day of mental exercise, but my guess is that 6-8 hours of studying for the bar with 2-3 hours of play time, could be productive particularly if you are earning some meal comps to feed yourself along the way.

Whoever else said that you will know in your gut what to do, is correct. Your gut will tell you what to do. I would not make a snap decision to leave Vegas just because you have the trip back for the Bar Exam Interview (tomorrow?). Come back to Vegas as scheduled and ponder your plan for passing the bar for a couple of days, then you will make the right decision for you.

Teddy - as an attorney, my advice, if you truly want to be an attorney, is to spend at least 8-10 hours a day studying for the bar exam. If Ohio uses the MBE, then you should be taking a PMBR course and do EVERY single question in every practice book they give you. You can really improve your chances of passing the bar by getting a high MBE score.
I am available should you seek advice.

As a fellow casino patron, I know I could not study for the bar exam if I was in Vegas...just my two cents.

Quote: aceofspades

Teddy - as an attorney, my advice, if you truly want to be an attorney.

My former attorney is sitting in prison on a felony
tax evasion charge. He was disbarred upon conviction
and can only be reinstated by passing the bar again.
He's been out of law school for 30 years, so he'd have
to go back. And even after they he did all that, there's
little chance he'd get his license back. They seldom
give a felon a license again. F Lee Baily has tried again
and again and he finally gave up.

Isn't Law the same as Accounting; you don't need to be a CPA, or passed the bar, if you are working as a corporate accountant or attorney?

Sorry to hear the news teddys. Sounds like it didn't catch you totally off guard and that you have options. People say things happen for a reason. I am not so sure about that. What I am sure of is things DO happen. Often these things provide you with a new opportunity, a new door to open that you may not have seen before. Weigh your options, look to your heart and find happiness.

Quote: EvenBob

there's little chance he'd get his license back. They seldom give a felon a license again.

One of my colleagues was convicted of felony assault.

He was disbarred, applied again after five years, passed the bar, and resumed practicing law.

It is not really that unusual.

Quote: MrV

It is not really that unusual.

It is in MI. What state was this in? Tell
F Lee Baily its not unusual.

Quote: EvenBob

It is in MI. What state was this in? Tell
F Lee Baily its not unusual.

Not Michigan, not California.

Pac NW.

Quote: MrV

Not Michigan, not California.

Pac NW.

No doubt, the Lib capital. Try that anywhere back east, even
NY. Felon lawyers seldom get reinstated. Other lawyers hate
them for getting caught. Thats not supposed to happen.

Some points to ponder......
1. Teddy is just like thousands of recent law school graduates, in a sort of limbo until they pass the bar. My ex got a job immediately after graduation at a small law firm near where my Anesthesia residency was, paying very little. The day she passed the bar her salary doubled. She was doing the exact same work before and after passing the bar.
2. Moving back to Ohio does NOT solve the gambling problem. It seems like all the major cities there are getting casino gambling, just obviously not in the concentration of Las Vegas. However, at least until you pass the bar, I would not return to Vegas to live the 'homeless' lifestyle. After you pass the bar and are more marketable, then you can look at the plusses and minuses.
3. 100% agree with Aces about taking preparatory course(s). You are at a disadvantage against those that do, if you do not.

Quote: Mission146

I can guarantee that Teddys will have at least one person in Ohio who has his back, should he decide to come back here and stay.

Me too.

It will be entertaining to watch the process as Teddy finds his way. Maybe we will get to say "I knew that guy in real life" when the movie comes out.

Quote: EvenBob

My former attorney is sitting in prison on a felony
tax evasion charge. He was disbarred upon conviction
and can only be reinstated by passing the bar again.
He's been out of law school for 30 years, so he'd have
to go back. And even after they he did all that, there's
little chance he'd get his license back. They seldom
give a felon a license again. F Lee Baily has tried again
and again and he finally gave up.

He wouldn't have to go back to school.

Quote: EvenBob

No doubt, the Lib capital. Try that anywhere back east, even
NY. Felon lawyers seldom get reinstated. Other lawyers hate
them for getting caught. Thats not supposed to happen.

Oooooh, a subtle lawyer joke.

*golf clap*

FWIW, Bailey's attempts to be reinstated probably were rejected because the matter he got in trouble over involved dishonesty and alleged misuse / misappropriation of client funds (and in the process he seemingly tried to screw the Feds).

The case I referred to involved a guy who, upon discovering his girl friend with another man, pulled a gun and threatened them with it: no shots were fired.

I suppose the bar is more willing to forgive a truly repentent felon whose crime was committed in "the heat of passion" than a lawyer who apparently misappropriated funds, which act required extensive planning and deliberation.

Regardless, Bailey's legal career shows he was one hell of an attorney.

Teddy, it's been almost a year since your blowout. How has
your life changed since then, do you miss the vagabond
Vegas lifestyle? I just listened to you on the radio show
again. http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2013/01/gambling-with-edge-guest-ted-straton.html

I liked your random acts of kindness. I don't drink when I
gamble, but now I'm getting free vodka on the rocks when
I'm downtown, and give it to the first homeless guy I see
on Fremont. Have yet to be turned down, they all drink
apparently.

Yeah I know I asked this on your recent post but now I just went through 23 pages and kind of see how everything unfolded. Hope everything has worked out and will continue to work out now that you have the new job.

Going to be trying myself soon so hopefully I can stay as close to the optimal goal as possible. If this was Oregon Trail, I would be starting as the poor farmer and not as the banker from Boston so I have a much narrower margin for error. Going to be nickel specials for a while until I get to the level where I can pound the 100% JoB.

Quote: thecesspit

It's possible to win at craps if you get lucky. Do a simple test on a million rolls at x5 odds, and you'll see a percentage of players will end up in the positive.

Quite the thread and my first time reading. This post struck me though.

Cesspit, it's possible to win at ANY game if you get lucky, whether it's with a slight counting edge in BJ, those mind-altering positive video poker games, the slot progressives I mainly play, or whatever. I mean, no one ever won anything without the luck of the dice roll, a lucky bounce of the ball, or the luck of the draw. Teddys could have just as easily won, only his luck was very bad. What I took out of his confession was that no one just moves to Vegas and expects to use the casinos as their own personal ATM's, period. And $10k is hardly the bankroll to try such a thing with.

I suspect teddy got too caught up in all that optimal play talk and people claiming to be making a living gambling etc., then somehow put 2+2 together and got 5. Sounds great from afar, doesn't it? I felt awful when I read his story, but he is not 100% to blame here.

It's all good, Teddys is back in Ohio and has a great job!

Was there ever any doubt?

Better to be lucky in life than lucky in gambling. Let's hope that's what's happening with Teddy.

I won't blow out my bankroll but I am down just over 12 max bets for this month - all 10 days of it. As Lita Ford sings in her song, "Kiss Me Deadly", it ain't no big thing. I play blackjack and the math is on my side. Come on math! Math? Math?

Who wants to be the first to say it's because I don't tip? Not to worry, it's been a good year even if it goes out with a fizzle.

I keep hearing of bankroll talk and managing your BR, as if its going to grow. I don't know why, but when I hear the term bankroll, I think of it as a tool you need to make a profit while playing something you believe you have an edge at. In most cases you should know if you have an edge or not. I just cant figure out out why anyone would want to put together a BR to play a negative EV game? I'm not saying people should not gamble or have fun playing some -EV games occasionally if you have a few extra bucks, but why do people make a bankroll for it? Why not use your entertainment or vacation money to gamble?

If someone has a bankroll to gamble with on -EV games then there is no such thing as over betting your bankroll, It will all end up the same in the end.

Quote: AxelWolf

I keep hearing of bankroll talk and managing your BR, as if its going to grow. I don't know why, but when I hear the term bankroll, I think of it as a tool you need to make a profit while playing something you believe you have an edge at. In most cases you should know if you have an edge or not. I just cant figure out out why anyone would want to put together a BR to play a negative EV game? I'm not saying people should not gamble or have fun playing some -EV games occasionally if you have a few extra bucks, but why do people make a bankroll for it? Why not use your entertainment or vacation money to gamble?

If someone has a bankroll to gamble with on -EV games then there is no such thing as over betting your bankroll, It will all end up the same in the end.

Time. You may want your bankroll to last longer than two bad rolls. You may want to play for days not hours. You may be trying to slow burn the bank roll in the search for comps. There's good reasons to understand how long you might survive at game X, as well as your swings and probabilities of winning over your trip.

So your entertainment money IS your bankroll.

I think it's really just about budgeting. You have your entertainment budget, and assuming you do something besides gamble, gambling is part of that entertainment budget. For this reason, creating a bankroll is simply allocating a certain dollar amount of your funds to your entertainment in terms of gambling.

Quote: thecesspit

Time. You may want your bankroll to last longer than two bad rolls. You may want to play for days not hours. You may be trying to slow burn the bank roll in the search for comps. There's good reasons to understand how long you might survive at game X, as well as your swings and probabilities of winning over your trip.

So your entertainment money IS your bankroll.

I get all of that. I just think having a bankroll for -EV games is silly. I see where people lose their caps bankroll and then work and save to get one back. I think the term Bankroll should be reserved for assumed +EV situations. A little old lady saying she has a live keno Bankroll seems silly.

Quote: 1BB

I won't blow out my bankroll but I am down just over 12 max bets for this month - all 10 days of it. As Lita Ford sings in her song, "Kiss Me Deadly", it ain't no big thing. I play blackjack and the math is on my side. Come on math! Math? Math?

Who wants to be the first to say it's because I don't tip? Not to worry, it's been a good year even if it goes out with a fizzle.

It's because you don't tip! :)

Quote: AxelWolf

I get all of that. I just think having a bankroll for -EV games is silly. I see where people lose their caps bankroll and then work and save to get one back. I think the term Bankroll should be reserved for assumed +EV situations. A little old lady saying she has a live keno Bankroll seems silly.

The +EV gambler can do exactly the same if they blow out their bank roll. Bank rolls can be topped up by external sources.. why not? Its never struck me as an AP only term.

Quote: AxelWolf

I think the term Bankroll should be reserved for assumed +EV situations. A little old lady saying she has a live keno Bankroll seems silly.

It's all semantics. "Bankroll" is easier to say than "The money I use for -EV games".

Like in tennis, the "chalk" they use these days isn't actually chalk. It's titanium dioxide. But players still say "The ball hit the chalk!" Not "The ball hit the titanium dioxide!"

So for the amount of time teddy played this negative ev game with his bankroll, are you saying his results would have been on the plus side if he had just 2% more ev? If so, that's a wet dream to me. He was simply unlucky.

Well, how much did he play? Suppose he were playing the same game same bets, but every roll, win or lose, for every $5 anywhere on the table, he got a lovely embossed portrait of Woodrow Wilson. How much would he have then? $200 theoretical loss means $14000 total on the pass line - throw in 5x odds on two-thirds of hands, and that comes to about $60k total bet. So he'd still have lost, but he'd have lost a thousand dollars less.

Yes, you can get unlucky with a positive expected value, but you need to be more unlucky to lose. When people talk about "bankroll," they're usually talking about the amount that they won't lose unless very unlucky indeed.

Quote: tournamentking

So for the amount of time teddy played this negative ev game with his bankroll, are you saying his results would have been on the plus side if he had just 2% more ev? If so, that's a wet dream to me. He was simply unlucky.

i agree, just unlucky.. sounds like a -2 sigma story. he could of as easily won 5 figures minus $200.

the $200 dollars pays for instant gratification of gambiling for the range of +/- $10,000 and the time people watching around the craps table.

at the local casinos around here you can easily get more values in free plays playing craps, the lowest monthly promo is a match play worth $2.50 , if you play less than 37 rolls (an hour?) you're in positive territory. craps is such an easy game that you can get totally plastered and still play perfectly. so drink comps on a $5 table in LV should easilly get you to zero or positve expectation. after that its all varriance.

Quote: EvenBob

Teddy, it's been almost a year since your blowout. How has
your life changed since then, do you miss the vagabond
Vegas lifestyle? I just listened to you on the radio show
again. http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2013/01/gambling-with-edge-guest-ted-straton.html

I liked your random acts of kindness. I don't drink when I
gamble, but now I'm getting free vodka on the rocks when
I'm downtown, and give it to the first homeless guy I see
on Fremont. Have yet to be turned down, they all drink
apparently.

Thanks, Bob, for the follow-up. It's been a very, very tough year for me. After I left Vegas and came back to Ohio, I struggled (and am still struggling) with anxiety and depression. Extended spates of unemployment don't help. I've actually been in therapy and on psychiatric meds for the first time in a long time.

I'd damn well like to hope I learned my lesson. You never know when you are going to go on tilt; that is the scary thing about being around gambling/casinos for extended periods of time. Even though I pretty much memorized the Wizard's site, I still went off the deep end. It's quite terrifying.

I'm actually in not such a bad state. Financially, I'm in a good spot. I just have to get my mind right. I passed the bar exam and am a licensed lawyer and notary in Ohio, so I'm trying to make a go at that, but it has been a struggle, motivation-wise and combined with a bad legal market. I'm really trying to be more careerist and professional, rather than a gambling vagabond. I truly feel like I'm not meant to live that lifestyle.

Hope that didn't sound too depressing. Each day is better than the next.

Have you given any thought to being a gaming lawyer? Seems like you are leaps and bounds above lawyers when it comes to gambling issues.

To be honest I'm just trying to find cheap legal help since I am cheap lol

Quote: teddys

Each day is better than the next.

Ouch, Teddy, hope all is indeed getting better. I'm sorry to hear this, like many others here I took an interest in your tales. It's interesting when somebody is playing with fire and getting away with it, but a bummer to find out the fire got you after all.

Sincerely, I hope the best for you. I don't really comprehend clinical-level Depression too much [I mean, we all feel "sad" sometimes, doesn't mean squat]. Your day will come, buddy, believe me, you have way too much on the ball. Happy days will be here again someday for the country too, and someone with your talents will be in demand.

Quote: odiousgambit

Ouch, Teddy, hope all is indeed getting better. I'm sorry to hear this, like many others here I took an interest in your tales. It's interesting when somebody is playing with fire and getting away with it, but a bummer to find out the fire got you after all.

Sincerely, I hope the best for you. I don't really comprehend clinical-level Depression too much [I mean, we all feel "sad" sometimes, doesn't mean squat]. Your day will come, buddy, believe me, you have way too much on the ball. Happy days will be here again someday for the country too, and someone with your talents will be in demand.

Thanks, OG. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Your life can be objectively good and fine, and you just feel like crap regardless. Instead of feeling sad "sometimes," I feel happy "sometimes." I don't know; perhaps it has something to do with inability to transition into adulthood, general social awkwardness -- all things I can explore with my therapist ... lol.

All I know is I've been satisfied with myself my whole life and now I'm not. And that's hard to take.

Quote: teddys

Even though I pretty much memorized the Wizard's site, I still went off the deep end. It's quite terrifying.

Having a good bet is only half the battle; you still must get lucky to WIN that good bet. (Because after all, even the best of bets in a casino, are still 50/50 coin-flips)

Quote: teddys

Quote: odiousgambit

Ouch, Teddy, hope all is indeed getting better. I'm sorry to hear this, like many others here I took an interest in your tales. It's interesting when somebody is playing with fire and getting away with it, but a bummer to find out the fire got you after all.

Sincerely, I hope the best for you. I don't really comprehend clinical-level Depression too much [I mean, we all feel "sad" sometimes, doesn't mean squat]. Your day will come, buddy, believe me, you have way too much on the ball. Happy days will be here again someday for the country too, and someone with your talents will be in demand.

Thanks, OG. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Your life can be objectively good and fine, and you just feel like crap regardless. Instead of feeling sad "sometimes," I feel happy "sometimes." I don't know; perhaps it has something to do with inability to transition into adulthood, general social awkwardness -- all things I can explore with my therapist ... lol.

All I know is I've been satisfied with myself my whole life and now I'm not. And that's hard to take.

I'm not sure anything gets accomplished by satisfied people. That dissatisfaction, coupled with the will to do something about "it", whatever it might be, is one of the greatest motivators for invention, creation, and change. Sometimes it takes going down into the pit for a while and floundering before you get fed up with your self-pity or whatever the issue is and take steps to change it, whether tackling it directly, or taking a sideways leap into something else you've always wondered about or were interested in but never seriously pursued. Been there, done that, Teddy, and the biggest thing I learned is that it's all up to you when or if that happens. The smallest step towards daylight matters when you're in the gloom. Take just a few, and pretty soon you're moving again with purpose and self-respect. You're just on the edge of great accomplishment right now, in recognizing you're dissatisfied, having all the tools to change your world at hand, and all that's left is your decision to do it. You were courageous enough to go on Jeopardy!; you were courageous enough to go to law school; so you know you have the stones to get on with your life now.

Quote: djatc

To be honest I'm just trying to find cheap legal help since I am cheap lol

So what kinda trouble did you get yourself into? ;)

Just curious as to know what your daily goal was. I just started this madness (10x max odds) and so far have gotten my goal of netting at least four points/come bets for the past three days. I am using 2000 units of PL bets as a bankroll and it seems that you did too. I ran this simulation 25 times on this websiteand busted out only once. All the other times I was up at least my goal at one point during session and I'm hoping I can avoid the so called "rate of ruin" before I double up my bankroll. Can one of you kind math guys help me figure out what my rate of ruin is? Also, if you could let me know what your session goal was. I know this post is old, but I thought maybe you're still on and thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Quote: ghettoshecky

Just curious as to know what your daily goal was. I just started this madness (10x max odds) and so far have gotten my goal of netting at least four points/come bets for the past three days. I am using 2000 units of PL bets as a bankroll and it seems that you did too. I ran this simulation 25 times on this website http://www.crapsforward.com/, and busted out only once. All the other times I was up at least my goal at one point during session and I'm hoping I can avoid the so called "rate of ruin" before I double up my bankroll. Can one of you kind math guys help me figure out what my rate of ruin is? Also, if you could let me know what your session goal was. I know this post is old, but I thought maybe you're still on and thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.

I had no goal besides self-destructive behavior.

I play craps for entertainment and to lose money.

Quote: teddys

I had no goal besides self-destructive behavior.
I play craps for entertainment and to lose money.

Well then, carry on. It's nice when a
guy has no doubts about what his
motives for gambling are..

At least you're honest about it and
have no delusions. You're 80% on
your way to recovery, whatever
that means..

Quote: teddys

I had no goal besides self-destructive behavior.

I play craps for entertainment and to lose money.

So are you saying you didn't have a set goal for the day and the house HE finally caught up to you, or are you being facetious because craps is a terrible game? I am really sorry you lost, but I lost five figures as well in craps trying stupid different strategies. Hence this will probably be my last hurrah till 2016 if I bust out. I was just curious if you had any pointers, but thanks anyways.

-------------------------------------
Quote 7craps:

"...A computer can NEVER, 100% of the time, produce craps numbers the same as they are on a real craps table.
That is because some dice rolls are less random than others.
Right?

Those short rolls only 3 feet and the stick calls it a roll is as random as when both dice go all the way down and hit the wall?
Dice hitting objects other than the far wall have to be less random."
--------------------------------------
Quote thecesspit:

"Really? I'm pretty sure I could produce a string of craps rolls from a live table and a string from a decent computer RNG and you'd not be able to tell the difference.
I hear this all the time "a computer RNG is nothing like reality", but I'm yet to be shown that this is any way true. Just a lot of hand waving about the true nature of randomness..."
--------------------------------------
Quote: thecesspit It's possible to win at craps if you get lucky. Do a simple test on a million rolls at x5 odds, and you'll see a percentage of players will end up in the positive.


Yep, even over long periods of time, proved this many times using Wincraps, even with merely 3x4x5x. With 10x or more, simulation shows Lifetime winners, Super Lifetime even [enduring more rolls than humanly possible]. It's funny, though, that we only seem to hear disaster stories at craps. I think one reason is we all underestimate the bankroll needed for the style of play we have.

--------------------------------------
AlanMendelson:
Excuse me, but how do you have a simulation that runs a negative expectation game to show anything but a loss??

And with a bigger bankroll, doesn't that simply mean a bigger loss on a negative expectation game?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, let me say that this is one of the most remarkable and honest threads that I have ever seen on a craps board...Congrats to Teddy and boymimbo for your forthcoming, honest and remarkable initial posts...best wishes and good luck to you both...

Since approximately 1974 i have a record of 1,685,697 dice trials rolled out --with immense fun -- one-at-a-time. The first 90,000 or so of these were done with casino dice rolled into a felt lined box with care taken to insure the rolls were random. These filled 10-1/2 spiral notebooks. With the advent of personal computers and Wincraps record keeping became by vast degrees easier and more efficient and these rolls migrated there...a very ragged notebook 11 is now nearly filled...

I have accurate and honest records of live craps sessions going back to 2001. Gamblers being notoriously optimistic about losses these live records are ultra conservative, studiously NOT in my favor (tracked in $100 increments and rounded as indicated)...Now in retirement I shoot craps nearly every day. This is too much many of you will correctly agree but it is what I like to do and have the time now and wherewithal to do so...In 2003 a local casino opened a craps table and thus the vast majority of the live stats are since then. "Sessions" is not quite the right term as to how 'wins-losses-ties' have been tracked. Probably 'episodes' is a better description as this would vary from what one commonly calls a session to one day of sessions at the local rail to a trip to a non local casino, eg a 4 day vegas trip would be tracked as one episode as a matter of sheer convenience and ease...These live episodes total 1,091.

>>>>>>>>>>>>"...A computer can NEVER, 100% of the time, produce craps numbers the same as they are on a real craps table.
That is because some dice rolls are less random than others. <<<<<<<<

In what way?

>>>>>>>>>>>>Those short rolls only 3 feet and the stick calls it a roll is as random as when both dice go all the way down and hit the wall?
Dice hitting objects other than the far wall have to be less random." <<<<<<<<<

Really? How? I suppose if the 3 foot roll was controlled-slid-in an INTENTIONAL way, you might have a case...but assuming no attempt at manipulation and dice "hitting objects" how could these rolls be anything OTHER THAN random? Like the dice hitting the back wall the roll is as likely to favor you as not...

After applying my Tough Craps betting strategy to over 1-1/2 million wincraps rolls and playing 1,091 craps games live I cannot tell one ounce of difference between the play...Wincraps and live play are indistinguishable, that is to say the dice are equally vicious and suck equally...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>It's possible to win at craps if you get lucky. Do a simple test on a million rolls at x5 odds, and you'll see a percentage of players will end up in the positive.

Yep, even over long periods of time, proved this many times using Wincraps, even with merely 3x4x5x. With 10x or more, simulation shows Lifetime winners, Super Lifetime even [enduring more rolls than humanly possible]. It's funny, though, that we only seem to hear disaster stories at craps. I think one reason is we all underestimate the bankroll needed for the style of play we have. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

After 1,000,051 rolls --as mentioned all but the first 90k or so done on wincraps and all rolled out one-at-a-time -- the Tough Craps player was ahead + $21,181...this stat is roughly 12 years old now and a mathhead on a long ago craps board weighed in ---if I recall correctly---that about 11% of players would be ahead after a million rolls playing tough...this does seem high and counterintuitive that so many--some, yes, of course--could be ahead after more than a few lifetimes of play, but my own simulated experience here is congruent with it...It might be noted that this million rolls was a loser too save for one remarkable winning session of $31,000. This happened early on. The goal is to win HUGE...no,no,no,no,no...i mean HUGE; there is no win limit which means you are almost always losing...it is ever goatcabin's balloon...Part of the strategy is to find the lowest possible minimum line bet and at the time this was 25 CENTS-"quarter craps". (For strategic purposes Tough Craps is concerned ONLY with the free odds bet [or other free bets such as free 4/10 available some places]; the required pass/come, bets are simply vigorish and are ALWAYS the lowest possible to get your desired odds...back in the quarter craps day most places would allow 3 units to "look like" 5 for the purposes of odds on the 6 & 8; thus in practical reality the minimum bet at this game was 75 cents...+$31,000 starting out at 75 cents; don't ever expect to see something like that again, duh)...but now the next 685,646 (& counting) rolls look more like we would all expect: -$45,902...

My live play too gives some evidence that you don't have to lose over long periods, at least if you play tough (there are ONLY TWO known players IN THE WORLD who play tough EXCLUSIVELY)...Indeed live play in non-local casinos dating back to 2001 still shows a positive +$11,900 W35 L42 T5 (a very anomalous w/l record due to the small sample size; expected winning pct is closer to 32% playing the RELENTLESSLY progressive betting strategy utilized here;)...As for the local stats, a high water mark of +$10,900 was attained almost exactly 3 years after the rail opened and after 1,761 HOURS of play, a "long haul" by most's reckoning, no? The Tough Craps player remained ahead for over 5 years and 3,151 hours of play...It's been mostly downhill from there...

>>>>>>>>>>>>Excuse me, but how do you have a simulation that runs a negative expectation game to show anything but a loss?? <<<<<<<<<<<

It happens.

Playing tough with this objective, though almost always losing (W345 L690 T56), is so damn much fun I can hardly stand it...tom p

well, Tom P, you have added more honesty

at times I couldnt tell if it was you talking or you were quoting someone ... try the formatting codes that you get a link for at the bottom every time you reply, to quote

Quote: odiousgambit

well, Tom P, you have added more honesty

at times I couldnt tell if it was you talking or you were quoting someone ... try the formatting codes that you get a link for at the bottom every time you reply, to quote

Thanks, odious, I'll try to be more clear on what is quoted and what is my response going forward, should it ever be applicable again...re-reading my last, I see what you mean...tom p