Recording rolls at the casino

I have never recorded my rolls in the casino before, but I am contemplating doing this.

I hesitate to do this because it sort of brands you as one of those guys.

But I am already getting to the point where when I walk into a place I have never been before, they are recognizing me.

Nobody has banned me from playing, but when they already know what I am doing, there is no reason to hide. So I might as well start recording.

Someone on my forum that I suggested they need to record both dice made the point that it sucks recording two numbers per roll.

So I came up with a letter-based recording scheme to use in the casino:

11: a - aces
12: c - crap
13: f - four easy
22: j - little Joe has a four even when hard
14: v - five (roman number - v)
23: d - No fielD five
15: s - Six it's easy -- the first easy six has a 1 in it - so "S"
24: x - siX -- the second easy six has a two in it so "X"
33: w - Hard six the average white guy
16: o - six One nO fun.
25: u - it came five deUce no Use
34: m - it came four three, not for Me
26: g - Eight easy eight -- the first easy eight
35: h - eiGht easy eiGht -- the second easy eight
44: q - sQuare pair
36: n - Nine (the first Nine)
45: i - nIne (the second nIne)
46: t - tennesee
55: r - big richard - the hard ten - the zipper ripper
56: e - yo Eleven
66: b - boxcars



And here is a link with a 300dpi image (good if you want to print it on a nice printer).

http://goodshooter.com/images/dice_faces_300dpi.png

Anyone else who wants to record rolls using this letter-based scheme, feel free to feed me roll data in this format.

I'm wanting to get more people's rolls into my system for analysis, and having a good scheme to record rolls in the casino easily is important, so this is what I came up with for now.

It's unfortunate no casinos that I know of will allow you to run an iPhone app to record rolls. But I may create an app for that anyway even if I only use it at home. In the mean time, this prevents you from having to use commas and all that other jazz that gets difficult to write down and discern.

It also lets you hit a single key on the keyboard to record a roll instead of two keys .. eliminating some input problems with modes. I have timing code to try to deal with this, but one keystroke per roll is pretty nice once you get used to it.

wouldnt it be so much easier and quicker just to write down the 2 numbers than to memorize this new system?

i mean i can write "11" just as quickly as i can write "a"

and this new system leaves you open to making errors in translation

Well, there are lots of ways to make errors. I'm pretty sure the people who need this will make less errors with this than with the other method, actually.

The real problem is that when you write two numbers, it's not just the effort of writing two numbers, it's the effort in reading them as well.

When it's in the computer, it's easier. But handwritten, and trying to get commas or some other separator, it's just a pain.

So I don't know for sure, but I'm going to try it out myself. I think it has a good chance of being an improvement for manually writing with a pen or pencil.

It's also easier to pick out patterns. I mean if you want to find all the hard eights, it's easier to locate q's, than distinguish two fours next to one another.

But anyway... It will take some getting used to, especially for the letters that are a bit awkward.

If it catches on to use letters, I hope that everyone can agree on the same letters though! So I tried to spend some time on choosing them.

For those who find other methods easier, you can still use the other methods. But there's just not much point in using data that only records the sum of the two numbers in my opinion.

Generally speaking NOBODY has given me two number roll data except one person (VegasDiceController).

That guy has given me more real-live face-to-face support on my custom software than anybody. I haven't talked to him in a while though. But he has come by and worked with my software. I don't think anyone else has yet.

I made a simple, tiny, black notebook with replaceable, specially-ruled sheets that I use to record craps rolls, baccarat hands and roulette spins.

I'll have it with me when I come to Vegas in the next couple of days, and, if I can get it to you, you're welcome can try it out.

How are

My method
First digit is # rolled
Second is needed description and is a bit smaller than the first digit

2
3
4 (it can only roll 1,3)
4h (h=hardway)

5 or(51) meaning 5 with a 1
52 meaning 5 with a 2

6 or(61)
62
6h

71,72,73

8 (sometimes 82 so I can see the hop faster)
83
8h

9 (sometimes 93)
94

These are simple
10
10h
11
12

My eyes see the first Digit instantly, then it looks further if needed

I always track a game.
Most players laugh at you until you tell them exactly how many rolls they had on their 25 minute hand claim.
"It was 11 rolls only and 4 come out rolls."
It puts them right in their place, shuts them up.

For the wise guys, I tell them I am tracking the actual speed of the dice
They shut up real quick

Good Luck!

Quote: Beethoven9th

How are you being recognized at craps tables that you've never been to before?

This reminds me of an old W.C. Fields movie when he played a bank security guard.

He tells someone "if you recognize me 'go like this' (makes a hand signal) and 'if you DON'T recognize me 'go like this' (makes a different hand signal) ".

I like the thought process, but until you have it memorized very well, this will be way more error prone than the 2 number system, and writing 2 numbers isn't THAT much extra effort. And if you are inputting it into a computer, aren't you going to have to write 5 2 instead of "u" anyway?

Ahigh

You are making things way to complicated, just get a note book and write down your rolls, I track everybody on the table. So if I see the same shooter again I can put a face to their rolls. I can even give you your rolls, from when I watch you shooting! You can also track with a smart phone; by just putting your phone on record with one of the many apps they have to do that with, just pug in ear bugs that have a mic. with them hanging over your neck. Put the ear bugs under your shirt with the mic, nobody would know that you are tracking you rolls that way, when you get home you can enter your data into your computer.

Personally I feel that's a waste of time and do nothing with the rolls that I've recorded, I use them in the casinos when I'm on the table and of course to put a face with the rolls that I've seen some shooters having in different casinos around town.

If most of the time that I saw you shooting, you were getting on good rolls, I would bet on you when you had the dice. But my bet to start with would only be one bet, that you would have to make. I would bet what ever box number I have seen you make the most. Then if you did hit that box number more then once I would use what I've won to spread my bet on you!

The one thing that tracking a table will do for you is open your eyes to the fact that everybody just gets lucky when they get on good rolls, and the so-called DI's have a lot of PSO's and short rolls. The trouble with any craps player is we all remember the good rolls, but have a tendency to forget all the bad ones.

One of the things I think you will see if you start tracking the tables when you are shooting is that some of the things you thought you were doing, that you have a tendency to focus on may not be as good as you thought they were. Now I'm not cutting you down or anything like that just telling what I've found out over the years of tracking the tables.

Everybody that shoots with me will bet on the 10's and 4's when I'm shooting the only problem with that is some times they just disappear. I know that for a fact, because I track the tables and don't trick myself into thinking anything different!

Also what we do at home and in the casinos are two totally different things, at home we have nothing that is going to distract you while your shooting, but in the casinos that all changes.
Looking a real roll data from a casino will tell you what you want to see and let you know that you can or can't win money while you are playing craps.

I still give you all the credit in the world, for what you have been doing. You have spent way more time and money trying to see if you can win at craps. I don't think you are trying to prove anything, but the one thing I will tell you is if you are making any claim to something about being a so-called DI there are going to be players that will say BS. Personally I've played with some of the best DI's in these country, and still say they can't win every time they go into a casino, yes they get on some great rolls, but not every time, just like the so-called random rollers.

The only difference is the so-called random rollers don't go a round bragging about the good rolls they have in the casinos they don't have craps boards that are devoted to what they do in the casinos. The so-called random rollers don't spend their money on schools, unless they have seen the same so-called DI have great rolls every time they see them in a casinos shooting! Most of the guys that take classes don't play craps enough to make a big difference in what they are doing and after losing a bunch of time they give up playing craps. Every time I see a class in town I have to laugh, I know that the different schools didn't teach these guys what they are doing when they are playing, they take a class and revert back to what they did before the took the class, with the way they are betting, and wonder why they are losing, maybe their shooting did improve, but it just isn't enough to make up for all the stupid betting they are doing!!!!!

Quote: Ahigh

It's unfortunate no casinos that I know of will allow you to run an iPhone app to record rolls.

That should not be a problem. The relevant statute is:

Quote: NRS 465.075

Use or possession of device to obtain advantage at playing game in licensed gaming establishment.
1. It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment, including, without limitation, a device that:
(a) Projects the outcome of the game;
(b) Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play;
(c) Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to a game; or
(d) Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission.
2. As used in this section, “advantage” means a benefit obtained by one or more participants in a game through information or knowledge that is not made available as part of the game as approved by the Board or Commission.

Unlike recording cards played in blackjack, recording past rolls in dice games cannot confer an "advantage" as defined. I understand that operators may not be making a sufficient distinction between a dice-recording app and the iPhone card counting app which was circulated a few years back and which is clearly illegal (see http://www.gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=5343). However, there doesn't appear to be any statutory basis for a casino to disallow the use of an iPhone or other device to record dice rolls any more than they can disallow recording of past roulette numbers - and they do that themselves.

Quote: MathExtremist

That should not be a problem. The relevant statute is:

Unlike recording cards played in blackjack, recording past rolls in dice games cannot confer an "advantage" as defined. I understand that operators may not be making a sufficient distinction between a dice-recording app and the iPhone card counting app which was circulated a few years back and which is clearly illegal (see http://www.gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=5343). However, there doesn't appear to be any statutory basis for a casino to disallow the use of an iPhone or other device to record dice rolls any more than they can disallow recording of past roulette numbers - and they do that themselves.

I agree, you can use electronics to track this legally since it doesn't clearly give you an advantage for future play. Unfortunately the same statute also makes the Wiz's VP app illegal for use in NV casinos, imo. But it will might get pit bosses looking at you more than writing down things on pencil and paper.

Quote: Ahigh

But I am already getting to the point where when I walk into a place I have never been before, they are recognizing me.

Nobody has banned me from playing, but when they already know what I am doing, there is no reason to hide.

Why would they ban you from playing? It would cost the casino money, wouldn't it?

Now, I'm not a "sophisticated" craps player, but I understand the odds, and they cannot be overcome irregardless of one's "knowledge" of the game.

I don't "concentrate" extra hard when I throw the dice, I just throw the damn things. Does that make me a terrible shooter? I don't abide by any superstitions- saying the word SEVEN aloud does not win/lose anyone money in my opinion.

I play for fun, expect to lose money, and I do lose money. Just what the hell am I missing here?

" Just what the hell am I missing here? " The search for the Holy Grail of dice setters.

While it may be true that it's not illegal, can't they still ask you to stop, and kick you out if you refuse?

After all, it's also not illegal to count cards at blackjack, but they seem to be able to back you off for that.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

While it may be true that it's not illegal, can't they still ask you to stop, and kick you out if you refuse?

After all, it's also not illegal to count cards at blackjack, but they seem to be able to back you off for that.

Probably, but they would be stupid to do so as you just end up taking your business elsewhere.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

While it may be true that it's not illegal, can't they still ask you to stop, and kick you out if you refuse?

You nailed it. They'll tell you to put the phone away regardless of what you're using it for. You could be texting your Aunt Mable about how much fun you're having, doesn't matter, the game will stop until you put the phone away and further measures will be taken if it doesn't stay put away.

Is it important to know, for example, which die in your set fell as "4", (or "2"), in addition to the total of "6"? I would think this could be valuable info if the die closest to your thumb (or furthest from it) tended to fall a certain way in your various sets.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

You nailed it. They'll tell you to put the phone away regardless of what you're using it for. You could be texting your Aunt Mable about how much fun you're having, doesn't matter, the game will stop until you put the phone away and further measures will be taken if it doesn't stay put away.

Interestingly enough, Paris was extremely lenient about cell phones this trip. If you recall, I wrote a couple of years ago how Paris took down the ropes between all the craps tables, so people can cut right through the area. If they hang around in the back, they get chased, but otherwise there is no hassle. I heartily applaud them for this latitude. I never understood the thought process that called for chewing someone out who innocently cut through the area at 2:00 AM.

Anyway, New Year Day 7 to 9 AM we are playing in a good game with 5 straight up players, no center action, all come/place/buy bets. No dark siders. Shooter is on a roll, gets a phone call. Holds the phone away from his ear, picks up dice and throws. He and I were making the same press bets, so I called out our bets, as he stepped back from the table to speak on phone. Dice came out, he pulls phone from his ear, throws, and steps back. This lasted 3 or 4 rolls.

Never slowed the game down, and the box never said a word. Had it gone on a bit longer, I think something would have been said, but I thought it was handled perfectly. Obviously, none of the other players were upset by the phone, and the game was still moving. Great move by the box to not make a big deal about it.

EDIT: Of course, I would not expect this same latitude at 8:00 PM with a bunch of newbies on the table. The game is bad enough then, without adding distractions for the learners.

There is a point of diminishing returns, but you'd like to know this.

The problem is that in the casino when the dice touch or even land close together it is hard to keep track of which one is on the right and which one is on the left.

So it's just something I'm not focusing on.

But, in general, my software does support recording in order dependent manner, and has an option first sort (smaller number first) then flip the order of ever other roll in the list of roll data.

I get around worrying about this by only using symmetrical sets right now.

It simplifies a lot.

But if you know the order, you can examine all 548 possible sets instead of 24.

My suggested best sets (by my software) are almost always symmetrical sets anyway, so I don't worry too much about it.

When I first tested my software for analyzing strategies for the best set to use, the set I used was the best set out of 548 possible sets.

I assumed I had a bug, but it wasn't. I could back-test and give you the details by recreating it, but it was a real head-scratcher long shot.

But to explain it better, I had a great little run on my first 300+ rolls or so, and it was making tons of money on the six-point max odds strategy. So I made the routine to go through all the sets to test what set would have worked better on those rolls, and there wasn't one!

I spent some time trying to figure out why it wasn't working, only to find that it was.