Question about lay 4
December 24th, 2012 at 6:45:20 AM
permalink
If I lay the 4 for $6000...
A) can I pick up the bet anytime I wish or do I have to wait for a conclusion (4/7)
B) what are the additional costs involved in this transaction? ie commissions, vig, etc. and how do they work?
C) please verify. 4 = lose $6000; 7 = win $3000
Thank you for your help.
A) can I pick up the bet anytime I wish or do I have to wait for a conclusion (4/7)
B) what are the additional costs involved in this transaction? ie commissions, vig, etc. and how do they work?
C) please verify. 4 = lose $6000; 7 = win $3000
Thank you for your help.
December 24th, 2012 at 7:57:20 AM
permalink
In Las Vegas, there are three cases:
1) Commission up front
2) Commission on the win
3) Commission up front with first bet "free"
In all cases, the commission is 5% of the win. All places in Vegas round down $1.25 to $1.00 But some places round up $6.25 to $7.00 and some round down $6.25 to $6.00.
So let me give you concrete examples of specific casinos:
Silverton (commission up front):
Verbally, "lay the four for 6 grand." They will say "that's a $150 vig." So you give them $6150, they take the $150 and they put it in the dealer stacks, take out a lay lammer, put it on top of the $6000 (which would be three stacks of black chips there as they have no purples). Then they would say "you have a bet" and a bunch of suits would come out. When you win the bet, they would pay you $3000, and ask for another $150 if you want to keep it up, or give you back the $6000 if you don't.
If you wanted to take it down before rolling a seven, they would take $150 from the dealer stacks and give that back to you.
I think their limit is $1000, so max lay there is $2000 instead of $6000, but I wanted to use your numbers. If you made more than one bet, you could probably still play there, but they would want you to play longer and they would probably bring out purple chips. The main thing they don't want is somebody to do one big bet, win and leave without giving them the chance to win it back.
Fiesta Henderson (commission on the win):
Same thing but they would not take the $150 up front just pay you $3000 - $150 vig on the win .. meaning you only lose $6000 if you don't hit it instead of $6150. If you take it down, they just give it back.
Mandalay Bay (commission up front, first bet free):
If you only bet it once, and take it down, it works the same as commission on the win. It's slightly better if you go for a few more tries and give up as you will get back $150 when you finally take it down when you give up. Places that do it this way charge up front for the 5, 6, 8, and 9.
I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out who does it what ways. Most places are vig up front on all lay bets. But first bet free is the best deal in Vegas for the 4 and 10, but they give you crappy deals on the 5, 6, 8, and 9 every place I know that gives you the first one free on the 4 and 10.
If you really want a deal, and you are betting smaller amounts, sometimes dealers will charge you a dollar less every other hit instead of rounding up and down if you keep betting it consistently. Especially if you make it a point that this is how you determine where to take your business. Most people are so ignorant on how the lay bets work they won't have any idea you're getting a good deal because they can't follow along with what you're doing. But also, very few dealers know these sorts of details (charging different vig amounts every other pay).
And in summary, laying the four for $50 and taking $24 in pay, letting another roll or two go by and asking for $51 to come down is the lowest edge way to play the no four with "first bet free." You are very likely to argue about whether you get $51 or $50 when you take it down, though. If they have $0.25 chips, you might even convince them they owe you $51.25.
I would expect most places to argue that "first bet free" is the same as "commission on the win" because nobody generally takes these bets down expecting to get their vig back and they have probably never gone through these motions.
So there ya go!
1) Commission up front
2) Commission on the win
3) Commission up front with first bet "free"
In all cases, the commission is 5% of the win. All places in Vegas round down $1.25 to $1.00 But some places round up $6.25 to $7.00 and some round down $6.25 to $6.00.
So let me give you concrete examples of specific casinos:
Silverton (commission up front):
Verbally, "lay the four for 6 grand." They will say "that's a $150 vig." So you give them $6150, they take the $150 and they put it in the dealer stacks, take out a lay lammer, put it on top of the $6000 (which would be three stacks of black chips there as they have no purples). Then they would say "you have a bet" and a bunch of suits would come out. When you win the bet, they would pay you $3000, and ask for another $150 if you want to keep it up, or give you back the $6000 if you don't.
If you wanted to take it down before rolling a seven, they would take $150 from the dealer stacks and give that back to you.
I think their limit is $1000, so max lay there is $2000 instead of $6000, but I wanted to use your numbers. If you made more than one bet, you could probably still play there, but they would want you to play longer and they would probably bring out purple chips. The main thing they don't want is somebody to do one big bet, win and leave without giving them the chance to win it back.
Fiesta Henderson (commission on the win):
Same thing but they would not take the $150 up front just pay you $3000 - $150 vig on the win .. meaning you only lose $6000 if you don't hit it instead of $6150. If you take it down, they just give it back.
Mandalay Bay (commission up front, first bet free):
If you only bet it once, and take it down, it works the same as commission on the win. It's slightly better if you go for a few more tries and give up as you will get back $150 when you finally take it down when you give up. Places that do it this way charge up front for the 5, 6, 8, and 9.
I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out who does it what ways. Most places are vig up front on all lay bets. But first bet free is the best deal in Vegas for the 4 and 10, but they give you crappy deals on the 5, 6, 8, and 9 every place I know that gives you the first one free on the 4 and 10.
If you really want a deal, and you are betting smaller amounts, sometimes dealers will charge you a dollar less every other hit instead of rounding up and down if you keep betting it consistently. Especially if you make it a point that this is how you determine where to take your business. Most people are so ignorant on how the lay bets work they won't have any idea you're getting a good deal because they can't follow along with what you're doing. But also, very few dealers know these sorts of details (charging different vig amounts every other pay).
And in summary, laying the four for $50 and taking $24 in pay, letting another roll or two go by and asking for $51 to come down is the lowest edge way to play the no four with "first bet free." You are very likely to argue about whether you get $51 or $50 when you take it down, though. If they have $0.25 chips, you might even convince them they owe you $51.25.
I would expect most places to argue that "first bet free" is the same as "commission on the win" because nobody generally takes these bets down expecting to get their vig back and they have probably never gone through these motions.
So there ya go!
aahigh.com
December 29th, 2012 at 1:36:13 AM
permalink
Quote: Ahigh
Mandalay Bay (commission up front, first bet free):
If you only bet it once, and take it down, it works the same as commission on the win. It's slightly better if you go for a few more tries and give up as you will get back $150 when you finally take it down when you give up.
What's this? I haven't heard of this (commission up front, first bet free) before. I've played at the MB too. Can you explain? What does it mean, exactly?
Are you saying that:
1. I bet. No commission yet. I win. This is "free", but they charge me commission to leave it up. I pay and leave it up.
2. I win again. I've already paid commission for this bet, so, if I take it down now, I don't owe any more commission?
So, I've only payed commission once for 2 winning bets? Is this correct?
Do they do this for buys as well as lays?
December 29th, 2012 at 7:58:09 AM
permalink
I am really curious on this answer as well.
I have heard dealers say, "the first bet is free" on Buy bets before, but I have always figured it was just people not understanding the game they are dealing. Instead of saying the correct, vig on the win, they assume the first bet to be free, and then start charging vig up front, like they are more familiar with. I have never tried to take down the bet on the first win, to see what the dealer would do then.
But let's suppose that they really did not charge me any vig if I took it down.
When do I get to make another free bet? Is it the next shooter, after the next roll, my next cash in ?
This seems to open a can of worms.
I have heard dealers say, "the first bet is free" on Buy bets before, but I have always figured it was just people not understanding the game they are dealing. Instead of saying the correct, vig on the win, they assume the first bet to be free, and then start charging vig up front, like they are more familiar with. I have never tried to take down the bet on the first win, to see what the dealer would do then.
But let's suppose that they really did not charge me any vig if I took it down.
When do I get to make another free bet? Is it the next shooter, after the next roll, my next cash in ?
This seems to open a can of worms.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
December 29th, 2012 at 8:11:58 AM
permalink
Yeah, it's what makes the game interesting. The truth is that you will find that many dealers are inexperienced in the answers just as much as the players are.
Doing lay bets on break-ins is my favorite activity. ESPECIALLY for a break-in (or one who thinks he has enough experience to not be considered one) who gives me an attitude.
Dealers will usually figure out ahead of time what a bet will win in the rolls during its resolution.
For example, a $5 pass line with a $30 odds bets on the 5 and 9 pays 45 on the back and 5 on the front. So they often just give you two green chips. An experienced player might be puzzled if they were told to add a red chip to make it even why they got paid two greens and/or why they seemingly didn't get paid on the front...
Similarly, you can confuse break-in dealers on lay bets with commission up front if you tell them "lay the whatever" and figure out the 5% commission of the win amount and the right amount to bet it, it's not that obvious sometimes.
An example might be if you wanted to lay the 5 or 9 for 27. The pay is 18. So the vig is a buck. If you just give them $28 and say lay the 5 or lay the 9 and let them do it, they will often take a while to figure out that it's a dollar commission to lay 27 and often will go through all the motions leading up to "give me three more dollars" and then be left scratching their heads. They just don't get that bet often enough to know what to do is the short version of why dealers often choke on this bet. This is your chance to dig back into them, "how long have you been dealing?"
As far as the first 4 or 10 free, I don't know if you take it down and put it back up if that's the first one again, or if they say "you already had your first one."
Your mileage may vary.
The buy bets are almost always commission on the win. I don't know anywhere in vegas who has a free buy bet of any kind at all.
Doing lay bets on break-ins is my favorite activity. ESPECIALLY for a break-in (or one who thinks he has enough experience to not be considered one) who gives me an attitude.
Dealers will usually figure out ahead of time what a bet will win in the rolls during its resolution.
For example, a $5 pass line with a $30 odds bets on the 5 and 9 pays 45 on the back and 5 on the front. So they often just give you two green chips. An experienced player might be puzzled if they were told to add a red chip to make it even why they got paid two greens and/or why they seemingly didn't get paid on the front...
Similarly, you can confuse break-in dealers on lay bets with commission up front if you tell them "lay the whatever" and figure out the 5% commission of the win amount and the right amount to bet it, it's not that obvious sometimes.
An example might be if you wanted to lay the 5 or 9 for 27. The pay is 18. So the vig is a buck. If you just give them $28 and say lay the 5 or lay the 9 and let them do it, they will often take a while to figure out that it's a dollar commission to lay 27 and often will go through all the motions leading up to "give me three more dollars" and then be left scratching their heads. They just don't get that bet often enough to know what to do is the short version of why dealers often choke on this bet. This is your chance to dig back into them, "how long have you been dealing?"
As far as the first 4 or 10 free, I don't know if you take it down and put it back up if that's the first one again, or if they say "you already had your first one."
Your mileage may vary.
The buy bets are almost always commission on the win. I don't know anywhere in vegas who has a free buy bet of any kind at all.
aahigh.com
