How NOT to play the darkside
At about 1:30 AM, this kid joins the table directly next to me. As it turns out, it was instantly his turn to shoot. He puts $3 on the DP, announces to the table that "he is darth vader," and then rolls a 10 followed by a 7out. His celebration after this was bad enough, but he then starts trash talking the other players saying "7out, 7out. Feel the power of the dark side. Yeah, I won and you lost!"
After a few minutes of this, the pit boss calmly tells him "Sir, I am happy that you won, but if you make my customers uncomfortable, you'll have to leave."
Once the pit boss turns, he mutters to me "who the f**k is he to tell me how to bet or how to act? It's my money. F**k him!"
I calmly tell him, "you're right AND you're wrong. Just cool it."
I firmly believe in the power of the dark side, but never celebrate in public. It's simply not cool. The DP and DC are the best bets in the casino and the only ones that you can kinda bet with the house. Too much of this nonsense and the felt changes to eliminate it.
edit:I gotta stop skimming.
Quote: darthvaderThe DP and DC are the best bets in the casino...
...if you say so.
Quote: darthvader...Once the pit boss turns, he mutters to me "who the f**k is he to tell me how to bet or how to act? It's my money. F**k him!"
I calmly tell him, "you're right AND you're wrong. Just cool it."
Very fine, exactly, cool it is right.
People come to play, to get their action, to have fun, what have you, and who cares what they bet - but to NOT to be harrassed by some prick on the game. If someone thinks their system is better, then fine, use it and show those other players, but sheesh, poking other people in their eyes on a crap game, like this guy, is just begging for trouble.
Quote: darthvaderI firmly believe in the power of the dark side, but never celebrate in public. It's simply not cool. The DP and DC are the best bets in the casino and the only ones that you can kinda bet with the house. Too much of this nonsense and the felt changes to eliminate it.
Casinos won't change the current crap table layout no matter who bets what, - as all bets have a house edge.
They will 86 someone harassment/disorderly conduct/inappropriate behavior, if necessary, to maintain order on a live game.
Quote: darthvaderannounces to the table that "he is darth vader,"
It looks like he would be YOU
Don't players may not like the fact that they really aren't supposed to celebrate their winnings like Do players are able to, but if it is really an issue, they can always join in with the Right bettors.
There are few things more annoying than an obnoxious Don't player. People are already unhappy if they lost a bet, but they can accept that. It is part of what you expect when you come to a casino, that you will sometimes lose. Most people don't like being taunted after they lost, though. They don't come to the casino for that.
I don't mind people who bet Don't on themselves. It tells me they don't have much confidence in their shot, and I appreciate the honesty.
Quote: darthvaderThe DP and DC are the best bets in the casino...
Quote: RogerKint...if you say so.
Got anything better for a random game?
Quote: SACRIt tells me they don't have much confidence in their shot, and I appreciate the honesty.
I am fully confident in my shot, which aims to roll a point and then a seven.
Just kidding, it is all random - just trying to illustrate the fact that what is a good or bad shot is entirely in the eye of the beholder.
Quote: SACRThere is an etiquette to craps, for both the Do and Don't players.
Don't players may not like the fact that they really aren't supposed to celebrate their winnings like Do players are able to, but if it is really an issue, they can always join in with the Right bettors.
There are few things more annoying than an obnoxious Don't player. People are already unhappy if they lost a bet, but they can accept that. It is part of what you expect when you come to a casino, that you will sometimes lose. Most people don't like being taunted after they lost, though. They don't come to the casino for that.
I don't mind people who bet Don't on themselves. It tells me they don't have much confidence in their shot, and I appreciate the honesty.
I was playing at Hollywood in PA last year, and the table was stone cold. Finally, those of us left playing all went to the dark side. I was shooting, set the point, and 4 throws later, 7 out. From the other side of a table I hear another player say, "Hey shooter, You suck. Way to go.", and here comes a hand for a high five.
It was pretty comical.
I wouldn't be so confident. Blackjack still has a house edge at 3:2, but you are seeing more 6:5 tables. Bottom line is that if the casino feels that offering the darkside is actually costing them money (in scaring away the suckers), it will go bye-bye. There is absolutely no obligation.
Quote: RaleighCrapsI was playing at Hollywood in PA last year, and the table was stone cold. Finally, those of us left playing all went to the dark side. I was shooting, set the point, and 4 throws later, 7 out. From the other side of a table I hear another player say, "Hey shooter, You suck. Way to go.", and here comes a hand for a high five.
It was pretty comical.
That is AWESOME :-)
Quote: RedoneThats whats wrong with this country. Always have to make sure nobody gets there feelings hurt. I play the donts but i stay quite. I dont gripe when 90% of the players are bad mouthing me or pulling for themselves or the shooter. The problem is most are poor losers and cant stand to see someone.else win
Exactly! If anyone..blame the casino..not other players...We're ALL playing against the casino...
The thing that will change is that at low limits, the only casino employees involved with craps will be slot techs.
If you are a don't bettor and someone hit the point, you wouldn't like it if someone started taunting you, either.
When a don't bettor makes a big bet against the shooter, and they seven out, I just nod and acknowledge their good bet.
Harassing other players, regardless of betting style, makes for an uncomfortable environment, and takes the fun out of the game, period.
Quote: darthvader>>[Dan:]Casinos won't change the current crap table layout no matter who bets what, - as all bets have a house edge.
[dv]I wouldn't be so confident. Blackjack still has a house edge at 3:2, but you are seeing more 6:5 tables. Bottom line is that if the casino feels that offering the darkside is actually costing them money (in scaring away the suckers), it will go bye-bye. There is absolutely no obligation.
I am confident.
The thing is, the don't pass, DC, and lay bets also work for the house, and have not lost money for the house. As such, these bets aren't actually the "house's side" bets of the game, as they are simply other available player bets of the game that some players "think of" as the "house side." This situation is similar to Roulette's Red, Black, and Zero opposing bets, and Baccarat's "Player" and "Banker" bets. They are all opposing player's bets, all of which provide a house edge. The players are simply playing against each other, and the house taxes them all pretty equally, and is fine with it. There is simply NO +EV bets in craps.
We can also look at the opposing bets in Pai Gow Poker, of the Bonus bet and the Pai Gow insurance. They are opposing bets.
You cannot win the bonus bet while winning the Pai Gow insurance bet, and vice versa. One's a dark side "bad hand" result, the other a positive bonus bet. Both make money for the house.
In craps, IF the 12-crap were paid on the DP and DC, it would be a player-advantaged bet.
If the crap-12 were paid HALF on the DP and DC, it would be a neutral "no-loss" bet, like odds.
But since the crap-12 pushes on the DP and DC, it actually has a house edge the size of the pass line bet, about 1.41% house's favor.
If the house wanted to increase the house edge on the dark side, they would simply make the DP and the DC bet a push on the crap-3 roll, instead of the 12, which they haven't yet done, and are unlikely to do.
Gonna be in Vegas in a few days.
Never played real craps in my life. Tried out Organic craps once but that doesn't count. (Video poker and live poker holdem cash player}
Read up on craps at the Wiz's odds site and practiced at his site. Like any amateur gambler, interested in making bets with the best odds.
On Wiz's site, playing the dark side has the slightly better odds.
Thinking about playing craps in Vegas in a few days just for fun.
For more fun, plan on playing the dark side but will keep quiet if winning.
For more fun, someone talks to me about playing the dark side, I'll be honest, "I'm a craps virgin"
a) Play at tables with at least 3/4/5 odds and preferably 10x odds. The craps survey on this site will show you the odds at all casinos. Keep your line bet(s) as low as possible and get your action through the odds. $5 tables are easy to find unless you go to the ultra luxury places (which is no place to learn, IMO)
b) set a session loss limit and stick to it. While a good strategy, you can get killed on the darkside by a hot shooter. In fact, I make it a principle to never lose more than one odds bet to a given shooter.
IMO, it is best to play the dark on crowded tables, as there is more blood.
In order to be as covert as possible, it is best and easiest to play the darkside from the table positions directly next to each dealer. In addition, that puts you specifically next to the dealer, where it is easiest to ask for assistance.
Some people like to tip the dealers at the end of their session. I feel it is more logical to do just the opposite. That is, immediately after buying in, I throw a couple bucks in for the boys. This gets you helpful service for the very beginning.
Best of luck on your trip.
Darth Vader
You can always switch to the dark side later, but to me it's the communal feeling at a winning craps table that makes the game unique.
- load up, or at least bet some odds;
- loss limits/win limits: some of my BEST sessions were just later killed, by sticking around and chasing out of greed. A couple of times my wife was present, and boy, I have not heard the end of it.
- dark side? Play by a base dealer, and keep a low profile. Take your seven-out winnings with a very quiet "I figured as much.....!"
- toke the dealer going in, or early on. Get them on your side early.
All fine advice by a knowledgeable guy darthvader.
Quote: CalderIf you're asking, I'd say if you want to have fun at your first live craps game, play Right. The advantage of playing Wrong is miniscule, and if you catch a hot table, you'll have a lot more fun whooping it up with the other Right players at the table.
You can always switch to the dark side later, but to me it's the communal feeling at a winning craps table that makes the game unique.
Damn Calder, long time no post!
Welcome back to the farm!
All good advice. Mandalay Bay had a $5 table during the day recently. You couldn't find a much nicer place to shoot for $0.05 per bet.Quote: PaigowdanSome spot-on and excellent advice from Darth:
- load up, or at least bet some odds;
- loss limits/win limits: some of my BEST sessions were just later killed, by sticking around and chasing out of greed. A couple of times my wife was present, and boy, I have not heard the end of it.
- dark side? Play by a base dealer, and keep a low profile. Take your seven-out winnings with a very quiet "I figured as much.....!"
- toke the dealer going in, or early on. Get them on your side early.
All fine advice by a knowledgeable guy darthvader.
I'm still trying to figure out an optimal tipping strategy to get the dealers on my side early. I find all the hardways right off the bat works pretty well. A two-way parlay on the hard six and eight really gets their attention.
Quote: teddysAll good advice. Mandalay Bay had a $5 table during the day recently. You couldn't find a much nicer place to shoot for $0.05 per bet.
I'm still trying to figure out an optimal tipping strategy to get the dealers on my side early. I find all the hardways right off the bat works pretty well. A two-way parlay on the hard six and eight really gets their attention.
What I do:
Dealers placed on the pass line for a nickel on a point number, or less on the come out, but with a nickel odds when a point gets established.
Then, player-controlled hardways, to parlay for the crew.
When I leave, I also throw in a few nickels, - or more, if I won big.
Quote: teddysI'm still trying to figure out an optimal tipping strategy to get the dealers on my side early. I find all the hardways right off the bat works pretty well. A two-way parlay on the hard six and eight really gets their attention.
So does a $1 piggyback DC, especially with laying odds. Even down to $6.
Quote: CalderIf you're asking, I'd say if you want to have fun at your first live craps game, play Right. The advantage of playing Wrong is miniscule, and if you catch a hot table, you'll have a lot more fun whooping it up with the other Right players at the table.
You can always switch to the dark side later, but to me it's the communal feeling at a winning craps table that makes the game unique.
Heres my question.
If Dont pass just has a very slight edge over Pass, Then dont pass is the better bet.
Therefore why doesn't the shooter bet on dont pass and why doesn't the rest of the table join the shooter on dont pass?
Instead of everyone cheering for a 7 1st roll, cheer for 2 3 or 12 instead. Then if a point is set, whole table roots for a 7.
Seems to me a table can have alot of fun if the whole table plays the dark side.
Quote: teddysAll good advice. Mandalay Bay had a $5 table during the day recently. You couldn't find a much nicer place to shoot for $0.05 per bet.
I'm still trying to figure out an optimal tipping strategy to get the dealers on my side early. I find all the hardways right off the bat works pretty well. A two-way parlay on the hard six and eight really gets their attention.
I like to make a bet that has a good chance of winning. Placing the 6 and 8 for $6 each, player control, is a good bet. I find the dealers really like this bet. I have them take the first hit, then press the next hit, and then press one unit ($6) every time after. If you get a shooter who is hitting these numbers, you can put quite a bit in the toke box for your $12 investment.
Quote: terapinedHeres my question.
If Dont pass just has a very slight edge over Pass, Then dont pass is the better bet.
Therefore why doesn't the shooter bet on dont pass and why doesn't the rest of the table join the shooter on dont pass?
Instead of everyone cheering for a 7 1st roll, cheer for 2 3 or 12 instead. Then if a point is set, whole table roots for a 7.
Seems to me a table can have alot of fun if the whole table plays the dark side.
I have played on tables where we all were on the dark, and yes, we did celebrate the 7 out as a group, but it wasn't that much fun.
For one thing, as soon as a shooter 'wins' with the 7 out, they lose the dice.
Plus, there is no great pressing strategy. You put your bet out there, and wait for a 7 to roll.
You can always add DC bets to get more action, but if the shooter is repeating numbers, you will get killed.
The excitement builds during a roll when you are playing the right side.
I start out with $30 on all of the box numbers. When the shooter hits one, I take some of the winnings, but press the bet as well. After a shooter has hit 4 of the box numbers, I have quite a bit more on the table. I stand to win more, but I also have more at risk. Excitement is building. I notice the shooter has hit four 6s. Hmmmm. I decide to do a full parlay on the next hit, so my $90 six becomes $180. Now I am really looking forward to another 6. Other player's are also pressing their bets, and the table is starting to buzz. Shooter throws a 6, and I am looking to high five my neighbor as I collect my $210 (well, as I collect $150, because I am pressing to $240).
Basically, Right side play can give you something to cheer about on every throw.
If I was purely into craps to make a little money every time, I think I would play the DP. Try and grind out a small win, and leave. It just isn't my cup of tea.
Parting story. On my last trip, I had a great roll (over 30 min). A Dark player was on the opposite end of the table (where I was landing my dice), playing piles of black chips. I had stung him for about $2G when he decided he was going to get his money back. Took out a $5K marker, and put it all on DP. I made the point. He took out a second 5K marker, puts it all on DP, and I roll a 7 come out winner. He takes a 3rd $5K marker, and decides to Lay the 5. Why, I have NO IDEA. I was KILLING the 5. He also starts arguing that he has only taken out 1 marker, not 3. This has all taken less than 2 minutes to lose the first 2 bets. They sort it out, he Lays the 5, dice come to me, and I roll a FIVE. Now he is arguing his Lay was not active on the come out roll. He glares at me, takes another $5K marker, slams it down on the DC. He loses that bet too, and walks away. So in the space of 5 minutes, he lost $20,000 on the 'best bet in the house', aside from odds.
I would have thrown up.
Quote: RaleighCraps
Parting story. On my last trip, I had a great roll (over 30 min). A Dark player was on the opposite end of the table (where I was landing my dice), playing piles of black chips. I had stung him for about $2G when he decided he was going to get his money back. Took out a $5K marker, and put it all on DP. I made the point. He took out a second 5K marker, puts it all on DP, and I roll a 7 come out winner. He takes a 3rd $5K marker, and decides to Lay the 5. Why, I have NO IDEA. I was KILLING the 5. He also starts arguing that he has only taken out 1 marker, not 3. This has all taken less than 2 minutes to lose the first 2 bets. They sort it out, he Lays the 5, dice come to me, and I roll a FIVE. Now he is arguing his Lay was not active on the come out roll. He glares at me, takes another $5K marker, slams it down on the DC. He loses that bet too, and walks away. So in the space of 5 minutes, he lost $20,000 on the 'best bet in the house', aside from odds.
While it is the "best bet in the house," it is not infallible and it is very possible (as you told) to lose a ton. IMO, in order to successfully play the darkside, you have to abide by a few key rules:
* never, ever bet while on "tilt".
* Don't let a single shooter break you. I never let a shooter beat me for more than one big odds bet. In fact, in this situation, I would have switched to the light side after you made your 2nd point.
* have a session loss limit. In this case, this guy should have walked away when he lost the first $500. Live to play another day.
And while mathematically and probabilistically (a word?), it theoretically doesn't make a difference, I make sure my don't money is less than the do money on the table.
All points of view are of interest.
Darth Vader
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEcwAWi6dk
Quote: darthvaderWhile it is the "best bet in the house," it is not infallible and it is very possible (as you told) to lose a ton.
He lost 4 units. That is not "a ton". If you can't afford to lose $20k on 4 rolls then betting $5k / roll is a pretty bad idea.
Quote:IMO, in order to successfully play the darkside, you have to abide by a few key rules:
* never, ever bet while on "tilt".
* Don't let a single shooter break you. I never let a shooter beat me for more than one big odds bet. In fact, in this situation, I would have switched to the light side after you made your 2nd point.
* have a session loss limit. In this case, this guy should have walked away when he lost the first $500. Live to play another day.
These rules don't really accomplish anything. It doesn't matter if you are on tilt, or if the shooter is hot, or cold, or in a good mood or bad mood or whatever. His chances of making the point are the same. It doesn't matter whether you make your next bet now or later today or tomorrow or next week. It's all one long session.
Now, if "quitting early" causes you to play less, then, yeah, you will lose less, but by that logic you should just not play at all. And, if being "on tilt" causes you to make much larger bets that usual, well, yeah, obviously, if you bet more you will lose more in the long term.
But, if you are going to play for 1 hr and make the same sized bets no matter what, it doesn't matter if you quit after 15 minutes and come back later for the other 45 minutes of play, or play the full hour right now. "Hot" and "cold" shooters exist only in the rear view mirror. The hottest shooter in the world is no more or less likely to make the next point than the coldest shooter in the world.
I think that the best betting strategy is the one that is the most fun for you to play. You are going to lose in the long run anyway, and the difference in house edge between the pass and the don't pass are insignificant. It makes no sense to be willing to pay the 1.4% for entertainment, and then ruin the entertainment value by trying to save 0.01% of that. I will say that it's a good idea to avoid the high house edge bets, since those can run into the double digits, although, I will occasionally make one anyway (at a MUCH smaller bet than my normal bets). But the house edge difference between pass and don't pass is not enough to think about.
Quote: terapinedHeres my question.
You asked about playing your first live game. If you want to pitch that idea to a table full of players, go for it.
Quote: CalderYou asked about playing your first live game.
Late to the discussion here;
it does seem to me what is considered good advice is varying quite a bit here.
I'd say the best advice has been to go ahead and be a right-side bettor. Terrible advice to go with 10x odds for a first time event, if you ask me. I wouldnt even play 3x4x5x odds, but go with 2x instead even if more is offered. When you get the hang of some things, like what you are really betting and what kind of bankroll is needed, then move up to 3x4x5x odds if you like.
Bear in mind most of us wind up playing a style of craps where we are in denial about what kind of bankroll is really needed. Check out some recent threads if you don't believe me.
Quote: 24BingoWhat do you "need" a bankroll for? To win consistently, you'd need an infinite bankroll (and infinite time), so why bother? Better to take a chance and maybe double up than grind your money away.
You can't win at craps consistently.
No need for a large bankroll to play a negative expectation game. If the negative expectation is worth the cost, then clearly you're having fun, so go ahead and play with some small (whatever's small to you) money.
Quote: darthvader
IMO, it is best to play the dark on crowded tables, as there is more blood.
Darth Vader
Darth, I thought it was best to play the dark on empty tables as well? I thought crowded tables tend to be streaky. At least in my experiences.
Quote: RaleighCraps
Parting story. On my last trip, I had a great roll (over 30 min). A Dark player was on the opposite end of the table (where I was landing my dice), playing piles of black chips. I had stung him for about $2G when he decided he was going to get his money back. Took out a $5K marker, and put it all on DP. I made the point. He took out a second 5K marker, puts it all on DP, and I roll a 7 come out winner. He takes a 3rd $5K marker, and decides to Lay the 5. Why, I have NO IDEA. I was KILLING the 5. He also starts arguing that he has only taken out 1 marker, not 3. This has all taken less than 2 minutes to lose the first 2 bets. They sort it out, he Lays the 5, dice come to me, and I roll a FIVE. Now he is arguing his Lay was not active on the come out roll. He glares at me, takes another $5K marker, slams it down on the DC. He loses that bet too, and walks away. So in the space of 5 minutes, he lost $20,000 on the 'best bet in the house', aside from odds.
I would have thrown up.
RaleighCraps that is sick!!! I don't know whether to laugh or cry for the poor guy. He probably can afford it either way.
Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddyDarth, I thought it was best to play the dark on empty tables as well? I thought crowded tables tend to be streaky. At least in my experiences.
If shooting from the dark, I only do it alone. But when not shooting, I prefer a crowded table. Of course, if thing are going well on the darkside, the table doesn't stay crowded for long.
In my experiences, yes, there seem to be hot and cold streaks in addition to the occasional choppy table. Of course, in reality, one only truly knows of a streak when looking in the past, not the future. But it is not mathematically disadvantageous either to assume that the current streak will continue. I personally use my low-valued chips to keep track of roll count as well as # of points made so I quantitatively know how the table has been going.
Luke, I am your father.
Quote: SanchoPanzaQuote: teddysI'm still trying to figure out an optimal tipping strategy to get the dealers on my side early. I find all the hardways right off the bat works pretty well. A two-way parlay on the hard six and eight really gets their attention.
So does a $1 piggyback DC, especially with laying odds. Even down to $6.
I will always bet $1 no-4 and $1 no-10 for the dealers every shooter. If the shooter is landing some box numbers, I will put up $1 place-6 and $1 place-8. Some times on the come-out I will put up $1 Horn for the boys. I generally budget $20 for the dealers during the game(my stay at the table). If I am winning, another $20 goes to the budget. All this provides much better service and far less heat during my DI throws and not hitting the back wall is excused.
Quote: jkluv7
I will always bet $1 no-4 and $1 no-10 for the dealers every shooter. If the shooter is landing some box numbers, I will put up $1 place-6 and $1 place-8. Some times on the come-out I will put up $1 Horn for the boys. I generally budget $20 for the dealers during the game(my stay at the table). If I am winning, another $20 goes to the budget. All this provides much better service and far less heat during my DI throws and not hitting the back wall is excused.
Agree. However you choose to do it, a couple bucks here and there gets you better service and a bit more latitude. It pains me that so many players don't tip a thing.
