question about come line bets
August 23rd, 2012 at 5:27:21 PM
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Hi, I'm a craps "newbie", sorry if I am missing something obvious. I've been trying to learn the game online and observing some table games but haven't played it yet (want to understand it first before I play in case I do something embarrassing).
I don't quite fully understand how come line bets and a few other things work and have a few questions. Here are my questions, thanks in advance for any answers.
1. what is a "hot" table? if the dice is random anyways why does it matter if you join a table where someone is having a long roll? or is it just superstitution?
2. is the main reason a come bet is better than a place bet is because on the first throw for a come line bet, that if you get a 7 then the come bet line wins whereas a place line bet would lose? (although i think of this as a loss overall and not a win at all since it results in losing the passline bet with the odds which has the much greater bet during the outcome roll of a come line roll) is there any other reason a come bet is better than a place bet?
3. can you take odds on a place line bet? i saw someone today put down chips and said he wanted 6 and 8, and there was a chip with some offset ships, was that a place line bet with odds? or a come line bet?
4. i'm a bit confused how to actually make an odds bet. when you make a come line bet with odds, do you give the odds bet at the same time to the dealer or put down a come line bet first, wait for the dice to roll, then add in the odds if appropriate?
i.e., does it take 2 roll of the dice to get a come bet + odds bet on the table or just 1 roll?
do you put the odds of the come bet after the come bet base amount or do you put the come bet odds + the come bet amount together?
e.g., say i intend to make a come line bet with max odds with $5 come line bet + $20 odds
do i put the $5 chip along with the $20 at a time and tell him the $20 is for odds of whatever comes out? or first throw a $5 and then if its another point number then I give my odds bet to him? (do I give the odds bet to the dealer or put it on the table int he come section or near the number?)
5. is the house edge affected by how many come line point numbers you have going for you?
e.g., I like to do:
pass-line bet with max odds
2 come-line bet with max odds
does this have a lower house edge than just:
pass-line bet with max odds
or the same?
it seems that when i put more come line bets than I am risking more.
if it is the same then what is the downside (in terms of house edge) of always putting down another chip in the come-line bet?
e.g., if i have
pass-line bet with max odds
2 come-line bet with max odds
1 bet in the come-line
and but i don't add odds until another point number is hit
(so that I will have 3 point numbers going at any time, and one come bet "in line" waiting for another is hit? so this way, if a come point number is hit, i don't have to wait for 2 more rolls to add odds to a come point?) (since it takes 2 rolls to get the come line odds bet down for a number?) if that makes sense
--
and related
which has a lower house edge?
pass-line bet with max odds
2 come-line bet with max odds
or
pass-line bet with max odds
3 come-line bet with max odds
or
pass-line bet with max odds
2 come-line bet with max odds
1 come-line bet but don't add the odds yet until another come line number is hit so)
?
6. does the come-line bet with odds work on the come out roll for the regular pass-line number?
i mean, when the puck is "off", and there are still come-line bets with odds on the table, are those still working?
if yes, the come line base bet can't be removed but should the odds on the come-line bets be removed? (for the lowest house edge)
like, whenever the puck goes to "off" after having just hit a point number and i still have come-line bets with odds, should i remove the odds, then when the come out roll is another point number then put the adds on the come line bets back on?
7. also i saw a video craps game "shoot to win" craps
what kinds of house edge does that have compared to real-life craps?
8. is it illegal to try to "control" the dice or to arrange them in your hands a certain way when you throw them?
9. it seems the house edge is near 0, if you play for a while then you can almost always walk away with a winning? even if its not a huge amount
e.g., if you play with $5000 chances are very high that if you play for a while that at some point during your play you would reach, say, $6000, so you're pretty sure to win $1000 (assuming you are playing with an amount you can afford to lose), i realize its a bet and theres a chance that after a lot of plays you will lose but since the amount you are expected to have after a lot of plays is essentially the same as what you started with and there is some fluctuation, that is a good bet to make?
e.g., if someone has $5,000 to play with which they can afford to lose and they play craps for a while aren't the chances very very high that at *some point*, that their total bankroll would be, say at $1,000 which is $1,000 profilt? and even really likely that it will reach $7,000 for a $2,000 profit which is pretty good? (not a huge huge amount but personally i wouldnt be disappointed if i bet $5000 and the chances were very very high that i got 10-20% of that at the end? it seems like the odds are very good that someone can always walk away with like 20% of their bankroll (so its hard to actually lose?) or is there something wrong in my reasoning?
unlike the slot machines where the more you play the expected amount you are expected to have goes less and less for craps its essentially the same since the house edge is near 0?
Thank you!!
I don't quite fully understand how come line bets and a few other things work and have a few questions. Here are my questions, thanks in advance for any answers.
1. what is a "hot" table? if the dice is random anyways why does it matter if you join a table where someone is having a long roll? or is it just superstitution?
2. is the main reason a come bet is better than a place bet is because on the first throw for a come line bet, that if you get a 7 then the come bet line wins whereas a place line bet would lose? (although i think of this as a loss overall and not a win at all since it results in losing the passline bet with the odds which has the much greater bet during the outcome roll of a come line roll) is there any other reason a come bet is better than a place bet?
3. can you take odds on a place line bet? i saw someone today put down chips and said he wanted 6 and 8, and there was a chip with some offset ships, was that a place line bet with odds? or a come line bet?
4. i'm a bit confused how to actually make an odds bet. when you make a come line bet with odds, do you give the odds bet at the same time to the dealer or put down a come line bet first, wait for the dice to roll, then add in the odds if appropriate?
i.e., does it take 2 roll of the dice to get a come bet + odds bet on the table or just 1 roll?
do you put the odds of the come bet after the come bet base amount or do you put the come bet odds + the come bet amount together?
e.g., say i intend to make a come line bet with max odds with $5 come line bet + $20 odds
do i put the $5 chip along with the $20 at a time and tell him the $20 is for odds of whatever comes out? or first throw a $5 and then if its another point number then I give my odds bet to him? (do I give the odds bet to the dealer or put it on the table int he come section or near the number?)
5. is the house edge affected by how many come line point numbers you have going for you?
e.g., I like to do:
pass-line bet with max odds
2 come-line bet with max odds
does this have a lower house edge than just:
pass-line bet with max odds
or the same?
it seems that when i put more come line bets than I am risking more.
if it is the same then what is the downside (in terms of house edge) of always putting down another chip in the come-line bet?
e.g., if i have
pass-line bet with max odds
2 come-line bet with max odds
1 bet in the come-line
and but i don't add odds until another point number is hit
(so that I will have 3 point numbers going at any time, and one come bet "in line" waiting for another is hit? so this way, if a come point number is hit, i don't have to wait for 2 more rolls to add odds to a come point?) (since it takes 2 rolls to get the come line odds bet down for a number?) if that makes sense
--
and related
which has a lower house edge?
pass-line bet with max odds
2 come-line bet with max odds
or
pass-line bet with max odds
3 come-line bet with max odds
or
pass-line bet with max odds
2 come-line bet with max odds
1 come-line bet but don't add the odds yet until another come line number is hit so)
?
6. does the come-line bet with odds work on the come out roll for the regular pass-line number?
i mean, when the puck is "off", and there are still come-line bets with odds on the table, are those still working?
if yes, the come line base bet can't be removed but should the odds on the come-line bets be removed? (for the lowest house edge)
like, whenever the puck goes to "off" after having just hit a point number and i still have come-line bets with odds, should i remove the odds, then when the come out roll is another point number then put the adds on the come line bets back on?
7. also i saw a video craps game "shoot to win" craps
what kinds of house edge does that have compared to real-life craps?
8. is it illegal to try to "control" the dice or to arrange them in your hands a certain way when you throw them?
9. it seems the house edge is near 0, if you play for a while then you can almost always walk away with a winning? even if its not a huge amount
e.g., if you play with $5000 chances are very high that if you play for a while that at some point during your play you would reach, say, $6000, so you're pretty sure to win $1000 (assuming you are playing with an amount you can afford to lose), i realize its a bet and theres a chance that after a lot of plays you will lose but since the amount you are expected to have after a lot of plays is essentially the same as what you started with and there is some fluctuation, that is a good bet to make?
e.g., if someone has $5,000 to play with which they can afford to lose and they play craps for a while aren't the chances very very high that at *some point*, that their total bankroll would be, say at $1,000 which is $1,000 profilt? and even really likely that it will reach $7,000 for a $2,000 profit which is pretty good? (not a huge huge amount but personally i wouldnt be disappointed if i bet $5000 and the chances were very very high that i got 10-20% of that at the end? it seems like the odds are very good that someone can always walk away with like 20% of their bankroll (so its hard to actually lose?) or is there something wrong in my reasoning?
unlike the slot machines where the more you play the expected amount you are expected to have goes less and less for craps its essentially the same since the house edge is near 0?
Thank you!!
August 23rd, 2012 at 5:40:18 PM
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IMO, There is no such thing as a "hot table".Quote: y11oelevenHi, I'm a craps "newbie", sorry if I am missing something obvious. I've been trying to learn the game online and observing some table games but haven't played it yet (want to understand it first before I play in case I do something embarrassing).
I don't quite fully understand how come line bets and a few other things work and have a few questions. Here are my questions, thanks in advance for any answers.
1. what is a "hot" table? if the dice is random anyways why does it matter if you join a table where someone is having a long roll? or is it just superstitution?
!
How hot IS the water??
Hot for one may be Cold to another.
Download the FREE program WinCraps
http://www.cloudcitysoftware.com/
Read the Help section.
This way you can answer many of your own questions and see how bets actually work.
It has to be the best Craps program in this world.
Did I say it is free.
You can even play Craps with it.
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
August 23rd, 2012 at 5:43:31 PM
permalink
thanks i'll check that out
i've tried a couple online simulations
and one at wizardofodds.com
*edit - i noticed that link for wincraps is just for windows
but i have a mac so i can't use that haha
are these pretty much exactly the same as the real life craps tables (e.g., in las vegas strip casinos) or are there some key differences in the game rules?
i've tried a couple online simulations
and one at wizardofodds.com
*edit - i noticed that link for wincraps is just for windows
but i have a mac so i can't use that haha
are these pretty much exactly the same as the real life craps tables (e.g., in las vegas strip casinos) or are there some key differences in the game rules?
August 23rd, 2012 at 5:46:41 PM
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IMO, most online versions of Craps have lots of errors in them and they can not be adjusted to different casino rules.Quote: y11oeleventhanks i'll check that out
i've tried a couple online simulations
http://www.crapsage.com/free_craps.php
and one at wizardofodds.com
are these pretty much exactly the same as the real life craps tables (e.g., in las vegas strip casinos) or are there some key differences in the game rules?
WinCraps can and it is just for Windows PC.
Good Luck with your questions.
You will gets lots of different answers to a few of your questions.
I Heart Vi Hart
August 23rd, 2012 at 7:27:51 PM
permalink
Almost always... NoQuote: y11oeleven9. it seems the house edge is near 0, if you play for a while then you can almost always walk away with a winning?
even if its not a huge amount
At Craps the best chance you can have at turning $5,000 into $6,000 is 5/6 or 83.3%.Quote: y11oelevene.g., if you play with $5000 chances are very high that if you play for a while that at some point during your play you would reach, say, $6000, so you're pretty sure to win $1000 (assuming you are playing with an amount you can afford to lose), i realize its a bet and theres a chance that after a lot of plays you will lose but since the amount you are expected to have after a lot of plays is essentially the same as what you started with and there is some fluctuation, that is a good bet to make?
In reality it is less than 80% chance.
20 out of 100 sessions will bust a $5K bankroll trying to turn it into $6K.
80% as I answered aboveQuote: y11oelevene.g., if someone has $5,000 to play with which they can afford to lose and they play craps for a while aren't the chances very very high that at *some point*, that their total bankroll would be, say at $1,000 which is $1,000 profilt?
At best to turn $5K into $7K is 5/7 or about 71% but in reality it is close to 66%.Quote: y11oelevenand even really likely that it will reach $7,000 for a $2,000 profit which is pretty good?
(not a huge huge amount but personally i wouldnt be disappointed if i bet $5000 and the chances were very very high that i got 10-20% of that at the end? it seems like the odds are very good that someone can always walk away with like 20% of their bankroll (so its hard to actually lose?) or is there something wrong in my reasoning?
So 1 out of 3 sessions one can average a bankroll bust of $5K trying to always win $2K.
The more bets you make, the expected loss increases as the house edge remains the same.Quote: y11oelevenunlike the slot machines where the more you play the expected amount you are expected to have goes less and less for craps its essentially the same since the house edge is near 0?
This requires more wins or higher $wins to overcome the house edge.
Luck plays the most important part in your gambling sessions.
I Heart Vi Hart
August 23rd, 2012 at 11:40:20 PM
permalink
Quote: y11oelevenI'm a craps "newbie", sorry if I am missing something obvious. I've been trying to learn the game online and observing some table games but haven't played it yet (want to understand it first before I play in case I do something embarrassing).
The Wizard made a video that has a lot of good tips about etiquette, definitely pay attention to those things they say not to do. They make it seem like not a big deal, but in gambling there is money involved, and when there is money involved, everything not quite right to the crew is indeed very much a big deal. Cup the dice before throwing and they'll go ape-s**t [you could be introducing loaded dice]. Try to check out all 5 of his craps videos. More etiquette advice
Quote:9. it seems the house edge is near 0, if you play for a while then you can almost always walk away with a winning? even if its not a huge amount
You definitely have the wrong idea about near-zero HE. You can lose. You will lose. Expect to lose, be surprised when you win. Be prepared for soul-numbing losing streaks. At some point you may decide the free odds are the ticket, to introduce variance. Then you will find out your losing streaks can really clobber you.
Am I being harsh? Yep, because I can see you are setting yourself up for the big fall. Even an advantage player can lose, he will lose, and he should be prepared for some soul-numbing losing streaks.
Less than 1% HE is where to be for the Craps player IMO, yes, but forget about "almost always walk away with a winning" ... you will wind up in the funny farm with thinking like that.
PS: and when you are in one of those losing streaks, here is a gem amongst many to sooth your soul
"You will be among the unfortunate few who, statistically speaking, will be located in the far left tail of the Gaussian curve. Someone has to be there. It will be you. "
Or shall we say, this time it was you.
[thanks to Even Bob for providing this link]
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/wontwin.html
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
August 24th, 2012 at 6:23:49 AM
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Wow. Lots of questions. Well thought out as well.
You are confusing some terms.
A "Line" bet refers only to the Pass line or Don't Pass line. A Come bet is not a Come Line bet.
1 - A hot table can go cold at any time. And vice-versa. I.E. It's just superstition. On the other hand, craps bettors tend to be the most superstitious bunch you'll find in a casino. If you buy in during a player's roll, particularly a hot player, and the next roll is a 7, expect to get the stink eye from all the players.
2 - There are two schools of thought on this. As you indicate, you can win on a 7 with the initial come bet. On the other hand, you have to get a number, and get it again to win the come bet. Some people think a place bet is better because of the lower price and the ability to select the number you want.
3 - A chip with off-set chips on the pass line is probably a place bet on the point. Many dealers will move these to the place box, but old-schoolers will allow it to stay on the line if the bettor prefers it.
4 - Odds on a Come bet are placed after the roll and the bet is moved to the come box. Generally, just drop the odds chips into the come / field area and say "Odds on my come." A good dealer will remind you about the odds if you're distracted or forget.
5 - No. Each bet is separate with it's own edge. Any attempts to combine / reduce the edge is called Hedging.
6 - Come bets odds do NOT work on a come-out roll unless you ask for them to be on. This is why the big puck has an OFF written on the black side. Just a subtle reminder that they're off. If the shooter throws a 7, the come bet will lose, and your odds will be returned. If the next point is your come point, you'll be paid on the come, but the odds are merely returned.
Note that the OFF button also indicates that Hard Ways are off - Except in Vegas (possibly other areas as well).
8 - It is not illegal to attempt to control your shot. The casino will discourage it if you take too long, or seem to be successful. Note that you used the term "hands". You ARE limited to using only one hand.
9 - No. With all casino games, the longer you play, the more you, theoretically, are supposed to lose.
On the other hand, the longer you play, the more variance you will experience.
You are confusing some terms.
A "Line" bet refers only to the Pass line or Don't Pass line. A Come bet is not a Come Line bet.
1 - A hot table can go cold at any time. And vice-versa. I.E. It's just superstition. On the other hand, craps bettors tend to be the most superstitious bunch you'll find in a casino. If you buy in during a player's roll, particularly a hot player, and the next roll is a 7, expect to get the stink eye from all the players.
2 - There are two schools of thought on this. As you indicate, you can win on a 7 with the initial come bet. On the other hand, you have to get a number, and get it again to win the come bet. Some people think a place bet is better because of the lower price and the ability to select the number you want.
3 - A chip with off-set chips on the pass line is probably a place bet on the point. Many dealers will move these to the place box, but old-schoolers will allow it to stay on the line if the bettor prefers it.
4 - Odds on a Come bet are placed after the roll and the bet is moved to the come box. Generally, just drop the odds chips into the come / field area and say "Odds on my come." A good dealer will remind you about the odds if you're distracted or forget.
5 - No. Each bet is separate with it's own edge. Any attempts to combine / reduce the edge is called Hedging.
6 - Come bets odds do NOT work on a come-out roll unless you ask for them to be on. This is why the big puck has an OFF written on the black side. Just a subtle reminder that they're off. If the shooter throws a 7, the come bet will lose, and your odds will be returned. If the next point is your come point, you'll be paid on the come, but the odds are merely returned.
Note that the OFF button also indicates that Hard Ways are off - Except in Vegas (possibly other areas as well).
8 - It is not illegal to attempt to control your shot. The casino will discourage it if you take too long, or seem to be successful. Note that you used the term "hands". You ARE limited to using only one hand.
9 - No. With all casino games, the longer you play, the more you, theoretically, are supposed to lose.
On the other hand, the longer you play, the more variance you will experience.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 24th, 2012 at 6:40:46 AM
permalink
thanks for the responses :) i read the responses once quickly but its early in the morning now and ill probably read through them again later in case i missed anything
i read through the etiquette and i observed some people playing craps, i think i get the main points about the etiquette although theres probably some things i might have to learn along the way and i hope i don't forget something when i actually try to play the game in person
1.
if you want to put max odds on the come bet but the come point hasn't turned up yet but wouldn't you not know yet how many chips to put down, 4, 5 or 6? so do you give the dealer 7 chips and if the come number is a 4 or 10 and has max odds of 4 then they give 2 of them back to you?
2.
so is there no difference in the house edge whether you play 1 come bet number + odds or play max come bet numbers + odds?
(you would have to have a higher bank roll to play more numbers but is the house edge the same?
i.e., if you just keep putting come bets + odds until all the numbers are filled
does that affect your "overall" house edge?
i don't know if there is an "optimal" number of come numbers i should have going
does it matter whether you try to have 0, 1,2,3,4,5 numbers going at once?
like is it better to have only 2 come numbers at a time or to just keep putting down come bets for as long as you can?
i know you're risking losing more but how does the house edge for the different strategies compare in the long run?
how many come numbers should be used so statistically in the long run the house edge is lowest? (if that makes sense)
3. since come odd bets are off by default on a come out roll, should you ask for them to be on on the come out roll? (which has a lower "overall" house edge, keeping the odds on even on the come out roll or just leaving it as the default so that the come bet odds are off)?
thanks!
i read through the etiquette and i observed some people playing craps, i think i get the main points about the etiquette although theres probably some things i might have to learn along the way and i hope i don't forget something when i actually try to play the game in person
1.
if you want to put max odds on the come bet but the come point hasn't turned up yet but wouldn't you not know yet how many chips to put down, 4, 5 or 6? so do you give the dealer 7 chips and if the come number is a 4 or 10 and has max odds of 4 then they give 2 of them back to you?
2.
so is there no difference in the house edge whether you play 1 come bet number + odds or play max come bet numbers + odds?
(you would have to have a higher bank roll to play more numbers but is the house edge the same?
i.e., if you just keep putting come bets + odds until all the numbers are filled
does that affect your "overall" house edge?
i don't know if there is an "optimal" number of come numbers i should have going
does it matter whether you try to have 0, 1,2,3,4,5 numbers going at once?
like is it better to have only 2 come numbers at a time or to just keep putting down come bets for as long as you can?
i know you're risking losing more but how does the house edge for the different strategies compare in the long run?
how many come numbers should be used so statistically in the long run the house edge is lowest? (if that makes sense)
3. since come odd bets are off by default on a come out roll, should you ask for them to be on on the come out roll? (which has a lower "overall" house edge, keeping the odds on even on the come out roll or just leaving it as the default so that the come bet odds are off)?
thanks!
August 24th, 2012 at 6:56:53 AM
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1 - Like the pass line, you do not put down the odds until after the point is established.
I.E. For a come bet, you put the chips in to the big come box. The shooter rolls. If the roll is 4,5,6,8,9, or 10, the dealer moves it to the small box with that point number. You THEN put down the chips for the odds.
2 - Like I said, each bet has it's own house edge. Your bets are all independent. Making an additional bet doesn't change the edge on a bet that's already down.
There is no "Optimal" number of come bets. It's all about your bankroll and comfort level.
If you run a simulation of a million rolls, you'll see plenty of sequences where the optimal strategy was to have 6 come bets, and you're raking it in. There will also be many times where once you get the 6 bets out, you're wiped out by a 7 out. Etc.
Running those million roll simulations is meaningless, since you'll be at the table not for millions of rolls, but dozens.
3 - One a mid-hand come-out roll, Come bets are NOT off, Come ODDS are off. Asking for them to be on is a personal preference. Off is normal because the shooter is now happy to throw a 7. As such, wouldn't you want to have as many bets off as possible?
I.E. For a come bet, you put the chips in to the big come box. The shooter rolls. If the roll is 4,5,6,8,9, or 10, the dealer moves it to the small box with that point number. You THEN put down the chips for the odds.
2 - Like I said, each bet has it's own house edge. Your bets are all independent. Making an additional bet doesn't change the edge on a bet that's already down.
There is no "Optimal" number of come bets. It's all about your bankroll and comfort level.
If you run a simulation of a million rolls, you'll see plenty of sequences where the optimal strategy was to have 6 come bets, and you're raking it in. There will also be many times where once you get the 6 bets out, you're wiped out by a 7 out. Etc.
Running those million roll simulations is meaningless, since you'll be at the table not for millions of rolls, but dozens.
3 - One a mid-hand come-out roll, Come bets are NOT off, Come ODDS are off. Asking for them to be on is a personal preference. Off is normal because the shooter is now happy to throw a 7. As such, wouldn't you want to have as many bets off as possible?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 24th, 2012 at 7:46:37 AM
permalink
Quote: odiousgambitThe Wizard made a video that has a lot of good tips about etiquette, definitely pay attention to those things they say not to do. They make it seem like not a big deal, but in gambling there is money involved, and when there is money involved, everything not quite right to the crew is indeed very much a big deal. Cup the dice before throwing and they'll go ape-s**t [you could be introducing loaded dice]. Try to check out all 5 of his craps videos. More etiquette advice
You definitely have the wrong idea about near-zero HE. You can lose. You will lose. Expect to lose, be surprised when you win. Be prepared for soul-numbing losing streaks. At some point you may decide the free odds are the ticket, to introduce variance. Then you will find out your losing streaks can really clobber you.
Am I being harsh? Yep, because I can see you are setting yourself up for the big fall. Even an advantage player can lose, he will lose, and he should be prepared for some soul-numbing losing streaks.
Less than 1% HE is where to be for the Craps player IMO, yes, but forget about "almost always walk away with a winning" ... you will wind up in the funny farm with thinking like that.
PS: and when you are in one of those losing streaks, here is a gem amongst many to sooth your soul
"You will be among the unfortunate few who, statistically speaking, will be located in the far left tail of the Gaussian curve. Someone has to be there. It will be you. "
Or shall we say, this time it was you.
[thanks to Even Bob for providing this link]
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/wontwin.html
+1 on the Wiz videos! Highly informative and proves Dan is in fact a good dealer. The player, as stated before, is easy on the eyes as well.
Watch them as often as needed to get comfortable enough to start playing. He covers everything pretty well including what bets not to make.
Stupid is a choice
August 24th, 2012 at 8:15:21 AM
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I think Dan's posts, by themselves, are proof that Dan is a good dealer and class act. Agree or disagree with him, the guy is indisputably a genius, in my opinion.
I'd love the opportunity to play at his table, any day of the week.
I hope there is some kind of charity event thing somewhere, maybe Hollywood, Columbus when it opens? I wonder how much you have to donate to get to be the caller? I think I'd make a great caller. They let me call my own dice at WI when I am alone at the table, and man do I put some energy behind it, even when I lose!!!
I'd love the opportunity to play at his table, any day of the week.
I hope there is some kind of charity event thing somewhere, maybe Hollywood, Columbus when it opens? I wonder how much you have to donate to get to be the caller? I think I'd make a great caller. They let me call my own dice at WI when I am alone at the table, and man do I put some energy behind it, even when I lose!!!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
August 24th, 2012 at 10:00:58 AM
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You are confusing HOUSE EDGE with EXPECTED LOSS (HE vs EV)Quote: y11oeleven2.
so is there no difference in the house edge whether you play 1 come bet number + odds or play max come bet numbers + odds?
The HE is always -7/495...ALWAYS. It NEVER changes.
The EV is what changes. It changes with the number of trials or bets made.
The variance also changes.
Read about variance in WinCraps help section.
The HE is the same. It is the EV that changes.Quote: y11oeleven(you would have to have a higher bank roll to play more numbers but is the house edge the same?
A higher bankroll?
For what?
Longer play?
Hitting a win goal?
A larger bankroll is not needed.
It depends on the main goal of why you are playing.
Most say to have fun.
Most want to play forever and win lots of money.
These two do not go together very well.
Again, the HOUSE EDGE NEVER CHANGES.Quote: y11oeleveni.e., if you just keep putting come bets + odds until all the numbers are filled
does that affect your "overall" house edge?
The EV and variance does with each bet made.
There is no optimal number of come bets to make.Quote: y11oeleveni don't know if there is an "optimal" number of come numbers i should have going
does it matter whether you try to have 0, 1,2,3,4,5 numbers going at once?
like is it better to have only 2 come numbers at a time or to just keep putting down come bets for as long as you can?
But if you have a playing goal in mind then the more bets made the greater chance of playing a shorter session.
This should be very intuitive to most, but not all.
For hitting a win goal it does not matter.
For longer play it does matter since you are making more bets.
The HE is the same.Quote: y11oeleveni know you're risking losing more but how does the house edge for the different strategies compare in the long run?
how many come numbers should be used so statistically in the long run the house edge is lowest? (if that makes sense)
The HOUSE EDGE will NEVER change.
Only the EV and variance.
And, the number of come bets does not matter when it comes to winning.
Each come bet is an independent bet. Other bets do not make it win or lose more.
One come bet stands on it's own.
Many will say, more come bets lose more.
They only go from short session results and do not include all the possible outcomes that can happen in a short session.
In other words, the mathematically challenged Craps player gives very poor advice
that is based on their observations of a very limited number of trials
and the selective memory of their brain.
A poor combination, to say the least, when one wants to know the real results.
You need to prove all these things to yourself.
WinCraps is a great school to go to.
And it is free.
It costs about $20 if you want to run high-speed simulations.
Only you can determine if $20 is worth it.
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Results from 1 million dice roll simulations.
Some say these results are meaningless since one never plays 1 million rolls in a session.
They do not understand correctly probability and statistics.
I had a 60unit bankroll and I wanted to double it.
This is a very common gamblers requirement for playing and getting enjoyment from a playing session playing with a certain method.
I always made a pass line bet with either 1 max come bet
2max come bets
3max come bets
and always making come bets.
(I always took max odds, I do not remember if it was 345X or 10X)
1come
46.24%
rolls: 55
handle: $1042
mean: -7.48
2come
46.28%
rolls: 39
handle: $907
mean: -6.59
3come
46.82%
rolls: 32.6
handle: $828
mean: -3.6
ALL come
47.42%
rolls: 29.6
handle: $786
mean: -0.29
Looks like I doubled my 60unit win goal about the same probability regardless of how many max come bets I made.
(Same holds true making don't come bets. A larger bankroll is needed to Lay the odds)
The difference is the nuber of rolls to double the bankroll,
the total $$$ actually bet (the handle)
and the mean (EV)
The reason why the EV is lower for the every roll come bet
is that there are less bets, less total $$$ bet and that makes most of the money bet on the 0% HE Odds bet.
The very BEST bet in the casino and on the Craps table. The Odds bet.
0%
You are not short changed on any payoff from an odds bet (as long as you make the proper unit bet)
That is what really the house edge is. How much the casino short changes you on a win.
More great info on this in the WinCraps Help section.
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Learning to play Craps is not like learning to swim.
Just make that first pass line bet, wait for a point...
maybe you win that first pass line bet before you get a chance to make the odds bet, that is too bad, winning right away on the first roll.
Take at least 1X odds on see what happens.
After your first win or loss, do it again.
The dealer will help you out.
If you make a mistake, who cares, the dealer will correct you.
KNOW WHERE THE DICE ARE AT!
Only make your bets when the dice are in the center of the table, NOT when they are in the shooters hands.
AND KEEP YOU HANDS out of the table area when the shooter has the dice!
KNOW WHERE THE DICE ARE AT... AT ALL TIMES.
Is that clear??
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
August 24th, 2012 at 10:59:12 AM
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Those same simulations will tell you how many times you can expect to see all 6 come bets raking it in in X number of rolls.Quote: DJTeddyBearIf you run a simulation of a million rolls, you'll see plenty of sequences where the optimal strategy was to have 6 come bets, and you're raking it in. There will also be many times where once you get the 6 bets out, you're wiped out by a 7 out. Etc.
The same simulations will also show you how many times in X rolls you will have all 6 wiped out.
You will see this is not a very common event.
try this reading. Better than a pile of dog poop.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/10806-how-many-come-bets-are-optimal/6/#post169297
But million roll simulations can return a lot of useful data, IF you know what to do with it.
Otherwise, it is almost the same as just a pile of dog poop.
Not.Quote: DJTeddyBearRunning those million roll simulations is meaningless, since you'll be at the table not for millions of rolls, but dozens.
meaningless for you, not me.
Another man's junk is another man's treasure.
You have to know what to do with the collected data.
Would you just trust the results of 2 simulations of 24 rolls or 1 million simulations of 24 rolls?
DJ, those words in the sentence you used seem out of place to me.
Maybe they are in the wrong order.
try these two orders.
I think they make more sense the way I listed them
Running those million roll simulations is meaningless, since you'll be at the table not for millions of rolls, but dozens.
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Running those million roll simulations is meaningless, since you'll be at the table not for millions of rolls, but dozens.
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Running those million roll simulations is meaningless, since you'll be at the table not for millions of rolls, but dozens.
IMO, the above sentence is just a pile of dog poop
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
August 24th, 2012 at 11:35:42 AM
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Yes. once you make that basic flat bet on the come or pass, (don't pass and don't come also) now you can make the best bet in the casino. A 0% HE bet.Quote: y11oeleven2. is the main reason a come bet is better than a place bet is because on the first throw for a come line bet, that if you get a 7 then the come bet line wins whereas a place line bet would lose? ...
is there any other reason a come bet is better than a place bet?
Try to find that bet in other games or other bets.
The odds bets helps to increase the variance without changing the EV.
Read about it in WinCraps. Steen did a great job on the help section.
He should post it online, it is that good.
The place bet PAYS odds.Quote: y11oeleven3. can you take odds on a place line bet?
When you make the proper unit bet, a place bet will never pay even money.
Just to confuse you.
A place bet is really just a unit come bet with 4X odds on the 4,5,9 and 10 and 5X odds on the 6&8.
Read about put bets in WinCraps
or even at the WoO
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/
Great question and observation!Quote: y11oeleveni saw someone today put down chips and said he wanted 6 and 8, and there was a chip with some offset ships, was that a place line bet with odds? or a come line bet?
The come bet is positioned IN the point box.
The place bet is positioned on the line of the point box (the front and the rear line only)
sometimes the place bet line is a single line or a double line The photo shows both
This photo below shows a $6 place6. Notice the CAP.
Us dice dealers offset the place bet on the 6&8, say $12, 2 $5 chips and 2 $1 chips
(So it kind of does look like a come bet with odds)
I offset the $2 slightly forward, call it a CAP,
that way I know how many units are bet and the payoff is simply $7 times the cap (on the 6&8)
If the bet is $60, I offset the 2 $5 chips and I know the payoff is just $7 times the CAP ($10)
As Sally mentioned in her post, just start to play with a simple bet.
Know the location of the dice so you NEVER interfere with them, by having a hand or hands on the table as the dice are rolling.
A very easy way to piss of many other players and get yourself hated very quickly.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
