Player threatened to be kicked out of Casino because he is watching a "Whale" play Craps!

Quote: sodawater

Borgata in AC used to have 3 PGP tables that were always packed every night. It now has 2 PGP tables that are even more crowded and 1 EZPGP table that is always empty.

False. Right now there are four regular PGP tables, and two EZ PGP. The EZs are more often full than the regular. Players playing two seats on the EZ are often asked to give up a seat to someone waiting to play, even though there are vacant seats on the regular. I am at Borgata right now, and have been here nearly every weekend for the past several months.

Quote: bw

False. Right now there are four regular PGP tables, and two EZ PGP. The EZs are more often full than the regular. Players playing two seats on the EZ are often asked to give up a seat to someone waiting to play, even though there are vacant seats on the regular. I am at Borgata right now, and have been here nearly every weekend for the past several months.

bw - thank you, immensely, for saying so!

I track my game very closely, and notice the same effect here in Las Vegas, and in reports from other states where the game is installed.
While I am not confident in most new games, I worked hard on EZ pai Gow, and I really did my homework, and think it'll pay off. I'm betting on it.

Anyway - thanks again for the report!

I have not played EZ pai gow yet, but I am pretty sure I will like it. I do like to bank, especially if one on one with the dealer, when I will bank every other hand. So--- I think I would choose EZPaigow if I do not have a one on one opportunity at a regular pai gow table. I do not feel, EVEN IF the house edge was slightly higher, that EZ would be analagous to 6:5 BJ. The concept of getting rid of the commission and its wasted time and silly quarters flying around is the REASON for EZ PaiGow. I have not experienced the sting of having my flush with a pair push the dealer's Q high, though! Congrats on all the installs, Dan.... When are you going to enter the Western NY and Southern Ontario markets?

SOOPOO - thanks!
I would love to get into NYS and the Ontario markets; The approvals for individual States and its Indian tribes are called by the distributor, DEQ. I'm happy with their progress, and avoid pushing them about markets in a piecemeal fashion.

The odds of Facing a Queen-high about is pretty rare (1 in 58 rounds), and is similar to the dealer getting a Flush with a 3-2 on top, where you'd push anyway. I fell, by contrast, the sting is a commission, - where you're always less than equal even-money pay on an even-money bet every time. That was the biggie.

Dan, I don't feel that you really have to defend whether EZPaiGow is successful or not, the results speak for themselves. Over 60 installations with almost zero returns equals a very successful game AND the momentum seems to be continuing.

Not everyone will prefer EZPG but, personally, I do. I like the full payout on a win and understand that occasionally the dealer will get a Q high and I will push.

Congratulations on your success and being one of a handful of people in your position in the development of casino games.

Quote: Paigowdan

No - the players themselves pretty much prefer it, and there are many reasons for it aside from your "oh - get a 1.0836574% house edge reduction from it, Wowie !!"

Ok, so, you think that a difference in HE of 1.4% is nothing. Got it. 6:5 BJ is perfect for you then.

Quote:

1. Player banking causes game slow-downs by adding an extra hand setting round within the same deal - annoying players as much as the house.

At the place where I play I'm allowed to set my hand at the same time as the other players when I'm banking. So this doesn't exist

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2. Player banking causes extra dealer and pit work and errors, with bonus bets being paid-and-taken separately by the house - while the banked main bets go to and from player 'X' - causing added delays and confusion to players, dealers, pit personnel, and surveillance alike.

Right, dealers are incompetent. This is less of a problem as you get away from the low-roller casinos.

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3. Player banking annoys many players, causing them to say "If I wanted players banking against me, I would gone to the fxxking poker room, damn it! - where casino personnel hear this and correctly assume, that as a player annoyance, it might be bad for business, in addition to bogging the damn game down severely.

Never once has this happened when I was banking.

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4. Often, a banking player can't cover the action, either because his bankroll discreetly dwindled, or because other players step up their bets to thwart banking by other players - which is frequent seen by them as an act of showboating/show-off showmanship by the banker player, an annoying delay, or an act of greed to either grab the other players' money, or to grab a petty percentage via the two-card side hand copies.

Never once has this happened when I was banking. If I don't have enough to cover the levels that the other players are playing, I don't bank (and I go find another table)

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5. There is also contention between players, and between a player and dealer, as to WHO is next to bank, or WHEN the bank is to return to the player's side, and WHAT limit a player may bank at. This is especially so if a player was playing two hands - "does he get to bank at the combined value, or at the value of his largest hand, or at the level of his lowest hand's bet?"

Again, the problem of incompetent dealers is less severe when you get away from the low-roller joints.

Quote:

6. Approximately 3% of rounds dealt on Pai Gow Poker tables involve player banking, and about 97% are straight up pit-banked Pai Gow poker. Clearly, both players in general and pit personnel alike feel it adds very little of a positive nature, while it causes massive and unneeded operational headaches, contentions, and disputes in the pit, all for the sake of either a "game show off," or someone attempting to grate off a personal percentage point at the expense of all others involved on the game. Remember that the other fellow players lose to YOUR copies - as well as THEIR money. This is aside from the fact that "mixing poker-room style play with pit banked play in the middle of live money games operations - consistently just adds a mess." ALL Casinos that have abandoned player banking in the pit have seen increases in both operational efficiency as well as customer patronage as a result of well-running games.

Right, players are bad at math. We already knew that. I'll bet that less than 3% of UTH hands are played properly. That doesn't mean that the house should change the rule to ban betting 4x pre-flop with anything less than QQ, even though it wouldn't affect most players.

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Now I've been working full time in the casino pits here in Las Vegas for the past seven years as a dice and Pai Gow dealer, as well as a game designer of some note on pai Gow games, and I certainly know the details of this issue; and I don't see this as a "6:5 Blackjack Red herring" issue.

You just said that you don't consider the house edge difference between allowing banking and not allowing banking to be significant. So, why don't you play 6:5, since the house edge difference is the same? Either you care about an extra 1.4% or you don't. I can assure you that the house cares about it.

Quote:

1. "the House edge on EZ Pai Gow is higher" - when it is documented in this industry, as well as by the gaming mathematician here who runs this site, as LOWER than commission pai Gow poker; Check out our sister site Wizard of odds.

Sure, if (and only if) player banking is allowed, then it's fine. It's particularly good for low-roller joints since it takes the quarters out of play. Once you are betting black or higher it's pointless.

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2. that No commission Pai Gow is viewed as a "gimmick" - when in reality "getting slammed with a commission skim" on every one of your even-money wins is viewed as a scam on a straight up game like Pai Gow, and is also of a higher house edge;

Of course it's a gimmick. It's funny that you think that "getting slammed" on commission is such a big deal, but "getting slammed" when the dealer pushes with a bad hand is fine, as is "getting slammed" when you lose on a copy every single time.

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3. That "Oh - only those $5 Nickel joints prefer No Commission" - when the high-money players - who are the ones getting slammed with big commissions on their big money "even money" wins - strongly prefer not getting hit with these commissions.... You bet $10,000 at a high-limit Pai Gow game, you do NOT want to pay a $500 skim on it right back to the house! That's a hell of a car payment on just ONE bet's commission alone! And if you THINK that the Barona Casino, Pala Casino, and the Borgata Hotel are "low-roller joints," - then you know damn little about the gaming industry. ...Yet on a $5 game, the commission on a win is just a 25c quarter. As such, the commission games are tailored for low-stakes action. That's the real deal on this.

Ok, so high rollers are bad at math too. The don't like the $500 skim going back to the house on every win, but they are fine with the $10,000 skim when the dealer has a Q high. And they also don't mind the $10,000 skim every time one of their hands is a copy. People who have a clue do care about this, though. Congratulations, you have found a form of the game that takes advantage of the mathematically challenged. Are you sure that 6:5 wasn't your idea?

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4. That I've been told "Oh! Your game sits idled when the other commission games get action." No, this is not the reports I get and need to Verify - in fact the table drop AND table hold stats of EZ Pai Gow, Fortune pai Gow, Emperor's Challenge, and Imperial Pai Gow are PUBLICLY listed side by side for ALL Missouri casinos, a good sample - and I can assure you that the EZ pai Gow numbers are strongest, - with increasing installs. Same in California and in New Jersey. In fact, You can examine these public numbers yourself at Missouri Gaming Commission Website. Please do so, so you can know what you're talking about.

I don't know anything about this. I have no idea how idle it is since I've yet to see it in an actual casino.

Quote:

5. In my last week of dealing at the casino I work at, Two forum members here - both of whom are game designers - stopped in to see me there. Of all things, I was dealing EZ pai Gow..... Paradigm grabbed the last open seat on the game, late Sunday night. Switch and his wife, also of this forum, had to wait until a player playing TWO hands colored up and left to get seats - while the other commission Pai Gow game sat dead with NO players. I was thankful I was not on dice. Not only was I there, two other forum members were there too, - and I can tell you they were NOT "AxiomOfChoice" and "SodaWater." If these two guys want to show up in Vegas, I'll take them on a tour of the East Side Cannery, Hooters, Rampart Casino, Riviera, - so they can see for themselves next to me.

No thanks. I prefer the higher-end casinos. Maybe when your game makes it to the Venetian I'll take a look.

Quote: SOOPOO

I have not played EZ pai gow yet, but I am pretty sure I will like it. I do like to bank, especially if one on one with the dealer, when I will bank every other hand. So--- I think I would choose EZPaigow if I do not have a one on one opportunity at a regular pai gow table. I do not feel, EVEN IF the house edge was slightly higher, that EZ would be analagous to 6:5 BJ. The concept of getting rid of the commission and its wasted time and silly quarters flying around is the REASON for EZ PaiGow. I have not experienced the sting of having my flush with a pair push the dealer's Q high, though! Congrats on all the installs, Dan.... When are you going to enter the Western NY and Southern Ontario markets?

This is a big mistake, SOOPOO. You should be more willing to bank when there are other players at the table, if you can cover them, and especially when they are not banking. Banking half the hands at a full table is a very good deal -- You can actually play with an edge in this case (although the swings are big). If you choose to play a game where you can't bank instead of one where you can, you are just doubling your losses.

The analogy to 6:5 is from getting rid of banking, not from commission vs no-commission. But, if the house allows banking in regular, and not in EZ, then, yeah, EZ is basically the 6:5 table. If banking is allowed on both that it doesn't matter. If banking isn't allowed on either then they are BOTH like the 6:5 tables.

I agree with you about the quarters flying around, but, once you are up to the black chip level, this is no longer an issue. I am going to have small chips on the table anyway (for tipping) so capping a black with a red before betting is no big deal. Also, if they allow banking, then they need the quarters for commission anyway, and, if they don't allow banking, then I would just suggest not playing (same approach as I take to 6:5 BJ tables)

Quote: Ahigh

Trust me it goes both ways, dealer. You are USED to being a dealer, and when you hear complaints over and over you assume it's the person doing the complaining that has the problem.

Incorrect. When the guest has a legit problem it's handled as such, when it's the typical whining like you're describing it's, "Sorry sir, that's company policy." You're making an incorrect assumption about me and how I do my job.

Quote: Ahigh

If you have absolutely NO CONSIDERATION for the points that I am making, then consider your SELF as part of the PROBLEM that I am talking about consider the fact that I am the CUSTOMER and you are an employee of the casino, for which you deny is worthy of being considered a "loser."

You just twist things around in any manner that is convenient for an attempt at making a point, don't you?
- I did consider the points you're trying to make. I find them lacking.
- I don't mind being part of what you consider the problem. I'm sure the drunks that security tosses out consider the guards to be the problem too, and I don't think they're bothered by it either.
- I never said "the casino" wasn't losing money. I asked you to provide a source for your assertion. I feel you failed to do so. Then you tried to change what you meant by "loser" from losing money to being jerk-like. Whatever, keep changing what you mean every time you get caught in a logical corner, it's not making me look foolish that you can't keep your argument straight.

Quote: Ahigh

Here's my suggestion, since I don't have to deal with that:

IF YOU DON'T ENJOY YOUR JOB, QUIT YOUR JOB AND FIND A BETTER JOB THAT YOU ENJOY MORE!

The fact is that if you challenged yourself a little bit more, you could probably do better for yourself. If you don't enjoy dealing, I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU QUIT.

I never said I didn't like my job, in fact I enjoy it very much. As for being entertained, players with your sense of entitlement provide that for me, so I guess we're even.

Quote: Ahigh

A dealer who actually enjoys their job and wants to be the best dealer possible would quickly understand what I'm saying instead of going back and forth about making points like "I don't understand what you're saying."

LOL. This is undoubtedly from your vast experience as a dealer, right?
- I never said I didn't understand your argument, I've been following along as it's morphed and changed throughout these pages.
- What I said I didn't understand was how stock prices showed that a casino was losing money.
- And why you use the terms "the casino" and "Las Vegas" synonymously. Which, of course, you've failed to address.
- Everything else is crystal clear and I've given it the consideration and response it deserves, IMO.

Your raving reminds me of an internship I did once where the guy in charge of my department was kind of... well I hesitate to characterize it because it could be construed that I'm personally insulting you, anyway, whenever anyone would challenge anything he'd say, HE'D JUST SAY IT LOUDER AS IF SOMEHOW VOLUME EQUALED TRUTH.

Ok, back to your ranting...

Quote: Ahigh

That's what experienced gamblers do, you know. They liquidate, and then play without limitations on the liquidated value. SCREW THE RULES! YOU CAN GET AROUND THEM IF YOU WANT AND IF YOU KNOW HOW!!!

The rules ONLY AFFECT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT EXPERIENCED AND ARE THE MOST LIKELY TO BE NEGATIVELY AFFECTED BY THE DETAILS OF HOW THE COUPONS CAN AND CANNOT BE USED.

The truth is that the CASINOS CHEAT BY NOT PAYING FULL AMOUNTS when the customer makes a STUPID BET BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.

The same customers that MIGHT ACTUALLY BE MORE LIKELY TO COME BACK IF IT WEREN'T FOR HAVING SUCH A CRAPPY EXPERIENCE DUE TO SOME BULLSHIT POLICY THAT THE CASINO MADE UP TO TRY TO EARN MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEY ARE LOSING SO BADLY.

...

"BECAUSE THE CASINO DOESN'T CARE IF YOU GET TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF AND THEY DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE FUN. THEY ONLY GIVE YOU THE COUPON TO GET YOUR ASS IN THE DOOR AND THAT IS IT!"

...

It's ALL BULLSHIT! Just like this coupon mess. All this stuff GOES AWAY IF YOU DON'T TRY TO LIE ABOUT HOW GREAT THE GODDAMN MOTHER FUCKING COUPON IS. All the people who look at this stuff know it's only worth half. QUIT PRETENDING YOU ARE GENIUSES OVER THERE IN CORPORATE CASINO LAND!

And he did that too. When volume wasn't truthy enough he'd haul out his limited and unimaginative vocabulary of swear words. Wow, very impressive sir.

The only thing I feel I'm entitled to when I go to a casino is a good time. I don't know where you infer that I have a sense of entitlement from anything that I've said.

But if it's not a casino acting like a loser, what is YOUR explanation for why casinos give out coupons that reflect twice the actual realistic value of the coupons on them?

Wouldn't a casino want to be up front about what they are giving you instead of trying to inflate the claims?

If casinos make so much money and are so successful, why do they do stuff like this? Why would Mandalay Bay give out casino comps that are only good for 48 hours without the stated restriction put on the comp? The guest is supposed to guess that it's only good for 48 hours?

Why would a casino put a limitation of "one coupon per guest per visit" when they really are enforcing "one coupon per party per visit?"

What is YOUR explanation for a casino that isn't having a really hard time paying the bills to do this?

I'll admit, this is just my personal perspective, and I still stand by the fact that the casinos are losing and it's easy to see from looking at publicly traded casino's balance sheets, but maybe you know more about that than I do? Just because you can't read a balance sheet doesn't mean I don't have a point, though. And it seems like that is what you're saying.

The casinos are sweating the small stuff because they are hurting, that's my explanation.

It's really simple to me.

Quote: PaiGowDan

Quote: Axiom

3. That "Oh - only those $5 Nickel joints prefer No Commission" - when the high-money players - who are the ones getting slammed with big commissions on their big money "even money" wins - strongly prefer not getting hit with these commissions.... You bet $10,000 at a high-limit Pai Gow game, you do NOT want to pay a $500 skim on it right back to the house! That's a hell of a car payment on just ONE bet's commission alone! And if you THINK that the Barona Casino, Pala Casino, and the Borgata Hotel are "low-roller joints," - then you know damn little about the gaming industry. ...Yet on a $5 game, the commission on a win is just a 25c quarter. As such, the commission games are tailored for low-stakes action. That's the real deal on this.

Ok, so high rollers are bad at math too. The don't like the $500 skim going back to the house on every win, but they are fine with the $10,000 skim when the dealer has a Q high. And they also don't mind the $10,000 skim every time one of their hands is a copy. People who have a clue do care about this, though. Congratulations, you have found a form of the game that takes advantage of the mathematically challenged. Are you sure that 6:5 wasn't your idea?

False.
Firstly, The 0.3% house edge improvement of EZ Pai Gow benefits the players regardless of their math ability. So this is not like 6:5 Blackjack, it is more like 2:1 on a blackjack, all things considered - INCLUDING banking.
Secondly, on a dealer's Queen-high push, - would you actually prefer that he get a full house and take your money? No. And would you rather get shortchanged on every win you scratch out - and at a higher house edge? Especially when you have to play against the house in order to bank a round? Apparently so. Now this is mathematically challenged.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

[in praising Player Banking]Ok, so, you think that a difference in HE of 1.4% is nothing. Got it. 6:5 BJ is perfect for you then.

This 1.4% banking edge is an issue of BANKING, - which EZ Pai Gow allows by casino choice, and is regardless of the Pai Gow's brand;
With house-banking being considered, EZ Pai Gow is 0.3% LOWER in house edge, - which makes it better for all regular non-banking CASINO PLAY. Remember, you have to play against the house in order to get to a banking opportunity

Quote: Axiomofchoice

At the place where I play I'm allowed to set my hand at the same time as the other players when I'm banking. So this doesn't exist

Huh? Again, these banking protocols (wait to set hand, eset at same time as fellow players, etc.) are set by the casino, regardless of which brand is being used.

(Dan notes that player bank roll coverage can be an issue, in addition to many players' issue with other player receiving what would otherwise be house wins"): Axiom: "Never once has this happened when I was banking."
Your experience is that of a single player, which is quite different from the problems of a casino, - which has to address the operational issues of many and any players, including the worth of banking to offer.

Quote: Axiom

You just said that you don't consider the house edge difference between allowing banking and not allowing banking to be significant. So, why don't you play 6:5, since the house edge difference is the same? Either you care about an extra 1.4% or you don't. I can assure you that the house cares about it.

I never said that, - I said that player banking has more casino operational considerations than one player's irresistable urge to bank, and I listed to operation concerns point by point.

Quote: Axiom

Quote: PaiGowdan

4. That I've been told "Oh! Your game sits idled when the other commission games get action." No, this is not the reports I get and need to Verify - in fact the table drop AND table hold stats of EZ Pai Gow, Fortune pai Gow, Emperor's Challenge, and Imperial Pai Gow are PUBLICLY listed side by side for ALL Missouri casinos, a good sample - and I can assure you that the EZ pai Gow numbers are strongest, - with increasing installs. Same in California and in New Jersey. In fact, You can examine these public numbers yourself at Missouri Gaming Commission Website. Please do so, so you can know what you're talking about.

I don't know anything about this. I have no idea how idle it is since I've yet to see it in an actual casino.

This is exactly my point. You sometimes know not of what you speak when you criticize, and when you could have checked the house edge math at the companion site, or gone to a place that had it, or at least accept that Player Banking is casino-dictated and so is brand independent. I mean, if you ARE going to bank, you might as well have a LOWER house edge during the non-banking rounds, right? This is not mathematically challenging, it mathematically inticing, - IF you're a player obsessed with fractions of a percentage of a decimal point.

Quote: Axiom

No thanks. I prefer the higher-end casinos. Maybe when your game makes it to the Venetian I'll take a look.

I know I'll be there this coming Thursday. The felts were installed today, and the dealers are training today and tomorrow, Tuesday. Now it may take a few more days to iron out last minute glitches, but if all goes well and training is completed, we anticipate the "go-live" to be mid-week week.

Quote: Switch

Dan, I don't feel that you really have to defend whether EZPaiGow is successful or not, the results speak for themselves. Over 60 installations with almost zero returns equals a very successful game AND the momentum seems to be continuing.

Not everyone will prefer EZPG but, personally, I do. I like the full payout on a win and understand that occasionally the dealer will get a Q high and I will push.

Congratulations on your success and being one of a handful of people in your position in the development of casino games.

You're right. Actually I do not have to. But I will address open frabrications and falsehood assumptions about her (EZ Pai Gow), much as anyone would address someone who's talking trash about one's daughter or old lady.

Quote: Paigowdan

This 1.4% banking edge is an issue of BANKING, - which EZ Pai Gow allows by casino choice, and is regardless of the Pai Gow's brand;

Fair enough. As I said, I've never seen the game, so I'm basing everything I say on the Wizard's page. The wizard says that one of the differences between PGP and EZ PGP is that in EZ PGP, "Most casino's do not allow player banking". The statement is right there, front and center on the page; you couldn't possibly miss it. It specifically says that that's one of the 4 rule changes to get from PGP to EZ PGP.

If that's not true, and this is not a difference between the games, then you should really consider asking him to change the page, since that one difference more than doubles the house edge and turns a playable game into a non-playable one.

If that is a difference between the games, then I stand by everything that I've said. As far as I'm concerned, any game with a 2.5% house edge (and, worse, a 2.5% element of risk) is a sucker's game. Even the carnie games, which tend to have high house edges, let you get more money in play at an advantage to lower the element of risk (eg, MS Stud). In fact, off the top of my head, the ONLY table game that I can think of with greater than 2.5% element of risk is roulette.

In short, PGP without banking is one of the biggest sucker games in the casino. You are ahead of the slot players, the keno players, and the roulette players... that's just about it. Am I missing any?

deleted

I think that Pai Gow Poker is probably better than most other carnival game out there. In fact, I think Blackjack, Bacarrat, and some forms of craps are better. UTH and Texas Hold em Bonus are slightly better games as well at around 2.1% with perfect strategy. Let it Ride, 3 Card, 4 Card, and other games are worse games.

Blackjack may be a .6% game but the hands go much faster. And that's what I like about Pai Gow Poker. It's a slow game, where players take their times setting their hands and the payout is slower.

But Axiom makes a valid argument. For a "professional" Pai Gow player, it's important that they are able to bank as much as possible to lower the house advantage. And when I am playing heads up against the dealer, that's exactly what I do -- bank every other hand, as it halves the house edge. Being able to play heads up for 2 hours at say $50/hand at 1 hand per minute (120 hands) means $6,000 bet and an expected loss of $72 dollars vs $144, which is not insignificant. Of course your actual results will vary greatly due to the variance.

If Axiom had two tables side by side (or in Vegas' case MGM on one side of the street and CZR on the other), with one offering banking and the other not, which should he play? I know that if I had heads up play and the casino didn't offer banking, I'd walk. So would alot of players who bank when they are playing heads up or when there are only a couple of players at the table (which is counterintuitive -- you want to have a full table when you bank).

It is pretty much the same difference as 3:2 blackjack vs 6:5, and in terms of expected loss, it's a valid argument - absolutely.

For the casino, yes, banking is a pain in the butt. It slows the game down. Players choose not to play against the banking player because they want the casino's money, not the player's. And I have seen, many times, banking players get upset when they lose to other players playing against them. But I also think that they know that not offering the bank will result in losing some players.

My prediction is that like 3CP going to a 1-3-6 pay table, there will be a gentleman's agreement between Sands, MGM, CZR, and Wynn to pull banking for PGP off of the floor and offer it only in the high limit rooms. Because once it is offered nowhere, people who enjoy PGP just won't bank anymore and will accept the changed nature of the game.

Quote: sodawater

EZPGP is better than sic bo too

Ahhh, good ol' sic bo. Good point; I had forgotten about that. I guess it's better than the big six wheel too.

Quote: boymimbo

I think that Pai Gow Poker is probably better than most other carnival game out there. In fact, I think Blackjack, Bacarrat, and some forms of craps are better. UTH and Texas Hold em Bonus are slightly better games as well at around 2.1% with perfect strategy. Let it Ride, 3 Card, 4 Card, and other games are worse games.

I don't think it's fair to just compare house when comparing to carnie games. You need to compare element of risk, as the Wizard usually does when comparing games, since that's a measure of the house edge on the total amounts bet (rather than just the initial bet). With a game like Mississippi Stud, the house edge is a massive 4.91% of the ante, but, you need to look at the element of risk, not just the first bet made. The reason is, you are not going to bet the same amount on the ante in MS stud as you would on a single hand of PGP. Just to see a hand through to the end costs 4x the ante. When you take that into account, MS Stud has a lower HE than no-player-banking PGP.

Quote:

Blackjack may be a .6% game but the hands go much faster. And that's what I like about Pai Gow Poker. It's a slow game, where players take their times setting their hands and the payout is slower.

In fairness, I consider a .6% game a bad game. You can find games in the 0.2% to 0.3% range if you are willing to bet black. In general I would rather play a game with half the house edge, even if I have to double the stakes. May as well get comped for those expected losses! :)

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For the casino, yes, banking is a pain in the butt. It slows the game down. Players choose not to play against the banking player because they want the casino's money, not the player's.

I HAVE seen this. I find that saying something like "I'm just here to gamble -- I like the extra action! And, if I'm going to lose my money gambling, I'd rather lose it to you than to the house!" is enough to get them to play anyway. And I always congratulate them (heart-felt -- not sarcastically) if they have a good hand.

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And I have seen, many times, banking players get upset when they lose to other players playing against them.

That's just dumb. If you can't handle the action, don't bank. Personally, I haven't seen this... hopefully, I never will.

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But I also think that they know that not offering the bank will result in losing some players.

Definitely, and this is the point.

Quote:

My prediction is that like 3CP going to a 1-3-6 pay table, there will be a gentleman's agreement between Sands, MGM, CZR, and Wynn to pull banking for PGP off of the floor and offer it only in the high limit rooms. Because once it is offered nowhere, people who enjoy PGP just won't bank anymore and will accept the changed nature of the game.

I'm already used to having to go to the high limit room to get a decent blackjack game (although some places do have them out in the open too). But I'm not sure that people will just accept the changed game, any more than they just accept 6:5 blackjack. Sure, some people will, but I think that with a 2.5% element of risk, a lot of people will just find that their money doesn't last long enough. You can just go over to baccarat and your money will last over twice as long (more, actually, since most players don't bet every hand)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

This is a big mistake, SOOPOO. You should be more willing to bank when there are other players at the table, if you can cover them, and especially when they are not banking. Banking half the hands at a full table is a very good deal -- You can actually play with an edge in this case (although the swings are big).

It all depends on what your goals are. I agree with you that from a purely EV standpoint having as many players bet against me is in my best interests. But from a 'risk of ruin' standpoint, it clearly is not. My goal is to have my limited gambling bankroll last for at least the time I planned on being at the casino, and not to increasse variance to possibly have a big win. Many times I am the 'helper' at my local pai gow table, with me having access to seeing 35 cards. It occassionally allows for strategy changes (I'll treat a KQ as an ace, if I know the dealer cannot have an ace, and keep two pairs together that I would usually split, eg.). I would feel wrong then about banking against these weak players, I prefer to give up that +EV to be able to help them. By the way, with dealer errors, and generally weak house ways, and the extra information often available to me, I don't know if I've turned a negative EV game into a positive. I do know overall I am up at pai gow cards, and that does not even include comps.
Your point about how the game is a bit different for black chip players might be true, but only a small percentage of pai gow players fit that bill.

Quote: SOOPOO

It all depends on what your goals are. I agree with you that from a purely EV standpoint having as many players bet against me is in my best interests. But from a 'risk of ruin' standpoint, it clearly is not. My goal is to have my limited gambling bankroll last for at least the time I planned on being at the casino, and not to increasse variance to possibly have a big win. Many times I am the 'helper' at my local pai gow table, with me having access to seeing 35 cards. It occassionally allows for strategy changes (I'll treat a KQ as an ace, if I know the dealer cannot have an ace, and keep two pairs together that I would usually split, eg.). I would feel wrong then about banking against these weak players, I prefer to give up that +EV to be able to help them. By the way, with dealer errors, and generally weak house ways, and the extra information often available to me, I don't know if I've turned a negative EV game into a positive. I do know overall I am up at pai gow cards, and that does not even include comps.
Your point about how the game is a bit different for black chip players might be true, but only a small percentage of pai gow players fit that bill.

The casino lets you see the other players cards and give them help before setting your own hand?

Quote: Ahigh

The only thing I feel I'm entitled to when I go to a casino is a good time. I don't know where you infer that I have a sense of entitlement from anything that I've said.

But if it's not a casino acting like a loser, what is YOUR explanation for why casinos give out coupons that reflect twice the actual realistic value of the coupons on them?

Wouldn't a casino want to be up front about what they are giving you instead of trying to inflate the claims?

If casinos make so much money and are so successful, why do they do stuff like this? Why would Mandalay Bay give out casino comps that are only good for 48 hours without the stated restriction put on the comp? The guest is supposed to guess that it's only good for 48 hours?

Why would a casino put a limitation of "one coupon per guest per visit" when they really are enforcing "one coupon per party per visit?"

What is YOUR explanation for a casino that isn't having a really hard time paying the bills to do this?

I'll admit, this is just my personal perspective, and I still stand by the fact that the casinos are losing and it's easy to see from looking at publicly traded casino's balance sheets, but maybe you know more about that than I do? Just because you can't read a balance sheet doesn't mean I don't have a point, though. And it seems like that is what you're saying.

The casinos are sweating the small stuff because they are hurting, that's my explanation.

It's really simple to me.

1. You seem to think that you are entitled to feed your friends, while the casino seems to think you are entitled to feed yourself.
2. The casino is using the generally misleading 'twice the actual value' dollar value on the free bet or match play the way many businesses do. Just like many businesses have a 'buy one get one free' but you know the price on the original is jacked up. I know exactly what a 'match play' is worth, and then either choose to go to the casino offering it or not.
3. As far as using 4 coupons for you and your friends, I would have expected the casino to not allow it, according to what was written on the coupon. The casino does have the 'regular' comp system, which you could have used. As much as you play there I am stunned you didn't have that much in comps available.
4. I agree, the casino's are sweating the small stuff. But I would think most players would expect those behaviors, and not be surprised. Most understand that the casino is in business to make a buck, and devise their policies to maximize that. I think you are an outlier in your disdain for these policies. But, of course, if you find a casino that better suits your needs, then you will have voted with your feet against the Silverton, and if enough others do so (I doubt it), then they will either have to change their policies or face more customer loss.

I haven't spoken with you since your 'Silverton' incident, but I'd bet $1 that you are still going there....

Quote: SOOPOO

I haven't spoken with you since your 'Silverton' incident, but I'd bet $1 that you are still going there....

I still have $40 free food coupons. The last time I went I ate and didn't gamble.

Quote: Ahigh

The only thing I feel I'm entitled to when I go to a casino is a good time. I don't know where you infer that I have a sense of entitlement from anything that I've said.

Since you conveniently ignore everything I have to say I'm going to give you the same courtesy and ignore the rest of your post.

They don't have to give you any freebies or discounts of any kind, yet they do, and you complain. That's a demonstration of your entitlement. You seem to feel that they owe you something that you are in fact not entitled to at all. They offer it in hopes that you'll come to their place of business and either make coming to them a habit for the future, or spend more than their cost to get you there. Both ways are an attempt by a business to make a profit. If you fundamentally disagree with their right to try to make a profit through promotional offers I think we're at an impasse.

Here's the bottom line, as far as I can tell: If you don't like the offers they send to you, or the restrictions they place on them, don't use them, or don't go to that casino. The offers don't come in the mail with a tiny guy inside the envelope with a gun that forces you to go to the casino, right?

Take some personal responsibility for your "problem".

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Since you conveniently ignore everything I have to say I'm going to give you the same courtesy and ignore the rest of your post.

They don't have to give you any freebies or discounts of any kind, yet they do, and you complain. That's a demonstration of your entitlement. You seem to feel that they owe you something that you are in fact not entitled to at all. They offer it in hopes that you'll come to their place of business and either make coming to them a habit for the future, or spend more than their cost to get you there. Both ways are an attempt by a business to make a profit. If you fundamentally disagree with their right to try to make a profit through promotional offers I think we're at an impasse.

Here's the bottom line, as far as I can tell: If you don't like the offers they send to you, or the restrictions they place on them, don't use them, or don't go to that casino. The offers don't come in the mail with a tiny guy inside the envelope with a gun that forces you to go to the casino, right?

Take some personal responsibility for your "problem".

I think you lost track of the context of my characterizing the casinos as losers.

Quote: NokTang

Quote: Ahigh

Absolutely mesmerizing!

Agree it's sort of mesmerizing. The mind wanders. However, since reading and keeping up(not that there's much news) on the recent Golden Nuggett(in AC) story(with the pre-shuffled decks sequences being discovered by the players), the Wynn accusations of dice sliding and suing the winning players, and the one with Phil Ivey in London(winning 10million dollars(7something Pounds) at Baccarat), I'm starting to lose faith in casino's paying big winners. I know it's only three stories, but recent and just puts a different slant on big action. If the casino's aren't going to pay what's the point and mesmerizing? I'm sure they will keep the losing "whales" money.

Quote: Ahigh

You know what? The casinos are among the biggest losers. I was just having this conversation with someone else. But BYD and MGM and Stations and other Casino property owners are among the biggest losers there are!

The Wynn and LVS are a couple of winners, but most casino properties are losing.

Losers will be losers whether they are a corporation or individual hardly matters.

I'm not COMPLAINING, I'm EXPLAINING.

And I'm not sure who used the word problem from which you quoted. The only problem in this context is that the casinos are conducting themselves like losers! And that is what I am pointing out.

If you want to point out that the casinos are winning, maybe the burden of proof should be on you!

I'm just pointing out that when a person or a business is not making good on a payment or is conducting itself in a way that is not in good faith of what is expected by the other party (in this case the customer of the casino) it's quite possible that a reasonable expectation is that the party that is not making good on the contract, whether verbal, written, implied, or OTHERWISE, is quite possible a deadbeat or loser.

Now if you have some issue with me characterizing a casino as a loser, I apologize for you having an issue with that.

But if you want to go on and say that I have a problem, I am very curious for you to explain to me what that problem is.

The only problem I have had in this discussion is your lack of ability to comprehend how a loser can continue to function as a business and pay its employees and continue operating even though they are in an unsustainable losing trend of operating their business.

Quote: Ahigh

I think you lost track of the context of my characterizing the casinos as losers.

I think we may disagree.
..

Quote: Ahigh

I'm not COMPLAINING, I'm EXPLAINING.

No. This is a complete lie.
You were outright complaining: bitcthing, moaning, crying, Wailing, stomping your feet temper tamtrums with f-bombs COMPLAINING....in black and white...that those no good, lying, cheating, sack of stinking sh[t CASINOS were really being bad to you, for having the NERVE to send you, complimentary free bet tickets - by their marketing consideration - free bet tickets that you just as easily could have ignored as junk mail if you wanted to. they sent it to you both as a consideration and as a marketing stimulus, - but in your hands, BOY did it backfire. Yeow. You got on a public gaming forum and publicly CONDEMNED the Gaming business for it. If I worked in the marketing department, I would have removed your name, Aaron Hightower, from all the mailing lists, AND zeroed out your comps, using a printout of your "appreciation" of their generosity and consideration, as a justification - in a second! A nanosecond. Zap.

Quote: AHigh

If you want to point out that the casinos are winning, maybe the burden of proof should be on you!

How so? Are their lights out? Do their payroll checks bounce? Are they talked about? What criteria in the world are you using??

Quote: AHigh

I'm just pointing out that when a person or a business is not making good on a payment or is conducting itself in a way that is not in good faith of what is expected by the other party (in this case the customer of the casino) it's quite possible that a reasonable expectation is that the party that is not making good on the contract, whether verbal, written, implied, or OTHERWISE, is quite possible a deadbeat or loser.

I've never had a problem with free bet tickets, or match play coupons, as I appreciate them, and understand how they work.
1. Come in;
2. Use them;
3. Get some free action, and be thankful for it.
That simple. Having a good time IS ON YOU and your good faith - and I will go out on a limb to say that oftentimes, you sound MISERABLE and hostile towards them, for no good reason on them.

Quote: AHigh

Now if you have some issue with me characterizing a casino as a loser, I apologize for you having an issue with that.

In terms of "being a loser," the casino is not the one we're questioning.....................................................................

Quote: AHigh

But if you want to go on and say that I have a problem, I am very curious for you to explain to me what that problem is.

Been there, tried that, that didn't work. It's self-evident anyway. It's called an attitude problem from a free gift.

Quote: AHigh

The only problem I have had in this discussion is your lack of ability to comprehend how a loser can continue to function as a business and pay its employees and continue operating even though they are in an unsustainable losing trend of operating their business.

Maybe it's because they're not the losers.

Well, there's absolutely disagreement. I have a problem with the details of how the system is designed to confuse and mislead people, not with someone giving me something for free.

You guys seem to want to think that this is a personal problem that I have that I am upset about being ripped off or something, it's not.

I have a problem with the WAY that the casinos treat EVERYONE with regards to the details of how these promotions are designed.

It's not a personal thing between me and the casino.

It's a point that I am making about the practice that the casinos lead customers into a corner and then the customer ends up being unhappily surprised.

If the marketing folks want to remove me from coupon lists, that's absolutely fine with me. And sure, I don't think I would be surprised. I've been removed from coupon promotions before, and I just stop going to that place.

And the risk of someone being put on a list by a marketing department for bringing light to a negative situation is absolutely a risk I'm willing to take.

As far as my cursing and making a big deal about it, SO WHAT? I think it is a big deal. But it has nothing to do with me versus the casinos. It has everything to do with the casinos versus all of their patrons.

If it were just me that this was affecting, I would not have said one single word. Again there is context under which this conversation came about.

I continue to believe that the way that most casinos in Las Vegas conduct themselves with regards to promotions and comps reflects poorly on the casinos. Most people just accept it without complaining. That doesn't mean I don't have a valid complaint or that there is anything wrong with me being willing to accept free stuff.

Totally different issues.

A couple of thoughts:

Casinos can go on for years at a loss by doing a few things. First, they can renegotiate their debts. An Interest "expense" does not represent an amount paid in interest -- it represent what has been accrued as interest and does not represent the cash paid to its borrowers. Secondly, the amortization and depreciation on a building is a non-cash item that represents a gigantic expense on the books. When a casino builds its structure or purchases something which it plans to keep for a time and has a value (such as computer hardware, craps tables, etc), it records it as an asset which amortizes over its expected life of the asset. On the other side of the coin is the equity (stock purchased by shareholders) and the liability to its creditors.

All casinos on the strip are bringing in a pile of cash into the corporations, but the cash it is bringing in is not sufficient to overcome the depreciation on the building. The cash that the casino brings in can pay all of its current expenses and liabilities and also generates enough cash to pay down some of its long term loans.

And while the casinos on the strip are "losing", the casinos that are not on the strip are doing exceptionally well. MGM, Sands, and Wynn's Asian operations are keeping these companies as a whole quite profitable. MGM was able to withstand the s**tstorm that was the CitiCentre. CZR is a different story because their non-strip properties are mostly domestic or in the European market which is also suffering.

But the casinos will remain open as long as the cash flow is able to contribute for the company's overhead. There will always be shareholders and bondholders willing to take the risks on these properties and they receive higher returns for their investments (provided they don't go belly-up).


----
When I read Ahigh's antics of cashing in the match play coupon for $12 at the roulette table, I just felt that the spirit of the promotion was really beyond him. The goal of these coupons, including food coupons, free shows, match plays, is mainly to get the player to come in to the property and play. Of course you can calculate the expected value of any match play coupon or any coupon for anything. Food coupons are never worth face value because the food is being charged to you greater than cost. When I account for the $40 buffet coupon that I get each month, my thought is that replaces the value of a meal I don't have to make at home. The value of that coupon to me is closer to $15 because that's the cost of a good meal that I can make at home. Of course, if I am busy the value of the coupon goes up substantially, especially if my wife's making me do the dishes that night.

When I look at a match play coupon or "free play" coupon, I think it gives me nearly an even shot to get free money. If I play it on PGP, I know that I have a 48% chance of getting the value of the coupon. There are two states: win the value of the coupon or nothing. I don't try to sell the coupon for its expected value because really it just takes the fun out of the coupon. And frankly, when you are spending hours and hours and hours in a casino a $12 swing on a $25 match play is meaningless compared to all of the possible states out there.

---

I've never walked into a casino with a coupon and left the casino with a bad taste in my mouth. The coupons that I receive are fairly self-explanatory and easy to understand.

A player gets a $25 match coupon but only has $20 in cash. I don't see the problem there. It's a match coupon and is very self-explanatory -- the casino matches the bet. And that match coupon is not transferrable to someone else, because that player earned it.

You receive a $40 food coupon that YOU earned through YOUR play. Obviously that coupon is non-transferrable, and if a casino does not have that marked plainly on the coupon, then clearly, yes, there's a problem with that casino. But I know that when I receive complimentary gifts for my casino, I can't give them to someone on the street and say "here you go". I also know that, however, my coupons for turkey dollars at my local Foodland are completely transferrable, and I plan to give them to my local foodbank. When the restaurant says "one person per coupon per visit", it applies to the owner of the coupon. The owner simply cannot give the coupon to other people and have them use it. If that were the case, I'd be on the corner, inviting three strangers to come and dine with me at 1/2 price, charge them $20 and give them a $40 coupon. Would that be fair?

Air Canada had that problem years ago. Their most frequent flyers got coupons for System-Wide upgrades based on thresholds based on miles flown. They would get a coupon for an upgrade to business class for every 20K miles earned. The problem is that these coupons were mailed to the customer and weren't linked to the member. As a result, even though it stated in large print that the coupon was non-transferrable, there was nothing stopping a customer from selling the coupon because their name was not on the coupon and Air Canada didn't track the coupon to the customer. So, every January and February you would see these things pop up on E-Bay or on the airline forums for sale, and Air Canada would waste its resources tracking down the seller and closing down the sale. So, Air Canada came up with a system where the credits were tracked to your rewards tracking number -- problem solved.

My goal, for anyone confused, is actually to help the casinos do better business. It's my opinion that they are overlooking some of the negative experiences related to match play and free-bet coupons that only pay even money. It has become such an accepted practice to inflate the perceived value of a coupon that it has become "normal" to almost everyone with experience with these coupons in Vegas.

But let me ask a challenging question: where does it end? What if the coupon said "$100 free bet" but you had to parlay it on an even money bet and win a bet twice to get your $100 win? I hesitate to even mention the idea of having a free bet that says "$100" that is actually worth less than a quarter the printed value instead of a half, because I imagine somewhere some marketing guys is saying to himself "genius! great idea!"

My point is that a scam is a scam is a scam. Casinos shouldn't be misleading the public no matter how "adjusted" everybody is to it. There is still the guy who has never gambled before and had elevated expectations the first go-round.

The thing that happened at Mandalay Bay where they refused to pay my bet because the chip wasn't exactly in the right place begs this question: for this not to be a scam of theirs, I would have to know they wouldn't "accidentally" take my money if I didn't win the bet.

And it's the exact same thing to me. There are many gray areas like this, and in all of these gray areas, the casinos should be taking the high road instead of taking advantage of the customer. It just makes the casinos come across as not playing fair.

And that's pretty much the end of that. Extending the notion that those who don't play fair are doing so because they are sore for being a loser or trying to tighten their belt and take any penny they can find anywhere is maybe even a secondary step.

But I think casinos should care more about their image than they do in fact care. That is all.

" That is all. " I will take odds it is not. LOL

Quote: Ahigh

I think you lost track of the context of my characterizing the casinos as losers.

Well, it keeps shifting so I suppose that's possible. How about, instead of idle speculation about it on your part you go ahead and articulate how you think I've lost track. As far as I can tell:
- You originally thought "the casinos" (and later "Las Vegas") were losers because their stock prices were... well, I'm not sure because what I looked at seemed to indicate the prices were going up. But it definitely had something to do with actual financial matters.
- Then you said they were losers, in a douchey sort of way, because of how they treat customers.

That about sum it up?

Quote: Ahigh

I'm not COMPLAINING, I'm EXPLAINING.

We may have to agree to disagree on this point. I've heard lots of complaining rants, and I've heard lots of logical explanations (I managed to eek out a college degree before I threw my life away in the gaming industry), and I'm pretty sure I can tell the two of them apart. Explanations having much fewer (like none), swear words in them.

But whatever, I don't even care, you're certainly allowed to demonstrate your intellectual capacity in any manner you see fit. And I think you've accomplished that goal admirably.

Quote: Ahigh

And I'm not sure who used the word problem from which you quoted. The only problem in this context is that the casinos are conducting themselves like losers! And that is what I am pointing out.

I put quotes around it because you're going on and on like it's a problem but it's not. Thus, it's a "problem". You may be confused because some members here don't know how to use an internet forum quoting system, I am not one of them. When I quote it's attributed to the original writer.

Quote: Ahigh

If you want to point out that the casinos are winning, maybe the burden of proof should be on you!

That's not really a goal I set out to accomplish, but if you need some sort of proof pop into most places on a Friday or Saturday night and take a look around.

Quote: Ahigh

I'm just pointing out that when a person or a business is not making good on a payment or is conducting itself in a way that is not in good faith of what is expected by the other party (in this case the customer of the casino) it's quite possible that a reasonable expectation is that the party that is not making good on the contract, whether verbal, written, implied, or OTHERWISE, is quite possible a deadbeat or loser.

This actually gets to the heart of the matter. My education was in public relations and marketing and I've got to tell you, your reaction is expected. It's calculated in and taken into account. Then the promotion proceeds if it seems it will be profitable. You, apparently, are not the target demographic of the promotions. That's why no one at the casino cares that you're upset. I don't want to give a big marketing lecture that no one will actually read but this is actually a very simple matter. Marketing is designed to appeal to a narrow demographic, it has to be unless the product being sold is a commodity, then it's sold on price, not the story. Casinos are all about the story. Walmart is where you buy goods sold as a commodity. No one walks around all day with a bag from walmart to show their exclusive taste, but they will drag that Starbucks cup around all day, refilling it with whatever is handy, just so you'll know they go to Starbucks. That's telling a story about who you are and what great taste you have. Casinos likewise sell a story. The fact that you're offended by it tell me you're not the demographic they're trying to reach.

Quote: Ahigh

Now if you have some issue with me characterizing a casino as a loser, I apologize for you having an issue with that.

Oh my, aren't you clever. Nope, I have no issue with your "problem". Continue having it if it's working for you, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Quote: Ahigh

But if you want to go on and say that I have a problem, I am very curious for you to explain to me what that problem is.

Now we're getting into EvenBob territory. The problem has already been explained ad nauseum. If you're confused go back and read the thread again, feel free to skip over the shots at PaigowDan about EZPaigow as they have nothing to do with this.

Quote: Ahigh

The only problem I have had in this discussion is your lack of ability to comprehend how a loser can continue to function as a business and pay its employees and continue operating even though they are in an unsustainable losing trend of operating their business.

Again, it seems like this is your problem. You can remove just a few words from that last quote and it sums up your confusion pretty accurately. Let's try it!

Quote: Ahigh

The only problem I have had in this discussion is your (the) lack of ability to comprehend how a loser can continue to function as a business and pay its employees and continue operating even though they are in an unsustainable losing trend of operating their business.

The simple answer is: You are wrong.

Quote: Ahigh

Well, there's absolutely disagreement. I have a problem with the details of how the system is designed to confuse and mislead people, not with someone giving me something for free.

Maybe you're picking the wrong time to learn the details. Maybe before you sit down and eat $200 worth of food you should ask if the comps or coupons or whatever you have can be stacked. This is like when a player plops down in a chair, buys in, puts money in the betting area, receives cards and then says, "Wait, this isn't blackjack!?" "No sir, it's Let It Ride." The time to clarify matters was before there was money and cards on the table, now we're mid-game and it's hard to go back.

Quote: Ahigh

You guys seem to want to think that this is a personal problem that I have that I am upset about being ripped off or something, it's not.

When the ratio is millions of people enjoying a promotion to a few that are bitter about it, it is a personal problem for those that are bitter.

Quote: Ahigh

I have a problem with the WAY that the casinos treat EVERYONE with regards to the details of how these promotions are designed.

May I suggest a mask and cape then? We could have a poll for what your superhero name should be, I'll throw "CompMan" into the ring. Let's see what others come up with.

Quote: Ahigh

It's not a personal thing between me and the casino.

It's a point that I am making about the practice that the casinos lead customers into a corner and then the customer ends up being unhappily surprised.

And that's why you'd make the perfect champion for this cause.

Quote: Ahigh

If the marketing folks want to remove me from coupon lists, that's absolutely fine with me. And sure, I don't think I would be surprised. I've been removed from coupon promotions before, and I just stop going to that place.

I know I would. I wouldn't give freebies or discounts to the ungrateful.

Quote: Ahigh

And the risk of someone being put on a list by a marketing department for bringing light to a negative situation is absolutely a risk I'm willing to take.

And that's another reason you'd make the perfect champion for this cause.

Quote: Ahigh

As far as my cursing and making a big deal about it, SO WHAT? I think it is a big deal. But it has nothing to do with me versus the casinos. It has everything to do with the casinos versus all of their patrons.

If it were just me that this was affecting, I would not have said one single word.

Put some patriotic music behind this and have you say it from atop a tall building and I think we've got the intro for your reality show.

Quote: Ahigh

My goal, for anyone confused,

I think the line forms behind you.

Quote: Ahigh

is actually to help the casinos do better business. It's my opinion that they are overlooking some of the negative experiences related to match play and free-bet coupons that only pay even money. It has become such an accepted practice to inflate the perceived value of a coupon that it has become "normal" to almost everyone with experience with these coupons in Vegas.

I don't know where this "normal" came from that you quoted but it certainly wasn't from the gaming industry. Oh wait, you do understand what it means to put quotes around a word. Irony or willful deceit? We may never know.

Quote: Ahigh

But let me ask a challenging question: where does it end?

Challenging for who? This isn't rocket surgery, it ends when it stops working. When people don't like the offer and don't respond to it. Easy peasy.

I didn't bother with the rest, it was boring and I have better things to do. Besides I've already given you more than enough to ignore and go on bellowing about the unfairness of it all. Good luck.

" Now we're getting into EvenBob territory. " You said that like it was a bad thing !

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Do you have a source for this assertion? I'd live to take a look.

Ultimately we're going back and forth on this issue based on your personal bias.

I still hold, let's just call them, my opinions that casinos (some not all let's not argue about which) are losing and acting like losers.

It sounds like you're in the group of those employed for which I am holding an opinion are acting like losers.

It was not meant to be personal, but I still feel that way in spite of all your responses, and in some cases, further strengthened by your responses.

You can't change the fact that I have had bad experiences as a result of these ridiculous corporate policies for which I have been at the receiving end of.

You can't change the fact that these experiences lessened the entertainment value, for which is the only legitimate function of a casino to provide.

You can't change my opinion that I think the explanation for why these experiences occurred was as a result of a failure on part of corporate casino policies that failed to prevent this from happening to me, whether it was projected and accepted as a casualty for a great economic good or not, that greater economic good that you're going for is a dying gasp in some cases and for some casinos. That is my ultimate point. That it is sad that these policies are created in the first place.

Thanks for your input from an insider's perspective, but it changes none of my opinions about these things.

Let me reiterate once again, I am the customer here. I will continue to do my best to decide which casinos I wish to visit based on a variety of factors, but will include how they treat me in regards to issues such as this.

If I'm the only one who feels this way, that's great. And it seems like you would like to think that way. So I hope for your sake and the sake of your future livelihood that you're right about that.

Quote: Buzzard

" Now we're getting into EvenBob territory. " You said that like it was a bad thing !

Nah, just making the point that asking for something over and over after it's already been provided doesn't work. It didn't work for EvenBob and it won't work for Ahigh. Denying the obvious seems to be a trait they share. And it ended so badly for EB, self-imposed exile is a sad thing.

Quote: Ahigh

Ultimately we're going back and forth on this issue based on your personal bias.

My personal bias has nothing to do with you being upset at your lack of understanding about certain promotions. I neither designed the promotions nor led you to believe that they were anything that they were not. Again, personal responsibility, take it.

Quote: Ahigh

I still hold, let's just call them, my opinions that casinos (some not all let's not argue about which) are losing and acting like losers.

It sounds like you're in the group of those employed for which I am holding an opinion are acting like losers.

Oh does it? Now I'm going to cry.

Quote: Ahigh

It was not meant to be personal, but I still feel that way in spite of all your responses, and in some cases, further strengthened by your responses.

Ok.

Quote: Ahigh

You can't change the fact that I have had bad experiences as a result of these ridiculous corporate policies for which I have been at the receiving end of.

You can't change the fact that these experiences lessened the entertainment value, for which is the only legitimate function of a casino to provide.

Are you sure? What you don't know is that I possess a TIME MACHINE! And I can change anything I want.

Did that sound delusional? If yes, then now you know how it feels.

Quote: Ahigh

You can't change my opinion that I think the explanation for why these experiences occurred was as a result of a failure on part of corporate casino policies that failed to prevent this from happening to me, whether it was projected and accepted as a casualty for a great economic good or not, that greater economic good that you're going for is a dying gasp in some cases and for some casinos. That is my ultimate point. That it is sad that these policies are created in the first place.

The bolded part above is why you're having a difficult time with this. You live in a different reality and no one is going to talk you down. Good luck with that.

Quote: Ahigh

Thanks for your input from an insider's perspective, but it changes none of my opinions about these things.

The truth seldom has that effect on the fanatical. Life goes on.

Quote: Ahigh

Let me reiterate once again, I am the customer here. I will continue to do my best to decide which casinos I wish to visit based on a variety of factors, but will include how they treat me in regards to issues such as this.

You know how you went on about how I should learn to read a financial sheet (like the ones that seemed to prove you incorrect with their rising stock prices)? Here's my advice to you, learn something about marketing, it will uncloud some aspects of your world view and when you understand the world better it will be a less frustrating place. Your expectations are misaligned. I don't know how they got that way but until you get this corrected you will continue to experience these issues.

Quote: Ahigh

If I'm the only one who feels this way, that's great. And it seems like you would like to think that way. So I hope for your sake and the sake of your future livelihood that you're right about that.

Well, let's see...
- I never said, or even implied that you were the only one that felt that way, just that it was a seriously minority position.
- I don't depend on a job in the gaming industry, I have plenty of options, I enjoy the work and I find the people fascinating. Especially when they fanatically cling to misconceptions.
- You've done nothing to illustrate that the gaming industry is in distress overall. I would agree things look a little bleak in AC, but there will be a shake out and life will go on. This is a natural cycle and it's not alarming to see it in action.

So it seems we can add reading comprehension to the list of things that aren't your forte.

Tell ya what, I'm going to post this, then I'm going to unsubscribe from the thread and you can have the last word because I've already devoted way more to this than I ever intended. Good luck with your unchangeable, let's call them, opinions.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

So it seems we can add reading comprehension to the list of things that aren't your forte.

Tell ya what, I'm going to post this, then I'm going to unsubscribe from the thread and you can have the last word because I've already devoted way more to this than I ever intended. Good luck with your unchangeable, let's call them, opinions.

Best thing you've said so far. Enjoy your time away, and best of luck to you in the future!

Ahigh,
I do support MonkeyMoney, in the sense that casino comps, - or anything that gives value back to the players, - "casino largess," so to speak, should be endorsed and applauded, instead of criticised and called conspiracy. Would anyone prefer that they NOT give value back to us steady players? No. You're certainly in the minority with a marginal view for a reason. Such things a free meals, rooms, and movies (comps), free bet tickets, and promo game rule nights ARE of great value to us players, and should be appreciated instead of condemned. Every time.

Any argument that "Free bet coupons are complicated and misleading" is false. It's straightforward. Free action is simply that, and it has value. It's a gift, because they do not have to do it. As gamblers, we'll still play, so it's all a bonus win for us.

And the argument that "it's a conspiracy to get us to play" is weak - because as gamblers, we'll go there to play anyway, - so let them add to us this additional value and appreciation, and fight for our business.

And MonkeyMonkey had to refute contrary arguments, and call it as he saw it. He was trying to get you to "get it," to see and accept this. It's a little bit of largess, not a lot of conspiracy. Nothing really mysterious about a free bet coupon: you win, you get real cash-value chips, and they take the coupon, as it is a one-time bet. Not hard.

And to get back to the thread of basically, "Casino kicks out player for gawking a high roller," they were obviously trying to appease and add value for a valuable player. One can argue that people gambling at a gambling hall should mind their own pints and quarts, and focus on their own money. Arguable, but I can see that view.

They can certainly be misleading sometimes, though not always.

I've seen promos that said something like: "Sign up for a player's card, and your first $1000 loss is on us!". What they mean is, if you lose $1000, they will give you $1000 in "free bet" chips, which, as discussed here, have a value of about $500 (maybe a little more if you are wise in how you bet them, probably a little less for most people)

Now, this is still a good deal, but it's marketed in a misleading way. The headline leads one to believe that they are giving you something worth $1000, when, in fact, they are really doing is giving you something worth about $500. For most people (not mathematically inclined), even when they read the fine print, they probably think, oh, it's like getting $1000 to gamble with. But, no, really, it's like getting $500 to gamble with. Yes, still a good deal, but, no, not as good as you thought.

So, yeah, it can be misleading. Selfishly, it doesn't bother me too much (since I know what I'm getting and know how to extract max value, so I won't be fooled) but I think it's a little sleazy to take advantage of the less informed and trick them into getting a better deal than they really are. Other businesses do this all the time, too, and I'm not sure that it's fair to hold casinos to a higher standard, but it's also not fair to attack Aaron when he calls them out for being misleading.

And, of course, some casinos take it even further. They may advertise that you get some large amount of money in freeplay, but then the fine print says that the freeplay is only good at "promotional machines", and nowhere to be found in the fine print is the fact that these promotional machines are "freeplay only" and they pay out at a very low percentage, so your large amount of freeplay is actually worth very little. IIRC Casino Royale is (or used to be) really bad about this. I seem to remember someone (the Wizard?) complaining that Hooters had severely misleading promotional information as well, although this was a while ago as well.

So, let's not pretend that casinos aren't misleading in their promotions. The only real question is, how misleading are they?

True, There are still a few slimy abuses.

But I play at local Las Vegas casinos (Boyd Gaming, Stations, and Cannery), who know that veteran local players see through this on table games. Promotions for us players are generally very clean; I've never seen anything questionable or dense.

They're all room offers, buffet 2-for-1's, straight up and clear free play coupons, promotions where the rules are in black-and-white, along with Steak House promotions, and all the Pop and Rock bands that are coming to play at their auditoriums. Nothing fishy at all.

But I don't play slots, just table games, and a lot of them. Slots might be a wider catagory of demographics, where more severe marketing tricks may be used, and this is apparently the case - at times.

Even in slots, where losing a thousand gets you a thousand in play - not cash - should be clearly explained as it is; still, $1000 of play should be worth about $490 in cash value, still a huge value, but I will admit is very fine for game action, and not a required cash refund.

While I do not think that "caveat emptor" applies, I don't think most promos are that misleading. Why? A casino operator would get huge push-back and burn out, certainly in terms of reputation in the Internet age, and even a most rudimentary marketing department exec would be acquainted with the risks, and how asinine it would be to pull a stunt.

Secondly, I think part of a player's responsibility is to apply a "sniff test" or at least some thought to such promo: if a gambling hall advert says "your first $1000 loss is on us," then he can reasonably expect it to be covered in action, and not in cash, which is exactly what the gambler is doing - action; to assume otherwise is on the one who stuffs $1,000 into a slot machine - and expects loses refunded in freaking cash. $1000 of Losses are forgiven in terms of action - these losses are not paid out in cash! To get paid back $1,000 in cash from a $1,000 shot to play - when losing it all - and for a total cash refund is not gambling, and is lunacy to expect. If the gambler "plays in action," then it is perfectly fine that he may get paid/refunded with action credit to play, - as it was what he came to do, and it does indeed cover his action.

This should be told to be gambler in the casino promo in BIG letters, as some people have crawled out from under a rock, and need it spelled the hell out for them.

If I got my loses covered - FORGIVEN - with the same dollar value in play action, I would consider my loses fully covered. To get a true "Mulligan" on your action is an extreme offer on your losses. But true, this is misleading - if you had crawled out from under a rock. However, I would state that the refund is in terms of action value only, to be clear on it. It is taking candy from the babies, because some are babies who had indeed crawled out from under a rock, and also did not read the fine print. If fine print is present, it is to be noticed. Expectations should not be played too strongly upon in marketing, because it'll come back to burn the operator.

Here's an example from a Vegas Casino:

http://www.casinoroyalehotel.com/playersclub/

"Free $50 in Slot Play for New Club Members"

Now, assuming that this promo hasn't played since I played it a few years ago, this $50 is only playable on certain "promo only" machines. These machines don't take cash -- you can only play them using this (and other) promos. I don't know what the payout is but I suspect it's quite low. 10% or less would not surprise me.

Now, a seasoned gambler who was not familiar with this casino might think that the $50 in slot play on a strip casino was worth something in the $45 range. Someone who really did his research might look at this page: https://wizardofodds.com/games/slots/appendix/3a/ and conclude that if Casino Royale nickel slots paid out 91.67%, then his $50 in slot play was worth $45.83, and therefore well worth his trip, and his time to sign up for the card. Imagine how upset he would be when he is lead to the oversized "promotional play only" machine and realizes that his free play is mostly worthless.

This passes the "sniff test". $50 free play promos are not rare. Stay at our hotel, get $50 in free play -- these are common promos at MGM properties (for example), for people with the lowest level players card and no real record of play. And this regular MGM freeplay -- playable on just about any slot or VP machine in the casino (sometimes not on machines with large progressives -- I think the ones that are linked between casinos)

I don't know if Casino Royale counts as a "locals" casino. It's kind of a crummy low-roller place... I don't really like it. The drinks are horrible. I go there once in a while to play 100x odds craps. I used to go there a lot more when it was the only place on the strip to find BJ switch. The point is, it's just one example of a misleading casino promo.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

This actually gets to the heart of the matter. My education was in public relations and marketing and I've got to tell you, your reaction is expected. It's calculated in and taken into account. Then the promotion proceeds if it seems it will be profitable. You, apparently, are not the target demographic of the promotions. That's why no one at the casino cares that you're upset. I don't want to give a big marketing lecture that no one will actually read but this is actually a very simple matter. Marketing is designed to appeal to a narrow demographic, it has to be unless the product being sold is a commodity, then it's sold on price, not the story. Casinos are all about the story. Walmart is where you buy goods sold as a commodity. No one walks around all day with a bag from walmart to show their exclusive taste, but they will drag that Starbucks cup around all day, refilling it with whatever is handy, just so you'll know they go to Starbucks. That's telling a story about who you are and what great taste you have. Casinos likewise sell a story.

I found this passage to be quite interesting.

Thanks.

I'm in the mood for a summary-----

Ahigh believes that match play/ free play coupons are misleading. He is upset that a casino would stoop to do such a thing.
My take- I agree they are misleading, but I am not upset a casino would do such a thing. It only took ONE time for me to use one and figure out what they were worth. I look at it as any business that wants to lure you in..... the tire store selling you tires for $50 each, but then you find out you need valves for an extra $8 each, the airline that charges you for luggage, I am not making this next one up---- the restaurant that charged a dime for the paper cup for tap water...

Ahigh believes that the casino should let him use multiple food coupons for him and his friends.....
My take- I would have asked first, and would have expected the answer to be "No sir, each member would need a coupon in his own name, you cannot use 4 coupons in your own name simultaneously."

Personally, I am quite happy when I receive any free, or 2 for 1, type offers from the casinos I frequent. I think Ahigh is in the extreme minority with his free stuff expectations. If there were more people who felt as Ahigh does, the casinos wouldn't do it!

I think if I gave ahigh a horse, he would insist on looking in it's mouth.

Don't be confused! I dont _expect_ anything less than what they already do. I absolutely know how to cope with it.

The thing that I'm doing is associating the behavior with the term "loser."

The misleading approach is something that I associate with a lesser casino. Possibly a casino with a demographic of customer who would fall for such things.

The same visitors who came to visit me were actually TALKING about the disappointment of the free slot play at Casino Royale and what a bunch of crap it was. That is a very ironic part to this story.

I have never even BOTHERED to play the free slots there because I don't play slots.

But the point that I am trying to make is that there are still people who don't already have opinions that go through this for the first time.

If those people walked away with a better impression of Las Vegas as a sort of straightforward city where a bet is a bet is a bet, and when you get a free one, it's as much like a real as possible, I think the city would be better off.

That is the whole point that I am making here.

And when a casino pulls a "trick" to get you into a position where you can think something that's not true so that you would do something that you otherwise wouldn't do because you are believing something that is false only to take advantage of your state of mind believing falsehoods, that's where I feel like putting my foot down and saying, "I think the business that do this stuff are not benefitting anyone at all in the long run."

I'll go back to the compressed megabytes example that tape drives for computers did for a while.

Is there ANYONE here who thinks that SSD's on computers should be rated in COMPRESSED megabytes? Sure you could divide by two and memorize what compression standard each company uses to figure out what the REAL storage capacity is, but if they all wanted to trick you to think they had more on-off states internally in hardware, is that something that you think is acceptible?

But also please don't misunderstand that I think promotional coupons are a bad thing. I just think they way that they are MARKETED is a bad thing. I think it's bad for the economy of the City and it's bad for repeat business. I think it creates less than ideal entertainment value learning that you believed something that wasn't true and fell victim to a marketing scheme.

I agree that it's everywhere, and I think that it's equally bad everywhere it is. The "resort fee." Even the fact that they choose to label the hidden cost as a "resort fee" is sort of bull crap.

Any place that was up front and honest would include that cost, if it's not optional, in all of the advertised costs. Now all advertising is in the position to say "no resort fee" or to have a resort fee. It simply lengthens the time it takes for someone to get a fair deal among casinos that effectively are hiding the true cost of staying at that casino.

The only thing that even makes this legal is that there isn't currently a law that penalizes businesses who intentionally mislead their customers in order to promote things. IE: it's not against the law to trick people into doing something by misleading them.

Very few people, A-high, take the time to look at a free play coupon to derive its value.

Marketing works in funny ways. For example, I prefer Caesar's over MGM, and I might be very much in the minority in this forum. Why do I prefer Caesar's? Because of the way they give away their rooms. For flea-level gamblers, Caesar's discounts on their rooms as a result of your fairly limited play is second to none. MGM's player's cards might be better for value and you may (well definitely) will end up with more $ cash play and different offers, but the room rate that Caesar's offers is the value for me, and that's how they differentiate their Total Rewards system from others. That's marketing.

For example, I have a free stay at Caesar's this weekend which was generated based on play over three days at Casino Windsor early this summer. For that three day stay, they are probably expecting me to feed about $25,000 of coin through VP machines and about $10,000 of table play (to be honest, I lost about $1,200 over those three days) over the weekend I'm there. The problem is that my gambling budget for the weekend is very limited, at $500. The purpose of the trip is to take my 15 year old daughter to see Shania Twain and to buy some Christmas presents.

And marketing will work to the majority of its audience in order to maximize revenue. This is where the sleaze factor comes in. If the marketing department gave away freebies without worrying about its return, then there would be no marketing department, so the marketing department has to come up with ways to entice customers while maximizing ROI. For CR's sleazy deal, the gigantic sign for $50 of "free play" works and yeah, alot of people probably feel ripped off by the promotion, but CR knows that most of its customers are walk-bys and not loyal to their brand, so they go with the quick hit.

Absolutely, marketing will attempt to figure out your demographic and market to you to squeeze every last penny out of you. The problem is that the casino only knows you from what you play patterns and attempts to make a guess on what you like based on your play. The larger the property, the more marketing people they will have and the more sophisticated their marketing programs will become.

An independent casino like the Silverton likely has a very limited marketing department (maybe only a few people) and likely uses some kind of generic player tracking software to try to manufacture its comp program to its guests. They will be limited to their responses and don't have the time to market a $12 coupon for cash directly to you for your play because you're one of the very few that care about the expected value of a coupon. In the meantime, food and beverage probably screamed at marketing in one of their departmental meetings about the wording of their coupons because they were being killed by people transferring their coupons to other guests or trying to use 5 coupons in a sitting. Hence the sign, until marketing prints the message on the coupon -- non transferrable, one coupon per visit, etc.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I've seen promos that said something like: "Sign up for a player's card, and your first $1000 loss is on us!". What they mean is, if you lose $1000, they will give you $1000 in "free bet" chips, which, as discussed here, have a value of about $500 (maybe a little more if you are wise in how you bet them, probably a little less for most people)

The recent Rivera promotion was $1000 in slot free play, somewhat restricted but not to special "promo" machines so it was in fact close to $1000, or maybe $900 (I don't remember how severe the restrictions were).

Also, some casinos actually give out "non-neg" chips/coupons, that don't go away when you win. These are close to face value and twice as valuable as "free bet" chips.

Not sure why I felt like chiming in that one...but yeah. Wizard's page on promo chips/coupons/etc.

Quote: SACR

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the casinos are saying it is a 'free bet', and then only paying the value of the bet, i.e. if you make a $10 'free bet' with the coupon, all you are receiving is $10 when you win, so the coupon is essentially worth $5. I don't know of a casino that handles their free bet or match play coupons this way.

And I have been in casinos where they have allowed me to take a food credit comp and use it to pay for someone else in my party. It sounds like you're in a place that is operating as a grind joint.

This is how my free play at Beau Rivage (MGM) works. I had $120 in Free Play for the second 1/2 of November. When I went to the cage, they gave me 5, $25 promotional chips. They are much bigger than normal chips. I can bet them on any even money bet, like the pass line. If the bet wins, they take the promotional chip, and replace it with a real $25 chip. The nice thing with craps is I can still make a $250 odds bet behind the promotional chip, essentially giving me a completely free $250 odds bet.

At Imperial Palace in Vegas this past October, the guy next to me on the Craps table had a $25 FREE PLAY Coupon which he put on the Pass Line, the beauty about the coupon is there is no $$$ match required and the coupon stays on the felt and keeps getting paid until it loses. The guy got paid at least 8 seperate times (Come out 7's/11's, Pass Line Winners) with the same free coupon before someone finally 7'ed out with a Point established. That's $200 profit without taking a penny out of your pocket.

Now that's a coupon worth playing!

Thanks you guys for sharing stories about how and why some people can come to expect a more optimistic value for free coupons.

Those who have only used free coupons in Las Vegas might even find your stories hard to believe because the norm here in Vegas is so biased towards inflating the initial perceived value intended to be projected by what is printed on the coupon until the recipient looks at all the rules, restrictions, and various "gotchas."

Quote: Ahigh

Thanks you guys for sharing stories about how and why some people can come to expect a more optimistic value for free coupons.

Those who have only used free coupons in Las Vegas might even find your stories hard to believe because the norm here in Vegas is so biased towards inflating the initial perceived value intended to be projected by what is printed on the coupon until the recipient looks at all the rules, restrictions, and various "gotchas."

To be fair though, that is the story behind many coupons, from all sorts of industries. You need look no further than the REBATE industry. It has gotten so bad, I no longer base a purchase off a price that has a rebate attached to it, unless it is instant. I have had rebates denied for a dozen arcane reasons, and have had to fight for months to get paid the $25. My time is way more valuable to me than that, but I wasn't going to let them get away with stiffing me.

Reading the fine print, looking for the gotcha, figuring out the hook, is all part of the freebie game. Think Time Share offers, which I have used years ago to get free stays in Vegas.

Come to think of it, Polynesian Village with Tanya Roberts, has not popped up on my radar in a few years. Is that still going?