CrapsForever
CrapsForever
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 517
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
July 11th, 2012 at 6:29:54 PM permalink
Playing Craps today in Rivers Casino in Chicago...and getting KILLED...Every decision I make is wrong...I bet the Pass Line, 7'outs all day. I bet the Don'ts....Points are hitting. I walk away from a COLD table....by the time I get back the table is PACKED and I can't get back on to play because the shooter is on a MONSTER roll.

There's a "WHALE" with the entire table reserved to himself at a Craps table behind me. He is betting $1,000 Pass Line, with anywhere from $20,000 - $50,000 Odds (Casino has 100X Odds) and making Place Bets of $10,000 and better. He has bets totaling over $150,000 on the table the couple times that I glanced over at him. I am on my craps table losing my SHIRT; a few players at my craps table are watching the Whale throwing the Dice; he is losing more than $100,000 every few minutes. I overheard one of the Casino employees saying the player is down $500,000 TODAY and apparently is a regular at the Casino and always bets big and loses most of the time.

A few minutes later....Pit Boss walks over to my Craps table and tells one of the players on my table who is casually watching the Whale throwing the Dice every few seconds that the "Whale" does not like anybody watching him throw the dice and if the Craps player watches him again..he'll be kicked out of the Casino.

I have seen it all!!!!!
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26432
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 11th, 2012 at 7:32:57 PM permalink
That would be illegal in Nevada.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
July 11th, 2012 at 7:38:56 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
CrapsForever
CrapsForever
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 517
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
July 11th, 2012 at 7:49:05 PM permalink
The thing that I don't understand is the player who was threatened to be kicked out was on my Craps table playing; he was simply glancing over at the other table with the Whale playing. I have played Craps for over 12 years and I have NEVER seen that much money on the table ($150,000+) at one time. It was quite a scene.... seeing all those different color chips on the table in play. Why wouldn't a regular player be interested in just taking a quick look? I know I am a bit eccentric with my "Craps Etiquette" rules but to blame your losses on a Craps table because somebody is watching you is a bit extreme!

I was feeling bad for the "Whale" until the Pit Boss threatened the Craps player on my table. I understand that "money talks" but if the Whale was that concerned about people watching him....they should have put curtains around the Craps table. Apparently Rivers Casino Chicago does not have a Craps table in their High Limit area or he would have been playing there.
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
July 11th, 2012 at 7:52:38 PM permalink
I saw this at the Mirage. A guy was betting big, and I stopped by to watch. I lingered for a little bit, and then he motioned to the to the pit boss and nodded his head in my direction. The pit boss came over to me, but I scurried away before he could get near me.

How much does it take to get a private craps table in the high limit room? If these people don't want attention, why are you playing HUGE MONEY in the MIDDLE OF A CROWDED CASINO?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 11th, 2012 at 8:01:42 PM permalink
" I was feeling bad for the "Whale""

I used to feel that way until I figured out that often it is less tan a day's pay for the whale.


After a certain point, money is meaningless. It ceases to be the goal. The game is what counts.
Aristotle Onassis
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 11th, 2012 at 8:10:38 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That would be illegal in Nevada.




Never thought I would be saying this to the man behind the curtain , But are you sure Mike ?

Definition Of Trespass Under Nevada Law

The crime of trespass does not require breaking and entering or any other type of home or property invasion. You can be charged with criminal trespass in Las Vegas for choosing to stay in a casino when a security guard tells you to leave. In many cases the security guard has no basis to ask someone to leave, so they figure “to hell with this idiot” and they stay. It comes as a surprise to many that this can result in criminal charges and the need for legal representation.

According to Nevada law-NRS 207.200-trespass occurs in the following two circumstances:

If you go onto another’s property in order to annoy the people there or to commit a crime there, OR
If you stay on another’s property after you’ve been ordered to leave.
Keyser
Keyser
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 2106
Joined: Apr 16, 2010
July 11th, 2012 at 8:56:36 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That would be illegal in Nevada.



No it wouldn't. They can kick you out if they don't like the color of your shoes. They can ban you if they choose, without providing you with a reason. And if you return, they can have you arrested.
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
July 11th, 2012 at 9:07:18 PM permalink
To be completely honest, if I had the ability to throw away a million dollars every weekend I'd want my craps game to go however the hell I like.

If I wanted midgets to dress up as oompa loompas as my dealers, I should be able to get that.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
midwestgb
midwestgb
  • Threads: 12
  • Posts: 465
Joined: Dec 8, 2009
July 11th, 2012 at 9:12:13 PM permalink
Quote: CrapsForever

Playing Craps today in Rivers Casino in Chicago...and getting KILLED...Every decision I make is wrong...I bet the Pass Line, 7'outs all day. I bet the Don'ts....Points are hitting. I walk away from a COLD table....by the time I get back the table is PACKED and I can't get back on to play because the shooter is on a MONSTER roll.

There's a "WHALE" with the entire table reserved to himself at a Craps table behind me. He is betting $1,000 Pass Line, with anywhere from $20,000 - $50,000 Odds (Casino has 100X Odds) and making Place Bets of $10,000 and better. He has bets totaling over $150,000 on the table the couple times that I glanced over at him. I am on my craps table losing my SHIRT; a few players at my craps table are watching the Whale throwing the Dice; he is losing more than $100,000 every few minutes. I overheard one of the Casino employees saying the player is down $500,000 TODAY and apparently is a regular at the Casino and always bets big and loses most of the time.

A few minutes later....Pit Boss walks over to my Craps table and tells one of the players on my table who is casually watching the Whale throwing the Dice every few seconds that the "Whale" does not like anybody watching him throw the dice and if the Craps player watches him again..he'll be kicked out of the Casino.

I have seen it all!!!!!



Probably the same guy I saw playing craps alone at Rivers last month. Was his wingman at the table without chips to keep him company?
cestanl
cestanl
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 89
Joined: Aug 31, 2011
July 11th, 2012 at 9:20:28 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

If I wanted midgets to dress up as oompa loompas as my dealers, I should be able to get that.



........ It's gonna take a while to get THAT picture out of my head hehehe
appistapp1s
appistapp1s
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 40
Joined: Nov 18, 2011
July 12th, 2012 at 12:08:22 AM permalink
The casino where I deal now also has higher end players who don't like anyone watching...the floors are constantly asking them to move on. Last year a guy with a tee shirt and plumbers ass crack jeans was watching when one of our 'pretend high rollers' asked for him to be removed. He then approached the table and asked for a marker for $100,000, a $400 hard 4, 100 for the dealers and 200 for my friend here as he pointed to the guy who wanted him removed.

Turned out the famous female country music singer who was performing was married to a guy who liked hard ways but didn't dress well.
CrapsForever
CrapsForever
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 517
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
July 12th, 2012 at 5:32:59 AM permalink
Quote: midwestgb

Probably the same guy I saw playing craps alone at Rivers last month. Was his wingman at the table without chips to keep him company?



Yup, his wing man without chips was there!
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1573
Joined: May 5, 2010
July 12th, 2012 at 5:49:46 AM permalink
I'm in the Chicago-area right now for work. I was thinking of going to Horseshoe tonight but I may have to revise those plans to visit Rivers and see if I can get in on some monster action...

While I know the casinos can do whatever they want, in this case in Illinois, they may have a harder time kicking him out without the potential of a lawsuit. If the offending player was playing on a game and just casually looking over at the other game, if security kicked him out, he'd pretty much win a discrimination lawsuit unless he was a white male aged 40. If he wasn't playing, it would be a different story, but unless the casino kicks out EVERY patron who casually glances at that particular table, there's basically no way the casino could win the lawsuit. Chances are they'd settle out of court for 10% the amount they won from the big whale and it would be all good.

Why anybody would play that much at the Rivers is beyond me, especially when on the Indiana side Horseshoe will book those kinds of bets AND he'd have a private area to play.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 2501
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
July 12th, 2012 at 8:37:46 AM permalink
It strikes me that with a player making that much of a scene, it is not about his 'luck' or anything concerned with the game. He is getting his satisfaction from the fact that he can make people do whatever he wants. Total power control trip. He has the pit boss dancing like a puppet on the end of his string. He even gets to exert control over other customers, by jerking the string on his pit boss to command the other customers to not watch him.

It takes all kinds. The funny thing about it, I would bet he talks about all the respect he gets from the staff at the casino, and yet, I would bet the minute he is gone, the staff probably laughs their asses off at his antics.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
July 12th, 2012 at 10:21:23 AM permalink
It's tough for me not to side with the casino on this one, I'm afraid. The casino has this one player that might reflect a not insubstantial percentage of the casino's Craps revenue for the month who doesn't want a player whose total action on the night MAY reflect an insubstantial percentage of what this guy has on the table in one bet!

If you think about the entertainment, the free coffee, the Comps and all of the other assorted niceties the casino offers, this guy is paying for a good portion of that getting distributed to everyone! If this guy stops playing, maybe the BJ rules become a little bit tighter, or maybe a lower payout % gets programmed on the Slots, worse VP paytables, possibly?

The casino has a lot riding on this guy's satisfaction, and I would imagine that they offered to set up a Craps table in the HR section, put up curtains, or maybe in a private room and the whale declined. If I had to guess, the whale probably wants to be seen but not watched. Maybe he does get a thrill out of the casino ordering people around at his direction, but the one constant that remains is that the casino wants to keep him happy.

He might even like people watching him if he his winning. I'm a Don't Player and I have had nights where it seems I am just firing off point-after-point. It's sickening, and then someone comes to the table which was otherwise empty. I don't know if it is just my psychology or what, but I don't like people watching me when I am getting killed.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
FinsRule
FinsRule
  • Threads: 128
  • Posts: 3914
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
July 12th, 2012 at 10:31:58 AM permalink
If you can afford to lose $500,000 in one night, then gambling obviously isn't about the money.

I'm not sure what the issue is that the whale has. But there is something wrong with him.

If I could afford to lose 500,000 in one night, I sure wouldn't spend my time gambling....

Finally, I've seen a craps table roped off twice out of the 4 times I've been to Rivers. Makes much more sense for them to put it in the high limit room, and make it like a 4-6 person table. They'd save 10 gaming positions that way.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 441
  • Posts: 28570
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
July 12th, 2012 at 10:49:21 AM permalink
A few years ago Golden Nugget Vegas had a roulette table roped
off for some citizen. I watched for awhile and noticed the dealer
was throwing the ball whether the guy bet or not. I was told thats
strictly against their rules. So I asked the suit standing there why
this guy gets to break the rules and I don't. He just shrugged his
shoulders.

The genius was losing his ass, BTW. I watched for 15min and
saw him win once. That dealer must have been hitting a hundred
spins an hour.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
darthvader
darthvader
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 226
Joined: Jul 7, 2012
July 12th, 2012 at 10:50:14 AM permalink
Oh, how I would have loved to be a darksider at this table!

Darth Vader
7-out, line away, pay the don't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEcwAWi6dk
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 12th, 2012 at 11:37:49 AM permalink
Quote: darthvader

Oh, how I would have loved to be a darksider at this table!

Darth Vader




Admit it. You just lick to pick on millionaires !
CrapsForever
CrapsForever
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 517
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
July 12th, 2012 at 4:10:51 PM permalink
The "Whale" was back at the Casino again today! Same exact situation like yesterday....the entire Craps table was roped off! A small time Craps player staggered through the ropes and tried to make a bet on the table; he was quickly ushered away by the Whale's accomplice.
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
July 12th, 2012 at 4:53:15 PM permalink
Quote: CrapsForever

The "Whale" was back at the Casino again today! Same exact situation like yesterday....the entire Craps table was roped off! A small time Craps player staggered through the ropes and tried to make a bet on the table; he was quickly ushered away by the Whale's accomplice.



Why do they even rope it off, if you set the limits at $10k anyone who steps up can have their own table. If the whale wants to bet below that, who's going to stop him?
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
CrapsForever
CrapsForever
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 517
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
July 12th, 2012 at 7:46:36 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

Why do they even rope it off, if you set the limits at $10k anyone who steps up can have their own table. If the whale wants to bet below that, who's going to stop him?



Exactly!

For some strange reason, they have the limit set at $10 on the reserved table even though the Whale never has less than $50,000 on the table from what I saw the past couple of days.
Craps is the most "Jekyll and Hyde" casino game ever invented!
Juyemura
Juyemura
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 154
Joined: Apr 8, 2012
July 12th, 2012 at 8:22:43 PM permalink
I also side with the casino. While the whale may seem like an jerk, he is a whale. If he wants people to move along, it is in the casino's best interest to obey his whim.
Lottery:  A tax on people who are bad at math.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
July 12th, 2012 at 8:53:23 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

It's tough for me not to side with the casino on this one, I'm afraid. The casino has this one player that might reflect a not insubstantial percentage of the casino's Craps revenue for the month who doesn't want a player whose total action on the night MAY reflect an insubstantial percentage of what this guy has on the table in one bet!



I'll buy all that.

But there's no reason for the casino personnel to get nasty with the fleas. A simple "Excuse me, this guy is betting a fortune and he doesn't like it when people watch him. We would really appreciate it if you did not to look in his direction. Thank you. Here, have a bunch of match play coupons."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
July 12th, 2012 at 9:27:11 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I'll buy all that.

But there's no reason for the casino personnel to get nasty with the fleas. A simple "Excuse me, this guy is betting a fortune and he doesn't like it when people watch him. We would really appreciate it if you did not to look in his direction. Thank you. Here, have a bunch of match play coupons."



I'm with you on everything, except I don't really see the need for the match play. The fleas are important too, because if he spreads the message to his flea friends about his harsh treatment, and they avoid the casino for that reason, then the casino risks losing money there. I guess maybe a stern, "Second Warning," with a, "Gentle, but firm," first Warning would be more appropriate.

It does really depend on how agitated the Whale gets about people watching him, though. The casino really needs to worry about the money he is expected to lose in one month...or one night...much more than the expected loss of a handful of fleas over ten years, or what have you.

There was a local restaurant that I will not identify in which a jacket was required, but only sometimes. I eventually learned to call ahead and determine if a jacket would be required that night, though I went rarely. It turned out that the reason was this one businessman would come in and bring in 50-100 people, for whatever reason, and he was footing the entire bill. He didn't like to see anyone dining where he was dining unless they were wearing a jacket.

You have to figure that if a restaurant, not at capacity, mind you, is going to turn people away over revenue (not profit) that is probably somewhere between $2,500-$5,000, (based on the menu, and at a guess) then the casino is really going to bow down to this whale.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
July 12th, 2012 at 10:11:56 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I'm with you on everything, except I don't really see the need for the match play.



Because you're not in the Middle Ages. These days when the Lord sends the Constable to put eh peons down, the peons aren't afraid to show their resentment. So you give them a little something to take the sting off.

Quote:

It does really depend on how agitated the Whale gets about people watching him, though. The casino really needs to worry about the money he is expected to lose in one month...or one night...much more than the expected loss of a handful of fleas over ten years, or what have you.



Yes. And the whale will lose more than the value of a few lousy match play coupons.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
SACR
SACR
  • Threads: 7
  • Posts: 147
Joined: Jul 7, 2012
July 13th, 2012 at 5:35:59 AM permalink
Anyone ask if, since you're not allowed on that pit, you can make bets against his roll every time in the pit you are allowed to play at?

The obvious answer is no, but I'd ask to see if any of the pit or dealers cracked a smile.
Woldus
Woldus
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 215
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
July 13th, 2012 at 8:50:43 AM permalink
Quote: CrapsForever

Playing Craps today in Rivers Casino in Chicago...and getting KILLED...Every decision I make is wrong...I bet the Pass Line, 7'outs all day. I bet the Don'ts....Points are hitting. I walk away from a COLD table....by the time I get back the table is PACKED and I can't get back on to play because the shooter is on a MONSTER roll.

There's a "WHALE" with the entire table reserved to himself at a Craps table behind me. He is betting $1,000 Pass Line, with anywhere from $20,000 - $50,000 Odds (Casino has 100X Odds) and making Place Bets of $10,000 and better. He has bets totaling over $150,000 on the table the couple times that I glanced over at him. I am on my craps table losing my SHIRT; a few players at my craps table are watching the Whale throwing the Dice; he is losing more than $100,000 every few minutes. I overheard one of the Casino employees saying the player is down $500,000 TODAY and apparently is a regular at the Casino and always bets big and loses most of the time.

A few minutes later....Pit Boss walks over to my Craps table and tells one of the players on my table who is casually watching the Whale throwing the Dice every few seconds that the "Whale" does not like anybody watching him throw the dice and if the Craps player watches him again..he'll be kicked out of the Casino.

I have seen it all!!!!!



I don't see what the problem is...I can spend my money any way I wish. If you would all just purchase the secret to my winning Roulette betting strategy (That the hard-headed math community continues to shun) we could all play together. For beginner's I suggest buying some fresh cc dumps. Which I can arrange as well.
konceptum
konceptum
  • Threads: 33
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Mar 25, 2010
July 13th, 2012 at 8:55:43 AM permalink
Not quite a whale story, but I once saw a craps table where one side was completely full of players, and the other side completely empty. When I went to go look, the empty side had a $100 minimum. The full side was $10 minimum. Struck me as odd, but as I was in a hurry to get somewhere, I just cataloged in the brain. That evening, I asked the dealers what the issue was about. Turns out one of the guys was a high roller, making $1000 bets and such. He didn't like people on the other side of the table to get their hands in the way, so he asked for the casino to make it a $100 minimum on that side, to chase off anybody from playing there. He didn't mind the other players on his side of the table, in fact, he liked the camaraderie.

I really wish I had known this was the reason. I would have made a $100 DP bet opposite him just to put my hands in his way. :)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 10992
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
July 13th, 2012 at 9:00:42 AM permalink
Interesting.

That also kinda answers a question I never bothered to ask:

If a high roller wants a private table, but allow his red-chip buddies to play at the same table, is that do-able?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 13th, 2012 at 9:04:52 AM permalink
" If a high roller wants " YES ANYTHING HE WANTS !!
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1573
Joined: May 5, 2010
July 13th, 2012 at 10:55:09 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

If a high roller wants a private table, but allow his red-chip buddies to play at the same table, is that do-able?



In Tunica, this is very easy to accomplish (especially at Horseshoe, but probably at Gold Strike as well). Find a 5-10 dollar EMPTY table. Play one roll, then ask to bump up the limits to a much higher amount. This grandfathers in the buddies, while keeping the table to himself.

Back to the whale at Rivers and the whole "Match Play" thing. This is HIGHLY unlikely to occur in Illinois. As I mentioned, I think that the casino is very unwise to threaten a player out of a casino, as discrimination is likely to be called. The gaming position law also could be called into question as well...
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
uncleP
uncleP
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 8
Joined: Nov 21, 2012
November 21st, 2012 at 1:22:01 PM permalink
First post here...long time lover of this game!

When I first started playing back in the '80's, I played at the Tropicana. Plenty of action...5X odds...a generous comp system...lots of tables... and experienced dealers who shared their tokes with their table crew ONLY ( a subject for another post).

I guess I played long enough to be invited to a golf tournament, and I s'pose that lots of big players were invited. I was still very green, and to my surprise, found a table that was closed on one side, had a shooter on the other, and $500 minimum. I watched as the player walked away with $17,000 dollars, and gave a waitress (whom I would later get to "know") a $500 tip!

Well, the golf was great, but as luck would have it, I found myself downtown at the Shoe (100X odds) trying to get out of a deep hole. While chatting with a dealer, I told him about the big win I'd seen at the Trop. He didn't seem very impressed, and told me to stick around. About an hour later, the Boss CLOSED OUR TABLE IN THE MIDDLE OF A HAND. Legal or illegal, believe it or else! I was THERE.

Security rolls out a cart of cheques that I'd never seen before, and a player from South America begins to play with $5000 cheques like I played with nickels.
$5000 on the line, $100,000 odds with a come bet on EVERY roll.

At one point, the shooter was UP several million dollars. You know how the story ends...

Once the ruckus died down, I went back to my dealer friend. With a slight grin, he cut out a stack of red for my buy in, and said, "imagine what it's like to have $100,000 in your hand like this, and need $40 to keep your lights on".

VIVA Las Vegas!
RIP Horseshoe.
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
November 21st, 2012 at 2:10:41 PM permalink
Quote: uncleP

Well, the golf was great, but as luck would have it, I found myself downtown at the Shoe (100X odds) trying to get out of a deep hole. While chatting with a dealer, I told him about the big win I'd seen at the Trop. He didn't seem very impressed, and told me to stick around. About an hour later, the Boss CLOSED OUR TABLE IN THE MIDDLE OF A HAND. Legal or illegal, believe it or else! I was THERE.

Security rolls out a cart of cheques that I'd never seen before, and a player from South America begins to play with $5000 cheques like I played with nickels.
$5000 on the line, $100,000 odds with a come bet on EVERY roll.

At one point, the shooter was UP several million dollars. You know how the story ends...

Once the ruckus died down, I went back to my dealer friend. With a slight grin, he cut out a stack of red for my buy in, and said, "imagine what it's like to have $100,000 in your hand like this, and need $40 to keep your lights on".

VIVA Las Vegas!
RIP Horseshoe.

And now the Horseshoe (Binion's) will sweat your $5 action when you don't hit the back wall. RIP is right.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
November 21st, 2012 at 3:29:12 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ahigh
Ahigh
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
November 21st, 2012 at 6:51:34 PM permalink
Seeing big action on a craps table is absolutely awesome.

It's typical for casino staff to tell people to stand back or not watch, even when the whale doesn't care.

The casino's goals are generally to keep the dice moving just like any other time. People watching just tends to slow things down.

The one time I saw 3x4x5x odds with 3 to 4 points and $10,000 passline and come bets was at the Aria. They asked me to keep my distance, but allowed me to watch.

It was awesome. I have never seen the dice move faster, and if you've watched it, you know that the tables goes up and down six figures easily.

I watched him go from 150,000 to 400,000 and everywhere in between in a span of 15 minutes.

Absolutely mesmerizing!
aahigh.com
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
November 21st, 2012 at 7:11:49 PM permalink
The only real difference between the whale rollers and the fleas is the amount of their bankroll.

Rich guys have to cough up more cash to juice their lizard.
"What, me worry?"
NokTang
NokTang
  • Threads: 56
  • Posts: 1314
Joined: Aug 15, 2011
November 23rd, 2012 at 6:38:32 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh


Absolutely mesmerizing!



Agree it's sort of mesmerizing. The mind wanders. However, since reading and keeping up(not that there's much news) on the recent Golden Nuggett(in AC) story(with the pre-shuffled decks sequences being discovered by the players), the Wynn accusations of dice sliding and suing the winning players, and the one with Phil Ivey in London(winning 10million dollars(7something Pounds) at Baccarat), I'm starting to lose faith in casino's paying big winners. I know it's only three stories, but recent and just puts a different slant on big action. If the casino's aren't going to pay what's the point and mesmerizing? I'm sure they will keep the losing "whales" money.
Ahigh
Ahigh
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
November 23rd, 2012 at 8:08:33 PM permalink
You know what? The casinos are among the biggest losers. I was just having this conversation with someone else. But BYD and MGM and Stations and other Casino property owners are among the biggest losers there are!

The Wynn and LVS are a couple of winners, but most casino properties are losing.

Losers will be losers whether they are a corporation or individual hardly matters.
aahigh.com
Buzzard
Buzzard
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
November 23rd, 2012 at 8:22:35 PM permalink
" I watched him go from 150,000 to 400,000 and everywhere in between in a span of 15 minutes.

Absolutely mesmerizing! "

Watching a dice game where a knife is vetoed by a gun, now that's memorizing. Who cares if a whale bets less than a days pay for him / BORING !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 770
Joined: May 1, 2012
November 24th, 2012 at 3:55:49 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

You know what? The casinos are among the biggest losers. I was just having this conversation with someone else. But BYD and MGM and Stations and other Casino property owners are among the biggest losers there are!

The Wynn and LVS are a couple of winners, but most casino properties are losing.

Losers will be losers whether they are a corporation or individual hardly matters.



Do you have a source for this assertion? I'd live to take a look.
Buzzard
Buzzard
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 6814
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
November 24th, 2012 at 5:49:52 AM permalink
" A few minutes later....Pit Boss walks over to my Craps table and tells one of the players on my table who is casually watching the Whale throwing the Dice every few seconds that the "Whale" does not like anybody watching him throw the dice and if the Craps player watches him again..he'll be kicked out of the Casino. "

Please tell me the player then turned around and stared at the whale. I have friends in Chicago. None of whom are sissies.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Ahigh
Ahigh
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
November 24th, 2012 at 9:47:05 AM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Do you have a source for this assertion? I'd live to take a look.



They are all making revenue from casino operations, but on the whole all the casinos are having extreme difficulties being successful as businesses.

Start by looking at the 10-year charts, and if you want to pick over the details look at the balance sheets and quarterly losses.


https://www.google.com/finance?q=byd
https://www.google.com/finance?q=czr
https://www.google.com/finance?q=mgm

Take a look at the "net income" for MGM properties, for example. When all said and done, they are LOSING $100 million to $200 million every 3 months. That's only 3 million to 6 million dollars per day in losses, but it adds up to being a big fat loser .. consistently for a pretty long time. They barely broke even in Q3 of 2009, but besides that this has been years of losing 3 to 6 million dollars every day!

https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AMGM&fstype=ii&ei=FQqxUOjpCZGGlQOzggE

And our very own Alan Mendelson has a great review of the big picture for how the economy is turning the casinos into losers:

http://alanbestbuys.com/id103.html
aahigh.com
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
  • Threads: 34
  • Posts: 3502
Joined: May 10, 2010
November 24th, 2012 at 6:14:39 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Take a look at the "net income" for MGM properties, for example. When all said and done, they are LOSING $100 million to $200 million every 3 months. That's only 3 million to 6 million dollars per day in losses, but it adds up to being a big fat loser .. consistently for a pretty long time.


The stiff depreciation-amortization that exceeds $1 billion a year could sure help the balance sheet.
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 770
Joined: May 1, 2012
November 25th, 2012 at 3:15:50 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

They are all making revenue from casino operations, but on the whole all the casinos are having extreme difficulties being successful as businesses.

Start by looking at the 10-year charts, and if you want to pick over the details look at the balance sheets and quarterly losses.


https://www.google.com/finance?q=byd
https://www.google.com/finance?q=czr
https://www.google.com/finance?q=mgm

Take a look at the "net income" for MGM properties, for example. When all said and done, they are LOSING $100 million to $200 million every 3 months. That's only 3 million to 6 million dollars per day in losses, but it adds up to being a big fat loser .. consistently for a pretty long time. They barely broke even in Q3 of 2009, but besides that this has been years of losing 3 to 6 million dollars every day!

https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AMGM&fstype=ii&ei=FQqxUOjpCZGGlQOzggE

And our very own Alan Mendelson has a great review of the big picture for how the economy is turning the casinos into losers:

http://alanbestbuys.com/id103.html



I'm hardly a finance person so all those graph links mean little to me. I don't really know what I'm seeing (stock prices maybe?) and I sure can't determine what they "prove". The Alan Mendelson article was much easier to follow, but I don't think it makes your point for you (he seems to indicate that the major casino companies are doing well), though it seems to be largely concerned with stock prices as well. Do stock prices prove anything? Sure, if prices are trending upward that would seem to mean that someone feels the stock is worth buying, but I'm not sure what that proves about whether or not a company is profitable. Look at how stock prices soared before the dot com crash, those high prices apparently didn't accurately reflect the profitability of many of those companies.

So maybe a better way to put it, is do you have a source that essentially says what you're saying without me having to learn a lot about stocks that I'll likely rarely if ever use?
Ahigh
Ahigh
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
November 25th, 2012 at 11:53:51 AM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I'm hardly a finance person so all those graph links mean little to me. I don't really know what I'm seeing (stock prices maybe?) and I sure can't determine what they "prove". The Alan Mendelson article was much easier to follow, but I don't think it makes your point for you (he seems to indicate that the major casino companies are doing well), though it seems to be largely concerned with stock prices as well. Do stock prices prove anything? Sure, if prices are trending upward that would seem to mean that someone feels the stock is worth buying, but I'm not sure what that proves about whether or not a company is profitable. Look at how stock prices soared before the dot com crash, those high prices apparently didn't accurately reflect the profitability of many of those companies.

So maybe a better way to put it, is do you have a source that essentially says what you're saying without me having to learn a lot about stocks that I'll likely rarely if ever use?



I wish I could help you more, but pretty much their net income is negative meaning that they are not making money by doing business. That's all I'm using to say that they are losing and/or are losers.

In general, all casinos are winning at gambling, but they can't afford to pay all of their bills with the money that they make from gamblers, so that makes them losers from my perspective. When a company is losing money they do things they normally wouldn't do like layoffs, and cutting back on things and so on. In some cases this can just make the problem worse.

Casinos do a balancing act where that income is on one side of the balance and the costs of keeping everything running is on the other side of the business.

Many (but not all) casinos are net losers even though their gambling operation side is profitable.

I hope this helps you understand what I'm saying. Here's a couple more links about casinos losing. Maybe that will help.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/feb/19/report-casinos-lost-money-second-time-history/

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/story/2012-01-06/Nevadas-largest-casinos-lose-4B-in-2011/52418428/1

http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=3507
aahigh.com
boymimbo
boymimbo
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
November 25th, 2012 at 8:14:25 PM permalink
The key figures for casinos is the cash flow. Casinos can stay open if their cash flow is positive.

If you look at the combined income statement on page 1-2, there are two major expense lines that are non-cash:

Depreciation - Buildings, $1,021M
Depreciation and Amortization - Other, $1,545M

Some of interest expense is also non-cash, and that totalled $3,007M.

Collectively, in FY 2011, casinos brought in the following net revenue:

Casino Department: $4,200M
Rooms: 2,446M
Food: 242M
Beverage: 589M
Other: 1,112 M

So, before they hit general and adminstrative expenses attributable to the entire operation, casinos in Nevada are pulling in $8.590 billion dollars, in CASH every year.

The current portion of long term debt for the state is 1.416 billion. That's the amounts that casinos will need to pay in order to keep current on their long term liabilties, but they reported interest expenses of 3 billion dollars. Alot of that is non-cash.

Therefore, even though the casinos are reporting losses of 4 billion, more than all of that is servicing debt, writedowns of assets, and interest expenses.

Cash flow is positive - the casinos stay open, depsite them "losing money".
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Ahigh
Ahigh
  • Threads: 90
  • Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
November 25th, 2012 at 9:15:46 PM permalink
Quote: NokTang

Agree it's sort of mesmerizing. The mind wanders. However, since reading and keeping up(not that there's much news) on the recent Golden Nuggett(in AC) story(with the pre-shuffled decks sequences being discovered by the players), the Wynn accusations of dice sliding and suing the winning players, and the one with Phil Ivey in London(winning 10million dollars(7something Pounds) at Baccarat), I'm starting to lose faith in casino's paying big winners. I know it's only three stories, but recent and just puts a different slant on big action. If the casino's aren't going to pay what's the point and mesmerizing? I'm sure they will keep the losing "whales" money.



Just wanted to bring back the original statement that led to my saying that the casinos are losers and acting accordingly.

I don't disagree that they can continue to operate even though they keep losing money, and I appreciate the more knowledgeable explanation for cash flow being a litmus test for whether continuing to operate is a viable thing to do.

But negative earnings absolutely affect corporate culture. And a lot of the corporate policies for many of these big casinos trickle down to things where the casinos come out looking a little shifty. Everything from "resort fees" to weird rules about how coupons can and can't be used that makes people scratch their heads wondering if they were intentionally created to be misleading (match play .. even odds only bets .. no bets on "travelling" bets, etc). Often customers find out the truth after they are backed into a corner committed to spending money. It's a little bit underhanded how these corporate policies that are intended to increase revenues are effectively lying to customers in order to create more short-term business at the expense of long-term customer satisfaction.

This was the point that I was trying to make to Axiom, and points that I have made to others who work at the corporate level at casinos that are enacting these policies that effectively reduce the entertainment value of their properties in their attempt to make more money.

At the end of the day, the casinos need to step back and realize that they are not in business to steal your money with tricks. They are in business to make us happy and entertain us and make us laugh and make us feel good about ourselves and who we are and how much fun we get to have.

They are not in business to pull the wool over our eyes and make us believe stuff that's not true while they rob our pockets of cash.

That is the image of the Las Vegas that is losing its shirt to the downward spiraling economy. The Las Vegas that is the sore loser that is cheating and pulling tricks to try to earn more money instead of just doing what it's supposed to be doing: entertaining us!

The more stories about people not getting paid, the less money the casinos are going to be able to make in the long term due to a damaged reputation for being a legitimate form of entertainment. There is a non-verbal contract that we expect casinos to pay up when we win, and we expect when we are offered "deals" that the deals come across as simple and easy to understand, not "OH YEAH, everybody in Vegas has resort fees, so we have to do that too in order to compete."

Oh really? How about the customer response, "F*** Las Vegas." That's what corporate Las Vegas is betting the customer doesn't eventually settle on. Nobody NEEDS to come to Vegas.

Corporate Las Vegas will learn one way or another how this form of thinking that it's okay to cheat to earn more money is not a long term viable option. The public learns about the tricks (almost like dodging taxes) and eventually just spends more time working around tricks instead of trading money for entertainment and spending their time just being entertained instead of studying how not to be a victim of tricks.
aahigh.com
boymimbo
boymimbo
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
November 25th, 2012 at 9:30:51 PM permalink
Well sure they are. Every business is there to make money and to steal our money with tricks.

Your local grocery store is designed such that the things you need the most are at opposite ends. You need milk, salad, and bread. Walk into your grocery store, and count the number of steps it takes to get all three items. Why is the store designed that way? So that you pick up other things along the way and spend more money.

Now your perception of the store can be of a jaded consumer, and you can elect to shop instead at your local 7-11 where the prices might be 20% higher but the milk's right next to the bread, or you can think that the store has a right to make money and to entice you into buying other things.

Casinos are the same. Putting 3-Card at 1-3-6 doesn't matter if every casino on the strip's doing it. Offering Blackjack at 6-5 brings in more money because enough people are ignorant about how much that 20% take on the blackjack really costs you. A resort fee is a differentiator in hotels. MGM / Wynn / Sands charges resort fees, while CZR will nickel and dime you to death at their resorts. How many idiots do you see in a casino playing a lesser version of a video poker machine when there are far better products two rows away?

The Las Vegas strip is very much like the oil oligarphy in America. There are four companies that dominate the strip and as such they control the player experience. Las Vegas suffers because the economy suffers, and there are plenty of more opportunities closer to home that don't involve getting on an airplane.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
  • Jump to: