Player threatened to be kicked out of Casino because he is watching a "Whale" play Craps!
I don't play roulette, but I was watching the ball spin, and a customer walks up with a $25 match play coupon to the roulette wheel. He had four $5 chips in addition to the coupon.
He asks the dealer, "how does this coupon work? What do I do?"
The dealer went on to explain how a match play coupon works to him. This guy was not an intellectual. Not at all. He was a regular Joe.
And I know what he was thinking. Basically he was wondering "how do I bet this goddamn thing?"
After the dealer tried to explain to him that with $20, he would only get $20 worth of match play for the coupon, I asked him, "do you want me to help you out?"
And he said "yes."
I said, the coupon says no cash value, but on this game, it's worth about $12.00. I'll give you $12.00 for it if you let me tell you what to do with it to get your money for it, then you can bet your $12.00 any way you want.
He says, "alright."
So I said, put the coupon down right there. Then I took out $100 in cash, and I asked for three green chips, two red chips, and some singles.
I then gave him $62.00 and pointed out what to do with it.
"Put the coupon on red, put $25 on top of the coupon. Now put $37.00 on black." I told him "if we hit 0 or 00 I will lose $62.00 and you will lose your coupon, but we're going to gamble against that!"
So we went and let that all happen.
Then when we got paid, the dealer short changed the pay on black by $5. In the process of settling up to get him his $12.00 I ended up with $95.00 instead of $100.00 .. and that's how we realized that we came up $5.00 short.
So _then_ we had to spend about ten minutes talking to the pit boss about the dealer mistake and all the motions that we went through to get this poor chump $12.00 that he could bet any way he wanted from his $25.00 match play coupon.
And after all of this, everybody was left scratching their head. I mean this is a roulette table, not a group of math geniuses.
Most people when they get a $25 free bet coupon expect that they will get $50 in cash if they win on an even odds bet. And they _should_.
It's the casinos that keep pushing and pushing and pushing to make is SOUND better than it is just so that people who are not experienced with these coupons get all excited.
Collectively everybody does the same thing (like when tape backups for computers were advertised in "compressed megabytes.").
The practice is just SHADY and it just becomes ACCEPTED.
But it has never made anybody have more fun! Not even the math guys enjoy just trying to use a coupon with how easy it is to bet a casino chip.
And if you ask me, they SHOULD just put a cash value on all of these coupons at the face value divided by two less 6% for the chumps who just want their goddamned money!!!
Even though Nevada is losing a pile of income, the casinos themselves are bringing in a pile of cash. The cash is used mostly to pay down its loans. The depreciation and amortization figures add greatly to this, but this is non-cash.
Banks and investment companies are still willing to loan the big four money. MGM, in 2011 renegotiated its credit facilities, and did some accounting (all legal) to take Borgota off its books while recognizing ownership in MGM China (and recorded 3.5 billion dollars in revenue as a result). As a result, MGM is much more healthier than it was a couple of years ago when City Centre opened.
The Sands is healthy and has 1.3 billion in net income up until Q3 this year. Wynn's income to Q3 this year is $563 million. MGM's net income to Q3 this year is $505 million (thanks mostly to the overseas operation). Caesar's in the unhealthy one in the bunch, with a net loss of $1.0 billion so far this year, and its overseas operations in the UK and Egypt are losing money.
That's how casinos stay open despite the fact that they are recording net losses.
Quote: CrapsForeverThere's a "WHALE" with the entire table reserved to himself at a Craps table behind me. He is betting $1,000 Pass Line, with anywhere from $20,000 - $50,000 Odds (Casino has 100X Odds) and making Place Bets of $10,000 and better. He has bets totaling over $150,000 on the table the couple times that I glanced over at him. I am on my craps table losing my SHIRT; a few players at my craps table are watching the Whale throwing the Dice; he is losing more than $100,000 every few minutes. I overheard one of the Casino employees saying the player is down $500,000 TODAY and apparently is a regular at the Casino and always bets big and loses most of the time.
Buzz's apoplexy has me looking at this again.
One thought: I hope this guy is a Whale with a capital W. The proper bankroll would be enormous, 7 figures obviously wouldn't cut it and I don't think 8 would really be right either.
Quote: Ahigh
Most people when they get a $25 free bet coupon expect that they will get $50 in cash if they win on an even odds bet. And they _should_.
Maybe I'm missing something or things are just different in different casinos. Perhaps you'll explain it, and perhaps it will make sense.
If someone comes to my table with a $25 match play coupon and lays it down with $25 in chips on top of it and wins I will give them $25 for the winnings on their bet with chips and $25 for their winning from the coupon, or $25 + $25 = $50 (in chips, not cash, I don't know of any place that pays out cash at a table game, but I haven't been everywhere either). So, I'm confused about your statement above.
Also, in your continuing defense of your statement about casinos being big losers you seem to be using the terms casino and Las Vegas synonymously. This is what originally caught my attention about your statements, because to my knowledge the place I work is making money and our stock prices are on the rise. Now this doesn't mean that every one of our properties is making money, I really have no idea, but I have heard very good things about our financial status so your blanket statement didn't ring true to me. Your "explanation" (go look at some financial pages with stock price history) didn't do much (anything?) to clarify your position. You acted as if looking at some stock info would make your position self-evident. It didn't.
handled. Just to cover their ass if for no other reason. Gaming does all in their power to allow citizens a chance to play and produce
revenue for the state. And there is not a don't look over at my table regulation !
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyQuote: Ahigh
Most people when they get a $25 free bet coupon expect that they will get $50 in cash if they win on an even odds bet. And they _should_.
Maybe I'm missing something or things are just different in different casinos. Perhaps you'll explain it, and perhaps it will make sense.
If someone comes to my table with a $25 match play coupon and lays it down with $25 in chips on top of it and wins I will give them $25 for the winnings on their bet with chips and $25 for their winning from the coupon, or $25 + $25 = $50 (in chips, not cash, I don't know of any place that pays out cash at a table game, but I haven't been everywhere either). So, I'm confused about your statement above.
Also, in your continuing defense of your statement about casinos being big losers you seem to be using the terms casino and Las Vegas synonymously. This is what originally caught my attention about your statements, because to my knowledge the place I work is making money and our stock prices are on the rise. Now this doesn't mean that every one of our properties is making money, I really have no idea, but I have heard very good things about our financial status so your blanket statement didn't ring true to me. Your "explanation" (go look at some financial pages with stock price history) didn't do much (anything?) to clarify your position. You acted as if looking at some stock info would make your position self-evident. It didn't.
Things are different in different casinos, and match play just adds a level of complexity. But I'm talking about a "FREE BET" not a match play.
The first time in my life I used a "free bet" coupon, the coupon said "$25 free bet" and I bet it on black and I won. I got $25, but I expected to get $25 plus the $25 from the coupon itself. I'm pretty sure that those who don't expect are simply conditioned not to expect it.
Two night ago, I took four $40 food coupons to Twin Creeks at Silverton Casino.
They have a sign at the door that says "coupons are limited to one coupon per guest per visit."
After eating $200 worth of food I was then told that the coupons are just one coupon per guest per visit, but they are one coupon per guest WHO EARNED THE COUPON. Meaning I could only use one coupon.
Just another example. The people who work at Twin Creeks had to CHANGE their policy of accepting multiple coupons THREE WEEKS AGO because they were all accepting multiple coupons.
Previous to this corporate policy change, this was the best deal in Las Vegas as far comps. Now it's just yet another lie related to coupons.
But when I was told that $120 worth of coupons that I EXPECTED TO USE ACCORDING TO THE SIGNS AT THE FRONT DOOR were STILL NOT ALLOWED because of some policy that was not explained to me and is absolutely not obvious from the signs at the front of the restaurant. And absolutely opposite how it had been operated up until a few weeks ago.
Guess what? I was unhappy!!!
And this is where Corporate Las Vegas is out of touch with their customers. They don't realize that they are providing entertainment, and these bad experiences are just reflecting penny pinching the same way as if I take a $50 coupon and put the coupon on the passline and $25 on the don't pass and $1 on the boxcars. I can in fact do that, but the whole point is to get me to gamble. Not to just give me free money.
It's the flip side of the coin: anyone can game any system you can come up with. And when it comes to a casino, GAMING is what you are SUPPOSED to do.
But when the casino starts gaming AGAINST you with stupid rules that aren't even DISCLOSED whether it is "good for 48 hours" on a pit issued comp, or how many coupons you can use, that just reflects poorly on the Corporate level of the casino.
If you don't understand the point that I am trying to make, it really isn't going to change if you learn how to read a company's financials. The point is there whether you agree if the casino is "losing" or a "loser" or not. They are acting like one when they do stuff like this.
Quote: Ahigh
Things are different in different casinos, and match play just adds a level of complexity. But I'm talking about a "FREE BET" not a match play.
The first time in my life I used a "free bet" coupon, the coupon said "$25 free bet" and I bet it on black and I won. I got $25, but I expected to get $25 plus the $25 from the coupon itself. I'm pretty sure that those who don't expect are simply conditioned not to expect it.
Two night ago, I took four $40 food coupons to Twin Creeks at Silverton Casino.
They have a sign at the door that says "coupons are limited to one coupon per guest per visit."
After eating $200 worth of food I was then told that the coupons are just one coupon per guest per visit, but they are one coupon per guest WHO EARNED THE COUPON. Meaning I could only use one coupon.
Just another example. The people who work at Twin Creeks had to CHANGE their policy of accepting multiple coupons THREE WEEKS AGO because they were all accepting multiple coupons.
Previous to this corporate policy change, this was the best deal in Las Vegas as far comps. Now it's just yet another lie related to coupons.
But when I was told that $120 worth of coupons that I EXPECTED TO USE ACCORDING TO THE SIGNS AT THE FRONT DOOR were STILL NOT ALLOWED because of some policy that was not explained to me and is absolutely not obvious from the signs at the front of the restaurant. And absolutely opposite how it had been operated up until a few weeks ago.
Guess what? I was unhappy!!!
And this is where Corporate Las Vegas is out of touch with their customers. They don't realize that they are providing entertainment, and these bad experiences are just reflecting penny pinching the same way as if I take a $50 coupon and put the coupon on the passline and $25 on the don't pass and $1 on the boxcars. I can in fact do that, but the whole point is to get me to gamble. Not to just give me free money.
It's the flip side of the coin: anyone can game any system you can come up with. And when it comes to a casino, GAMING is what you are SUPPOSED to do.
But when the casino starts gaming AGAINST you with stupid rules that aren't even DISCLOSED whether it is "good for 48 hours" on a pit issued comp, or how many coupons you can use, that just reflects poorly on the Corporate level of the casino.
If you don't understand the point that I am trying to make, it really isn't going to change if you learn how to read a company's financials. The point is there whether you agree if the casino is "losing" or a "loser" or not. They are acting like one when they do stuff like this.
In your example above you said the guy had a $25 match play. He had $20 in chips, and the dealer was explaining that he could bet the $20 (because that is what he had) and the bet would be 'matched' by the coupon, i.e. he would win $40 if the bet won.
Now you say you are talking about free bets, which is a different deal. I have received free bet coupons, and the way they are treated where I gamble is that they are the same as a check being bet, i.e. my $10 free bet coupon is the same as if I had two red checks sitting on the felt. If I win my even money bet, I receive $20, $10 for my free bet and $10 for my win.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying the casinos are saying it is a 'free bet', and then only paying the value of the bet, i.e. if you make a $10 'free bet' with the coupon, all you are receiving is $10 when you win, so the coupon is essentially worth $5. I don't know of a casino that handles their free bet or match play coupons this way.
And I have been in casinos where they have allowed me to take a food credit comp and use it to pay for someone else in my party. It sounds like you're in a place that is operating as a grind joint.
- These tickets can ONLY be used one time only, just once. This means, obviously, when the ticket wins or loses - they have to take it, - otherwise it could obviously be used again and again and again. Ridiculous.
- If the ticket loses, they take it. Check.
- If it wins, they pay it at full face value, - and with no outlay from you!! So what's the problem if you use it once, and they take the ticket when paying you - since it can be only used once.
Quote: SACRIf I understand you correctly, you're saying the casinos are saying it is a 'free bet', and then only paying the value of the bet, i.e. if you make a $10 'free bet' with the coupon, all you are receiving is $10 when you win, so the coupon is essentially worth $5. I don't know of a casino that handles their free bet or match play coupons this way.
I would be stunned to get any more than that. Then again, I don't have a lot of experience with this. Just a free Ace in BJ once, you could bet up to $100, which I did, got lucky and was paid $100 with my $100 returned IIRC [for the free Ace BJ paid even I think]
Quote: SACRNow you say you are talking about free bets, which is a different deal. I have received free bet coupons, and the way they are treated where I gamble is that they are the same as a check being bet, i.e. my $10 free bet coupon is the same as if I had two red checks sitting on the felt. If I win my even money bet, I receive $20, $10 for my free bet and $10 for my win.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying the casinos are saying it is a 'free bet', and then only paying the value of the bet, i.e. if you make a $10 'free bet' with the coupon, all you are receiving is $10 when you win, so the coupon is essentially worth $5. I don't know of a casino that handles their free bet or match play coupons this way.
I've never heard of it being done your way. Free play to me has always meant that you get paid the face value on a win (you can only make even-money bets), and lose on a loss. Where is this?
A coupon that leads to you believe you are going to get X if you use it, and you end up getting half of X or one fourth of X or zero because it expired without any expiration, that is what I call TOTAL BULLSHIT.
Now we have TOTAL BULLSHIT coupons all over Vegas. Why? Because one casino starts this bullshit and every other casino does the same thing to be "COMPETITIVE."
But here's my challenge: what the F***? Are the casinos competing to be the biggest douche-bag joints in TOWN?
If I get a $25 coupon and bet that bitch on black, and I am some random DUMB ASS MOTHER FUCKER, I want $50 and I'm going to be confused to get $25.
All you guys who already do all the routines to figure out what the coupon is REALLY worth, you ALL know it's cash value is LESS than HALF of the marked amount because you learned that.
But JOE FUCKING BLOW thinks that COUPON is WORTH what it PRINTED on it.
And this is just _one_ example. Only one. And it's an EXAMPLE. But the overall point is that all the casinos here in Las Vegas are playing stupid little games to make it LOOK like they are giving you MORE free stuff than what they are ACTUALLY giving you.
And at the time you realize what you have is NOT as valuable as what you thought, you are put in the position of being stupid/wrong/unintelligent or whatever.
And you're not. The CASINO is. Because you are SUPPOSED to be having a goddamned good time if the casino executives had a freaking brain and didn't make bonuses so big for all the money they "saved" the casino while people are collectively fuming about the stupid policies they put into place, maybe they would understand what idiots they are for running off business in the longer than a fiscal year cycle.
So it's not just the customers that are going through a bunch of crap, it's the employees too. Nobody is having fun with this kind of crap.
I have always been paid full face value on free bet coupons, and:
1. I have never been paid anything less than the face value. It says $50, I get $50 if it wins, not $25 or $100; if it says $25, I get paid $25 if it wins, not $12.50 or $50, which would be double face value.
2. I have never expect to get paid TWICE the face value for the ticket, nor would I selfishly expect such as "2-to1" payout if it is a free bet play on an even money bet like Red or Black on Roulette. If the ticket says 'FREE BET $25,' and it wins, I expect to see the $25 - NOT $50, and the ticket to be taken by the dealer and dropped in the box. You win the Face value only, as you do NOT expect to take down TWICE its face value, if no cash outlay was also made. How the hell or WHY would anyone expect that?? Many players don't - but SOME do! There are always going to be some miserable, hard to please people in ANY business.
3. I have never been told that the ticket was expired when it was not.
4. I have always accepted and known that I get one win or loss result on the ticket. And the ticket stays up on a push (in pai gow, or on a 12-crap, etc.)
5. On match plays, I match the face value with chips, and get the face value if it wins. If I bet less, match less than the face amount, I get less than face value; If I bet more, the match play ticket only pays up to its face value.
It's not hard to understand for the player or dealer.
Now, some players try to 'SCAM' the free bet tickets, using more than one per card holder per day, or trying to use another card holder's named ticket, or whatever the limitation is. You take your girlfriend's ticket, (it says 'Eileen Smith, card player #0936542) - and try to use it obvious not being an "Eileen" with a beard, the floorman may reasonably say "No Dice" to that. If the free bet is "limit one per round, or per day," and you try to use 37 of them in the same pit on the same day, you might get told 'no' to that also. This is reasonable. Again, unrealistic player expectation may pop up.
However, I recently played $460 worth of coupons at River City in St. Louis, and not only did they pay the full value of the coupon, they replaced the coupon with its value in chips AND then paid off the winning wager, in effect making the coupon worth twice as much as a normal coupon. Also, you could use the coupon on any bet in the casino. I played it on the odds in craps, and made $340. In retrospect, I should have played them on BlackJack.
Quote: teddys90% of those free-bet coupons are only paid the value of the coupon. So in reality they are only worth 1/2 of their face value. (On an even money game, win 0 50% of the time, win 100 50% of the time, not accounting for house edge).
True, but one should indeed expect a gambling wager to have a win or lose type of result! It's a FREE SHOT at winning, NOT a guaranteed Win! How could anyone expect that!
Quote: teddysHowever, I recently played $460 worth of coupons at River City in St. Louis, and not only did they pay the full value of the coupon, they replaced the coupon with its value in chips AND then paid off the winning wager, in effect making the coupon worth twice as much as a normal coupon. Also, you could use the coupon on any bet in the casino. I played it on the odds in craps, and made $340. In retrospect, I should have played them on BlackJack.
That sounds like an awesome promo!!
Sometimes the best promos are those super-generous promos, makes me think "I gotta play here all the time if this casino has this type of customer bearing!" Generous promos really generate business and loyalty. Half-ass promos backfire.
Quote: SACRIt sounds like you're in a place that is operating as a grind joint.
It sure sounds like that. It's a place that apparently doesn't pay anywhere near correctly on some bets: "I've found a way to bet the DC to get paid on aces and ace-deuce."
Quote: AhighI don't play roulette, but I was watching the ball spin, and a customer walks up with a $25 match play coupon to the roulette wheel. He had four $5 chips in addition to the coupon.
Quote: AhighBut I'm talking about a "FREE BET" not a match play.
I can't imagine how I got confused.
And I'm not going to bother to track down the quotes but you also seem to be redefining "loser" as well. At first, you seemed to be indicating a financial loser, now you're saying more like a douche-bag loser.
I'm starting to get the impression communication, at least in written form, isn't your forte.
Quote: Ahigh
If you don't understand the point that I am trying to make, it really isn't going to change if you learn how to read a company's financials. The point is there whether you agree if the casino is "losing" or a "loser" or not. They are acting like one when they do stuff like this.
Oh yeah, I get where you're coming from. I deal with players with the same sense of entitlement every day.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyOh yeah, I get where you're coming from. I deal with players with the same sense of entitlement every day.
Trust me it goes both ways, dealer. You are USED to being a dealer, and when you hear complaints over and over you assume it's the person doing the complaining that has the problem.
As Teddy indicated, there are SOME casinos that fulfill 100% of the expectations of a player who hasn't been trained by the casino industry to expect the coupon to have a value equal to HALF of what is printed on the coupon.
If you have absolutely NO CONSIDERATION for the points that I am making, then consider your SELF as part of the PROBLEM that I am talking about consider the fact that I am the CUSTOMER and you are an employee of the casino, for which you deny is worthy of being considered a "loser."
It is quite entertaining to me that your comeback for my TRYING to help you UNDERSTAND what I am TALKING about, your response is to say:
"I deal with players with the same sense of entitlement every day."
Here's my suggestion, since I don't have to deal with that:
IF YOU DON'T ENJOY YOUR JOB, QUIT YOUR JOB AND FIND A BETTER JOB THAT YOU ENJOY MORE!
The fact is that if you challenged yourself a little bit more, you could probably do better for yourself. If you don't enjoy dealing, I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU QUIT.
A dealer who actually enjoys their job and wants to be the best dealer possible would quickly understand what I'm saying instead of going back and forth about making points like "I don't understand what you're saying."
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyI'm starting to get the impression communication, at least in written form, isn't your forte.
Sometimes the clarity is there: "I VERY RARELY run into ANYONE that I could say, "wow you know more about craps than I do" to the extent, that I would have to say there's nobody I can think of that falls into that category. To the extent that I welcome to meet the guy who knows more than me about it because I have no idea who that person is."
Quote: teddys90% of those free-bet coupons are only paid the value of the coupon. So in reality they are only worth 1/2 of their face value. (On an even money game, win 0 50% of the time, win 100 50% of the time, not accounting for house edge).
However, I recently played $460 worth of coupons at River City in St. Louis, and not only did they pay the full value of the coupon, they replaced the coupon with its value in chips AND then paid off the winning wager, in effect making the coupon worth twice as much as a normal coupon. Also, you could use the coupon on any bet in the casino. I played it on the odds in craps, and made $340. In retrospect, I should have played them on BlackJack.
If they replace them with chips, then they shouldn't mind you betting any bet in the house. You should just bet them on the lowest house edge bet.
If they don't replace them with chips, then they usually limit them to even money bets to make sure that they are worth no more than half their face value. Note that the payout being as high as possible is often more important then the house edge on the bet. Grosjean has an interesting paper about this. For example (from the paper) if you are playing baccarat, the free bet it worth more if you bet it on player, even though the banker bet has the lowest house edge. This is because the fact that banker pays only 19-to-20 instead of 1-1 is more important than the difference in house edge.
Furthermore, even with the "even money bets only" limit, there are still things you can do to increase their value. Essentially, the more likely they are to lose, the more they are worth. So, for example, if you can bet them as the initial ante bet in a game like Mississippi Stud (where you almost always lose the bet) they have much higher value (ie, closer to their face value). You are basically "cheating the system" because, even though the ante bet technically only pays even money, it essentially pays much more (because, on a good starting hand, it gives you the opportunity to make significantly higher "free bets" which you can't lose)
On Three card poker, the free bet is on the PLAY only, (no ANTE bonus effect), even if it pushes on a dealer's Jack-high non-qualification;
or on Pai Gow Poker, it pushes on the Pai Gow poker main bet, but so it never pays above even money. On craps, free bet tickets are usable in the Field.
Having the free bet tickets usable only for BJ, Passline, and Roulette (Odd/Even, Red, Black), limits the players' use of it unacceptably.
Quote: PaigowdanGood point, axiom.
On Three card poker, the free bet is on the PLAY only, (no ANTE bonus effect), even if it pushes on a dealer's Jack-high non-qualification;
or on Pai Gow Poker, it pushes on the Pai Gow poker main bet, but so it never pays above even money. On craps, free bet tickets are usable in the Field.
Having the free bet tickets usable only for BJ, Passline, and Roulette (Odd/Even, Red, Black), limits the players' use of it unacceptably.
PGP is not a great use of the free bet. Similar problem to the banker bet in baccarat -- the commission reduces its value by too much.
Play bet on 3CP can be good IF you use it selectively. You want to use it on playable hands that you are more than 50% to lose (ie, hands that you are playing to "protect" your ante, even though the play bet on its own is -EV). I haven't run the numbers myself, but from what the wizard wrote about "optimal tipping strategy" in that game, I'd assume that those hands are those that are king-high or lower (Wizard? are you reading this? Is that right?). Of course, it's worth more the lower your chances of winning are (since it's allowing you to "protect your ante" without having to call the bet with cash) so you probably want to wait around for bad (but playable) queen-high hands
The field bet is not bad. Assuming that 2 and 12 pay 2x and 3x, the ticket would have an EV of 19/36 (52.78%) of its face value. Again, the fact that it loses more often than it wins, and has higher than even-money payouts on a few results more than makes up for the fact that the HE on the field bet is significantly higher than the pass line. If you're at a casino with no-house-edge field bets (3x on both 2 and 12) that EV rises to 20/36 = 55.56% of face value.
Imagine if, instead of betting $1 in the field, I get a piece of paper, and I write on it, "this is worth $1 free dealer bet on the field."
Then if I roll a field number, I will give you, the dealer, one dollar.
If not, no worries! You would have lost anyway!!!
And if it's a 2 or a 12, I still only give you a dollar.
That sounds fair, right? You wouldn't have a problem with me tipping you that way would you?
How about $0.25 instead of a dollar then.
Let me tell you if you haven't figured it out: it's an insult! Just throwing in $.25 or a nickel as a tip is an insult just like I consider a $5.00 free bet coupon that's worth $2.50 as an insult. It costs me more than $2.50 to drive to any casino in town. Why the hell do I care about a $5 free bet coupon?
I know how to liquidate a coupon, and so does any other person who has half a brain.
Then you bet the liquidated value in REAL CASINO CHIPS of the coupon ON ANYTHING YOU WANT.
That's what experienced gamblers do, you know. They liquidate, and then play without limitations on the liquidated value. SCREW THE RULES! YOU CAN GET AROUND THEM IF YOU WANT AND IF YOU KNOW HOW!!!
The rules ONLY AFFECT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT EXPERIENCED AND ARE THE MOST LIKELY TO BE NEGATIVELY AFFECTED BY THE DETAILS OF HOW THE COUPONS CAN AND CANNOT BE USED.
The truth is that the CASINOS CHEAT BY NOT PAYING FULL AMOUNTS when the customer makes a STUPID BET BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.
The same customers that MIGHT ACTUALLY BE MORE LIKELY TO COME BACK IF IT WEREN'T FOR HAVING SUCH A CRAPPY EXPERIENCE DUE TO SOME BULLSHIT POLICY THAT THE CASINO MADE UP TO TRY TO EARN MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEY ARE LOSING SO BADLY.
And that's EXACTLY why I am making this point about how the coupons in Vegas SUCK.
They suck because the remove the FUN from the game. Just like the bullshit rules about the $40 food coupons at the Silverton.
When I told my friends, "I gamble so much at the Silverton I have hundreds of dollars of free food ORDER ANYTHING YOU WANT."
Then when the bill comes, and I have four people at the table and present four $40 coupons, expecting to get a $160 discount on a $200 meal, they tell me in front of all of my friends, "SO SORRY, AARON HIGHTOWER. WE CANNOT TAKE YOUR FOUR COUPONS!!! ONLY ONE."
HOW EMBARRASSING!! And not even just for me, FOR THE SILVERTON CASINO.
And the part that the casino ALSO doesn't understand is this SAME EMBARRASSING SITUATION happens when a new player that has never bet a coupon before bets a free bet coupon on 1-12 on roulette and gets even money. The dealer doesn't help them until they ask "WHY DID I ONLY GET $25 instead of of $75?" -- there's two reasons, not just one!!! And both of them amount to "BECAUSE THE CASINO DOESN'T CARE IF YOU GET TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF AND THEY DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE FUN. THEY ONLY GIVE YOU THE COUPON TO GET YOUR ASS IN THE DOOR AND THAT IS IT!"
I think that people should start liquidating every single coupon just as a matter of policy and also referring to $50 coupons as $25 coupons, and $10 coupons as $5 coupons explicitly when placing the bet just to make a big deal about how CRAPPY it is that casinos LIE ON THE COUPON pretending the coupon is worth MORE THAN IT IS REALLY WORTH.
Call out the _real_ value of the coupon as you bet it. IE: "let me liquidate this $25 coupon so I can get around the other bullshit rules that apply to coupon bets by converting it to chips" if you have a $50 coupon. And so on.
I am tired of being insulted by these disingenuous corporate policies that corporate casino operations employees come up with. It negatively affects the dealers and the restaurant workers JUST AS MUCH as it negatively affects the players.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe field bet is not bad. Assuming that 2 and 12 pay 2x and 3x, the ticket would have an EV of 19/36 (52.78%) of its face value. Again, the fact that it loses more often than it wins, and has higher than even-money payouts on a few results more than makes up for the fact that the HE on the field bet is significantly higher than the pass line. If you're at a casino with no-house-edge field bets (3x on both 2 and 12) that EV rises to 20/36 = 55.56% of face value.
The last time I was at Fiesta Henderson, a dealer told me that they pay double and triple on coupons in the field there.
This is absolutely atypical. They also do commission on the win on lay bets as does Mandalay Bay.
Most casinos only pay even money on field bet coupons.
Quote: AhighThe last time I was at Fiesta Henderson, a dealer told me that they pay double and triple on coupons in the field there.
This is absolutely atypical. They also do commission on the win on lay bets as does Mandalay Bay.
Don't most places? I know that MGM Grand does. You can bet "no 4" or "no 10" for $50, and it wins $24 ($1 commission). Same at Aria.
Quote:Most casinos only pay even money on field bet coupons.
Oh... then don't bet them there :) Even money on a field bet is terrible; you only win 16 times out of 36. The coupon is only worth 44.44% of it's face value.
But many many Vegas casinos are not that way. Mandalay Bay is also an MGM property, so they probably have more player-oriented policies on coupons than other casinos.
The Silverton only pays even money on field bets. Last time I checked, Red Rock was the same way. But I don't get big coupons from too many different places. So I don't know every policy.
I think that Cosmoplitan gives you chips for your free bets and you can bet them anywhere.
There are some places that do it right (the Cosmo doesn't pay you for your free bet chip, but they do everything else as good as one might imagine).
I am ABSOLUTELY challenging ALL CORPORATE LEVELS of ALL CASINOS to change their policies to be more fair to the player. Just mark the coupons for half of what you are currently marking them for, and allow the player to play them anywhere and pay the coupon AND the win. I cannot imagine how this would backfire. It would only make people happier when they don't have to figure out what is different about a coupon compared to a chip.
Quote: PaigowdanI get and use free bet coupons all the time, as well as match-play coupons. I never had a problem with them, at Stations Casinos, Cannery Group, or Boyd gaming, and found that they are worth exactly what is printed on them IF not expired, and the bet wins.
I have always been paid full face value on free bet coupons, and:
1. I have never been paid anything less than the face value. It says $50, I get $50 if it wins, not $25 or $100; if it says $25, I get paid $25 if it wins, not $12.50 or $50, which would be double face value.
2. I have never expect to get paid TWICE the face value for the ticket, nor would I selfishly expect such as "2-to1" payout if it is a free bet play on an even money bet like Red or Black on Roulette. If the ticket says 'FREE BET $25,' and it wins, I expect to see the $25 - NOT $50, and the ticket to be taken by the dealer and dropped in the box. You win the Face value only, as you do NOT expect to take down TWICE its face value, if no cash outlay was also made. How the hell or WHY would anyone expect that?? Many players don't - but SOME do! There are always going to be some miserable, hard to please people in ANY business.
3. I have never been told that the ticket was expired when it was not.
4. I have always accepted and known that I get one win or loss result on the ticket. And the ticket stays up on a push (in pai gow, or on a 12-crap, etc.)
5. On match plays, I match the face value with chips, and get the face value if it wins. If I bet less, match less than the face amount, I get less than face value; If I bet more, the match play ticket only pays up to its face value.
It's not hard to understand for the player or dealer.
Now, some players try to 'SCAM' the free bet tickets, using more than one per card holder per day, or trying to use another card holder's named ticket, or whatever the limitation is. You take your girlfriend's ticket, (it says 'Eileen Smith, card player #0936542) - and try to use it obvious not being an "Eileen" with a beard, the floorman may reasonably say "No Dice" to that. If the free bet is "limit one per round, or per day," and you try to use 37 of them in the same pit on the same day, you might get told 'no' to that also. This is reasonable. Again, unrealistic player expectation may pop up.
On your point #2, if it says, "Free Bet $25" on the coupon, to me that is the same as betting a green chip. If you bet that on an even money bet, like red or black on roulette, you should receive $50 if the correct color hits. If you bet a green chip on an even money bet, and it wins, why would you not expect to receive another green chip? Saying "if you put a free bet $25 down on red and red hits, you should expect them to take the coupon and only leave you one green chip for $25" is incomprehensible to me, because you're not saying it is a "free" $25 bet then, you are saying it is a $12.50 bet.
I don't think anyone has any problem with anyone taking the coupon if the bet loses, so that is irrelevant to this conversation.
I think what AHigh is saying is simply that some coupons are confusing.
If I put $5 on the pass line at the pit and roll a 7, I expect to be paid $5 for my winning bet, so I now have $10 on the pass line. If I put a $5 free bet coupon on the pass line, and roll a 7, I similarly expect to see $10 on the pass line after they take the coupon and pay me $5 for the winning pass line bet, and $5 for the value of the coupon. I don't think this is that complicated.
When I put that coupon down, I believe I am betting something with a value of $5, so if I win an even money bet, it is $10. I do not think I am betting something that has no value unless I win, in which case I would be paid the value of the coupon only, or $5. If that is what happens, then the real value of that coupon is only $2.50, not $5. Ahigh is just saying some clarity and truth in advertising would be welcome here.
If you get a coupon for a $10 food credit, you expect it to be worth at least $10 of food. When you get a coupon for $10 free cash, you expect to receive a ten dollar bill. When you get a "Free Bet $10" coupon, you expect its value to be worth a $10 bet which pays $20 if it wins, not a $5 bet that pays $10 if a winner.
Quote: Ahigh
They suck because the remove the FUN from the game. Just like the bullshit rules about the $40 food coupons at the Silverton.
When I told my friends, "I gamble so much at the Silverton I have hundreds of dollars of free food ORDER ANYTHING YOU WANT."
Then when the bill comes, and I have four people at the table and present four $40 coupons, expecting to get a $160 discount on a $200 meal, they tell me in front of all of my friends, "SO SORRY, AARON HIGHTOWER. WE CANNOT TAKE YOUR FOUR COUPONS!!! ONLY ONE."
HOW EMBARRASSING!! And not even just for me, FOR THE SILVERTON CASINO.
Ah, now I see where your anger comes from: You got embarrassed in front of your friends. That sucks, man.
The waiter/waitress would have done better to say, "Hey, I'm new here, can you come over here and help me make sure we get you the right credits for your bill?" They then pull you aside and say, "I'm not new here, but I'm guessing you're taking care of all of your buddies there. I don't want to say this in front of them because I don't want to embarrass you, but we're only allowed to accept one $40 coupon for food credit per day, so you're still going to owe us $160." You can then arrange to pay the bill with a credit or debit card, they bring you a receipt that you sign, your friends don't know how much you signed off for, and you have still "taken care of everything", and you're still the great guy who treated everyone to a meal b/c you're the high-roller among your friends. You avoid embarrassment, you know you can use those other coupons selectively at another time, and everyone is happy.
You can't bet the field b/c they pay double and triple on 2/12.
Quote: SACRAh, now I see where your anger comes from: You got embarrassed in front of your friends. That sucks, man.
The waiter/waitress would have done better to say, "Hey, I'm new here, can you come over here and help me make sure we get you the right credits for your bill?" They then pull you aside and say, "I'm not new here, but I'm guessing you're taking care of all of your buddies there. I don't want to say this in front of them because I don't want to embarrass you, but we're only allowed to accept one $40 coupon for food credit per day, so you're still going to owe us $160." You can then arrange to pay the bill with a credit or debit card, they bring you a receipt that you sign, your friends don't know how much you signed off for, and you have still "taken care of everything", and you're still the great guy who treated everyone to a meal b/c you're the high-roller among your friends. You avoid embarrassment, you know you can use those other coupons selectively at another time, and everyone is happy.
No the Silverton should be embarrassed too. When I went last night (I have three $40 coupons left that all expire on December 7th), I checked the sign AGAIN at the front of the restaurant, and the sign says.
FOOD COUPONS:
Please limit one coupon
per guest per visit.
That means, four guests, four coupons to me.
And in fact, they had told me earlier that if I had two coupons I could use both coupons if I had two people.
Nowhere did it say "limit one coupon per PARTY per visit."
And there is NO WAY that I should be required to define myself as a guest and my friends as non-guests.
The bottom line is that the policy is embarrassing to the casino and the people who work at the casino as much as it is to me.
I also told my three friends "The Silverton has the best food promotion of anywhere in Vegas in November."
That is now OFFICIALLY DISTANT HISTORY.
Not only that, the SILVERTON HAS A HUGE BLACK EYE ON IT'S FACE. They didn't do it this way last year or even three weeks ago, and EVERY PLAYER WHO GETS FOOD COUPONS generally is aware of this change reflecting a tightening of the belt of Silverton.
Last year I took myself, my woman, her mom, her dad, and our two kids and we had $250 worth of food all at once on coupons, and the whole group of people reflected on HOW GREAT THE SILVERTON CASINO WAS.
This year? F*** the SILVERTON!!!! Both years I bet bigger than normal to earn those coupons, so I held up my end of the bargain, but the Silverton just decided to act like a loser who didn't want to honor the true value of the coupon that I earned by making me come back as many times as I have coupons as if they are coming out AHEAD somehow with a little counter for how many times I come back. I ALREADY GO EVERY F***ING DAY (or I did).
I'm just wondering what is next at the Silverton? Are they going to go to 6oz soda glasses for free soda like many other casinos to be "competitive."
GOOD LUCK TO THE SILVERTON!!!!! It just looks like to me they are joining the _other_ losing casinos at operating like losers. All I want to do now is to help them lose more quickly.
Quote: AHighThe last time I was at Fiesta Henderson, a dealer told me that they pay double and triple on coupons in the field there.
This is absolutely atypical. They also do commission on the win on lay bets as does Mandalay Bay.
Most casinos only pay even money on field bet coupons.
And..
Quote: AxiomOfChoicePGP is not a great use of the free bet. Similar problem to the banker bet in baccarat -- the commission reduces its value by too much.
There is no commission on EZPG, and if used on a commission table, or Baccarrat Banker, the commission is forgiven for free bet tickets and promo chips, as being another promotion itself. Blackjacks are paid 3:2 on free bet tickets. So as long as the ticket isn't used on a bonus bet, or on a main that that has a strong bonus component (ANTE bet), the free bet can be used on any game that offers a reasonably even-money bet. I will admit this is a positive and reasonable (read: "non-anal") approach by some competitve casino operators, to invite you in to play and gamble.
There was a deal where tape drives were advertised as "compressed megabytes" in terms of storage capacity at one time.
One company did it, and then they ALL started doing it to be "competitive."
The result was an UNHAPPY CONSUMER!
Thank the Lord Jesus Christ that we don't do all digital storage technology with compressed megabytes and argue about what compression standard needs to be used to figure out the "real" compressed megabytes of storage.
It's ALL BULLSHIT! Just like this coupon mess. All this stuff GOES AWAY IF YOU DON'T TRY TO LIE ABOUT HOW GREAT THE GODDAMN MOTHER FUCKING COUPON IS. All the people who look at this stuff know it's only worth half. QUIT PRETENDING YOU ARE GENIUSES OVER THERE IN CORPORATE CASINO LAND!
This crap arguing about where to bet the coupons is for THE BIRDS!
Most people are perfectly thankful, happy, and satisfied to receive these promos, and would be dissastisfied if not offered them.
Most people also seem to be able to enjoy them without much ado.
Also, at least some people seem to be interested in how to best use them.
Quote: PaigowdanThere is no commission on EZPG,
That's true. But that's technically a different game (and one which I've never seen)
Quote:and if used on a commission table, or Baccarrat Banker, the commission is forgiven for free bet tickets and promo chips, as being another promotion itself.
I've never seen that. In the places where I've played promo chips, that has not been the case. If it is the case, then banker becomes a good choice since you win more than 50% of the time.
Quote:Blackjacks are paid 3:2 on free bet tickets.
Using them in blackjack is an interesting proposition. It changes correct basic strategy slightly.
BJ switch would be really interesting with one coupon and one real money hand. Switching strategy would completely change, since you would want to protect your real money hand more than your coupon hand.
Now, obviously, you earned these coupons - your player card or name is all over the coupons. That means that you should not have the entitlement to give these coupons to anyone outside of the casino. For example, the coupons obviously would have some cash value to you. For example, at my local casino, I get a $40 meal coupon every month, as does my wife. For that, we can eat a couple of free buffets each month.
Now, if I put those coupons on sale at EBay for $20, and sold them, the casino of course would rightfully balk at the deal. Actually, a very famous Canadian airline did just that - there was a market for upgrade coupons that expired at the end of February every year, and the frequent fliers sold the coupons to those who could use that, and the airline probably lost hundreds of thousands in lost upgrades.
So, the coupons that you get are essentially non-transferrable. That should be obvious. The casino's point of course, and your bone of contention is that the coupons should be transferrable to those in your party. I think you have a case, but I think the casino will just tighten up the policy further.
Quote: boymimboAhigh, you should probably go to the casino host at the Silverton to get your $120 back.
Now, obviously, you earned these coupons - your player card or name is all over the coupons. That means that you should not have the entitlement to give these coupons to anyone outside of the casino. For example, the coupons obviously would have some cash value to you. For example, at my local casino, I get a $40 meal coupon every month, as does my wife. For that, we can eat a couple of free buffets each month.
Now, if I put those coupons on sale at EBay for $20, and sold them, the casino of course would rightfully balk at the deal. Actually, a very famous Canadian airline did just that - there was a market for upgrade coupons that expired at the end of February every year, and the frequent fliers sold the coupons to those who could use that, and the airline probably lost hundreds of thousands in lost upgrades.
So, the coupons that you get are essentially non-transferrable. That should be obvious. The casino's point of course, and your bone of contention is that the coupons should be transferrable to those in your party. I think you have a case, but I think the casino will just tighten up the policy further.
Here's my perspective. The casino already took the path of embarrassing me. They lost track of the fact that I am the customer and they allowed that to happen.
You can't un-ring a bell. $120 is absolutely not the problem that I have. To be direct: I don't give a shit about the $120.
The Silverton f**ed up as far as I'm concerned, and what is done is done. Even if they gave me $1000 in promotional chips, that doesn't undo what they did to me.
I have had these issues at other casinos in the past. This is just what happens when corporate policy gets pushed down the pipeline without regard towards the long term effects.
Here's another discussion about corporate policies and how they affected me at Mandalay Bay:
http://forum.goodshooter.com/topic52.html
They wanted to save money at the restaurants, and that's why they made these policy changes on the coupons.
Well maybe they saved money on the restaurants, I don't know. But they have done damage to the relationship with this player that will never be the same again.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThat's true [no commission on EZ pai Gow.] But that's technically a different game (and one which I've never seen)
Actually, it is exactly the same Pai Gow game in play, or very, very close to it - just without the commission, and with a dealer push on a queen-high pai gow. That's it.
The Barona Casino in San Diego, the Cannery Group in Las Vegas, and the Borgata casino in Atlantic city use it extensively. It is also big in the Mid-west. The Majority of Missouri casinos have adopted it. It should go live at the Venetian, here in Las Vegas this coming week. On the strip, it's also at the Riviera and Hooters.
And I asssure you, if you go to casinos, you'll be seeing a lot more of it in the future, especially if you play Pai Gow. Poker.
Quote: PaigowdanActually, it is exactly the same Pai Gow game in play, just without the commission, and with a dealer push on a queen-high pai gow. That's it.
Right. Different rules. Different game. Much worse house edge. I wouldn't play it... why would I play the "EZ" version with its 2.5% house edge when I can pre-pay commission, bank half the hands, and have a house edge of just 1.2% heads up against the dealer? At over 2x the house edge, the only "easy" part of the game is how easy it is for the house to take all your money. EDIT: fixed house edge numbers
Sorry, Dan, I know that this is your game, but it's a game for suckers. It takes a great game with a low house edge and turns it into just another game for ploppies who are bad at math. Basically, it's the 6:5 of PGP. I can see why the casinos like it, though.
Quote:The Barona Casino in San Diego, the Cannery Group in Las Vegas, and the Borgata casino in Atlantic city use it exclusively. It is also big in the Mid-west. The Majority of Missouri casinos have adopted it. It will go live at the Venetian, here in Las Vegas this coming week.
And I asssure you, if you go to casinos, you'll be seeing a lot more of it in the future, especially if you play Pai Gow. Poker.
Out of all of those places, the only one I've ever been is the Venetian (which doesn't have it yet) which explains why I've never seen it.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceRight. Different rules. Different game. Much worse house edge. I wouldn't play it... why would I play the "EZ" version with its 2.5% house edge when I can pre-pay commission, bank half the hands, and have a house edge of just 1.2% heads up against the dealer? At over 2x the house edge, the only "easy" part of the game is how easy it is for the house to take all your money. EDIT: fixed house edge numbers
No.
1. Same game, same strategy rules, same banking rules, same everything, - even the same progressive paytables and bonus bet offerings. AND LOWER house edge, as a matter of fact. Just no commission and a queen-high push. Check your math AND facts.
2. banking is allowed on EZ Pai Gow as in any place where banking is allowed on their regular Pai Gow games in general. Not material.
3. You're right - the house edge is different. EZ pai Gow is lower; it is 2.46% for EZ Pai Gow, and regular commission-based Pai Gow Poker is 2.73% - (which is higher, for the mathematically challenged) - according to Mike Shackleford, the gaming mathematician and the administrator of this site. that is about 0.3% lower.
Quote: AxiomofChoiceSorry, Dan, I know that this is your game, but it's a game for suckers. It takes a great game with a low house edge and turns it into just another game for ploppies who are bad at math. Basically, it's the 6:5 of PGP. I can see why the casinos like it, though.
Casinos like it because it gets more action. And as for it being some sort of a "6:5" version - Not if you checked your math, or did any from the get-go.
What math do YOU have? Please show us, or just send me some real proof in a PM, if you want to keep it private.
You stand corrected, if you think Mike Shackleford's math is wrong, or Charles Mousseau's.
Do respond.
Quote: AxiomofChoiceOut of all of those places, the only one I've ever been is the Venetian (which doesn't have it yet) which explains why I've never seen it.
Okay, how about these places, - if you don't want to meet me in Las Vegas to play it one of many strip and local casinos, - aside from two dozen other states in these United States.....:
1. Barona Casino, San Diego.
2. The Borgata Casino in Atlantic City
3. Hooter's Casino, Las Vegas
4. Riviera Casino, the Las Vegas Strip
5. Lumiere place, St. louis.
6. Harrah's, Kansas City.
7. PALA CASINO
8. Boulder Station, Las Vegas
9. The Cannery Casino Group, and Rampart Casino, Las Vegas
10. Jackson Rancheria Casino, with seven tables of EZ Pai Gow, California.
11. Ameristar Casinos, from St. Charles, Kansas City, Council Bluffs, Iowa, East Chicago, etc., etc., etc.
I guess most of these casinos you've never heard of or been to. Doesn't matter - others have, and they come to play.
[Shall I edit and append this to list Sixty tables in casinos in 22 states and Canada, - or is this enough for us....]
Not quite Shufflemaster levels - but a damn good start.
Quote: Paigowdansame banking rules
If banking is allowed, then, yes, it's a fine game. My understanding was that banking was not allowed, which more than doubles the house edge in a heads-up game. When I play, I bank at every opportunity.
If banking is allowed, it seems like that would just confuse matters, since now you are playing with different rules on house-banked and player-banked hands. I'd think it would be especially confusing at a full table where many players are banking.
Quote:
Okay, how about these places, - if you don't want to meet me in Las Vegas to play it one of many strip and local casinos, - aside from two dozen other states in these United States.....:
1. Barona Casino, San Diego.
2. The Borgata Casino in Atlantic City
3. Hooter's Casino, Las Vegas
4. Riviera Casino, the Las Vegas Strip
5. Lumiere place, St. louis.
6. Harrah's, Kansas City.
7. PALA CASINO
8. Boulder Station, Las Vegas
9. The Cannery Casino Group, and Rampart Casino, Las Vegas
10. Jackson Rancheria Casino, with seven tables of EZ Pai Gow, California.
11. Ameristar Casinos, from St. Charles, Kansas City, Council Bluffs, Iowa, East Chicago, etc., etc., etc.
I can honestly say that I have never gambled at a single one of these casinos (I have been to the Riviera, on one trip, for a bridge tournament, but I did not gamble there) Remember that I'm not local. When I go to Vegas, it's as a tourist, and so I usually gamble at the major strip casinos.
That's not really a comment on its popularity. You said that it was going to be installed at the Venetian, so it is making its way to the strip.
Quote:I guess most of these casinos you've never heard of. Doesn't matter - others have, and they come to play.
I didn't say I hadn't heard of them.
And Pai Gow Banking is allowed by the local casino's policy only, - not by me or the distributor. I am against player banking on any casino pit game, be it Blackjack, Roulette, Pai Gow poker - where the same game is also offered in regular casino non-banking mode, - as it bogs the game down, and creates poker-room type problems in the casino pit. I am against player banking on any casino pit game, - but I do NOT make that local casino call.
The "facts" you claimed about the game play being different, or the house edge of my game being higher - when it is was actually lower - was wrong and incorrect, and was just done to take a shot at me, and to besmirch my game's repuation, - as a personal attack.
Perhaps you did this because you disagree with me on other issues - whatever - but please don't falsify the characteristics of my game, or imply that it has few installs because you haven't seen it. A lot of people have indeed seen it , and they play it.
You want to call me a dodo bird or something, sure, that's one thing. But don't falsify any actual math or procedures or installs on the product, in an attempt to discredit me or anyone else.
You want to discredit the game - then simply present the real facts of the game play and procedures, - and its mathematics - that are accurate and correct, and describe the game's real problems at hand. That's different, and fine with me.
Quote: PaigowdanYou were taking a position of "well, what casinos IS the game at!" - so I named a few, along with you claiming that "it's a sucker's game like 6:5 blackjack (huh?)" when it is a lower house edge, - and a better player edge. I am a Pai Gow player myself, and wanted to see that improvement.
And Pai Gow Banking is allowed by the local casino's policy only, - not by me or the distributor. I am against player banking on any casino pit game, be it Blackjack, Roulette, Pai Gow poker - where the same game is also offered in regular casino non-banking mode, - as it bogs the game down, and creates poker-room type problems in the casino pit. I am against player banking on any game, - but I do NOT make that local casino call.
PGP without player banking is a scam. It's like 6:5 BJ -- it takes a good game with well-established rules and twists them in the house's favor. This was the point I was trying to make.
The wizard refers to casinos that "zig-zag" the opportunity to bank between players and house (so that the house can bank half the hands, even at a full table) as "less reputable". In this case, how would you describe those that disallow banking completely? Even less than less reputable? Outright thieves?
FWIW, the reason that I equated EZ PGP with "no player banking" was that the wizard's page on EZ PGP claims that one difference between PGP and EZ PGP is that most casinos don't allow player banking on EZ PGP. As I said, I've never seen the game in a casino, so the wizard's page is all I have to go on.
If this is not true, and there is no correlation between the EZ variant and the lack of banking, then you should ask him to correct the error on his page (because, as I said, it's listed as one of the differences between EZ and regular PGP). If it is true (and most casinos don't allow it) then I stand by what I said. I put "no player banking" in the same category as 6:5 BJ.
Quote:The "facts" you claimed about the gma eplay being different,
I didn't say that the game play was different; I said that the game was different. It is. It has to be. If it wasn't it wouldn't be "your" game.
Quote:or the house edge of my game being higher - when it is was actually lower - was wrong and incorrect, and was just done to take a shot at me, and to besmirch my game's repuation, - as a personal attack.
I said that it's a worse game if banking is not allowed. And, it is. I think I clarified that above.
If banking is allowed, then I just don't see the point of the game. I don't play EZ Baccarat either. I guess I don't find commission "hard", so I don't see how the commission-free version is "easy".
Quote:Perhaps you did this because you disagree with me on other issues - whatever - but please don't falsify the characteristics of my game, or imply that it has few installs because you haven't seen it. A lot of people have indeed seen it , and they play it.
I never said it had few installs. I just said that I had never seen it. From your list, most of the installs do seem to be at the lower-end casinos, though. Maybe that's because the EZ variant makes more sense for green or red chip bettors, since it gets rid of the quarters. Or maybe it's just that the higher-end places are more conservative and not so quick to try new games. Or maybe it's some other reason. I don't really know.
Quote:You want to call me a dodo bird or something, that's one thing. But don't falsify any actual math or statistics on my product, in an attempt to discredit me or anyone else.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicePGP without player banking is a scam. It's like 6:5 BJ -- it takes a good game with well-established rules and twists them in the house's favor. This was the point I was trying to make.
No it's not.
Casino-banked PGP is perfectly fine and is enjoyed by legions, as is card room Pai Gow Poker. And banking is the policy of the individual casino. So, if it has a LOWER house edge AND can be banked - it's an improvement for the players and the game, NOT a 6:5 Blackjack development.
Quote: AxiomofChoiceThe wizard refers to casinos that "zig-zag" the opportunity to bank between players and house (so that the house can bank half the hands, even at a full table) as "less reputable". In this case, how would you describe those that disallow banking completely? Even less than less reputable? Outright thieves?
That's a ridiculous statement. Many casino operators are heading in the direction of removing player banking from the pit as an operational disruption and as an annoyance to non-banking players - which it is.
Quote: AxiomofchoiceFWIW, the reason that I equated EZ PGP with "no player banking" was that the wizard's page on EZ PGP claims that one difference between PGP and EZ PGP is that most casinos don't allow player banking on EZ PGP. As I said, I've never seen the game in a casino, so the wizard's page is all I have to go on.
Some casinos do, some casinos don't. I prefer that they don't, but they (the casino operators) make the call.
And some casinos using commission PGP don't allow banking, while some EZ Pai Gow casinos (such as the Fiesta Henderson) do allow it. I deal EZ pai Gow at the Fiesta, and routinely have banking players.
Quote: AxiomofChoiceIf this is not true, and there is no correlation between the EZ variant and the lack of banking, then you should ask him to correct the error on his page (because, as I said, it's listed as one of the differences between EZ and regular PGP). If it is true (and most casinos don't allow it) then I stand by what I said. I put "no player banking" in the same category as 6:5 BJ.
Mike may correct it if he wants; we discourage it, but do not forbid it. More casinos are moving away from player banking in the pit as casino policy, so his page should be correct just given time. To equate player banking with 6:5 Blackjack is a stretch.
Quote: AxiomofchoiceI didn't say that the game play was different; I said that the game was different. It is. It has to be. If it wasn't it wouldn't be "your" game.
I own the patent on the commission-free mechanism on true blue pai Gow poker. Same Strategy, same rules. Bob Kearns owned the patent on the intermittent windshield wiper, but cars are still cars. You cannot call a car with a differently patented windshield wiper "not a car." Some people prefered intermittent windshield wipers, and bought cars with them, making it a standard. WTH.
Quote: AxiomofChoiceI said that it's a worse game if banking is not allowed. And, it is. I think I clarified that above.
Pure Opinion. I think it runs better without banking. I also prefer vanilla to chocolate, WTH.
Quote: AxiomofchoiceIf banking is allowed, then I just don't see the point of the game. I don't play EZ Baccarat either. I guess I don't find commission "hard", so I don't see how the commission-free version is "easy".
Fine. You want player banking, go to the poker room and pay a rake.
I never said it had few installs. I just said that I had never seen it. From your list, most of the installs do seem to be at the lower-end casinos, though. Maybe that's because the EZ variant makes more sense for green or red chip bettors, since it gets rid of the quarters. Or maybe it's just that the higher-end places are more conservative and not so quick to try new games. Or maybe it's some other reason. I don't really know.
You want to call me a dodo bird or something, that's one thing. But don't falsify any actual math or statistics on my product, in an attempt to discredit me or anyone else.
Quote: PaigowdanThat's a ridiculous statement. Many casino operators are heading in the direction of removing player banking from the pit as an operational disruption and as an annoyance to non-banking players - which it is.
Of course they are. They are moving to replace real blackjack with 6:5; it doesn't surprise me that they are moving to replace real PGP with this no banking garbage. Anything to increase the house edge.
Quote:To equate player banking with 6:5 Blackjack is a stretch.
6:5 adds 1.39% to the house edge in blackjack. No player banking adds 1.4% to the house edge in regular PGP. How can you not equate them? They are the same, down to 1/100 of a percent.
In both cases, the casino is changing a well-established rule in a well-known game to add significantly to the house edge, hoping that the customers will be too stupid to notice or care. A well-educated player would not play PGP without banking any more than he would play 6:5 BJ. Maybe if they put some half-dressed dancing girls on a stage above the pit they can get the drunken frat boys to play, just like they do with 6:5.
Quote:I own the patent on the commission-free mechanism on true blue pai Gow poker.
I'll bet the guy who invented EZ Baccarat is kicking himself.
Quote:Pure Opinion.
No, it's a fact that the house edge is more than doubled when you get rid of player banking. From the Wizard's site: "If the player were to use the optimal single house way against the Trump Plaza house way then the house edge as the banker would be -0.19% and as the player would be 2.60%, for an average of 1.20%." So, we are talking about a difference between 1.2% and 2.6%. Not even in the same ballpark.
Quote:Fine. You want player banking, go to the poker room and pay a rake.
No need. I'll just go to a real casino that offers real PGP, which includes player banking. Not these low roller joints that change the rules so that it's so "EZ" for the casinos to win all the money as quickly as possible.
FWIW, where I play, I bank hands when it's my turn (half the hands if no one else is banking, or if it's heads up), I prepay my commission (it's not so hard to put a red chip on top of a black chip... not sure why I need anything "EZ"er than that) AND if I screw up and foul my hand (it's never happened yet, but who knows) they will set my hand the house way instead of just taking my money. It turns out that some casinos still know how to treat their customers well and give them a fair bet.
Quote: sodawaterI suspect you know full well why your game has more installs at low betting limits as opposed to "higher-end": bigger bettors won't tolerate gimmicky games that add to the house edge replacing perfectly good traditional games.
This is incorrect. EZ pai Gow has a lot of huge-money house-banked installs, from the Barona casino in San Diego to the Borgata in Atlantic City.
Many players felt the commission itself was needless and gimicky, and prefer getting full pay on hands won, instead of getting short-changed on every single hand won, in their opinion. At the Barona $1,000 and up per hand are common, using "gold" chips in the rack, - and where the commissions would be huge, and hugely felt.
As for Axiom, there is no "better" version between a player-banked game or a casino pit game, it is choice and preference.
One cannot say that Ultimate Texas Hold 'em is "better" than "Poker room hold 'em," or that "Poker room Poker is better than Ultimate texas hold 'em Poker. It is a foolish argument.
And the casinos who use EZ pai Gow, or Fortune Pai Gow, or Imperial Pai Gow, or Frankie's Pai Gow, are not inherently better or worse or good or evil - based on their brand of Pai Gow. This is like saying "well, better people drive Chevrolets than they do Ford Motor cars!" Another silly argument.
Quote: sodawaterBorgata in AC used to have 3 PGP tables that were always packed every night. It now has 2 PGP tables that are even more crowded and 1 EZPGP table that is always empty.
This is also not the case, the tables are consistently full, - and they may be interested in getting more.
As a matter of fact, Sodawater, if you are down for it, why don't we make a bet of several thousand dollars based on the direction of EZ Pai Gow installs at the above mentioned casino, or in the U.S. market in general. PM me, and we can set up the bet and the conditions, and have someone at this board be the custodian of the money, and the terms of the bet. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is - are you?
So Look guys, since you're making a bunch of silly arguments to discredit a game that's doing well, why don't you say, "I'm annoyed at Dan and hate Dan, - so I'm going to make up some bad stuff about his game that is false, to try to hurt him." What the Hell
If you're serious, take me up on the bet, and we can track it here.
Dan.
Edit: both Switch and Paradigm of this forum came to the Fiesta Henderson tonight, and played on a jammed up EZ Pai Gow game - while the Fortune game next to was empty. I dealt to them, in fact, and I wrote this on my break period; Switch had to wait to get a Seat on the table, while paradigm was seated. Ask them if this was indeed the case.
I will PM you sodawater, about the bet concerning the direction the game will go. We can pick someone at this board to be custodian. Do you want to put your money where you mouth is?
Quote: PaigowdanAs for Axiom, there is no "better" version between a player-banked game or a casino pit game, it is choice and preference.
Over double the house edge. Saying that some people prefer that is like saying that some people prefer 6:5 blackjack, or that some people prefer to make their come bets while playing crapless craps instead of regular craps, or that people prefer VP machines to have inferior paytables.
I'm sure that the casinos prefer these things because they make so much more money. I can't imagine any player who understands the math of the game preferring them.
Say I play a hand of PGP. Before the next hand, the pit boss tells me, hey, since you are such a good customer, we are going to let you win copies on the next hand! Then, suppose I say, no thanks, I prefer to lose copies rather than win them. Would that make sense to you? Let's be honest about who "prefers" the house winning copies -- the house prefers it! Any sane player would prefer to win whenever possible.
I'm sure that you also think that players prefer to take 6:5 on their blackjacks instead of 3:2, and they prefer not to win their 11s in craps on their come-out rolls. Why, just the other day I saw a player with a $100 come bet at the craps table, and he rolled an 11, and they tried to pay him! The nerve!!! He immediately told them that he prefers not to win on those rolls and demanded that they take their money back immediately, and only pay him if he managed to roll another 11 before 7'ing out.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOver double the house edge. Saying that some people prefer that is like saying that some people prefer 6:5 blackjack, or that some people prefer to make their come bets while playing crapless craps instead of regular craps, or that people prefer VP machines to have inferior paytables.
I'm sure that the casinos prefer these things because they make so much more money. I can't imagine any player who understands the math of the game preferring them.
Say I play a hand of PGP. Before the next hand, the pit boss tells me, hey, since you are such a good customer, we are going to let you win copies on the next hand! Then, suppose I say, no thanks, I prefer to lose copies rather than win them. Would that make sense to you? Let's be honest about who "prefers" the house winning copies -- the house prefers it! Any sane player would prefer to win whenever possible.
No - the players themselves pretty much prefer it, and there are many reasons for it aside from your "oh - get a 1.0836574% house edge reduction from it, Wowie !!" Keep in mind that casinos HAVE to - to a tremedous degree - supply what players want, to get business, and if players wanted player banking, then there would be NO trend to eliminate player banking, as done by many Mid-west casinos and the Cannery group here in Las Vegas. It is NOT just "oh! those greedy casinos make such-and-such more per xx.xx hands!" No it isn't.
Some real examples on issues with player banking ALONE that neither Axiom or Soda seem up on:
1. Player banking causes game slow-downs by adding an extra hand setting round within the same deal - annoying players as much as the house.
2. Player banking causes extra dealer and pit work and errors, with bonus bets being paid-and-taken separately by the house - while the banked main bets go to and from player 'X' - causing added delays and confusion to players, dealers, pit personnel, and surveillance alike.
3. Player banking annoys many players, causing them to say "If I wanted players banking against me, I would gone to the fxxking poker room, damn it! - where casino personnel hear this and correctly assume, that as a player annoyance, it might be bad for business, in addition to bogging the damn game down severely.
4. Often, a banking player can't cover the action, either because his bankroll discreetly dwindled, or because other players step up their bets to thwart banking by other players - which is frequent seen by them as an act of showboating/show-off showmanship by the banker player, an annoying delay, or an act of greed to either grab the other players' money, or to grab a petty percentage via the two-card side hand copies.
5. There is also contention between players, and between a player and dealer, as to WHO is next to bank, or WHEN the bank is to return to the player's side, and WHAT limit a player may bank at. This is especially so if a player was playing two hands - "does he get to bank at the combined value, or at the value of his largest hand, or at the level of his lowest hand's bet?"
6. Approximately 3% of rounds dealt on Pai Gow Poker tables involve player banking, and about 97% are straight up pit-banked Pai Gow poker. Clearly, both players in general and pit personnel alike feel it adds very little of a positive nature, while it causes massive and unneeded operational headaches, contentions, and disputes in the pit, all for the sake of either a "game show off," or someone attempting to grate off a personal percentage point at the expense of all others involved on the game. Remember that the other fellow players lose to YOUR copies - as well as THEIR money. This is aside from the fact that "mixing poker-room style play with pit banked play in the middle of live money games operations - consistently just adds a mess." ALL Casinos that have abandoned player banking in the pit have seen increases in both operational efficiency as well as customer patronage as a result of well-running games.
Now I've been working full time in the casino pits here in Las Vegas for the past seven years as a dice and Pai Gow dealer, as well as a game designer of some note on pai Gow games, and I certainly know the details of this issue; and I don't see this as a "6:5 Blackjack Red herring" issue.
So far, I have heard from SodaWater and Axiom such false/question claims and opinions presented as as facts, such as:
1. "the House edge on EZ Pai Gow is higher" - when it is documented in this industry, as well as by the gaming mathematician here who runs this site, as LOWER than commission pai Gow poker; Check out our sister site Wizard of odds.
2. that No commission Pai Gow is viewed as a "gimmick" - when in reality "getting slammed with a commission skim" on every one of your even-money wins is viewed as a scam on a straight up game like Pai Gow, and is also of a higher house edge;
3. That "Oh - only those $5 Nickel joints prefer No Commission" - when the high-money players - who are the ones getting slammed with big commissions on their big money "even money" wins - strongly prefer not getting hit with these commissions.... You bet $10,000 at a high-limit Pai Gow game, you do NOT want to pay a $500 skim on it right back to the house! That's a hell of a car payment on just ONE bet's commission alone! And if you THINK that the Barona Casino, Pala Casino, and the Borgata Hotel are "low-roller joints," - then you know damn little about the gaming industry. ...Yet on a $5 game, the commission on a win is just a 25c quarter. As such, the commission games are tailored for low-stakes action. That's the real deal on this.
4. That I've been told "Oh! Your game sits idled when the other commission games get action." No, this is not the reports I get and need to Verify - in fact the table drop AND table hold stats of EZ Pai Gow, Fortune pai Gow, Emperor's Challenge, and Imperial Pai Gow are PUBLICLY listed side by side for ALL Missouri casinos, a good sample - and I can assure you that the EZ pai Gow numbers are strongest, - with increasing installs. Same in California and in New Jersey. In fact, You can examine these public numbers yourself at Missouri Gaming Commission Website. Please do so, so you can know what you're talking about.
5. In my last week of dealing at the casino I work at, Two forum members here - both of whom are game designers - stopped in to see me there. Of all things, I was dealing EZ pai Gow..... Paradigm grabbed the last open seat on the game, late Sunday night. Switch and his wife, also of this forum, had to wait until a player playing TWO hands colored up and left to get seats - while the other commission Pai Gow game sat dead with NO players. I was thankful I was not on dice. Not only was I there, two other forum members were there too, - and I can tell you they were NOT "AxiomOfChoice" and "SodaWater." If these two guys want to show up in Vegas, I'll take them on a tour of the East Side Cannery, Hooters, Rampart Casino, Riviera, - so they can see for themselves next to me.
In fact, I am so certain that Axiom and Sodawater are either just shot-taking at my game without facts, or just talking out of their backsides, that if they want to make a hard money Proposition Bet on the direction of this game, then -
- I'd be happy if they'd put their money where there mouths are, if they aren't talking crap. We can monitor this bet scenario right here at this board, from real State gaming commission reports - if they're up to the challenge.
