Stupid craps question that ahs probably already been covered anyway...

My apologies in advance if this has been answered already.

So, imagine there's a casino offering only 2X odds max on all points. Since the best bet on the table is pass/come (or don'tpass/don't come) with full odds, in this casino that bet's somewhat limited compared to other places.

Now, in the case of playing the pass line, since the most likely points to hit are 6 & 8, would it make sense to place 2X odds on this point but to also place the points?

Here's the example: I bet $5 on pass and six come up in the come out roll. Next I place double odds behind the pass line bet, and place the six for, say, $18.

What would the house edge be then?

Thanks!

I am too likely to make a calculation error for me to be the one to tell you the combined house edge on those bets -- leave that to the math folks.

I'll just say this, the pass line bet (followed by 2x odds when a point number is established) is a better bet than any of the place bets, mostly because you have the advantage over the house during the come-out roll -- 8 ways to win and only 4 ways to lose on that roll.

Now suppose you bet $5 on pass, the point of 6 is set, and you have your 2x odds bet down. Then you are interested in getting more money into play on 6. You can either add a place bet, add a buy bet, or add to both your line bet and the free odds. Buy bets are never advantageous on 6 & 8, so forget about those.

In comparing place vs. increased line+odds, let's consider options that involve the same amounts of money and which do not involve fractional payouts. For example, you could increase your line bet by $30 and increase your odds bet by $60 or you could place the same $90 on the number. In either case, if that 6 is rolled before the seven, you win $5 + $12 = $17 for your original bet, plus either $30 + $72 = $102 for the additional line+odds wager or $90 * 7/6 = $105 for the place bet. If you are limited to 2x odds, adding a place bet on the 6 is better than adding to your line bet late and adding more odds. If you are allowed higher free odds, it may be better to add to the line+odds than to add a place bet, but the HE won't be as good as having placed the higher line bet to begin with when you had a chance to win on the come-out roll.

It is more difficult to compare bets of other amounts. For example, you mentioned an $18 place bet on the 6. If it won, you would be paid $21. What change in the pass line+odd bet do you want to compare this to? If you increased the line bet by $6 and the odds bet by $12, and the 6 was rolled, you would get shorted on the payout -- the additional bet should pay $6 + $12 * 6/5 = $20.40. Not only is the proportion worse than for the place bet, but you would get shorted that 40 cents. If they offer more than 2x, the proportion might be better on the line+odds than on the place bet, but you might get shorted on the fractional payout, just as you would if you placed the 6 for $20. It's hard to make the comparisons until you look at bets where everything comes out even, like the $30 + $60 increase I suggested above.

Quote: Nareed

What would the house edge be then?

I believe it was Goatcabin who pointed out that altho it may be difficult to calculate HE, it is a pretty simple thing to just look at the EV of each bet and trust that it is independent overall, and be confident that if the EV consequences don't look good that will tell you what you need to know.

Even the low HE of free odds combined with the line bet is just an illusion if it means you are just adding odds to the same number of minimum amount allowed bets you would have made anyway; the lack of change in EV tells you that.

Quote: Nareed

So, imagine there's a casino offering only 2X odds max on all points. Since the best bet on the table is pass/come (or don'tpass/don't come) with full odds, in this casino that bet's somewhat limited compared to other places.

That is what house limits are all about. It keeps the variance in the range that makes the casino happy, not necessarily the player also.This used to be the norm in Nevada casinos. Also remember that 2X odds is for the outside point numbers 4,5,9 and 10.
Just about all 2X odds houses allow 2.5X odds on points of 6&8.
So $10 flat would be allowed to make a $25 odds bet.
Lowers the combined HE even more.

Quote: Nareed

Now, in the case of playing the pass line, since the most likely points to hit are 6 & 8, would it make sense to place 2X odds on this point but to also place the points?

It makes sense to place max odds.
The more money you place on higher HE bets, the more you lose the more bets you make.

If you plan on making just a few lifetime bets, do whatever.
Most Craps players do not make that few of bets, so make the best bets if you want the best chances to come out ahead.

Quote: Nareed

Here's the example: I bet $5 on pass and six come up in the come out roll.
Next I place double odds behind the pass line bet, and place the six for, say, $18.


Thanks!

You would be better off (ev/sd wise) making a $6 pass and taking $15 full odds on the 6. instead of $5 with $10 odds.

Look at it this way using just HE and ev. (you can calculate the ev yourself)
$5 pass HE = -7/495 (1.41%)
$10 pass odds HE = 0%
$18 place 6 HE = -1/66 (1.52%)

Since you already have the most money on the odds, it would seem that that better play, to have the lowest ev/sd and highest sd, would be to increase the flat bet amount and take full 2X odds instead of spreading out more bets onto higher HE bets, like the place bets.

And I think Alan in another post has shown this be true.
Passline bets vs. Passline and Come bets - same bet handle

ed431324

Thanks for all the replies.

Here's the thing, I'm comfortable with a $5 pass line bet, and on 4,5,9 and 10 I won't always bet even 2X odds. So that's fine. but on 6 and 8 I'll bet 2X at least, and sometimes 3X to 5X where allowed (and when there's a hot shooter)

So I thought one way to increase the action on 6&8 is to place them when either is the point or is the come bet point. I could bet a $6 pass line, but I wouldn't go to $10. That's why I loved the 4 Queens when it allowed $3 pass with 5X odds, but I digress...

I'll have to ask how much they allow in odds if I place a $6 line bet.

Doc, I had no idea I could increase a line bet after the point is established. More odds, yes. I've done that a time or two when I forgot to place odds right away.

Thanks again to everyone. I'll post more about it in a few days.

Quote: Nareed

So I thought one way to increase the action on 6&8 is to place them when either is the point or is the come bet point.

It really is the only way if you want more action on that number. As Doc said, it is better than increasing the flat part of the pass line bet just to add more odds.

Quote: Nareed

That's why I loved the 4 Queens when it allowed $3 pass with 5X odds, but I digress...

The El Cortez allows $3 bets with 10X odds most days and weekends I have been there. The other table is $5 min.
Just a short walk across LV Blvd from the 4Qs.

Quote: guido111

The El Cortez allows $3 bets with 10X odds most days and weekends I have been there. The other table is $5 min.
Just a short walk across LV Blvd from the 4Qs.

The one time I went to ElCo, with the WoVCon ][ contingent, the open craps table was set to $5. It is a short wlka, yes, but I still distrust that side of Fremont St.

Quote: Nareed

Thanks for all the replies.

Doc, I had no idea I could increase a line bet after the point is established. More odds, yes. I've done that a time or two when I forgot to place odds right away.

The casino LOVES when you increase your line bet after the come out roll. It now has a higher house edge because you missed your chance to win on the 7/11 and now have only one way left to win.

Quote: winmonkeyspit3

The casino LOVES when you increase your line bet after the come out roll. It now has a higher house edge because you missed your chance to win on the 7/11 and now have only one way left to win.

Well, yes. at that point you're more likely to lose it than before the come out. I suppose they won't let you increase your don't pass bet?

But having established 6 or 8, I would increase the pass to get more in odds. I know it's a loser in the long term, perhaps more so than other bets. I'll just have to ask next time. For a session it may be worth it.

Quote: Nareed

Well, yes. at that point you're more likely to lose it than before the come out. I suppose they won't let you increase your don't pass bet?

But having established 6 or 8, I would increase the pass to get more in odds. I know it's a loser in the long term, perhaps more so than other bets. I'll just have to ask next time. For a session it may be worth it.

You are correct, you can't increase your don't. If you are really feeling the number then go ahead and press your passline bet to get more odds, but it would have the same effect as if you were to make a place bet on the 6 or 8. Think about it this way... Placing a 6 dollar 6/8 pays 7 on the hit. Adding a dollar to your passline and 5 odds on the hit you get even on the dollar and 6 on your 5. Either way you win 7 dollars.

I think that perhaps alot of this is an emotional preference for the Six or Eight because they are more likely to be rolled than any other number other than SEVEN.

Its the same as saying "No Action" when your DontCome wager would otherwise be traveling to the SIX or EIGHT. The emotional response is that a Dont Four is so much "better".

Same thing with increasing and getting higher odds... its an emotional reaction but that come out roll already is gone, so why give up the win on seven/eleven just for some mythical allure of more odds money on the point number.

Quote: winmonkeyspit3

You are correct, you can't increase your don't. If you are really feeling the number then go ahead and press your passline bet to get more odds, but it would have the same effect as if you were to make a place bet on the 6 or 8. Think about it this way... Placing a 6 dollar 6/8 pays 7 on the hit. Adding a dollar to your passline and 5 odds on the hit you get even on the dollar and 6 on your 5. Either way you win 7 dollars.

Thanks.

This is a bit academic, really, as 1) my bankroll is flea-size anyway and 2) I don't intend to take up serious (for me) gambling more often than I already do. what I've decided is that the Wizard's signature goes deeper, ro that it provokes deeper thought at any rate. what's worse, a bad bet or no gambling at all? I'm inclined to say a bad bet is worse.

So for Vegas I should look for $3, $2 and $1 craps tables with high odds, rather than trying to squeeze blood from a 2X stone, so to speak.

Hi, the best reference I can give you is to read John Patricks "Advance Craps". He makes a lot of sense about "the odds/house edge". If your bankroll is high I'd say go for your idea of placing the 6-8 along with the behind the line 2x max odds. If this is the only way you like to play I'd say find another casino that allows 4x 6x 100x whatever odds!! Then you wouldn't need the place on the Passline #. I don't like the Pass line. I choose the Don't with place betting or just simply place betting the inside #'s...someone else can give you the "miniscule odds/house edge" answer.