I've been to MGM today! + What is the best Hi-low index number?

My friend and I drove from San Jose to Las Vegas, 10PM yesterday to 7AM today. My friend was too tired, so he slept in the car at the MGM parking lot. I went to MGM, and searching for the S17 0.28% house edge game.
I arrived at MGM at 7:30AM, then I was walking through the first floor back & forth, but I only found tons of H17 game, and some weird game such as "black switch".
I was very tired, then I found a 25 cents and a 1 cent slot machine. I played 10 dollars, and lost them all in 2 minutes. That's what I expected to lose. I knew slot machine is a suck game, I've never played it before.
On the way back to the main entrance, I was so disappointed, then I gladly found some S17 game near the main entrance!(go into the main entrance then go straight.) Only a few people are playing because it was morning. I watched them playing for a while, and I felt a little bit embarrassed.
The minimum bet was 25 dollars, a bit higher than my tolerance. Then I found a new shoe, it was 70% penetration, 3 people on the table. After 2 rounds of play, the TC went up to +2.. I realized that I have no way to reject this shoe! I sat down, and changed 4 green chips with 100 dollars, I was so f**king nervous & exciting.. I've never seen a rule better than this since I'm from San Jose, all the trashy 21 century blackjack around my apartment.
I played 8 rounds, and got 200 dollars cash in, then I left. I was so happy.. It was much higher than the expect value~
When I was playing, I always worrying if the pit bosses look at me, so I was nervous & willing to leave.
Why were there so many people playing at H17 table? Don't they know that S17 game is better? I'm so confused with those people.

Another question, what's the best BS number & deviation number for S17 0.28% house edge game?
I saw the chart in the Professional Blackjack book by Stanford Wong, and I got another chart by Blackjack Engine on Blackjackinfo.com.
Those 2 charts have a lot of differences... I think the correct way to play should only be single choice, so which one is more accurate?

I'm not willing to play anymore in this trip because I think I haven't mastered the chart. But I'll go to some other casino tomorrow to have a concept of Vegas.
Going to sleep now. Thank you guys a lot for the helped me :)

Can't help you on the numbers but as far as the game is concerned you will get the hang of it.
Make sure you are fully prepared because your edge is so small and any mistakes will be your downfall.
Good Luck.

I don't have a CVCX. I think it can calculate the most accurate number for this rule: 6Deck S17 DAS RSA LS

Quote: WangSanJose

My friend and I drove from San Jose to Las Vegas, 10PM yesterday to 7AM today. My friend was too tired, so he slept in the car at the MGM parking lot. I went to MGM, and searching for the S17 0.28% house edge game.
I arrived at MGM at 7:30AM, then I was walking through the first floor back & forth, but I only found tons of H17 game, and some weird game such as "black switch".
I was very tired, then I found a 25 cents and a 1 cent slot machine. I played 10 dollars, and lost them all in 2 minutes. That's what I expected to lose. I knew slot machine is a suck game, I've never played it before.
On the way back to the main entrance, I was so disappointed, then I gladly found some S17 game near the main entrance!(go into the main entrance then go straight.) Only a few people are playing because it was morning. I watched them playing for a while, and I felt a little bit embarrassed.
The minimum bet was 25 dollars, a bit higher than my tolerance. Then I found a new shoe, it was 70% penetration, 3 people on the table. After 2 rounds of play, the TC went up to +2.. I realized that I have no way to reject this shoe! I sat down, and changed 4 green chips with 100 dollars, I was so f**king nervous & exciting.. I've never seen a rule better than this since I'm from San Jose, all the trashy 21 century blackjack around my apartment.
I played 8 rounds, and got 200 dollars cash in, then I left. I was so happy.. It was much higher than the expect value~
When I was playing, I always worrying if the pit bosses look at me, so I was nervous & willing to leave.
Why were there so many people playing at H17 table? Don't they know that S17 game is better? I'm so confused with those people.

Another question, what's the best BS number & deviation number for S17 0.28% house edge game?
I saw the chart in the Professional Blackjack book by Stanford Wong, and I got another chart by Blackjack Engine on Blackjackinfo.com.
Those 2 charts have a lot of differences... I think the correct way to play should only be single choice, so which one is more accurate?

I'm not willing to play anymore in this trip because I think I haven't mastered the chart. But I'll go to some other casino tomorrow to have a concept of Vegas.
Going to sleep now. Thank you guys a lot for the helped me :)

I'm not familiar with the chart from blackjackinfo.com, but in general Wong's book is the tried and true standard for Hi-Lo, so I would defer to that source. Although it seems likely that the two charts are referring to slightly different rules or a slightly different system.

Congrats on your first card counting experience. I remember feeling that same nervousness, in the beginning you will always be paranoid that the pit is watching you. You'll get over it eventually, but be sure not to get too comfortable...a lot of times the pit is watching you.

Also I feel obliged to mention that you should be careful posting such detailed accounts of your AP exploits. The exact time, casino, pit, dollar amounts etc. would make it very easy to identify if you a casino employee were trolling this website trying to "make" APs. I know it sounds incredulous, but I have heard that it happens. It has not happened to me or anyone I know, but I don't know that many APs so that doesn't count for much.

1BB also warned me about that and I value his opinion.

I just wear a shirt that says "I <3 Casino Employee's"
Usually works...

Quote: WangSanJose

Why were there so many people playing at H17 table? Don't they know that S17 game is better? I'm so confused with those people.

There are a few reasons that people will play H17 over S17:

1) (Most obvious) The minimums are considerably lower. MGM will have $10 minimums pretty much all the time except peak times and fight nights. As you pointed out, the lowest is $25 in that particular pit (I know which area you are talking about, as it's also the pit with Tiles).

2) For people playing over $25 a hand anyways, some people don't know the s17 pits are there. They are pretty out in the open, but tucked away, so some people don't research; they just assume and find the closest table.

3) Some people have "lucky tables" and nothing you can say will convince them otherwise.

4) There's a small faction of people who LIKE when the dealer hits soft 17. 6 SHOULD be a bust card, but on a S17 table, it isn't 1/13th of the time. I've known many a player who hate that SO MUCH, they are willing to give the house a .20% edge just for the chance that they bust (even though, more often than not they make a much stronger hand).

To AcesAndEights:

That are some pretty good ideas, I'll remember that.
I felt like in the S17 area, pit bosses are watching the table more carefully than those H17 areas.

I went to some other casinos today. Mirage has only one 6 deck 28% house edge game with 25 minimum.
And I didn't found any other 6 deck game that is better than MGM's.
When will MGM has $15 minimum S17 game like Blackjack Survey mentioned?

I think they are under the same rule? What other things will effect the basic strategy expect decks, S17 or H17, DAS, LS?

For those S17, 28% house edge rules in Vegas, should I split 6&6 against 2?

In Wong's book Professional Blackjack, on page 26, it says to hit.
According to Wizard & blackjackinfo, they say to split.

Wizardofodds:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/strategy/calculator/
Decks: 4 or more
Soft 17: Dealer Stands
Double After Split: Allowed
Surrender: Not Allowed
Dealer Peak: Dealer peaks for blackjack

Blackjackinfo:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=6+decks&soft17=s17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=ls&peek=yes

Furthermore, I searched a lot of charts on the internet under this rule, every chart says to split. Was Wong's book wrong?

I don't think the book was wrong. Most probably, you just misunderstood. Perhaps, it was talking about some particular situation, most probably, TC < -1. The correct strategy at -1 or higher counts is to split.

deleted

Yea, I saw that, but I don't know how to play 2D :(

I think it is split also. But in the book is to hit? Any one has the book? It's on page 26.

I recently played that game at the MGM Grand spreading 1-16 and never got a look from the pit. I don't know what their tolerance is but at the end of the week I jumped it to 1-20 and still nothing. They had a few $10 minimums on weekdays. When Mandalay Bay was S17 I got light heat for playing much less.

A pair of 6s vs a 2 is a losing hand no matter how you play it. Stand:lose 65%, hit:lose 60%, split:lose 58%. These numbers are in my head. Sorry I can't direct you to a site.

Quote: 1BB

I recently played that game at the MGM Grand spreading 1-16 and never got a look from the pit. I don't know what their tolerance is but at the end of the week I jumped it to 1-20 and still nothing. They had a few $10 minimums on weekdays. When Mandalay Bay was S17 I got light heat for playing much less.

A pair of 6s vs a 2 is a losing hand no matter how you play it. Stand:lose 65%, hit:lose 60%, split:lose 58%. These numbers are in my head. Sorry I can't direct you to a site.

That is quite a spread. That can't be normal behavior on their part can it?

Quote: 1BB

I recently played that game at the MGM Grand spreading 1-16

Why would you do that?

Quote: only1choice

That is quite a spread. That can't be normal behavior on their part can it?

I don't think they sweat light green. My base bet was $25 and there were usually players betting more. I also got away with wonging out, spreading to 2 hands and pocketing chips.

I've beaten that game with half that spread but was only in town for a little over a week and I felt I had nothing to lose. Every place is different.

Hope it was a profitable week. Till next time.

Quote: 1BB

I recently played that game at the MGM Grand spreading 1-16 and never got a look from the pit. I don't know what their tolerance is but at the end of the week I jumped it to 1-20 and still nothing. They had a few $10 minimums on weekdays. When Mandalay Bay was S17 I got light heat for playing much less.

A pair of 6s vs a 2 is a losing hand no matter how you play it. Stand:lose 65%, hit:lose 60%, split:lose 58%. These numbers are in my head. Sorry I can't direct you to a site.

Yes, I think a pair of 6s vs a 2 should split (basic strategy), but in the book, it says to hit. I don't know why.
Anyway, I always split.

Today I went to ** casino, I jumped my bet from 5 to 35 suddenly when he count is good. Then the dealer said "check game" loudly! A pit boss came to the table and watching me. I got a pair of *s against dealers 5, I split, then win both hands. I was feeling heat... Then I gave ** dollar tip to the dealer, and left.
This is the second time I play in Vegas, and I won a little bit again. So happy~ But the heat made me feel really nervous. I love Vegas.

10 minimum with that S17, 28% house edge game? WOW!
Today I went to see the UFC show in MGM, I saw the minimum bet is still $25.

Quote: WangSanJose

Today I went to ** casino, I jumped my bet from 5 to 35 suddenly when he count is good. Then the dealer said "check game" loudly! A pit boss came to the table and watching me. I got a pair of *s against dealers 5, I split, then win both hands. I was feeling heat... Then I gave ** dollar tip to the dealer, and left.
This is the second time I play in Vegas, and I won a little bit again. So happy~ But the heat made me feel really nervous. I love Vegas.

They weren't watching you, per se. They were watching to see if you had an accomplice for $200 a hand who is following your lead. No major casino is going to watch a 1-7 spread at $5 minimum for the $35. They are checking the game to make sure that nobody hops in and starts betting big. They could implement a no mid-shoe or cap a max bet or flat bet. They may also be getting a picture to keep an eye on you in the future. But they can go back and watch tape, so nothing you can do about it.

It could also be a dealer who is on the verge of losing his job and trying to prove his worth. But 5-35 is not going to worry ANY casino on the strip.

BTW, you keep saying a 28% house edge game. I think your terminology is wrong, as no person in their right mind would play a game with a 28% house edge. I don't even know what you're referring to, so I can't help you with the correct term.

Quote: Tiltpoul

BTW, you keep saying a 28% house edge game. I think your terminology is wrong, as no person in their right mind would play a game with a 28% house edge. I don't even know what you're referring to, so I can't help you with the correct term.

I think he means 0.28% (based on the first post of this thread).

Quote: JB

I think he means 0.28% (based on the first post of this thread).

I realized that as soon as I re-read his post. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Quote: 1BB

A pair of 6s vs a 2 is a losing hand no matter how you play it. Stand:lose 65%, hit:lose 60%, split:lose 58%. These numbers are in my head. Sorry I can't direct you to a site.

It's not that bad, but the difference between split and stand is way more dramatic. Stand is -25%, split is -19%.
But. When double after split is not allowed, the expectation of split becomes about -27%, so the correct action is to hit in that situation. Perhaps, that's what the book refers to?

The 28% house edge is referring to the S17 game in MGM, according to the blackjack survey:
https://wizardofvegas.com/guides/blackjack-survey/?sort=dr&dir=asc

The casino I went to is at downtown, everybody were betting 5-20 dollars.
My friend just told me that the dealer said "check game" because they were calling the floor come here to check if the dealer will make mistakes with big amount. (comparing to other people on the table, 35 was a big bet.) My friend also told me don't worry about that.

Thank you for the advice.

Wang: the "best" index number is the one that gives you the best additional gain, which is the insurance index. 16 v T is the next most important one. Don Schlesinger's "Illustrious 18" and "Fab 4" indices give you the 22 most valuable indices in a game with late surrender, but it's worthwhile to learn as many as possible if you intend to become a skilled counter. Some of the indices are different between S17 and H17 games (like 12 v 3), so you'll need to learn which indices have variations. H17 games will often provide you with a better overall opportunity than S17 games since they're more likely to feature LS, which is more valuable to a counter than S17.

And you're worrying too much about heat—it's the floorperson's job to watch the games and the players. At a grind joint, the dealer may call out "cheques play" (not "check game"), which indicates that higher-denomination cheques are being wagered. This usually doesn't happen until you play $100+, but if you're at the El Cortez, you'll hear it an awful lot. It's just procedure, and you shouldn't freak out the second someone comes to watch your game. They probably don't even know the correct BS for splitting, much less play deviations, so relax.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Wang: the "best" index number is the one that gives you the best additional gain, which is the insurance index. 16 v T is the next most important one. Don Schlesinger's "Illustrious 18" and "Fab 4" indices give you the 22 most valuable indices in a game with late surrender, but it's worthwhile to learn as many as possible if you intend to become a skilled counter. Some of the indices are different between S17 and H17 games (like 12 v 3), so you'll need to learn which indices have variations. H17 games will often provide you with a better overall opportunity than S17 games since they're more likely to feature LS, which is more valuable to a counter than S17.

And you're worrying too much about heat—it's the floorperson's job to watch the games and the players. At a grind joint, the dealer may call out "cheques play" (not "check game"), which indicates that higher-denomination cheques are being wagered. This usually doesn't happen until you play $100+, but if you're at the El Cortez, you'll hear it an awful lot. It's just procedure, and you shouldn't freak out the second someone comes to watch your game. They probably don't even know the correct BS for splitting, much less play deviations, so relax.

That's very helpful! I feel a little confused right here, what's the difference between floor person & pit boss?
Are single deck & double deck games draw more heats than 6 deck & 8 deck games? I used a bigger spread in MGM's S17 6 deck game, and felt nothing.
Therefore, I'm considering that if I want to play longer, I should play 6 deck rather than single & double deck.

BTW, I've came back to my home, and I'll go to Vegas soon again. I earned a lot in another small casino again by playing 2 decks. I used a 1-4 spread, and I got no heat. My winning amount covered my trip cost, so happy!
Thank you guys who helped me in this great forum.

A pit boss is the floorperson's supervisor. There is usually one pit boss per pit and several floorpersons working under them. Often, the pit boss will be the one wearing a different-colored jacket. The floorperson is usually the person who takes your player's card, checks on the rack, and watches the game; the pit boss generally stays in the center of the pit, assisting when needed. A floorperson watching your game is not necessarily heat, by the way. And a 1-4 spread is too weak to beat double-deck anyway, so heat should not be too much of an issue. 6-deck games generally have less heat than DD or SD. Play whichever games you want, but keep your sessions short and play aggressively. That's the only way for a new counter to make any money, in my opinion.