Questions about being backed off.

Over the weekend I was playing and staying at Mandalay. After about 2 1/2 hours, I was told that they no longer wanted my blackjack action, but I could play craps and poker. They caught me a bit off guard, I had just pressed in to a strong count (but lost quite a bit). They were nice enough, I was never threatened, but I had a few questions for those who've experienced this before.

1. Is this forever? Could I go back there in a few years and play again?
2. Does this hold for other MGM properties? Do they share this info through my player's card? I didn't want to risk it, so I played at Wynn and the Palms after being backed off.
3. They never read me any trespass notice, so I'm assuming I can still go in to their properties. Correct? I still have a ton of points I'd like to use. I'm thinking that might be pushing it.

Anyone experience this before? This put a damper on my weekend, but I'm more concerned about my future. Thanks.

Well, since they welcome you at craps and poker, obviously, you're still welcome in the casino, and therefore at their sister properties. Just not at the BJ table. Whether the BJ ban is just there or at all their properties is something you need to ask them.

I see no reason to not ask them what the details are. As long as you don't have an attitude, they should give you straight-forward answers.

Mind if I ask for more details? I mean, when they asked you to stop playing BJ, did you argue or even ask why? Or did you simply admit that you were counting?

I gotta think that coming right out and admitting it, probably goes a long way towards not getting barred completely. And that means that you should still be able to get your comp rewards - although I wouldn't be surprised if they did a little research and cancelled all your BJ credit.

When they asked me to take my next bet back, I asked why. They said that I've been playing very well and I seemed to have "an advantage". Their term. I was polite to them, as they were to me, so when I asked further, they said they noticed I had been betting big in to strong "counts" and that I left during bad counts. Again, their word. I did acknowledge that of course I had noticed no tens had come up in this particular instance. In the DD game I had been playing, the first two hands out were a six-card 19 for me and a 5 card 20 for them, followed by something like a 5 card 18 for me and a 5 card 20 for them. The boss then said I was welcome at the other games, but not BJ any more. I expressed disappointment and feigned confusion, but gave them no hassles. I was just sort of bummed out, went back to my room with my buddies, and then tried to figure out what it meant for the future.

They did let us keep our UFC seats that our host had provided when we checked in. I just want to be very careful about not really getting banned by playing at any more of their properties.

Good point on just asking. I'll make contact with my host and find out. Sometimes the simple answers are just too obvious. Thanks.

Sorry you got backed off. MGM's computers are probably linked so your actions at the BJ table there are probably linked at the other casinos.

What's more interesting is that they knew you were counting and *they* knew the count. So perhaps Mandalay has some technology that tracks bets versus counts and correlates the two to find "advantage players".

I'm curious... do you mind saying how much you were betting at the time? What spread were you using?

While I certainly believe your account of events, this is not the typical approach of most MGMMirage properties. I've only witnessed two "back offs" in twenty years and one was at Mandalay Bay the other Mirage (MB back-off may have been before the sale to MGM I don't remember). Both times they "flat betted" the player: Giving them the option to continue playing at a flat amount. Both times they were very polite about it. So you would leave the table entirely when the count was bad and come back after the next shuffle? IMHO you can't do this too often if you want to be a "rated" player...especially at the double-deck games. "Wonging" is more effective in the higher house edge shoe games where you can hop in and out (and don't give them your Players Club card for goodness sakes). I think you'll be fine at their other props as long as you're cool about it.

Quote: lucky13

Over the weekend I was playing and staying at Mandalay. After about 2 1/2 hours, I was told that they no longer wanted my blackjack action, but I could play craps and poker. They caught me a bit off guard, I had just pressed in to a strong count (but lost quite a bit). They were nice enough, I was never threatened, but I had a few questions for those who've experienced this before.

1. Is this forever? Could I go back there in a few years and play again?
2. Does this hold for other MGM properties? Do they share this info through my player's card? I didn't want to risk it, so I played at Wynn and the Palms after being backed off.
3. They never read me any trespass notice, so I'm assuming I can still go in to their properties. Correct? I still have a ton of points I'd like to use. I'm thinking that might be pushing it.

Anyone experience this before? This put a damper on my weekend, but I'm more concerned about my future. Thanks.

1. They didn't read the Trespass Act so I don't think it would be "forever." That being said, I'd wait at least a year and maybe a few before I went back. Long enough that whoever backed you off should be working somewhere else. I read once where a guy was backed off a year and went back the day after and they tossed him again within 20 minutes. If you go back say 21 years later play dumb but don't act smart. Say, "I thought that was just for then."

2. They didn't say it held for other places so I'd play but with caution. We live in a society where "what isn't prohibited is permitted" for the most part so let them tell you. I'd not give my players card if I was playing aggressively, though.

3. I wouldn't worry, they came right out and said you were backed off and not barred in so many words. Cash them points in.


Now a side question I have. When you do get "barred" does that mean you cannot play in the casino; cannot enter the casino but can go into one of the restaurants to get one of the sandwiches you like; or can you be arrested for putting so much as your baby toe on the edge of the parking lot?

Quote: AZDuffman

Now a side question I have. When you do get "barred" does that mean you cannot play in the casino; cannot enter the casino but can go into one of the restaurants to get one of the sandwiches you like; or can you be arrested for putting so much as your baby toe on the edge of the parking lot?

In the UK when barred from a particular casino or casino group your business of any kind is no long welcome.

I would assume that with the mega resorts it would be difficult to stop you from entering stores however you would not be welcome when barred on the gaming floor. Set foot into any gaming area and you would be risking a visit from security.

I think....

Some of you need to re-read the original post.


He was backed off of BJ only. And in the same breath, was told we was welcome at craps and poker.

So OBVIOUSLY, he CAN go into the stores, restaurant and even on the casino floor.

I was replying to AZDuffmans question in the post above mine, but forgot to stick the quote in. Ill rectify that.

He was asking about barring.

Quote: lucky13

I had just pressed in to a strong count (but lost quite a bit)...

They had someone in surveillance count the deck from the tape and see how your betting varied (not your wins or losses). So yes, you may have just had a few losses despite a strong count in your favor, but they noted your betting action and basically told you that their blackjack games are for people who are less skillful than you are. I'd have just switched to craps or baccarat for awhile after bemusedly stating "you realize I've been losing", but its good you didn't make a big deal about it.
So far its just that particular casino though I'm sure they've noted something next to your player card number or soon will. I'd go elsewhere for awhile. Just not to have any further confrontations.
You have not been barred from anything but blackjack. So just drift away from their sight and their minds for awhile. Go to a totally different computer system which means a totally different casino ownership... and stay off their radar screens for awhile.

They don't want good players.

Quote: lucky13

1. Is this forever? Could I go back there in a few years and play again?

Yes. You can still go back and play blackjack, but if they remember you, they will probably trespass you from the property. If you wait at least six months, I think they will forgot about it, and you can safely play again. Feel free to play anything else immediately.

Quote: lucky13

2. Does this hold for other MGM properties? Do they share this info through my player's card? I didn't want to risk it, so I played at Wynn and the Palms after being backed off.

From a story I heard, I think the Mandalay will fax over a surveilance photo of you to the other MGM properties. I think the "back off" applies to the Mandalay only, but I think they may be expecting you at the other properties. I'd hold off on all of the others for at least three months.

Quote: lucky13

3. They never read me any trespass notice, so I'm assuming I can still go in to their properties. Correct? I still have a ton of points I'd like to use. I'm thinking that might be pushing it.

Feel free to go to any property, including the Mandalay, as long as you don't play blackjack. I'm quite sure your points are still good.

Quote: jeremykay

I'm curious... do you mind saying how much you were betting at the time? What spread were you using?

I'd like to know this as well. Also were you using any kind of cover or raising and lowering bets strictly with the count?

These S17 DD games are often watched intensely both by the pit and surveillance. You can get away with a lot less at these games than shoe games.

As FleaStiff said they likely replayed the tape and checked the counts manually and your corresponding bets.

Quote: Croupier

I was replying to AZDuffmans question in the post above mine, but forgot to stick the quote in. Ill rectify that.

He was asking about barring.

I saw the quote, I was implying he should wait before going back for BJ only. Though except for my player points I'd go elsewhere for everything I could. Casinos don't want part of my business I'll take it all elsewhere.

Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to answering my questions. As for your questions:

I play KO strategy, spread $100-$1000, although I never got higher than $800 during this sitting (pre-backing off). The pit was quiet, and there were guys playing much higher stakes than I was. For instance, there was one guy spreading $2-5k and playing two hands at the table next to me. There was another guy at another table with about $50k in front of him, playing multiple hands at what seemed to be $500-$2000.

As for cover, I did what I've been doing for years. Complain and "chase" losses progressively into good decks, and make sure everyone knew I was "pressing" wins into good decks. At one point, I asked for another marker, and the dealer told me not to press when losing (tying to help me out), but it was in to a real good deck.

As for what I think my mistakes were:
1. Sitting too long in one pit. (The problem with playing where you are staying comped.)
2. Several times near the end of good shoes, I played multiple hands with good counts, trying to get more of the good cards to be played before the shuffle.
3. Wonged out twice in to real bad decks.
4. Took insurance twice.

As to what I subsequently found out, and responses to everyone's suggestions.
- My points are still on my card. I checked online.
- I plan to take a year or so off from MGM properties. Not a problem for me, as I'm a ~4x a year Vegas guy. My next trip isn't until May. That's when I plan to go shopping with points, and play some craps there.
- I didn't argue, but I did question as to why. I was never told I could flat bet, but I was told I could play craps and poker.

All in all, while it was a disheartening experience, I've calmed down and realized it doesn't necessarily make me a dinosaur.

Thanks again for the queries, the suggestions and feeling of community.

I'd find another casino to play at.

On a related note...here in Indiana there is a court case going on right now to decide if casinos in the state will be allow to ban card counters from playing. It was just argued in front of the Indiana Supreme court this week. A player back in 06 was kicked out of the Grand Vic for counting, and sued the casino. Interestingly, the Chief Justice as well as another justice hearing the oral arguments seemed to be backing the player, so it'll be interesting to see how that plays out:

Here is a summary.

I have two thoughts on this.

If the casinos win, they'll be able to continue to offer games that are more advantageous overall to the non counter, and a game that would be amenable to the non-greedy counter.

The courts will likely side with the counter. I would agree to this ruling but I think the game and/or procedures in all of Indiana will be changed so that counters will have less of a detrimental effect. This means less small deck games, shallower penetrations, and higher minimums, ruining the game for everyone.

I think the player should have just kept quiet and took his skill elsewhere.

Quote: boymimbo

I have two thoughts on this.

If the casinos win, they'll be able to continue to offer games that are more advantageous overall to the non counter, and a game that would be amenable to the non-greedy counter.

The courts will likely side with the counter. I would agree to this ruling but I think the game and/or procedures in all of Indiana will be changed so that counters will have less of a detrimental effect. This means less small deck games, shallower penetrations, and higher minimums, ruining the game for everyone.

I think the player should have just kept quiet and took his skill elsewhere.

That was my thought exactly. Since I'm not a counter, the player winning most likely will mean worst BJ games available to me. Being allowed in won't do this counter any good if all they offer is 2.0%+ HA games.