Decrease in /House Edge for No Bust Blackjack Varitation?

No bust black jack rule variation:
If both the player and dealer bust and the player has a lower total then the bet is a push.
If both the player and dealer bust and the player's total is higher or equal to the dealer's total then the player shall lose.

I'd like to know the decrease in the house edge for the above rule.

Also any change in basic strategy for this rule?

I didn't get a response to this post but I now have another question:

At Normandie Casino in Gardena. CA, they have two BJ tables:
1) First one pays 3:2 black jack but surrender only allowed on first two cards
2) Second one pays 6:5 black jack but they have no-bust BJ rule and surrender anytime

Which one would you play?

Quote: paisiello

No bust black jack rule variation:
If both the player and dealer bust and the player has a lower total then the bet is a push.
If both the player and dealer bust and the player's total is higher or equal to the dealer's total then the player shall lose.

I'd like to know the decrease in the house edge for the above rule.

Also any change in basic strategy for this rule?

Hi paisiello,

Is this what you are looking for?
No Bust 21:

Quote: paisiello

No bust black jack rule variation:
If both the player and dealer bust and the player has a lower total then the bet is a push.
If both the player and dealer bust and the player's total is higher or equal to the dealer's total then the player shall lose.

I'd like to know the decrease in the house edge for the above rule.

Also any change in basic strategy for this rule?

??? Do U mean to say:

If both the player and dealer bust and the player has a lower total then the bet is a LOSS.
If both the player and dealer bust and the player's total is higher or equal to the dealer's total then the player shall PUSH.

Quote: RoyalBJ

??? Do U mean to say:

If both the player and dealer bust and the player has a lower total then the bet is a LOSS.
If both the player and dealer bust and the player's total is higher or equal to the dealer's total then the player shall PUSH.

Rules 3. If both the player and dealer bust, and the player is closer to 21 the bet shall push. If the dealer is closer or equal the bet shall lose.

Playing rules:

1. The rules are the same as conventional blackjack except as noted below.
2. Six 54-card decks are used. Each deck contains two jokers.
3. If both the player and dealer bust, and the player is closer to 21 the bet shall push. If the dealer is closer or equal the bet shall lose.
4. Two jokers are a "natural", which is the highest possible hand. A player winning natural shall pay 2 to 1. A natural tie is a push.
5. Any hand (player or dealer) with one joker is automatically 21 points.
6. An ace and a 10 is 21 points, equal to any other 21-point hand.
7. If the dealer's up card is a joker the player must stand.
8. The dealer will never peek at his hole card. If the dealer's hole card is a joker double down and split bets still have action.
9. The dealer shall hit a soft 17.
10. Player may double down on any initial two-card hand.
11. Double after split is allowed.
12. The player may surrender any two-card hand, except if the dealer has a joker up.
13. Player may not resplit or draw to split aces.

Thanks Mr. CasinoGames. That's close to but not exactly what I was looking for since the only two rules are the ones I listed above. There are no jokers, etc. etc.

Now which table at the Normandie would you play at ?

Quote: paisiello

Thanks Mr. CasinoGames. That's close to but not exactly what I was looking for since the only two rules are the ones I listed above. There are no jokers, etc. etc.

Now which table at the Normandie would you play at ?

The 3/2 Blackjack game appears to be much better value.

Quote: paisiello

Thanks Mr. CasinoGames. That's close to but not exactly what I was looking for since the only two rules are the ones I listed above. There are no jokers, etc. etc.

Now which table at the Normandie would you play at ?

I will go for:
1) First one pays 3:2 black jack but surrender only allowed on first two cards

Quote: RoyalBJ

??? Do U mean to say:

If both the player and dealer bust and the player has a lower total then the bet is a LOSS.
If both the player and dealer bust and the player's total is higher or equal to the dealer's total then the player shall PUSH.

The rule is correct as originally stated except that it only applies to when the player has a three card bust.

Quote: paisiello

No bust black jack rule variation:
If both the player and dealer bust and the player has a lower total then the bet is a push.
If both the player and dealer bust and the player's total is higher or equal to the dealer's total then the player shall lose.

I'd like to know the decrease in the house edge for the above rule.

Also any change in basic strategy for this rule?

If this special rule were added to a regular S17 blackjack game, the house edge should decrease by about 0.019. So, for example if the original edge was 0.5%, the player would then have a 1.4% advantage. (I found the 0.019 figure using an infinite-deck model.)

For the S17 game, the new basic strategy would have these differences from the regular strategy: hit 12 and 13 vs 2-6, split 9's vs 7, don't split 6's vs 2, split 2's and 3's vs 8, and the only surrender would be 16 vs 10.

Thanks very much for the reply. What software are you using for this?

What about H17 games?

Quote: paisiello

Thanks very much for the reply. What software are you using for this?

What about H17 games?

I'm using an infinite-deck model in Excel. (On this site, the Wizard has posted his Excel infinite-deck model, which you can modify or redo for various rule changes.)

For an H17 game, I find that the special rule decreases the house edge by about 0.018. Here are the strategy differences between the new game and regular H17: hit 12-13 vs 2-5 and hit 12 vs 6, split 2's and 3's vs 8, split 9's vs A and 7, don't split 6's vs 2, don't double 11 vs A, and only surrender 16 vs 10 and 16-17 vs A.

I looked around the site but couldn't find it. Any chance you could possibly send me a link for the location of this excel file?

Thanks in advance.

Quote: paisiello

I looked around the site but couldn't find it. Any chance you could possibly send me a link for the location of this excel file?

Thanks in advance.

Here is a link to the Wizard's post about his infinite-deck blackjack Excel workbook.

Quote: paisiello

At Normandie Casino in Gardena. CA, they have two BJ tables:
1) First one pays 3:2 black jack but surrender only allowed on first two cards
2) Second one pays 6:5 black jack but they have no-bust BJ rule and surrender anytime
Which one would you play?

The 3:2 Blackjack table of course. There is no question whatsoever that any and all variations of the rules, be they frequently encountered rule variations or some of these newer rule variations that are less frequently encountered, are instituted by the casinos so as to debase Real 3:2 Blackjack in order to milk more out of the table than they otherwise would get.

So the good old 3:2 Blackjack is the one to play irrespective of whether you are able to perform the math to figure out exactly by how much its a better play.

Quote: paisiello

At Normandie Casino in Gardena. CA, they have two BJ tables:
1) First one pays 3:2 black jack but surrender only allowed on first two cards
2) Second one pays 6:5 black jack but they have no-bust BJ rule and surrender anytime

Which one would you play?

I would play the 6:5 game.

I believe that adding your no bust rule to a H17 game decreases the house edge by 0.018. The probability of getting blackjack in a 6-deck game is about 1/21, so changing a 6-deck game from 3:2 to 6:5 would increase the house edge by (1.5-1.2)/21 or about 0.014. So the 6:5 game is better than the 3:2 game by at least 0.004. And the surrender anytime rule would further reduce the house edge for the 6:5 game.

Quote: ChesterDog

Here is a link to the Wizard's post about his infinite-deck blackjack Excel workbook.

Thanks very much for the link. Looking at the file I notice some differences from the Wizard's calculations:

For 8 deck, H17, DAS, resplit max. 4 times, dealer peeks for BJ, surrender allowed, 3:2 blackjack
1) soft 13 vs. 5 shows to hit instead of basic strategy recommendation of doubling
2) expected return = -0.627% while the Wizard's edge calculator shows -0.553%

I assume these differences are due to the infinite deck assumption?

I took the Wizard's spreadsheet and made some modifications to it to give me an estimate of the change in house edge for the No Bust rule:

1) Modfied worksheet "dealer" to include 22 thru 26 probabilities and copied over the formulas following the same pattern.

2) I estimated that the probability of a bust between 22 thru 25 is 21.26% and the probability that it is a 3 card bust for the player given that there is a bust is as follows:
22: 12.85%
23: 10.71%
24: 8.57%
25: 6.85%
Or roughly 39% of all player busts between 22 and 25 will be 3 card busts.

3) Modified worksheet "stand" by replacing the -1 expected returns for 22 thru 25 with formulas for a return greater than -1 if the player's hand is lower than the dealer's and is a 3 card bust e.g.: for 22 vs. 2 the cell formula is:
= - SUM(dealer!B8:B$11) * (1 - 11.60%) * (21.26%) - SUM(dealer!B$2:B7)

The above modifications gave me a house edge difference of +1.39%. This is quite different than ChesterDog's +1.8% stated above. I get similar Basic Strategy changes as ChesterDog's. I assume the difference would be attributed to my estimates in item 2) above.

However, I think both values may still be too high. Mainly because I am not confident of the changes I made being correct but also because of this reference that I came across:
No-Bust BJ California

The rules stated on the page are the same except the one about doubling any time. This estimate gives a house edge change of +1.22% for the 3 card no bust rule. Basic Strategy changes are similar to ChesterDog's and mine.

Could the inifinite deck assumption be throwing off the results? What else is amiss?