Is Counting Cheating?

Quote: RaleighCraps

Okay, now I don't have any arguments with the way you have worded it in the above FACTS section. Since I don't have enough knowledge to contest if the FACTS are true or not, I can accept your words as an insider.

I don't like the armed robbery analogy because armed robbery is a criminal act, and is in fact illegal EVERYWHERE.

My point is that once an action is considered "out of bounds" by the casino's house rules ALONE, it is simply out of bounds - without regard to the Metropolitan police's view of it. In this regard, card counting, armed robbery, stealing another player's chips, molesting a cocktail waitress, etc. are ALL out of bounds within the casino itself. The fact that it is - or is not - illegal by some police precinct is irrelevant. Once it is outside of the casino's doors, it may or may not then be an additional a police matter.

Quote: RalieghCraps

It goes way beyond cheating, and I agree, is utterly stupid. So I agree with what you are saying, but it has no relation to counting cards, since counting cards is not ILLEGAL.

Again, My point is that once an action is considered "out of bounds" by the casino's house rules ALONE, it is simply out of bounds - illegal or legal what whatever the police captain thinks is irrelevant. IT IS WHAT THE PIT BOSS OR SHIFT MANAGER THINKS AND ALLOWS AT THE TABLE GAMES' PIT that renders something in play or out-of-bounds! Sheesh, can we make this distinction.

Quote: RalieghCraps

I count cards all the time in our hearts games at home, and no one calls me a criminal or accuses me of cheating.

Of course not. You can do what you want at home games, no pit boss there...

Quote: RalieghtCraps

The casino does consider it cheating when playing BJ, and that is fine as the casino has the right to define cheating as they see fit for their house games.
Your last couple of posts give me a thought that perhaps you are posting your strong stance on this topic as a way to dissuade new, wannabe counters. I detect you are trying to tell them it is not worth the time, because the casino will catch unto them before they can make any money at it, and their casino life will be hell because they choose that path. (Along the way, they inadvertently make your life hell too, when it takes place while you are on shift). If that is your motive, I certainly would not say you were wrong.
However, I suspect we are now in the topic from other threads about trying to educate people while playing a game. 99% of the time it just doesn't work. I feel it is the same with this topic. New people coming here for counting tips are not going to be dissuaded from their journey, by reading your posts. It may enlighten them, but it won't stop them.

They can learn to count cards, fine.
But if you seriously try to use it in real casino life, you will be backed off and told it is out of bounds. People may come to find:
1. Card Counting is boring, it makes gambling work instead of fun.
2. It gets me into trouble with the casinos, - I place I'd like to be allowed to visit.
3. I really can't make money at it.

As of this point in time in the gaming industry or in serious gambling life, card counting as a truly viable casino-based practice is extremely suspect.
The facts of gambling life is that it does not matter how we vote here or what we think.
You can take a vote in a prision as to what everyone thinks of their guilt or innocence and then present it to the Warden.
In the casino pit, it is what the pit boss calls on an issue that counts, and his decision is what sticks.

Quote: Paigowdan

Again, My point is that once an action is considered "out of bounds" by the casino's house rules ALONE, it is simply out of bounds - illegal or legal what whatever the police captain thinks is irrelevant. IT IS WHAT THE PIT BOSS OR SHIFT MANAGER THINKS AND ALLOWS AT THE TABLE GAMES' PIT that renders something in play or out-of-bounds! Sheesh, can we make this distinction.

Not at all. Armed robbery is illegal, and whether the pit boss allows it or not is irrelevant. As is sexual molestation. Again, doesn't matter what the pit boss's opinion of the matter is or not. His word is NOT above the law of the land.

Card counting, it appears is ONLY definable by the pit boss and in matters of the running of the game, sure, his word is law at that table at that time.

This does not make it cheating to make a decision based on the history of the game played. It's also inconsistent with allowing a player to make a decision based on the previous numbers spinned on roulette, or the decision based on the previous win/loss of a hand baccarat, or holding a certain pattern in video poker.

But sure, the casino can run it's games however it likes. It's employees can call card counters cheaters if they desire. Go ahead. It's appears to me to be a less than useful position to hold onto.

I'll continue to count in my own small way, as I find it adds to my enjoyment of the game. Crazy, eh? It actually makes it more enjoyable, not like work at all, and makes it worth hitting up the casino for a little fun (and sure, I'm never going to make a living at it, and the casino can keep it's lights on for a few minutes with my donation).

I don't care if one casino employee thinks it's cheating to use my brain. I don't care if the pit boss thinks it's against his hidden house rules. Until the point he asks me to stop playing, then I'll cash out and head elsewhere. There's plenty of casinos in town, and I'm a tourist.

And that's all I have to say about that.

I understand Dan's position. I hope he at least understands mine.

I'm glad that this is finally settled and we all agree that counting is not cheating, nor is it morally objectionable, even for a priest.

On the other hand, molestation is a crime, armed robbery is a crime, tampering with a slot machine is a crime, and using the neighbor's free internet is questionable (both legally and morally).

Many thanks Cess!

Quote: thecesspit

Quote: Paigowdan

Again, My point is that once an action is considered "out of bounds" by the casino's house rules ALONE, it is simply out of bounds - illegal or legal what whatever the police captain thinks is irrelevant. IT IS WHAT THE PIT BOSS OR SHIFT MANAGER THINKS AND ALLOWS AT THE TABLE GAMES' PIT that renders something in play or out-of-bounds! Sheesh, can we make this distinction.

Not at all. Armed robbery is illegal, and whether the pit boss allows it or not is irrelevant. As is sexual molestation. Again, doesn't matter what the pit boss's opinion of the matter is or not. His word is NOT above the law of the land.

Yes - but this pit boss' call is the law of the table game's pit. This is different, and is what is VERY frequently missed by so many "civilians."

Quote: thecesspit

Card counting, it appears is ONLY definable by the pit boss and in matters of the running of the game, sure, his word is law at that table at that time.

This does not make it cheating to make a decision based on the history of the game played.

The casino house, - the pit boss, - defines what is cheating or "against the house rules."

Quote: thecesspit

It's also inconsistent with allowing a player to make a decision based on the previous numbers spinned on roulette, or the decision based on the previous win/loss of a hand baccarat, or holding a certain pattern in video poker.

Poor analogy - Each new hand is Roulette and VP are "brand new random trials." So What came before on the last hand is immaterial to the next hand or spin.
But a Blackjack shoe has a static composition between shuffles, so earlier hands of the shoe reveal the nature of the hands remaining in the shoe.
As for Baccarat, the 10s are zeroes, not 10s, and so is essentially an uncountable game in spite of a static shoe. Unless Ed Thorpe #2 comes along for Baccarat!

Quote: thecesspit

But sure, the casino can run it's games however it likes. It's employees can call card counters cheaters if they desire. Go ahead. It's appears to me to be a less than useful position to hold onto.

It appears to you this way as a gambler, and ideally as a gambler, a casino should be a "free personal bank" if possible. Casino managers have to do what's in the casinos best interest, and in the equation of reasonable "risk and reward" counting is simply out as a game option, - disallowed and without apology. Now if someone wants to post: "Risk and reward??!! - in who's opinion!" - let it be known right now that it is in the CASINO's opinion as to what is offerable as a game option, and what is not.
There was a time when a card counter could do damage to a casino pit operations as a thread; not anymore, those days are essentially gone, and are not coming back. It really does not matter how casino operators view or call card counters, be it "cheats," or this or that, or how a card counting proponent feels about "the status" of counters in the casino operator's eyes. For card counting to be approved as a bona fide play technique, it matters if a casino operator okays it and offers it, not if a card counter "wants it to be that way," and "I feel that it is wrong..yada, yada, yada." Personally, I feel it is wrong that four-star restuarants, top-flight nightclubs, and first-class air travel are not free as a American citizen's birthright, but neither I am outraged that fees, ground rules, and limits are imposed by these businesses. Casinos have the same fees (house edges), ground rules, and limits, yet are ostricized to placing limits and ground rules to the outrage of many: "What!! You mean I cannot do whatever the hell I want!" "What! I cannot behave however the hell I want?" "What! You're explaining ME the rules - Mr. Pit Boss??!!" "SHOW ME WHERE IT IS WRITTEN THAT...." You would not BELIEVE how some people's boundaries of ethics and of right and wrong fly right out the window when they are in a casino with scared money on the line, and with a few (or a LOT) of drinks in them!"

Quote: thecesspit

I'll continue to count in my own small way, as I find it adds to my enjoyment of the game. Crazy, eh? It actually makes it more enjoyable, not like work at all, and makes it worth hitting up the casino for a little fun (and sure, I'm never going to make a living at it, and the casino can keep it's lights on for a few minutes with my donation).

That's fine. But:
1. Keep a low and polite profile when doing it, and especially if you get backed off. This is the Camouflage we appreciate the most!!
2. do NOT kid yourself! Do NOT feel, like many others here do - that it is a God-given birthright. It is not.
3. If real money is at stake, and if you know something is contrary to the ground rules (and you do), do not feel that it is 100% ethical, or at least understand that opposing view.

Quote: thecesspool

I don't care if one casino employee thinks it's cheating to use my brain.

No, it is not cheating to use your brain. It is cheating to break the known house rules and ground rules deliberately going into something - and knowing it! Indeed, knowing that you are breaking a house rule - whether you agree with it or not - could be construed as some act of denial, which is not using your brain.

Quote: thecesspit

I don't care if the pit boss thinks it's against his hidden house rules.

They're pretty open!

Quote: thecesspit

Until the point he asks me to stop playing, then I'll cash out and head elsewhere. There's plenty of casinos in town, and I'm a tourist.

Knock yourself out, - but don't act like you do not know the deal.

Quote: thecesspit

I understand Dan's position. I hope he at least understands mine.

Yes I do.

Quote: CrystalMath

I'm glad that this is finally settled and we all agree that counting is not cheating, nor is it morally objectionable, even for a priest.

Huh?
It was pointed out that knowingly breaking the established ground rules of something - going into something to knowingly break the house rules - can indeed be questioned ethically or morally. It's called "not playing by the known and established rules." And yes, they are not only established, but where discussed at length as to what real casinos establish as real rules - (hello, Crystal!) in the REAL casino world - as opposed to what we'd like to believe on an internet forum.

Quote: Crystal Meth

On the other hand, molestation is a crime, armed robbery is a crime, tampering with a slot machine is a crime, and using the neighbor's free internet is questionable (both legally and morally).

It was already established that card counting is not illegal - breaking the rules of the law of the land.
But in case you missed it, It was also established that card counting IS breaking the ground rules of the casino and the casino pit, and so is indeed "breaking the laws/rules of the casino," under which authority you are subject to - when playing in a casino pit. Not gabbing on the Internet - we're talking in a real world casino.

When you enter a casino, additional rules apply. This is in addition to - not "nullified by" - the general laws of the land

Quote: Paigowdan

You would not BELIEVE how some people's boundaries of ethics and of right and wrong fly right out the window when they are in a casino with scared money on the line, and with a few (or a LOT) of drinks in them!"

Look man your terribly anecdotal knowledge and bitterness is glaring. Anybody actually trying to do anything useful with card counting doesn't play with this "scared money" you keep addressing, neither do they have a lot of drinks in them, much less a single drink, drinks are just camo.

You have only caught inbred morons,the people you keep thinking that you are bashing have already won and stayed under your radar while doing it. They will continue to do it and you will have no real hard knowledge of them, and never will. People on your level of intelligence never will, you've drank the proverbial kool-aid from the casino rhetoric, and believe the people you backed off who bought in for 200$ and made a scene while being backed off were legitimate. They weren't, of anything they drew your attention away from the guy in the high-limit room smashing your faces in for 6 figures. Keep failing.

Quote: APDave

Quote: Paigowdan

You would not BELIEVE how some people's boundaries of ethics and of right and wrong fly right out the window when they are in a casino with scared money on the line, and with a few (or a LOT) of drinks in them!"

Look man your terribly anecdotal knowledge and bitterness is glaring. Anybody actually trying to do anything useful with card counting doesn't play with this "scared money" you keep addressing, neither do they have a lot of drinks in them, much less a single drink, drinks are just camo.

AP, I was saying that sadly a LOT of nefarious stuff goes on in a casino above and beyond card-counting, and that adding card-counters to the workloads of surveillance, pit crews and dealers is actually not a help for either the counter or the casino. It's a simple, straightforward and undeniable reality of the business.

Quote: APDave

You have only caught inbred morons,the people you keep thinking that you are bashing have already won and stayed under your radar while doing it.

If they are under the radar, they are not an official problem, now are they? But they do jack up expenses for all patrons, including you when you come. And you have these "under the radar" guys to thank for it. Don't complain to me, I'm just telling you how it works in the real world.
Game protection costs us real money, and you players foot the bill. Who do you think finances the gaming industry? That's the real story.

Quote: APDave

They will continue to do it and you will have no real hard knowledge of them, and never will.

I see "player alert" reports of a gazillion clowns who thought they would never, ever get caught. And they all eventually do. Trust me, every casino knows who wins and how they win if iot is money of any real importance. If you don't think this is the case, you're kidding yourself, not me. If they win clean, fine for them, really, our blessings. If they're not clean players, they get backed off, or get into the report book: Bang - career over, too bad.
That's just how it works.

Quote: APDave

People on your level of intelligence never will, you've drank the proverbial kool-aid from the casino rhetoric, and believe the people you backed off who bought in for 200$ and made a scene while being backed off were legitimate. They weren't, of anything they drew your attention away from the guy in the high-limit room smashing your faces in for 6 figures. Keep failing.

Now Dave, if that were true, we'd be out of business. Looks like we're not going anywhere. And I don't back people off. We don't back anyone off unless surveillance is involved. They are always watching, the eye in the sky (kind of makes you paranoid when you think about it, doesn't it?)
Now what do you want me to tell you? "Oooh, I'm scared of card counters? BOO!" Are you serious?
We don't have a high-limit room, and $500 is the bet limit. And yes, their play is watched. They win cleanly? Good for them. They try some manoeuver, they get caught. That simple, with no hard feelings, another day on the job.
And there was nobody smashing our faces in for 6 figures, that's your fantasy, not a $500 a hand, which, to be frank, we seldom see even that.
We know how our high-rollers are, and we love 'em.
A month a go, a player at the East Side Cannery won about $200,000 (now THERE'S six figures) on a progressive Pai Gow Jackpot. They Saluted her, gave her money with all smiles, and even used her for print advertisements.
Was this money sweated? No. We all love her and people like her in the industry. Clean win, good for everybody.
And her win brought in great business to Boulder Highway.

" In this regard, card counting, armed robbery, stealing another player's chips, molesting a cocktail waitress, etc. are ALL out of bounds within the casino itself.

So now if I see a bunch of little cards on the first round and I increase my bet on the next round, you want to equate that with
molesting a cocktail waitress. Will all due respect, you sir are SICK.

And I am still waiting for that rule. !!

Quote: Paigowdan

The casino house, - the pit boss, - defines what is cheating or "against the house rules."

No, the house defines the house rules. The law defines what is cheating.

The pit boss is, for all practical purposes, the house. If he/she says "you're limited to $5 bets, sir", then you are. But in the absence of such a limitation, a player is free to alter their bets whenever they want. If those alterations happen to coincide with favorable and unfavorable deck compositions, the house may, but is not required to, take countermeasures. But it's silly to suggest that it is cheating when the variations in bet amount are proportional to the number of high cards remaining in the deck. It would be equally possible, and in fact probably happens every day, that some poor wanna-be counter mixes up positive and negative and starts increasing bets when the deck is full of little cards. That player is no more cheating than a skilled card counter.

It seems that you're suggesting that the house rules are:
1) Wagers must be between posted table minimum and maximum.
2) Players may vary their bets between hands.
3) Players who vary their bets properly in correlation with the deck composition are cheating.

That's not accurate. The rules are more properly:
1) Wagers must be between posted table minimum and maximum.
2) Players may vary their bets between hands.
3) The house reserves the right to revoke #1 and #2 for any given player, for any reason.

Quote: buzzpaff

" In this regard, card counting, armed robbery, stealing another player's chips, molesting a cocktail waitress, etc. are ALL out of bounds within the casino itself.

So now if I see a bunch of little cards on the first round and I increase my bet on the next round, you want to equate that with
molesting a cocktail waitress. Will all due respect, you sir are SICK.

And I am still waiting for that rule. !!

here's the rule:
Either it is:
1. Within bounds by the casino's house rules, OR
2. It is out of bounds by the casino's house rules.

Any additional legal or criminal issues may also be addressed, and are handled outside the casino.
Simple.

Quote: Paigowdan

My point is that once an action is considered "out of bounds" by the casino's house rules ALONE, it is simply out of bounds - without regard to the Metropolitan police's view of it. In this regard, card counting, armed robbery, stealing another player's chips, molesting a cocktail waitress, etc. are ALL out of bounds within the casino itself. The fact that it is - or is not - illegal by some police precinct is irrelevant. Once it is outside of the casino's doors, it may or may not then be an additional a police matter.

Okay, I've restrained myself for too long, but reading THAT comment finally has made me decide to post...

You're saying that card counting is viewed the same way as molesting a cocktail waitress. This comment is not only irrational, it's chlidish!!!! First off, I don't think there would be ANY QUESTION that molesting a cocktail waitress is wrong. There may be a slight difference in what molestation means (verbal comments vs. actual physical contact), but you are WAY OUT OF LINE!

Frankly, I'm kind of sick of your "higher than everybody" attitude because you work in a casino. My guess is pretty much everybody on this forum has been to a casino more than once, and some of us have been a lot. I'm guessing I might know some procedures better than a fresh dealer out of school... I'm not saying I know everything about a casino, but I'm beginning to question whether you do now either.

I'm going to go with buzzpaff on this one... SHOW ME, IN YOUR POLICY/PROCEDURE MANUAL, CODE OF CONDUCT, ANY FIESTA PRINTED MATERIAL THAT CARD COUNTING IS "AGAINST THE RULES." There will be a code of conduct that will view stealing chips, armed robbery and molestation as "against the rule." Give a page number even, I'll trust that much.

You're confusing "against the rules" with the casino's right to back off card counters. The casino can do whatever it wants to, I don't deny that. If a casino wants to ban card counters, so be it... but a rule would state "We will ban/back off all card counters and it is against policy." The casinos don't want to lose money, I don't blame them. Furthermore, card counting is not cheating, as you don't know exactly what's going to be the next card.

You continue to swear in your posts. I see swearing as a general way of not understanding how to convey your message. I generally respect your opinions on other forums, and I do appreciate what you contribute. But the swearing NEEDS TO END! PLEASE!

You don't have a high limit room I wouldn't play there. I personally push up to 3k bets in a 30 unit spread. And I watched a guy playing heads-up behind me with 20$k single chips playing two-hands at a time, he took 1.4 mil on a Friday night, and played 700k of it back to the house on Saturday night, they never backed him off, the story is he was just running hot. I wonder though, if he might have just had really good camo, or was actually just a rich guy running hot. Either way, you don't see big action, so you don't see real card counters, and are actually very ignorant to the topic. 500$ table max is a laugh. Your knowledge is completely invalid.

AC has had a few high-limit players run extremely hot in the last year, and some of them, they don't take action from anymore, I'm curious if it's balls or just having their cover game down that well. I can't imagine these players taking a million plus in blackjack are confined to Atlantic City and don't exist in Vegas. I can tell you the people playing for those sub-500 chips are not the ones taking the big shots at your bottom-line.

Quote: MathExtremist

No, the house defines the house rules. The law defines what is cheating.

I follow what the pit crews tell me. They are not lawyers, but they do indeed and openly say card counting is:
1. "out of bounds,"
2. "O-U-T out,"
3, "cheating,"
4. "card counting,"
5. "Problem Play,"
6. etc.
Whatever the verbiage of the person on pit duty calls it, he somehow flags it and tracks it. okay.

Quote: MathExtremist

The pit boss is, for all practical purposes, the house. If he/she says "you're limited to $5 bets, sir", then you are. But in the absence of such a limitation, a player is free to alter their bets whenever they want. If those alterations happen to coincide with favorable and unfavorable deck compositions, the house may, but is not required to, take countermeasures. But it's silly to suggest that it is cheating when the variations in bet amount are proportional to the number of high cards remaining in the deck. It would be equally possible, and in fact probably happens every day, that some poor wanna-be counter mixes up positive and negative and starts increasing bets when the deck is full of little cards. That player is no more cheating than a skilled card counter.

It seems that you're suggesting that the house rules are:
1) Wagers must be between posted table minimum and maximum.
2) Players may vary their bets between hands.
3) Players who vary their bets properly in correlation with the deck composition are cheating.

That is how they use language, but how they respond are within guidelines of handling it, almost always with surveillance's opinion of a play situation. Look, it's a casino pit, not a court-room. In the process of tracking someone in the pit, they take action on it without quibbling about nomenclature. By the time an incident report is written up, the nomenclature or legaleaze is applied appropriately. so...Player goes up from $10 to $200 during a positive count, it is flagged, and surveillance and someone in the pit watches it and makes a call. Again, it may be verbally refered to as "counter on BJ-x" - "cheater on BJ #x" - "Problem Player on BJ-x" - "Out of Bounds play on BJ-x" etc.,
What have you.
Player gets flagged and tracked, countermeasures are applied.

Quote: MathExtremist

That's not accurate. The rules are more properly:
1) Wagers must be between posted table minimum and maximum.
2) Players may vary their bets between hands.
3) The house reserves the right to revoke #1 and #2 for any given player, for any reason.

Yes - they get flat-betted, or are asked to play Roulette or dice, or maybe even asked to leave. All has happened.

All that may be the case, but the house does not and cannot redefine cheating. Cheating at gambling is a statutory crime, and crimes are handled by the legal system, not by corporate policy. It is therefore an error for a casino employee to suggest that a card counter is cheating, even if they actually do use the terms "problem player" and "cheater" interchangeably.

Nobody is disputing that the house can and does handle card counters as problem players and take action against them. But card counting in Las Vegas is not cheating unless the Nevada legislature says it is.

Quote: Paigowdan

The casino house, - the pit boss, - defines what is cheating or "against the house rules."

So, we are in agreement then? I asked the pit boss, he said, it wasn't cheating, therefore, by your definition, it is not.
Finally!

Quote: Tiltpoul

Quote: Paigowdan

My point is that once an action is considered "out of bounds" by the casino's house rules ALONE, it is simply out of bounds - without regard to the Metropolitan police's view of it. In this regard, card counting, armed robbery, stealing another player's chips, molesting a cocktail waitress, etc. are ALL out of bounds within the casino itself. The fact that it is - or is not - illegal by some police precinct is irrelevant. Once it is outside of the casino's doors, it may or may not then be an additional a police matter.

Okay, I've restrained myself for too long, but reading THAT comment finally has made me decide to post...

Fine, let loose, we're here to share our thoughts and opinions...

Quote: tiltpoul

You're saying that card counting is viewed the same way as molesting a cocktail waitress.

What I said was:
1. There things within the bounds and ground rules in the casino and casino pit;
2. There are things that are out of bounds and against the grounds rules within the casino and the casino pit;
3. This may be in effect without regards to what is technically legal and illegal outside of the casino doors, and
4. Obviously, if something is also illegal, then additional legal and criminal actions may also apply.
This is actually simple to understand without offense. The concept that there are additional ground rules in the casino pit that are seperate from the laws that the local precinct enforces is really very distinct. Why is there a problem with the idea that the casino has additional ground rules to follow that separate from the local police laws??

Quote: tiltpout

Frankly, I'm kind of sick of your "higher than everybody" attitude because you work in a casino. My guess is pretty much everybody on this forum has been to a casino more than once, and some of us have been a lot. I'm guessing I might know some procedures better than a fresh dealer out of school... I'm not saying I know everything about a casino, but I'm beginning to question whether you do now either.

I think many here:
1. have not a lot of casino experience,
2. few, but some here may make a living from card counting, I dunno, but I doubt it.
3. few, but some here make a living from income derived from the gaming industry.
4. I am not high and mightly. I'm a lowly, no good gambling degenerate and game designer who works as a dealer, and has spend too much time in casinos, not too little. I never said I was high and mighty, but I have seen an awlful lot, some good, some bad, and some very ugly. And I certaionly know how and what casinos do with card counting, and that is a casino pit rule violation - plain and simple.

Quote: tiltpoul

I'm going to go with buzzpaff on this one... SHOW ME, IN YOUR POLICY/PROCEDURE MANUAL, CODE OF CONDUCT, ANY FIESTA PRINTED MATERIAL THAT CARD COUNTING IS "AGAINST THE RULES." There will be a code of conduct that will view stealing chips, armed robbery and molestation as "against the rule." Give a page number even, I'll trust that much.

Again, this is the "show me where it is written somewhere" crap or argument. If a fight breaks out in a bus or train, and someone gets stabbed, - do you say, "Aha! SHOW ME were it is written in your manual where I cannot do this!" Do you think the bus driver is going to say, "you're right, let me refer to legal bus driver's extensive library in the front of the bus, and look up the exact statute that says "a stabbing with a ball-point pen on the #32 bus line heading North is subject to, on Tuesdays when it is raining, ..." yada yada yada. The bus driver simply stops the bus and calls for help.
Likewise, in the pit, if a card counter gets caught counting cards, the pit boss says, it is a non-starter, we are addressing this," then he addresses it.
There is no telling the pit Boss, "Well! SHOW ME WEHRE it is written..." bullshit, it just doesn't work that way. This much I know, trust me, okay...

Quote: tiltpoul

You're confusing "against the rules" with the casino's right to back off card counters.

They back off card counters because it is against the casino pit's rules. How do you not understand this?

Quote: titltpul

The casino can do whatever it wants to, I don't deny that.

So now you're saying they don't have to listen to someone who they had backed off say, "SHOW ME WHERE IT IS WRITTEM THAT...yada, yada, yada...THAT I CANNOT DO THIS IN THE CASINO PIT!"

Quote: tiltpout

If a casino wants to ban card counters, so be it... but a rule would state "We will ban/back off all card counters and it is against policy."

You mean like the sign on the Pai Gow table that says, "The Ace-through-5 straight is the second highest straight, next to the 'Broadway' AKQJ10 straight" kind of little helpful sign kind of thing. You know, that might not be a bad idea.

Quote: tiltpoul

The casinos don't want to lose money, I don't blame them. Furthermore, card counting is not cheating, as you don't know exactly what's going to be the next card.

Oh, so now you are giving a definition of cheating "As knowing for sure what the next card will be or not," as you're an expert in definition of what cheating is. [And you had called me a high and mightly know-it-all!] Okay then, what if a player caps or pinches bets without knowing the next card? so now that is NOT cheating.

Quote: tiltpoul

You continue to swear in your posts. I see swearing as a general way of not understanding how to convey your message. I generally respect your opinions on other forums, and I do appreciate what you contribute. But the swearing NEEDS TO END! PLEASE!

Well, if that is a request, and it makes you uncomfortable, I will oblige you. On that point I am a potty mouth - and I do plead guilty - and will abide to your request. I agree. Shooting pool with a bunch of crap dealers at a bar after work has been a bad influence on my language usage; a lot of very negative things and aspects have crept into me being an overnight crap dealer. I dislike people more, I use more foul language, and someone who knew me years ago, and I mean years ago, feels I have changed for the worse as a person, policing little things like I was policing a crap game full of $3 dollars fleas. I can really see that when I stand back and take a look. She said I used to be a nice person many years ago....made me sad.

here's the rule:
Either it is:
1. Within bounds by the casino's house rules, OR
2. It is out of bounds by the casino's house rules.


OK I walk into my local casino. By LAW they must provide me with the legislative rules as well as the house rules. I have never seen either to contain a word about counting. Same for those casinos that have the rules on a wall under glass.

I have it on good authority than Dan is not only a very competent dealer, but friendly and outgoing. I believe he comes here to vent after dealing with some of the scum gambling attracts. Better this than to allow BURNOUT to affect his job performance. In the 1950's I quit school to support my family. I worked in a grocery store weekdays and racked in a pool hall weekends. Later on I dealt 5 card stud in the backroom. I hustled pool and did a few other things I am no proud of. Gambling attracts the lowest of the low. The same guy that tips the cocktail waitress $20 is 8 years behind in child support. Some gambler's family crest is " Win if you can, Lose if you must, BUT ALWAYS CHEAT." The so called professional gentleman gambler is almost non-existent. With rare exception given to John Carradine in STAGECOACH.

Not trying to paint everyone with the same brush, just explaining why I take offense to be called a cheater for playing against the rules. WHAT RULES DAN ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Dan I thought you were a nice person when we had drinks and played a little.

Another long tirade. But SHOW ME THE RULES WHEN I ASK FOR THEM> WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT
REQUEST. BAR ME IF YOU THINK I AM CAPABLE OF WINNING< BUT DO NOT CALL ME A CHEATER !!

" Dan I thought you were a nice person when we had drinks and played a little. " I do not care how nice a person is when they call me a cheater. My dad told me, " Anytime someone says don't take it personal, TAKE IT PERSONAL"

She said I used to be a nice person many years ago....made me sad.

Then work on changing. Your beautiful wife deserves better.

Quote: buzzpaff

here's the rule:
Either it is:
1. Within bounds by the casino's house rules, OR
2. It is out of bounds by the casino's house rules.

OK I walk into my local casino. By LAW they must provide me with the legislative rules as well as the house rules. I have never seen either to contain a word about counting. Same for those casinos that have the rules on a wall under glass.

I love it! Are you serious? Go right up to the pit and ask them, "Show me were it is written that I cannot be a card counter here!
Also - can you get a copy of their Pai Gow house way? Serious, I'd be curious.

Quote: buzzpaff

I have it on good authority than Dan is not only a very competent dealer, but friendly and outgoing. I believe he comes here to vent after dealing with some of the scum gambling attracts. Better this than to allow BURNOUT to affect his job performance.

Thanks! I am burnt out from dealing, I really am. I plan on retiring by the end of the year if I can from EZ Pai Gow.
I can understand why gamblers get upset when I said I've seen some rough things from gamblers, but the casino pit environment in a locals market can get ugly from just a few bad apples.
Look, do people take shots when they are betting money they should be betting? Yes they can.
Do some people get their "juice" from taking shots, and trying to poker the dealer in the eye, as opposed to getting their action from the straight play of the game? Yes, poking the dealer in the eye is a sport for some. A side bet, if you will.
Do people feel a sense of freedom, entitlement, and an almost ridiculous loosening of bounds in a casino, as opposed to let's say, at a hospital or at a Mass? Yup.
Throw free alcohol on top of that, and you can have some ugly situations.
And everyone says, "No! Not me! You're WRONG, Dan! You are high and mighty!" No, I'm lowly and really burnt out.
I'm saying we're human, we have impulsive, we can behave badly, we drink, we think the dealers and the floormen are our personal valets, we can tell them but they cannot tell us - what have you.
For $7.25 an hour and $40 a day in tips.
As a dealer and a player, I know the pit boss makes the call, and the dealer has a tough job. Maybe not at Ceasars.

Quote: buzzpaff

In the 1950's I quit school to support my family. I worked in a grocery store weekdays and racked in a pool hall weekends. Later on I dealt 5 card stud in the backroom. I hustled pool and did a few other things I am no proud of. Gambling attracts the lowest of the low. The same guy that tips the cocktail waitress $20 is 8 years behind in child support. Some gambler's family crest is " Win if you can, Lose if you must, BUT ALWAYS CHEAT." The so called professional gentleman gambler is almost non-existent. With rare exception given to John Carradine in STAGECOACH.

Not trying to paint everyone with the same brush, just explaining why I take offense to be called a cheater for playing against the rules. WHAT RULES DAN ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The rule that card counting is against the house rules/ground rules of BJ play, and the casino pit boss makes the call.
That rule.

Quote: buzzpaff

She said I used to be a nice person many years ago....made me sad.

Then work on changing. Your beautiful wife deserves better.

Ah! Not me though!
I haven't noticed how or if I had changed, because it was me.
Those most close to a situation are most blind.

The rule that card counting is against the house rules/ground rules of BJ play, and the casino pit boss makes the call.
That rule.

I told you the casino has to provide me with the rules. I read the rules and abide by them. Then I am called a cheater !
I feel like I am trying to teach a pig to sing. Wasting my time and annoying the pig. I'm DONE !!!!!

Quote: Paigowdan

I love it! Are you serious? Go right up to the pit and ask them, "Show me were it is written that I cannot be a card counter here!

I did :) Remember?
They told me there was no such rule.

Quote: weaselman

I did :) Remember?
They told me there was no such rule.

They're lying, and you know they are.
They are assuming that they wouldn't have to back you off.
If push came to shove - you know the deal: the pit boss tells you.

Quote: buzzpaff

No it does not go without saying. You and Dan have both now accused me of cheating by violating a rule. Show me that rule or regulation that says I can not count. There is none. All that exist is your decision to back me off if you think I might win. Worse yet I have been backed off when losing. So you are in effect saying, we know you are losing but we fear you are good enough to get back to even, therefore leave.
SHOW ME THE RULE I AM ACCUSED OF VIOLATING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

buzz, your indignation appears to be blinding you. I didn't offer an opinion whatsoever. I simply supplied info from literature available to me as protection personnel in NY. I even stated, in the paragraph you chose to exclude in your quote, that nowhere in any manual does it say "Card counting is cheating, illegal or against the rules". I only said it was considered "against the rules" as far as casino management is concerned. Surely you understand the difference of these two sentences?

So you can properly judge my opinion, here it is. Both as a regular guy and a professional in game protection, I don't consider it "cheating". "Cheating" to me is marking cards, past-posting, pinching, etc. I do, however, somewhat understand Dan's position and somewhat agree. Looking at it objectively and from a purist's perspective, I see counting as not part of the game. The game of BJ is basically a game of chance, you hope the right cards come out at the right time. Same as craps, you hope that random outcome hits in your favor, same as roulette, same as 3CP. Counting gives you information to know the next cards out to some degree, which was NOT how the game was intended to exist. I see this as fact. Card counting became part of the game, but not by the casino or the creator, it came by the players. That makes it NOT part of the game and NOT how the game is intended to be played from a purist's perspective. Based on Dan's comment of

Quote: Paigowdan

...it is because of the history and the development of blackjack that this situation came to be.

, I believe this to be his stance, which I understand and, to a point, agree with.

Back to my personal opinion and fast forward to today - I, who was created some 30 years AFTER card counting, see counting as just part of the game. It's the only way I've ever known BJ and I just accept it. As EvenBob said...

Quote: EvenBob

...counting is already on the table, we know where
both sides stand on it.

That's how I look at it. If anything, I'm pro-counter. I hate the sweat-the-money attitude, I hate chasing ghosts, and I believe for every counter with the skill, the bankroll and the balls to succeed at counting, there's a thousand posers that think they can but just give money away. Add in the fact that casino heat keeps counters within acceptable losses, I see counting as a good thing for the casino. Maybe you can do it well, maybe the Wiz can, I'm sure there's others here thay may be successful. But take you and the others and compare them to the posers and the scales are definately in the casino's favor. Cheaters? Didn't come from my mouth. Carry on, enjoy and good luck.

Quote: Paigowdan

3. The casinos have a secret book of "dark arts - a la Lord Voldemort - that keeps players spelledbound and victims of the casino (THIS was off the wall)

Do you actually read follow up posts before you
give one of your Sermons from the Mount? Thats
not what I said at all, but you inferred that I did,
so in your mind its the truth. I was talking about
the books written on casino decor, and ways to
keep the suckers, er players, in the casino until
all their money's gone. Like confusing and
disorienting carpet designs, no clocks, no windows,
scantily clad waitresses, distracting noise. Everything
in the modern casino is specifically designed to
keep people there as long as possible, not so
they'll win, not so they'll have the chance to get
their money back, as you so laughably claim,
but to keep them going back to the ATM till their
bank account is drained.

Quote: Paigowdan

FACT: No one around this board makes a viable living as a card-counter. \

So what. Almost nobody in the history of counting has 'made a living'
from it on their own. All the big money has always been in BJ teams,
and still is. They are still going strong in Europe and if you think they
aren't in Vegas, you really are in denial.

Quote: EvenBob

Do you actually read follow up posts before you
give one of your Sermons from the Mount? Thats
not what I said at all, but you inferred that I did,
so in your mind its the truth. I was talking about
the books written on casino decor, and ways to
keep the suckers, er players, in the casino until
all their money's gone. Like confusing and
disorienting carpet designs, no clocks, no windows,
scantily clad waitresses, distracting noise. Everything
in the modern casino is specifically designed to
keep people there as long as possible, not so
they'll win, not so they'll have the chance to get
their money back, as you so laughably claim,
but to keep them going back to the ATM till their
bank account is drained.

This is out there. There's no kidnappings, no spells, no concpiracies - nothing of this sort
Players come and go and play as they wish, as they see fit.

This whole 'theres a rule' thing is a joke. Obviously
there is no rule written anywhere, its an unspoken
rule that anybody suspected of winning by going
outside the guidelines, is dealt with. Dan WANTS
there to be a rule, thats why he's got on his top
hat and tap shoes and is dancing up a storm to
pretend there is one. He's like the guy who owns
a 7-11 and can't stop the kids from stealing his
candy, so he tries to convince them they're all
going to prison unless they stop. He's trying
to convince us that BJ is dead (its not), that its
a crime (its not), that its immoral (its not) and
that the casino has rules written down that its
not allowed (they don't). Like everybody keeps
pointing out, if BJ is soooooo dead, if its sooooo
over, if nobody anywhere can make money at it,
why is the casino still sooooo fricking worried about
it.

Quote: APDave

Yea no rule against it, but I'll stop playing a selective dealers table quick. On the other hand a dealer giving good penetration who doesn't do shit like that gets tipped well, by me anyway. It tends to coincide with me winning and not sweating the tip money.

I see - it's SHIT if the dealer does it, but good old advantage play if you do it. Hilarious! And moving from the table is exactly what they want. To another casino, maybe?

Quote: EvenBob

This whole 'theres a rule' thing is a joke. Obviously
there is no rule written anywhere, its an unspoken
rule that anybody suspected of winning by going
outside the guidelines, is dealt with. Dan WANTS
there to be a rule, thats why he's got on his top
hat and tap shoes and is dancing up a storm to
pretend there is one. He's like the guy who owns
a 7-11 and can't stop the kids from stealing his
candy, so he tries to convince them they're all
going to prison unless they stop. He's trying
to convince us that BJ is dead (its not), that its
a crime (its not), that its immoral (its not) and
that the casino has rules written down that its
not allowed (they don't). Like everybody keeps
pointing out, if BJ is soooooo dead, if its sooooo
over, if nobody anywhere can make money at it,
why is the casino still sooooo fricking worried about
it.

SIMPLE. If they don't worry about it and act accordingly anyone can make money counting. You forgot the most important
adjective-unethical.

I can attest that Dan could have only voted twice for "yes."

Quote: dm

SIMPLE. If they don't worry about it and act accordingly anyone can make money counting.

And the funny thing is, even if they left counters alone,
they really don't make enough to effect a casinos bottom
line. No, what irritates the casino, what drives them nuts
and sticks in their craw (and Dan's), is that somebody has
the freaking audacity to come into their house and beat
them at their own game. The casino is the smart one and
we're all suckers, thats how they look at us and don't let
let anybody tell you different. Look how Dan lectures us.
He's in charge and we're 'idiots' and 'clowns', as he likes
to say. Why can't we just play by the rules, why can't we
just give our money to the casino and leave it at that.

One of my favorite lines from the show 'Deadwood' is
when two casino owners are talking to each other about
how hard it is to get the players to stay in your casino and
keep losing. One says "Its too bad we can't just hit them
over the head, steal their money, and throw their bodies in the creek."
Thats still the casinos attitude today, basically. They just
express it differently.

Quote: Paigowdan

2. What really goes on at casinos is that it is the PLAYERS are exchanging THEIR wins and loses among one another, with the house taking a house edge cut from the action. Now you, as our friend, haven't figured that out yet. We want you to. Casinos only charge a house edge to actually let players play against one another with the house edge covering dealer and operational expenses.

HUH??? If thats true, why on earth would a casino
give one damn about what card counters do? They're
just 'stealing' other players money, not the casinos.
Just like in poker, they don't care who's cheating,
they get their cut no matter what. The truth is, a
casino would go out of business if all they had to live
on was the HE. Take roulette for instance. The HE is
just over 5%, but the hold is between 19% and 25%,
according to UNLV. Thats a far cry from the casino
having just the HE to cover everything.

Quote: EvenBob

And the funny thing is, even if they left counters alone,
they really don't make enough to effect a casinos bottom
line. No, what irritates the casino, what drives them nuts
and sticks in their craw (and Dan's), is that somebody has
the freaking audacity to come into their house and beat
them at their own game. The casino is the smart one and
we're all suckers, thats how they look at us and don't let
let anybody tell you different. Look how Dan lectures us.
He's in charge and we're 'idiots' and 'clowns', as he likes
to say. Why can't we just play by the rules, why can't we
just give our money to the casino and leave it at that.

One of my favorite lines from the show 'Deadwood' is
when two casino owners are talking to each other about
how hard it is to get the players to stay in your casino and
keep losing. One says "Its too bad we can't just hit them
over the head, steal their money, and throw their bodies in the creek."
Thats still the casinos attitude today, basically. They just
express it differently.

If they left the counters alone they would be inundated with new professionals making a very nice living...including me. Please explain why you are not allowed to use a machine to post the cards to, as they are dealt, that tells you exactly what to hold and what the running house edge is? Your statement is just wrong

Quote: Paigowdan

They're lying, and you know they are.

No, they aren't, and no, I don't. Why would they lie to me about their own rules? Wouldn't it be just idiotic?

Quote:

They are assuming that they wouldn't have to back you off.

No, they aren't. They pretty much told me that if they think I count, and do well enough, they will ask me to stop. They don't want me to count, I know. But doing something somebody else does not want you to do is not the same thing as cheating. For example, I don't want them to use CSM, or to pay 6:5 for a blackjack, but they (sometimes) do. I don't call them cheaters, I just "back them off" by choosing not to play at that table.

Quote: dm

If they left the counters alone they would be inundated with new professionals making a very nice living.

I'm talking about the counters who don't know
what they're doing, which is about 98% of them.
They're the ones that get busted, the good ones
usually get away with it.

This is easy. Counting is not cheating. Altering your bets is not cheating. Casinos have the right to deny access to their games to players they choose to. They may choose to deny access to players they identify as card counters. Simple.

I will give $1,000 to anyone who can show me a law that card counting is illegal in Nevada. For example, a Gaming regulation or something in the penal code.

I recognize that casinos may prohibit counters from playing, but that is not the same thing. They may ask anybody to quit playing any game, for almost any reason they wish. So let's not even quote that one.

Also, while it is harder than it used to be, there are still quite a few successful card counters out there. I would hazard to say most are opperating outside the United States. Also, I think it is easier making money counting cards than inventing casino games.

Quote: dm

I see - it's SHIT if the dealer does it, but good old advantage play if you do it. Hilarious! And moving from the table is exactly what they want. To another casino, maybe?

Exactly. They back me off when I count, I "back them off" (by leaving) when they count.
I am not telling them they are cheats or anything like that. I just don't like playing with them anymore, so I stop.

I'll state my opinion again.

Casinos create the conditions for Blackjack to invite those who think they can count to play the game. For those who think they can count (but really can't), the casino offers the single deck, double deck, and shoe dealt games where they dare you to attempt to make a count. However, the moment that a true counter comes in and works the system properly, the casino has the right to shut you down and back you off from play, not because that it's illegal, but because they know you're an advantage player.

If Lubin's point is to be taken as true and casinos don't tolerate counting, well then, get rid of the shoe and go with CSMs all the way. Offer better rules as the denominations go up, but get rid of the shoes, and get rid of counters in the meantime. Problem solved. Nevada should just change their gaming rules and disallow hand shuffles for blackjack.

I don't have the problem with doing hand-held shoes with early shuffles if they suspect counting, or closing down the game until the counter leaves, or having a real shallow penetration, or changing the hand limits so that a person can't go more than 4x outside of their usual bet. To back off someone however, for doing an activity that invites a counter to play, I think, is unfair. So unfair that New Jersey disallows it.

They can and do half shoe, shuffle early and flat bet players in Atlantic City.

Quote: Wizard

I will give $1,000 to anyone who can show me a law that card counting is illegal in Nevada. For example, a Gaming
regulation or something in the penal code.

I recognize that casinos may prohibit counters from playing, but that is not the same thing. They may ask anybody to quit playing any game, for almost any reason they wish. So let's not even quote that one.

Also, while it is harder than it used to be, there are still quite a few successful card counters out there. I would hazard to say most are opperating outside the United States. Also, I think it is easier making money counting cards than inventing casino games.

What good would it do to have it posted that counting is considered illegal? It's UNPROVABLE! They would look like fools to do that.
Wiz, I guess you think it "illegal" to prevent the use of mechanical devices to count. Hey everybody, it's illegal to lust so be careful.

Quote: Wizard

I will give $1,000 to anyone who can show me a law that card counting is illegal in Nevada. For example, a Gaming regulation or something in the penal code.

I recognize that casinos may prohibit counters from playing, but that is not the same thing. They may ask anybody to quit playing any game, for almost any reason they wish. So let's not even quote that one.

Also, while it is harder than it used to be, there are still quite a few successful card counters out there. I would hazard to say most are opperating outside the United States. Also, I think it is easier making money counting cards than inventing casino games.

Card counting is indeed illegal if you use a device to do it:

Quote: NRS 465

NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities. It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as permitted by the Commission.

In fact, an iPhone app for card counting that came out a few years ago prompted the following GCB letter:
Memo on iPhone card counting app

Quote: Wizard

I will give $1,000 to anyone who can show me a law that card counting is illegal in Nevada. For example, a Gaming regulation or something in the penal code.

I recognize that casinos may prohibit counters from playing, but that is not the same thing. They may ask anybody to quit playing any game, for almost any reason they wish. So let's not even quote that one.

Also, while it is harder than it used to be, there are still quite a few successful card counters out there. I would hazard to say most are operating outside the United States. Also, I think it is easier making money counting cards than inventing casino games.

Actually, SOMEHOW DEFENDING DAN, I don't think anybody is questioning the legality of card counting. He himself said that the CASINOS consider it cheating, but once you get outside the casino, the police will not back you up.

The forum question is "Is Card Counting Cheating?" Dan would argue this to be absolutely true, and using any knowledge you may have in your brain to make a decision about what to bet could cause the casinos to go crazy and say you are breaking a rule. I may just start a forum, saying "Is Playing Perfect Basic Strategy Cheating?" It gives you an edge, and sure the gift shop may sell the card, but if you're using it on a table, that could be considered cheating.

And Wiz, according to Dan, there are no successful card counters out there, and certainly none on this forum. You can read his explicit BOLDED statement in a few posts... you would be better off playing EZ Pai Gow with a 2.47% house edge than Blackjack. You will not make any money on blackjack and you never will.

Quote: Wizard

Also, while it is harder than it used to be, there are still quite a few successful card counters out there. I would hazard to say most are opperating outside the United States. Also, I think it is easier making money counting cards than inventing casino games.

Yes, Card counting is harder then it used to be.

I have been both a successful card counter (making over a $million in over 10 years before i become a games inventor) as well as a successful games inventor (making $millions up to now) (they are both very hard job).

I would say it is harder to be a successful games inventor then to be a successful card counter.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Yes, Card counting is harder then it used to be.

I have been both a successful card counter (making over a $million in over 10 years before i become a games inventor) as well as a successful games inventor (making $millions up to now) (they are both very hard job).

I would say it is harder to be a successful games inventor then to be a successful card counter.

Are you not listening to Dan? You are obviously a liar...

Quote: PaiGowDan

CARD COUNTING IS SIMPLY DEAD AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
YOU CANNOT MAKE A F****** DIME FROM IT - NO LESS A CAREER OR EVEN A PASTTIME TO BRAG ABOUT - EXCEPT HERE.
IT IS NOT REAL GAMBLING IF THE CASINO THROWS YOU OUT FOR IT - AND THEY CAN AND WILL.
THEY WILL THROW YOU OUT FOR WASTING YOUR TIME - NOT ONLY THEIRS.
IT IS NOT REAL ADVANCEMENT IN GAMING, IT IS ANCIENT.
LEARN POKER
LEARN DICE
LEARN PAI GOW
LEARN ANOTHER FREAKING GAME
LEARN HOW TO DESIGN A NEW CASINO GAME AND SELL IT
LEARN HOW TO DEAL
IF YOU COUNT CARDS, SHOW US THE MONEY, OR GET A LIFE.

You and Wizard are both wrong about this. How many times does he have to state that?

Quote: Face

I see counting as not part of the game. The game of BJ is basically a game of chance, you hope the right cards come out at the right time. Same as craps, you hope that random outcome hits in your favor, same as roulette, same as 3CP. Counting gives you information to know the next cards out to some degree, which was NOT how the game was intended to exist. I see this as fact. Card counting became part of the game, but not by the casino or the creator, it came by the players. That makes it NOT part of the game and NOT how the game is intended to be played from a purist's perspective.

I am a baseball purist but I would never be foolish enough to ask people to play the game as it was intended. Let's just take the home run, before Babe Ruth it hardly existed and it was a different type of game. The sultan of swat changed everything and in this purist's perspective added a new element to the game that I love. Not everyone can hit a home run but to say it is not part of the game just because the original inventors didn't intend there to be such a thing is crazy. Again if you can do something well and it is technically a legal part of the game than to ask someone not to do it is like telling the Babe to bunt every time he is at bat or like Barry Bonds tell him to take a walk every time he gets up. What's the fun of that?

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Yes, Card counting is harder then it used to be.

I have been both a successful card counter (making over a $million in over 10 years before i become a games inventor) as well as a successful games inventor (making $millions up to now) (they are both very hard job).

I would say it is harder to be a successful games inventor then to be a successful card counter.

Actually, without going into details, Steve made the bulk of his Blackjack-playing income from using other advantage plays aside from counting. He did not use any form of cheating to get the edge, i.e. devices, marking etc., it was all using the mind.

Also, I can attest to his win as I was there for a large proportion of the time and witnessed the wins.