Why did he let me do this?

Was playing blackjack the other day, trying to take advantage of a "hot seat" promotion. (I didn't win). Betting $5 a hand on a 6D, H17 game. Gentleman next to me is playing also, and losing. Finally, he puts the rest of his chips ($25 in red) on the circle for one last hand. He is dealt A-8 against a dealer upcard of 6. I half-jokingly say, "double down." He says, "I don't have enough chips." I push a stack of red towards him and he places it next to his bet for a double down.

(By the way, the Wizard says in these situations you should always take any half of a double-down since it is a positive expectation bet).

He is dealt a 7 to reduce his hand to 16. Everyone else stands. Dealer turns over a 9 for 15 and hits with a 2 to make 17. Player loses. He leaves without a noticeable expression or any anger whatsoever.

Now, maybe he knew what he was getting into, and wanted to take a chance, but this was a really poor double down for him. He would most likely make his hand worse. By staying, he would have done better given his limited bankroll.

I kind of feel bad for taking advantage, but he didn't seem to care. Did I do the wrong thing here?

>Did I do the wrong thing here?

Since he himself could not benefit from the doubling down without the money to do it, you really screwed the guy pretty bad. He might not have thought this out and went on an impulse, assuming he knew that double down was the best play for someone with the bankroll.

edit: someone might correct me on the idea you screwed him, let's see.

Quote: teddys

Was playing blackjack the other day, trying to take advantage of a "hot seat" promotion. (I didn't win). Betting $5 a hand on a 6D, H17 game. Gentleman next to me is playing also, and losing. Finally, he puts the rest of his chips ($25 in red) on the circle for one last hand. He is dealt A-8 against a dealer upcard of 6. I half-jokingly say, "double down." He says, "I don't have enough chips." I push a stack of red towards him and he places it next to his bet for a double down.

(By the way, the Wizard says in these situations you should always take any half of a double-down since it is a positive expectation bet).

He is dealt a 7 to reduce his hand to 16. Everyone else stands. Dealer turns over a 9 for 15 and hits with a 2 to make 17. Player loses. He leaves without a noticeable expression or any anger whatsoever.

Now, maybe he knew what he was getting into, and wanted to take a chance, but this was a really poor double down for him. He would most likely make his hand worse. By staying, he would have done better given his limited bankroll.

I kind of feel bad for taking advantage, but he didn't seem to care. Did I do the wrong thing here?

Soooo...you turned a dealer's 22 into a dealer's 17? Did the other players claw your eyes out?

If the other player let me, I'd have done the same thing in your position. And I suppose the other player was resigned to losing all of his money - you just made it happen faster.

I don't know what the right play is. But assuming doubling was the right move, and he knew it, then you didn't do wrong.

BTW when you front someone a bet, or risk your moeny alongside someone else's, you're not half-joking :)

IMO, if he was playing basic strategy, then your suggestion/offer to DD did not mess him up. It was the right call The player knew it was the right play and unfortunately you both came up short. I have been in a situation once or twice where I was down to my last bet (lost enough) and pulled an 11 - I asked the table if anyone wanted to double down and split the winnings and ended up losing the hand. It happens, don't lose any sleep over it

But if the guy clearly had no clue when to hit/stay/DD, then I wouldnt never would have made the DD suggestion.

> He is dealt A-8 against a dealer upcard of 6.
I KNOW that that little tiny box on the blackjack practice site would tell me to Double. I'm sure that tiny woman who lives in my GPS would tell me to Double. But I would not go from 19 figuring I'm close enough, don't spoil it.

>I kind of feel bad for taking advantage, but he didn't seem to care.
Why should he care, its not as if his arm was still sore from your having twisted it behind his back. His luck was bad all night. Why should he get upset at the final hand.

> Did I do the wrong thing here?
YES. You did. You got involved without the terms being clear and it would have been better to use the same phrase the dealers have learned to use "the book says" so that he realizes its his decision.

Sounds like the guy was done playing, so didn't really care that much about winning or losing. Doing the DD was a fun way to finish, even with the loss.

The only thing you might have done differently is to ask him if he'd double if he had the chips. THEN ask if he'd mind if you put up the chips for the double.

I think the motion of him taking the chips and placing them next to his bet was enough to signal agreement with the arrangement to double down. He really screwed himself, though. (I did take somebody's split ace and won on that, so the night wasn't a total loss for scavenging).

I have been rather ruthless at the blackjack table recently. At Hacienda, I hit on 12 against a 2 or 3 (can't remember which) and got a seven for 19. At the conclusion of the hand, guy next to me playing two hands says, "If you had stood, the dealer would have gotten that seven and busted and everyone would have won."

I replied, "I don't care. As long as I win. Blackjack is not a 'team' game." He left shortly thereafter :)

All correct BS strategy plays !

I used to do the same when other players do not know or are too scared to make the correct play.

Now I just focus on my own plays and the cards, I dont think playing other people's hands can add that much to your EV.

Quote: teddys

I replied, "I don't care. As long as I win. Blackjack is not a 'team' game." He left shortly thereafter :)

I'd always prefer to win double over every else winning once along with me.

I guess I don't understand the mathematics behind basic strategy(BS) well enough, but here are my thoughts. First off, a 19 doesn't seem to me, to be a very bad hand in a bj game. Secondly, the only way you could match or better that hand is to get dealt a 10 value card or an ace, so you're either back at 19 again or 20, just for the chance at doubling your bet(greed?). Personally, against the BS concept, I would probably just sit tight with my 19 and if I win, great, if I lose, chucks. I've also been known to stand at 15 against dealers 7 card showing, so.....

For me the graph below shows the importance of BS !!


Dealer's Uphand 17+ 18+ 19+ 20+ 21 BJ Bust
2 65% 51% 37% 24% 12% 0% 35%
3 63 49 36 24 12 0 37
4 60 47 35 23 11 0 40
5 58 46 34 22 11 0 42
6 58 41 31 20 10 0 42
7 74 37 23 15 7 0 26
8 76 63 27 14 7 0 24
9 77 65 53 18 6 0 23
10 71 60 49 38 4 8 21
A 58 45 32 19 3 31 11


15 vs 7

As you can see w/ a 7 showing , the dealer will bust less than 3 x out of 10. Hitting is a better play, 2,3,4 gives you a pat hand and 5/6 should gives you at least a push and maybe a winner :). So 6 out of the 13 cards will not bust you, 46 % . By staying the dealer only busts 26 %. Do the math !!

A/8 vs 6( does not come very often, when it does, go for it :) !!)

A,2, 10- improves or keeps your hand the same, so 6 out of the 13 cards will help you. So that combined w/ a 42 % bust rate of the 6, makes doubling a better play.

A bet saved , is a bet earned !!

Quote: teddys

I think the motion of him taking the chips and placing them next to his bet was enough to signal agreement with the arrangement to double down.

Maybe, he thought, you would give him (part of) your winnings if he won. I have seen people do that in similar situations, and I that's what I would expect if someone suggested to fund my double (not that it is very easy for me to imagine myself in a situation when I cannot just reach for the wallet, and get another fifty to fund it myself).

Either way, unless he expected you to give him all of the winnings, it was a very dumb move on his part. People, who are saying he made the right play are mistaken. You are mistaken too in your remark about doubling for less (I think, the Wizard's note you were referring to was about a "triple down" promotion - it would indeed always be good to "triple for less" as long as you at least double, but only in those hands where you would normally double, but not in those that you hit according to BS, but triple when you can).

The expectation of the doubled hand in this case is 0.4611, the expectation of standing is 0.4531, which means that "doubling for free" in this case will cost you 0.4531-0.4611/2 = 0.2226 units on average. For the "double for less" to be preferable to standing in this situation, you need to bet at least 2*0.4531/0.4611 = 1.9653 units (i.e., you would need to give $24.14 of your winnings to the guy for the deal to be fair).

Quote: weaselman

The expectation of the doubled hand in this case is 0.4611, the expectation of standing is 0.4531, which means that "doubling for free" in this case will cost you 0.4531-0.4611/2 = 0.2226 units on average. For the "double for less" to be preferable to standing in this situation, you need to bet at least 2*0.4531/0.4611 = 1.9653 units (i.e., you would need to give $24.14 of your winnings to the guy for the deal to be fair).

If I understand this right, the act of doubling without being the person to put up the extra money, means the player should just stand or the benefit of better EV does not occur!

Quote: teddys

He says, "I don't have enough chips." I push a stack of red towards him and he places it next to his bet for a double down... Player loses. He leaves without a noticeable expression or any anger whatsoever...Did I do the wrong thing here?

Well, unless he repaid you for the "loan," then I'd have to say yes, you did something wrong.

Never give money to freeway offramp beggars, or strangers gambling in a casino.

I think if you would have said "I'll give you $5 if you let me double down" then that releases you from all claims of doing the wrong thing.

Quote: teddys

Was playing blackjack the other day, trying to take advantage of a "hot seat" promotion. (I didn't win). Betting $5 a hand on a 6D, H17 game. Gentleman next to me is playing also, and losing. Finally, he puts the rest of his chips ($25 in red) on the circle for one last hand. He is dealt A-8 against a dealer upcard of 6. I half-jokingly say, "double down." He says, "I don't have enough chips." I push a stack of red towards him and he places it next to his bet for a double down.
...
I kind of feel bad for taking advantage, but he didn't seem to care. Did I do the wrong thing here?

You're totally off the hook.
You:
1. Did not put a gun to his head to double down, nor did you insist.
2. It was the play to make.
3. He was gambling.

Now He:
1. He willing took your chips - with his hand - you didn't place his bet - he did.
2. He signaled the double-down to the dealer and camera, not you.

Quote: DonPedro

Now I just focus on my own plays and the cards, I don't think playing other people's hands can add that much to your EV.

I don't think it would add that much either but even if you math sharpies come with charts, tables and some of those Al Gore Rythyms to prove your point, I still ain't gonna never think it would be worth the headache.

>Never give money to freeway off-ramp beggars
we are not such a bad lot.
>or strangers gambling in a casino.
Agreed!!

Quote: odiousgambit

If I understand this right, the act of doubling without being the person to put up the extra money, means the player should just stand or the benefit of better EV does not occur!

In this case, yes. Sometimes, it might be better to hit than to stand if you cannot double (think 11 vs. 6).
Note that it's not that "the benefit of better EV" just "does not occur". The EV actually goes down (the expectation of a doubled hand is less than twice the expectation of the original, so, if you only get a half of the winnings, you will end up worse off).

AFAICS, the only situation when it is a good idea to accept somebody's offer to double is when the person offers you a part of their share of winnings and, this is a hand, that you would otherwise hit, and only take one card anyway (like 12 vs. 3) - in this case your EV gets improved on the account of the additional money the other person would give you in case of a win. It is a pretty dumb move on the other person's part though.

I assume he would have given me my original bet back plus my winnings. So $50 for him and $50 for me. That's the way it's usually done on scavenger doubles.

I have never had anybody offer to double on my hand. But I always double when it's called for.

A good double for both me and him would be something like a soft 17 against a 6 -- you are going to take exactly one hit anyway, so might as well double and we both have positive expectation.

The soft 19 vs. the 6 really couldn't have been a worse proposition for him (not that it was a great one for me either).

Quote: teddys

A good double for both me and him would be something like a soft 17 against a 6 -- you are going to take exactly one hit anyway, so might as well double and we both have positive expectation.

It would be good for you, and indifferent for him :) For it to be good for him, you'd have to share your winnings with him.
If I was in his shoes, I would not let you double for free. Either give me a half of your winnings, or buy my hand for $30, if you prefer, and do whatever you want with it :)

Quote:

The soft 19 vs. the 6 really couldn't have been a worse proposition for him (not that it was a great one for me either).

Oh, it was a great one for you - a free +EV bet sounds like a really good deal ... you must be a hard man to impress :)