What would you have done?

Last month I was at a major strip casino where the majority of the BJ tables in the casino were six deck - H17, but I happened to find a few tables in a pit that were six deck - S17. And when available, I always will play S17 opposed to H17. I was sitting at a table with two other guys who didn’t seem to know much about the game since they would always discuss with each other if they should hit/stay/double down, etc. But for the most part their decisions were in line with basic strategy. Anyway I was betting between $25/50 a hand and after about thirty minutes I was up about $450 and my table mates, who I found out were visiting from Australia, were doing just as well. With each passing shoe we were all making our double downs, getting a steady stream of BJs and celebrating with the multiple dealer busts. After a new shuffle and a small pot of winnings I decided to start betting blacks chips, as the dealer loudly announced it to an uninterested pit boss. My very first hand from a new shoe I am dealt an 11 and the dealer is showing a 6. My Aussie friends each happily stayed with their 18 and 20, and naturally I double down but was disgusted to pull a 4. The dealer turns over her hole card to reveal an ace – S17 for the dealer beats my pitiful 15. I look over at my Aussie friends in slight disbelief of my loss of $200, but they looked confused as if they didn’t know if they had won or not. As I am waiting for the dealer to take my $200, she does something that shocks me. She pulls another card from the shoe and deals herself an 8. My heart starts racing, I don’t understand what she is doing, I look over to the pit boss who isn’t even looking at our table, I look back to the table to see her cards covering the sign that says “Dealer Stands on Soft 17”. Then she reached for the shoe again and pulls out a face card and busts. She pays me and my happy friends at the end of the table our winnings. I cautiously take my winnings, ask the dealer to color up and head to the cashier amazed the dealer made such a mistake.

Just curious to know what you all would have done in this situation? Remember, regardless of your choice, the rest of the table would have gotten paid because their hands beat the S17.

I would have done what you did.

I guess here's my reasoning(keyword "my"), so whether it makes sense(or not) to anybody else, time will tell. Unlike the $1k chip on the floor thread where that is an individuals money vs. the casino's money, I have zero guilt trip taking the casino's money, but I do get that guilt trip if it's an individuals. Why that's so, I don't know. Maybe the fact that I think the casino can afford losing it more than an individual can(although that individual is gambling, so I guess that person must be able to afford to do so).

I would take the win. Not sure how to explain why exactly. I do not quite agree with the above about "casino money" vs. "player money". If the cashier in a casino made a mistake, and overpaid me, I would point it out to her. If I found a chip on the floor, that a dealer dropped (sounds impossible, but hypothetically), I would have returned it.
But a dealer mistake in my favor in the game somehow looks fair. It is not my responsibility to enforce house rules. If they want to pay me, I'll take the win.

It's just another example of ethics taking a beating inside a casino.

And that's not a value judgement on my part, because I probably would have done the same thing - or perhaps even stick around to see if she'll repeat the mistake!

Quote: mgreiche

She pays me and my happy friends at the end of the table our winnings. I cautiously take my winnings, ask the dealer to color up and head to the cashier amazed the dealer made such a mistake.

You didn't tip the dealer after that?

I'd have done what you did. Nareed's Law (too busy to look up the number) states you're not responsible for correcting dealer mistakes in your favor. you may do so, but it's up to you. Just as the dealer is not responsible for correcting player errors in the casino's favor. if a player is dealt two face cards and he wants to double down, hey that's his choice.

I expect Dan will disagree.

Yes Nareed, I was tipping the dealer and making bets for her after almost every BJ and DD win. But admittedly, after this "win" and my shock at her error, took my money and left the table.

Quote: Nareed

You didn't tip the dealer after that?

Actually, a black chip bettor is smart NOT to tip the dealer after a mistake like that. That could easily put the dealer into question by management of collusion.

You were very smart to get up after that hand. I might have played one or two more, so not to draw attention to myself, but hanging around too long could have negative consequences. One time, back when it was Harrah's East Chicago (like 6 years ago I think), I had a pit boss tell me that I should have pushed on a hand where the dealer paid me. I disagreed, and he insisted I give back $15 (the amount I was paid). I think they were probably watching me, since it wasn't the first time I was confronted about issues at that casino.

As far as handling the situation myself, I would never correct a dealer error if it is in my favor. Dealers, generally, want the players to win. I've had a couple situations where the hands happened so fast, and the dealer realized his error after the fact, but said that if the cameras caught it, they probably wouldn't do anything about it anyways. This is even more true in a game like Pai Gow Poker where there can be multiple ways to set a hand, and a dealer goes against House Way. The supervisor may correct it, but it would be rare for a camera to catch it and stop payouts mid hand.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

It's just another example of ethics taking a beating inside a casino.

Not at all. Taking money from a dealer mistake is fair.

The casino plays with an advantage. We all know that and we all accept it (no one forces anyone to play at any casino, right?) Actually I think of the hosue edge as the price I pay for entertainment in the form of gambling, and also as the tool that keeps the games fair (ie played by the rules). That's all fine. I don't see myself as being pitted against the casino, though, the way many others do. I see the casino as wanting to make money by providing etnertainment, and myself as willingly paying for such services.

But the money involved does serve as a means to keep score. And it's money, so the better your score against the casino the better off you are. Now, I don't expect to be ahead long or by much. But when the casino makes a mistake, that merely puts us on more even footing for a while.

So I accept the house advantage and I don't see the house as the enemy, but we're rivals and we each take care of our own ends of the tansaction. I'm not responsible for correcting the casino, the casino is not responsible for correcting me, and elt the chips fall where they may, so to speak.

We've beaten this one to death, but maybe someone can answer this---

The casino made a mistake and paid me $10 instead of $5.
1. I report this to the governmental agency responsible for casino oversight. Do they tell me to return $5, or, do they say I am entitled to that money?
I have 6 signed affadavits detailing the error.

2. I report this to the pit boss 1 hour after it occurred. Does he tell me to give him the $5 or does he tell me that I am entitled to that money?
I have the same 6 signed affadavits.

If you want, make the $5 into $500, and does either answer change?

Dealers take my winnings in error pretty often. I suspect that if that happens when i'm distracted by a waitress or just don't see my win then it all balances out in the end. Dealers don't like being corrected so I only do it when it works my favor.

That's it. I've had it with correcting the dealers. Last night, while playing WPT 3x All-in Hold 'Em, I had no less than *three separate* dealers all make errors in my favor. I corrected them each time, and "cost" myself $240. (I was betting $40 a hand). The first time, the dealer missed a straight, and paid the other player on a push. I pointed out his straight, and he thanked me and took my money. Didn't bother to correct the other guy's payout. He didn't seem to care.

I've really had enough. I usually correct because the game is difficult, and if I see the dealer is making an honest mistake and not just being lazy, I will help them out. But it seems they just want to give the house's money away. I'm done taking the high road.

(Some rather bothersome tip hustling, too. But that comes with the territory of a go-your-own place. One dealer kept muttering about "need to help out the baby.")

Quote: teddys

... I pointed out his straight, and he thanked me and took my money. Didn't bother to correct the other guy's payout. He didn't seem to care.

Is it any wonder why players take an "Us vs them" attitude about mistakes?

Quote: teddys

I've really had enough. I usually correct because the game is difficult, and if I see the dealer is making an honest mistake and not just being lazy, I will help them out. But it seems they just want to give the house's money away. I'm done taking the high road.

Welcome to the fold <hug> :)

Seriously, read up-thread where I posted my reasons why each side is responsible for their mistakes.

Having said that, I have corrected dealer msitakes in my favor, too, from time to time. Not all of them, and honestly I couldn't tell you why I did it when I did. I think it's more or less automatic. I've also corrected dealer errors against me, most notably reminding them to pay the ante bonus on 3CP.

If it wasn't for the House Way, it is a matter of skill that the dealer knows how to set his hand in Pai Gow Poker, for example. If a dealer failed to see a straight, no way am I saying anything. To me, this is similar. The dealer just has to get it right, same as other players in a poker game better play their cards right.

However, if the dealer stood on the soft 17 and somehow read my cards as '18' say, as opposed to '15', I would feel compelled to correct that dealer, saying, 'hey, I lost'.

I myself notify the dealer everytime I feel there is a mistake, whether it helps me or hurts me. I have been correct a few times and wrong a few.

They either backup the cards, go to the camera, or both .

A few dealers have said dont worry about it and a few were very thankful that I saved them a writeup.

At my local casinos, this has helped me maintain a good rapport w/ the dealers and PB's, which helps me earn a few more match plays,comps, and basically bet how I want.

I do understand both points a view, but for me, the right thing is the right thing . It could just be, I want GOOD karma at the table, and hoping that next time I have a good bet out, I will catch some good cards. But I do realize one does not really affect the other.

" Enjoy the win " ????


It was not really a win, A win is a win and a loss is a loss, you cannot have one w/o the other .

As we all know losing hands sometimes win and winning hands sometimes lose. Endure the losses and ENJOY the wins !!!