Bankroll and Minimum Table limit questions

Hey, this is my first post on the forums so I'll start off with some probably foolish questions.

-How much should you cash in when you first sit down at a table?
-Would it be better to have a larger spread on a lower limit table (higher house advantage) or smaller spread on a higher limit table (lower house advantage)?

Now I know there are thousands of variables so to eliminate a few hundred or so of them I'll answer a few. I've played bj for a few years but only two or three times a year at some casinos in AC and CT and have done reasonably well (I usually am able to pay for my complete stay and walk away with a few extra bucks). Up until now I've only applied the BS but I've gotten a little more serious and have been practicing the KO counting pretty regularly. I'd like to apply the KO and BS and try my luck. My acceptable bankroll would be a max of $5000-8000 so that would limit me to a max bet of $50-80. Now should I be playing a $5 min 6 deck table with H17, double on any two, no NRA, surrender allowed with a spread of 1-10 OR would it be more advantagous to play a $10 min 6 deck table with s17, double on any two, no RSA, surrender allowed with a spread of 1-5? Also when sitting down at the table how much should I cash in? I ususally started with 500 playing 10-15 min. tables but I'm not sure what is acceptable with a larger bankroll. I don't think it would be particularly wise to attract unnecessary attention from the PB by buying in too high.

Well thanks in advance for your comments?

-Cheers!

The wizard has never weighed in with a rule for minimum bankroll for card counting. I suspect it would be a function of how much spread you want to play. He does say your bankroll will go up and down like a roller coaster in the short run.

The 21 professor says my absolute minimum bankroll for a weekend trip is 200 times my minimum bet. You are obviously talking about 500 to 800 times your minimum bet of $10.

IMHO how much you buy in is not going to attract nearly as much attention as a 1-10 spread. I think you are better off sticking to $25 to $100 bets or you will be backed off pretty quick. Perhaps you should try $10-$40 for your first time, just to see how you do in a real life setting.

El Cortez is the oldest continually operating casino in Las Vegas. It is also the only place in Vegas that has single deck blackjack. They also have some of the oldest pit bosses.

Thanks for the advice paco I'll definally have to try that first but I'm still curious of how much the average player here buys in at say a min. $10 table if their max. bet is say $40-50.

If I were to abide by the rule of thumb and my min. bet was $10, I should have a min. of $2000 bankroll, correct? Should I buy in the whole $2K or do I buy in at say $500 and rebuy if its on the down turn? I'd feel kinda wierd buying in that much on such a low limit table. I'd appreciate it if someone would be able to tell me what the rule of thumb is on this one.

Thanks again!

I would say that a pit boss or floorman would be very suspicious if you buy in for $2,000 and then start playing $10 a hand. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but they would view it as if you are trying to pull a fast one on them and will watch you closely.

I am going to first assume that you are an advantage player. Basically, there is absolutely nothing wrong with reaching into your pocket to pull out more money if you are bad run of cards. Drunken gamblers do it all of the time in an effort to catch up. Remember, you want to look like a loser in the eyes of the pit staff. So if your initial bet is $10, then pull out a couple of hundred and start with that.

I would also suggest learning how to palm chips to make you look like a bigger loser. You don't want to palm a lot, maybe at your level red chip or two every 15 minutes, but putting $20 to $40 an hour into your pocket will make your losses look bigger and hide your wins. Once again, reaching into your wallet for more cash is a good thing in the eyes of the casino.

Personally, I am a craps player, so I am definately not an advantage player. However, I tend to palm about 4 to 6 green chips per hour, regardless of if I am winning or losing. At $100 to $150 per hour of additional losses, I can tell my host at the end of my 40 hours of play how I lost an additional $4,000 to $6,000 in cash, regardless of what my actual win/loss might have been. Casinos love losers, and you want to look and act like one.

I am definitely a different kind of gambler than you, but it seems like you're just here for random opinions so I'll blabber on for a bit. I am a craps player who occasionally plays BJ to mix things up.

Having a spread of 1-10 is probably pretty risky, so for that reason alone I think $10-$50 is a good idea. If the right rules are in place, $25 limit and 1-3 might be better because the difference between one and two greens (at least to me) is much less than a red vs. two greens. Also, at most casinos you should be able to find pretty favorable rules at $25.

How much should you cash in? Depends how you feel about reaching back into your wallet. When I started gambling I absolutely hated it but I've kind of grown into it. This is something only you can get a feeling for - but in your position I'd start at $500 as you do. If you don't want to be holding onto 50-80 hundreds just cash in your bankroll and just pocket the chips.

I'm kind of a suicide gambler, maybe not the best term. I like to go to the craps table with a few hundred and play until I'm wildly successful or go broke. If I go broke, I find something else to do and visit the tables the next day. It seems like you're a person that likes to sit at the table and enjoy himself, so just understand that I'm definitely a different kind of gambler.

Quote: evinswizard

If I were to abide by the rule of thumb and my min. bet was $10, I should have a min. of $2000 bankroll, correct?

I said the minimum should be 200 times, but most counters prefer 500 times.

Howard Moon recommends the unit bet for your case as $25 with $125 being maximum bet if the count is good and $10 being the minimum bet for a bad count. Then you have roughly a 12:1 spread (rounded off), and your bankroll should be a $5000.

I don't think it would be practical to buy more than $500 at a time, since you will only get large denomination chips and be changing them constantly. It's more practical if you are buying $500 to ask for mostly green, and some $5 and $10. If you put down $2000 they will give you a stack of blacks.

If you look at the average daily revenue of a twenty one table, you will probably be surprised. Most people think it is higher. Remember blackjack revenue has basically melted down in this recession. If you are card counting with a 12-1 spread, you are no doubt hoping to come home at least a grand ahead. Your pit boss sees you as someone who has wiped out the revenue from the table for a day or two.

North Las Vegas	$322
Laughlin	$360
Boulder Strip	$461
Downtown LV	$486
The Strip	$1,433

You are finding possible +EV games with a $10 minimum? good job!

I also think you just want to have the Ben Franklins on hand and pull them out when needed, buying in at $300 at most to start if betting initially $10, then pulling out the cash as needed to make larger bets. This is the opposite of what I like to do at a Craps Table, where I like to buy in big. That won't fit for what you will be trying to do.

Quote: gambler

I would also suggest learning how to palm chips to make you look like a bigger loser. You don't want to palm a lot, maybe at your level red chip or two every 15 minutes, but putting $20 to $40 an hour into your pocket will make your losses look bigger and hide your wins. Once again, reaching into your wallet for more cash is a good thing in the eyes of the casino.

Personally, I am a craps player, so I am definately not an advantage player. However, I tend to palm about 4 to 6 green chips per hour, regardless of if I am winning or losing. At $100 to $150 per hour of additional losses, I can tell my host at the end of my 40 hours of play how I lost an additional $4,000 to $6,000 in cash, regardless of what my actual win/loss might have been. Casinos love losers, and you want to look and act like one.

Good advice!

I have been "palming" chips for a whle now. Usually when I make a hundred I'll pull a 25 chip off the table when the PB is on the other side and the dealer is looking the other way.

Another thing I'll do is hide a 25 chip between a stack of 5's if the PB is hawking the table and I don't feel like having a pocket full of chips.

I'm going down on monday to hit some $10 tables and try out these tips.

Thanks.

Short buy is better than overloading. An overload immediately looks suspicious. Buy in for what most nickel players normally buy in for, $100 to $200 tops. Better yet, back count your first table or two. If the count looks nice, buy in for $400 green and start out with your top bet.

Best of luck!