The Anti-basic strategy, or "The worst strategy mistakes people have witnessed thread"
November 26th, 2009 at 12:48:37 PM
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Playing blackjack the other night and watching a guy consistently double his hard 12 vs anything, including 10s and aces, made me think of starting a thread with the worst plays people have seen.
Of course such bad plays do not affect the odds of anyone else's hand in any way. Strangely the people who believe they do seem to complain less about such moves than when I hit my 12 vs a 3.
It also makes me wonder why any casino would ever restrict doubling to hard totals of 9-11. People screw up the soft doubles more often than they get them right, and restricting it to 9 (or 10) to 11 does not allow people to double all those hard 5-8s that they seem to love to do. Not to mention the 12s!
So, send them in! Feel free to post strange superstitions from players as well. As said, this is strictly for entertainment purposes, this is not something that affects an individual player's game.
Of course such bad plays do not affect the odds of anyone else's hand in any way. Strangely the people who believe they do seem to complain less about such moves than when I hit my 12 vs a 3.
It also makes me wonder why any casino would ever restrict doubling to hard totals of 9-11. People screw up the soft doubles more often than they get them right, and restricting it to 9 (or 10) to 11 does not allow people to double all those hard 5-8s that they seem to love to do. Not to mention the 12s!
So, send them in! Feel free to post strange superstitions from players as well. As said, this is strictly for entertainment purposes, this is not something that affects an individual player's game.
November 26th, 2009 at 1:20:19 PM
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It's interesting that the most common "non-traditional" double is on 12 (I see this a lot), and not on the 8, which would be less disadvantageous and in fact is required in the basic strategy for some single-deck games.
I was playing in the high limit room at my local recently and some guy was splitting every non-ten pair against any dealer upcard. That's probably the worst I've seen (and this was high-limit!)
I was playing in the high limit room at my local recently and some guy was splitting every non-ten pair against any dealer upcard. That's probably the worst I've seen (and this was high-limit!)
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
November 26th, 2009 at 1:33:53 PM
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Quote: teddysIt's interesting that the most common "non-traditional" double is on 12 (I see this a lot), and not on the 8, which would be less disadvantageous and in fact is required in the basic strategy for some single-deck games.
I was playing in the high limit room at my local recently and some guy was splitting every non-ten pair against any dealer upcard. That's probably the worst I've seen (and this was high-limit!)
Yeah I really cannot for the life of me figure out the double-on-12 craze. Normally I don't ask people why they do things in BJ, but I was talking to a guy the whole game anyway once so I asked him why he did it. This was on a hard 12 vs a dealer 10, and he told me "It forces me not to hit it again", referring to being dealt a 2-4 or an ace. That was his exact quote, I couldn't believe it. Meanwhile this guy was coaching other players at the table on numerous occasions.
I also had a report from a dealer that they had a highly superstitious man who would STAND on hard totals 11 and under in some circumstances based on some pattern of cards or something.
November 26th, 2009 at 2:10:34 PM
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It's certainly not common but I have seen players double on a blackjack, counting it as an eleven.
November 26th, 2009 at 4:17:24 PM
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Last January at the Bellagio a drunk girl at the end hit a soft 20 (A-9) on an 9. She pulled an A, won the hand, then went and threw up in the bathroom after spilling her beer on her friend.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
November 26th, 2009 at 9:17:45 PM
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Here in the UK we have double any total, split any pair rules. youd be surprised how many times ive seen people double 19 and 20 and suck out ( to use a poker term)
Worst play I have ever seen I have mentioned elsewhere. Had a guy not take any cards on any totals whatsoever. He lost pretty quickly.
Worst play I have ever seen I have mentioned elsewhere. Had a guy not take any cards on any totals whatsoever. He lost pretty quickly.
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November 27th, 2009 at 9:25:33 AM
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Was it a 6:5 table? If so, doubling a soft 21 is not a bad move - depending on the dealer's up card, of course!Quote: marksolbergIt's certainly not common but I have seen players double on a blackjack, counting it as an eleven.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
November 27th, 2009 at 11:20:52 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearWas it a 6:5 table? If so, doubling a soft 21 is not a bad move - depending on the dealer's up card, of course!
That would still be a bad play. The best it gets is is against a six. Assuming six decks, and the dealer stands on soft 17, the expected value doubling on a blackjack is 67% of the bet amount, much less than 120%. source
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 27th, 2009 at 12:23:34 PM
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Quote:Was it a 6:5 table? If so, doubling a soft 21 is not a bad move - depending on the dealer's up card, of course!
No not a 6:5 table. They were on a winning streak and felt they could get more money on the table. Other times they've been intoxicated and thought it was funny to do.
November 27th, 2009 at 1:30:29 PM
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Quote: marksolbergIt's certainly not common but I have seen players double on a blackjack, counting it as an eleven.
Well, the first time I played VP I got dealt a straight after a few hands and thought I'd already won. So I simply pressed the deal button, thinking I was dealing the next hand. I lost that bet (of course).
That's why I play for very low stakes when I'm learning a game.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
November 28th, 2009 at 6:38:44 PM
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Once I saw a couple with a Wizard strategy chart between them, completely ignoring it. :^)
But yeah, I've seen enough stupid play (stiff doubles, treating soft as hard, bad hits, bad stands) at the local casino we play at (Desert Diamond) that I can't play the live tables anymore because even though I know that it doesn't affect my odds, it tilts me way too badly.
But yeah, I've seen enough stupid play (stiff doubles, treating soft as hard, bad hits, bad stands) at the local casino we play at (Desert Diamond) that I can't play the live tables anymore because even though I know that it doesn't affect my odds, it tilts me way too badly.
November 29th, 2009 at 7:09:02 AM
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Quote: wildqatOnce I saw a couple with a Wizard strategy chart between them, completely ignoring it. :^)
Worse than that is not knowing how to read it. I once had a guy bringing a strategy chart to my table. Either he didn't know how to read it or just printed a part of it, because he didn't split any pairs and he would stand with soft totals against my 5s and 6s. I found that a bit odd and even tried to help him to play properly to no avail.
"Six/sixteen."
"Stand."
"Are you sure, sir? Doesn't your chart have an "A,5" entry?"
"Well... Sixteen, Stand"
"*sigh* Very well, sir".
January 26th, 2010 at 1:22:33 PM
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Last time i was at my local casino i witnessed the dumbest display of blackjack that i have ever seen, and probably will ever see.......This old couple 60ish who had no idea what the hell they were doing probably just sat down to play blackjack for the 1st time
To prove my point......they were surrending on hard 18's, surrender 12, 13 that i saw. They stood on any soft hand, didnt matter what the dealer had and rarely split or doubled down, always played the royal match side bet, split 2's against a 9, 3's against an 8 and always took insurance.....
and i believe there reason went something like "O i love insurance, but that double down and split is difficult to understand and it is just awful to do".......yeah i was about ready to get up and leave......but, to top it off a friend of theirs came up and asked what they were doing and said "playing blackjack" and then they said to there friend and i quote "You should learn how to play blackjack, once you learn and know what your doing its a lot of fun"..........think it can't get any worse.....
the old couple from hell, one was on 3rd base and the other was to the right
dont you guys just see that alot people sit down to play blackjack just to play but have no idea what their doing. Why do people do that? its like they dont care to win or atleast try they just want to spend money.
To prove my point......they were surrending on hard 18's, surrender 12, 13 that i saw. They stood on any soft hand, didnt matter what the dealer had and rarely split or doubled down, always played the royal match side bet, split 2's against a 9, 3's against an 8 and always took insurance.....
and i believe there reason went something like "O i love insurance, but that double down and split is difficult to understand and it is just awful to do".......yeah i was about ready to get up and leave......but, to top it off a friend of theirs came up and asked what they were doing and said "playing blackjack" and then they said to there friend and i quote "You should learn how to play blackjack, once you learn and know what your doing its a lot of fun"..........think it can't get any worse.....
the old couple from hell, one was on 3rd base and the other was to the right
dont you guys just see that alot people sit down to play blackjack just to play but have no idea what their doing. Why do people do that? its like they dont care to win or atleast try they just want to spend money.
January 26th, 2010 at 1:41:18 PM
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Quote: DealerJQuote: wildqatOnce I saw a couple with a Wizard strategy chart between them, completely ignoring it. :^)
Worse than that is not knowing how to read it. I once had a guy bringing a strategy chart to my table. Either he didn't know how to read it or just printed a part of it, because he didn't split any pairs and he would stand with soft totals against my 5s and 6s. I found that a bit odd and even tried to help him to play properly to no avail.
"Six/sixteen."
"Stand."
"Are you sure, sir? Doesn't your chart have an "A,5" entry?"
"Well... Sixteen, Stand"
"*sigh* Very well, sir".
Yeah, I've seen that a lot. It's almost like the dealer (if trying to help) would do well to just say SIX. Dealers will say "Six or Sixteen?" and I honestly think that some people think it's a choice that they need to answer..."Oh, yeah, Sixteen...good...that's a high number."
You can change a horrible player into a respectable one by showing them how everything under 17 is exactly the same thing, zero. When they open their eyes to everything under 17 being ZERO, it can help them better understand the game.
January 26th, 2010 at 2:00:06 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 26th, 2010 at 2:15:00 PM
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The worst blackjack I ever saw was a long time ago, in Mississippi. A yuppie couple were alone at a $5 BJ table so I joined them. Worst mistake I ever made. They were "experimenting" and playing by the dealer's rules, so that they hit everything up to 17 and stood on 17 and above. No splitting, no doubling, no decisions about soft or hard hands, and they completely disregarded what the dealer was showing because they "had to hit" every hand until they got at least 17.
I didn't realize what they were doing, and when they told me about their "experiment" it was too late, I was practically broke.
I don't care if they wanted to lose their money, but you'd think that the polite thing to do would be to suspend such idiotic play when someone else sat down.
I didn't realize what they were doing, and when they told me about their "experiment" it was too late, I was practically broke.
I don't care if they wanted to lose their money, but you'd think that the polite thing to do would be to suspend such idiotic play when someone else sat down.
January 26th, 2010 at 2:26:18 PM
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They really didn't have any effect on your Expected Win or Loss, no matter how ignorant they were in their play...and you can do a lot worse than mimic the dealer, trust me! (In fact, the Wizard says mimic the dealer is a house edge of 3.91%, so you could argue that those players were "smarter" than anyone playing Double Zero Roulette!)
January 26th, 2010 at 2:56:37 PM
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Quote: Ibeatyouraces...Some guy was DOUBLING on HARD 15's and 16's vs high deal cards and making all sorts of other bad plays...
I thought I would be the first/only to report seeing someone doubling on hard 16.
At the next table, a lady was playing extremely badly. I only noticed she was making bonehead moves because the dealer kept yelling back to the pit boss, "Double on hard 16!"
I suppose the dealer needed to make the pit aware someone was either...
A) Counting cards
B) Possibly cheating
C) Unbelievably dense
Has anyone else seen/heard a dealer call out questionable blackjack plays to the higher-ups?
-Dween!
January 26th, 2010 at 4:32:06 PM
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Quote: DweenQuote: Ibeatyouraces...Some guy was DOUBLING on HARD 15's and 16's vs high deal cards and making all sorts of other bad plays...
I thought I would be the first/only to report seeing someone doubling on hard 16.
At the next table, a lady was playing extremely badly. I only noticed she was making bonehead moves because the dealer kept yelling back to the pit boss, "Double on hard 16!"
I suppose the dealer needed to make the pit aware someone was either...
A) Counting cards
B) Possibly cheating
C) Unbelievably dense
Has anyone else seen/heard a dealer call out questionable blackjack plays to the higher-ups?
Yes, it happens often, and it really isn't because of the three reasons you offered. It's because if you double 16, or hit 19, or anything really crazy, you could argue that there was "no way" you actually wanted to do that and the dealer CLEARLY misdealt the hand. Since the hand is that crazy, the dealer is covering himself from you saying that it was a dealer error. If everyone in the pit hears that someone is hitting 19, then how is the player going to say it was a mistake and he really wanted to stand? You'd be surprised how many times the dealer will announce the play, and the player will say "Wait, no...oops, I'm sorry, I wanted to stay!" This is another reason for the public declaration; it gives the player one last chance to change their mind.
January 26th, 2010 at 4:54:21 PM
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Quote: CroupierWorst play I have ever seen I have mentioned elsewhere. Had a guy not take any cards on any totals whatsoever. He lost pretty quickly.
This action was observed by Mark from Vegas and he asked the Wizard to calculate the house edge . The Wiz revealed that it was 15.7%. It is interesting to note that there are some slot games with house edges this large.
January 30th, 2010 at 9:43:44 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 30th, 2010 at 1:42:30 PM
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Yes, indeed. I had hard 18 and I somehow "knew" the dealer had 20 and I "knew" the next card would be a 3. Dealer hesitated twice then called out Hitting Hard Eighteen and the Pit Boss made it from the far side of the pit in one bound. Its not that they particuarly care if the players are stupid, its just that anything that is extremely out of the ordinary is to be called out so that supervisors are alerted. It forestalls arguments and it alerts the supervisors to anything out of the ordinary. Supervisors are supposed to know about unusual events, particularly if it results in the player winning. The supervisors are paid to be alert to such things. Doesn't mean the dealer suspects something is wrong, just that the supervisors have a job to do.Quote: DweenHas anyone else heard a dealer call out questionable blackjack plays to the higher-ups?
PitBoss stayed there for two more hands, realized I'm at a low limit table and can't add and then wandered off.
January 30th, 2010 at 3:29:46 PM
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The worst play in blackjack, from a pure EV perspective on a single decision (hit, stand, double, split), is to double on a hard 20 against a dealer 8 as an upcard.
Stand: EV = +0.79 units
Double: EV = -1.70 units
This deviation from basic strategy is worth a net loss of 2.49 units in EV.
Doubling hard 20 against 6, 7 and 9 are close to this, but doubling T-T against the 8 is the worst play.
--Dorothy
Stand: EV = +0.79 units
Double: EV = -1.70 units
This deviation from basic strategy is worth a net loss of 2.49 units in EV.
Doubling hard 20 against 6, 7 and 9 are close to this, but doubling T-T against the 8 is the worst play.
--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
January 30th, 2010 at 4:49:44 PM
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That's also because a 20 against a 8 has the highest expectation of any dealt hand that isn't a blackjack. It's a 79% expectation. I sometimes like to call out "Seventy-nine percent!" when I get this hand. This tends to confuse the dealer and players, so maybe I should stop doing it.
Edit: Another influence of being on this site too much ... I was playing the other day and matched the dealer on a blackjack. I said, "Oh man, that's a 431-1 shot against!" They were kind of impressed ... maybe.
Edit: Another influence of being on this site too much ... I was playing the other day and matched the dealer on a blackjack. I said, "Oh man, that's a 431-1 shot against!" They were kind of impressed ... maybe.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
January 30th, 2010 at 4:57:48 PM
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Quote: teddysI sometimes like to call out "Seventy-nine percent!" when I get this hand.
ROTFLMAO, ETC.
OK, so I'll know it's you the next time I hear that.
--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
January 30th, 2010 at 5:23:10 PM
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Quote: pocketaces]
It also makes me wonder why any casino would ever restrict doubling to hard totals of 9-11. People screw up the soft doubles more often than they get them right, and restricting it to 9 (or 10) to 11 does not allow people to double all those hard 5-8s that they seem to love to do. Not to mention the 12s!
.
Yeah, I've never understood why a casino executive would want to implement a rule prohibiting a customer from doubling down on a hard 15. Either they feel sympathy for the drunks, or guilt for offering the Big 6/8 in craps...
April 7th, 2010 at 11:58:12 PM
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I've seen people stay on 12 or 13 against a face card or an ace, nothing too crazy though. I usually witness guys come to the table, throw all or most of their winnings from other tables on a couple blackjack hands and lose it all with the first deal. Last Sunday this guy came over and bet a black chip on two consecutive losing hands and walked away. Saw quite a bit of that in Reno with tourists trying to act like seasoned pros.
Another guy at the local casino was up on a few great hands and should have walked away with a few thousand but decided to bet max bets of $500 on several hands and lost every single one.
Another guy at the local casino was up on a few great hands and should have walked away with a few thousand but decided to bet max bets of $500 on several hands and lost every single one.
April 8th, 2010 at 5:06:06 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffYes, indeed. I had hard 18 and I somehow "knew" the dealer had 20 and I "knew" the next card would be a 3. Dealer hesitated twice then called out Hitting Hard Eighteen and the Pit Boss made it from the far side of the pit in one bound. Its not that they particuarly care if the players are stupid, its just that anything that is extremely out of the ordinary is to be called out so that supervisors are alerted. It forestalls arguments and it alerts the supervisors to anything out of the ordinary. Supervisors are supposed to know about unusual events, particularly if it results in the player winning. The supervisors are paid to be alert to such things. Doesn't mean the dealer suspects something is wrong, just that the supervisors have a job to do.
the dealers have no quams with showing off an idiot- I remember a guy who would always split 10's- and sometimes hed resplit and when he woudl resplit the dealer (female) woudl yell 4-inches! I nearly choking from laughing at that comment.
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld
