Do you count cards?

Just curious as to how people here fall along the spectrum.

I don't count cards, but I play basic strategy pretty rigorously and seek out the best rules. I also flat bet to make it easier to keep track of my winnings and losings. Am I a net winner on blackjack? No, but I like the challenge. I probably play at too high a level, but I admit I do enjoy the high limit rooms :)

Card counting is probably in my future, but the few times I"ve tried it, I've not particurarly liked it.

From the Wizard's reviews, it seems like he is a high-limit flat bettor but that might be a function of his being the "Best Blackjack Player in the World," which limits his opportunities to count.

Edit: I should have made the fourth option sometimes play basic strategy and sometimes seek out the best rules. I would consider playing mostly basic strategy and not playing 6:5 under this one. Third option is for those that play rigorous basic strategy and only the very best games.

Quote: teddys

Just curious as to how people here fall along the spectrum.

I don't count cards, but I play basic strategy pretty rigorously and seek out the best rules. I also flat bet to make it easier to keep track of my winnings and losings. Am I a net winner on blackjack? No, but I like the challenge. I probably play at too high a level, but I admit I do enjoy the high limit rooms :)

Card counting is probably in my future, but the few times I"ve tried it, I've not particurarly liked it.

From the Wizard's reviews, it seems like he is a high-limit flat bettor but that might be a function of his being the "Best Blackjack Player in the World," which limits his opportunities to count.

First of all, the Wiz is still counting. He is just using the count to adjust his play strategy, but not his bet size. With the best rules, he can still achieve a positive expectation that way. This kind of counting is allowed by the casinos, and in fact, they can't prevent it except by barring the player altogether.

There are varying levels of difficulty in adopting counts. The first baby step is Ace-Five, followed by a simple High-Low. The next step could be a side Ace count, or insurance adjustments. Then you have to decide whether you will use the count just for bet sizing, or for bet sizing AND strategy adjustments. Some counts are better for one than the other. And you can subdivide the strategy adjustments into plus and minus counts; obviously you would learn the plus-count strategy adjustments first.

None of these steps are particularly difficult. But you do have to take them one at a time. A lot of people pick up a book that teaches a multi-level count with strategy adjustments, Ace counts, surrender numbers, 1-8 bet spreads, true count within 1/2 decks, etc. etc., and their brains explode. It's too much for the novice to absorb all at once.

I suggest you try an Ace-Five next time you play. You might find that you're comfortable enough with that that you can move up to a simple High-Low. If not, even the Ace-Five will lower the house edge. The Wiz's site has much very good information about all this, of course.

There aren't enough choices.

I never play 6:5, but I don't necessarily look at the other rules. For example, I can't remember if the dealer hits on soft 17 is good or bad. For that matter, I don't know if the 'S' in 'S17' stands for 'Soft' or 'Stand'.

I play basic strategy, but I have a hard time hitting on 16 - unless the dealer has an Ace.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

There aren't enough choices.

I never play 6:5, but I don't necessarily look at the other rules. For example, I can't remember if the dealer hits on soft 17 is good or bad. For that matter, I don't know if the 'S' in 'S17' stands for 'Soft' or 'Stand'.

I play basic strategy, but I have a hard time hitting on 16 - unless the dealer has an Ace.

S17=Dealer stands on soft 17

It is REALLY bad if the dealer hits soft 17 as it turns her A6 from a wimpy hand into a powerhouse. The effect is -0.20% to the player's expectation, which is HUGE for a single, relatively uncommon dealer's hand.

I hit 16 against a big card cheerfully, because I remember the advice in Lawrence Revere's book: "If I stand, I will not even win one bet in four." (And this is true against any card 7 or higher, not just an Ace.) It's sort of like with two strikes, swinging at a pitch in the strike zone even if you don't think you'll hit it--if you don't swing, you're probably out anyway.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

There aren't enough choices.

I never play 6:5, but I don't necessarily look at the other rules. For example, I can't remember if the dealer hits on soft 17 is good or bad. For that matter, I don't know if the 'S' in 'S17' stands for 'Soft' or 'Stand'.

I play basic strategy, but I have a hard time hitting on 16 - unless the dealer has an Ace.

I should have made the fourth option sometimes play basic strategy and sometimes seek out the best rules. I would consider playing mostly basic strategy and not playing 6:5 under this one. Third option is for those that play rigorous basic strategy and only the best games.

I count sometimes, but not most of the time. I find it boring, and too much like work. I just figure why bother, I have better - more efficient and less boring - ways to make money.
Basic strategy on the other hand is different. I play it instinctively, without any effort. I figure, there must be some people out there who are this way about counting too. I wish, I was like that.

By the way . . .

I don't count cards.

For some reason, when I'm at a BlackJack table, I have a hard time adding two or more single-digit numbers!

I read a book on counting when I was 21 years old on a plane to vegas and have been counting ever since. I use the Uston 3 level count with pitch games and a much simpler one with 6 or 8 decks. Once you've counted cards a lot I think it is very hard to play the game without counting, because you feel like you're playing in the dark.
I really think the whole card counting mystique has made a lot of money for casinos, because most people who try it can't succeed at it, but they feel like they have the advantage so they bet 4x what they usually would. A lot of people see the infuriatingly ridiculous examples of card counting in movies like Rain Man and 21 and think this is a good representation of the card counting experience. Anyway, card counting bankroll swings are huuuuge, and I think there is higher profit potential with a more stable income at live poker these days.

Quote: clarkacal

A lot of people see the infuriatingly ridiculous examples of card counting in movies like Rain Man and 21 and think this is a good representation of the card counting experience.

Even on that TV show about casino cheaters a few years ago, they portrayed Ed Thorp getting kicked out of every casino in Reno the first and only time he played for real, thats how powerful card counting is supposed to be. Its totally ridiculous, but the truth is boring and who wants to see that in a TV drama.

Learning how to count isn't really difficult. Just as long as you don't jump straight from Simplified Strategy to Zen or HO2. A-5 is a nice enhancement to basic strategy, as it requires very little effort, though the return is similarly minor.

The hard parts are keeping correct count at a live table, not giving yourself away, and finally following the count. The latter is particularly an issue. Card-counting involves major swings, and there isn't even any guarantee you'll come out ahead at the end. Or even a strong probability. You might or you might not, the former is more likely, but that's it.

Seriously, in modern environment, blackjack card-counting is about the most lousy way to make money with your brain. On the up side, it's simple. On the down side, it offers low reward, as even if you have the bankroll to sustain high stakes, you're likely to get booted out, involves risking massive amounts of money, and doesn't offer any growth opportunities.

If you just have to make money at card games, there is poker - there is a lot more to learn, but the swings are much lower, even at NLH, the rewards much sweeter, and if you're good, you might very well reach the lucrative pro level. If it's not about kings, queens and jacks, there is stock, futures and commodity trading. Not all that different from gambling, except the long-term advantage is on your side, and all the systems and pattern analyzes you might be making actually do matter. The skills required are quite similar to those in card-counting: math, patience, willpower, and the ability to stick to the plan. As glamorized as it might be, card-counting as a way of life is a dead end, serious poker is a major step forward, and trading is where actual growth and opportunities are.

Quote: P90

As glamorized as it might be, card-counting as a way of life is a dead end, serious poker is a major step forward, and trading is where actual growth and opportunities are.

I think that's where Thorpe, the original card coutner, wound up.

Quote: EvenBob

Even on that TV show about casino cheaters a few years ago, they portrayed Ed Thorp getting kicked out of every casino in Reno the first and only time he played for real, thats how powerful card counting is supposed to be. Its totally ridiculous, but the truth is boring and who wants to see that in a TV drama.

Actually, Thorp's book does pretty much relate exactly that happening to him (Reno/Tahoe). He wasn't even trying to camouflage, and eventually the casinos started calling each other and passing around photos.

Quote: mkl654321

Actually, Thorp's book does pretty much relate exactly that happening to him (Reno/Tahoe). He wasn't even trying to camouflage, and eventually the casinos started calling each other and passing around photos.

Its baloney. I counted cards for years (30) and to have that kind of winning streak the first time you try it, and get kicked out without the casino even looking for counters in 1961, didn't happen. Am I saying Thorp embellished? You bet. Its so ridiculous its laughable.

Quote: EvenBob

Its baloney. I counted cards for years (30) and to have that kind of winning streak the first time you try it, and get kicked out without the casino even looking for counters in 1961, didn't happen. Am I saying Thorp embellished? You bet. Its so ridiculous its laughable.

No one knows one way or the other, except Thorp himself. And they wouldn't have kicked him out for counting, I agree--they would have kicked him out for winning.

Quote: mkl654321

No one knows one way or the other, except Thorp himself. And they wouldn't have kicked him out for counting, I agree--they would have kicked him out for winning.

But thats just it, he didn't win that much. And they keep winners around, its the only way to get their money back. They would have thought he was just lucky and they would have waited for his luck to change.

Quote: teddys

I don't count cards, but I play basic strategy pretty rigorously and seek out the best rules. I also flat bet to make it easier to keep track of my winnings and losings. Am I a net winner on blackjack? No, but I like the challenge. I probably play at too high a level, but I admit I do enjoy the high limit rooms :)

Card counting is probably in my future, but the few times I"ve tried it, I've not particurarly liked it.

If you don't like it, my suggestion is don't do it. Card counting definately helps IF you can do it right, but it is an extraordinary amount of extra work for what I coinsider to be very minimal return. You seem to gamble for enjoyment rather than to fill your coffers and I believe counting would take a big chunk of your purpose away.

You do however say you enjoy the challenge, and if the challenge it what gets you off, or your the type that enjoy's 'screwing the man' (no insult intended, I just don't have another way to say it), then maybe it couldn't hurt to give it a try. Learning to count is no different than BS. It can be quite difficult at first, but once you get it its almost second nature. If you counted down a deck, or two, or eight, for a half hour every day, you'd probably be pretty solid within a month.

If the challenge is your goal, you can count while flat betting your normal amount and only making the obvious, high percentage deviations. Chances are you can still play the same amount of time with your bankroll and have your money fluctuations remain about the same as straight BS. There's still a chance that every deviation you make will go against you, but theres also the chance that most will go for you. It'll add a tiny bit to your bankroll while giving you they 'hey, I got 'em!, I did it!' feeling.

On the other hand, if you're looking for a significant increase in bankroll, please take my and any other informed persons advice and stop those thoughts immediately. Card counting, even the most complex, max return, ridiculously intense system can not guarantee success, and too many people either piss away their entire bankroll in an hour, or destroy any and all enjoyment from the game for themselves. Remembering a high level count system (at least hi-opt 2), the proper deviations based on true count (illustrious 18 and others), the all important money management, perfect strategy, on top of the music, dealer chatter, annoying patrons, attractive waitresses, dinging slot j/p's.....Imagine the top 10 cinematic car chases in history. Lay them end to end in a line, put your wife, kid, loved ones in your car, and blast through all ten with no brakes and a stuck accelerator. Exciting in thought, maddeningly stressful in practice.

So, if you want just a little more challenge, go ahead. I think its fun and am aware it'll amount to no more than the practice of clipping a coupon. It'll either save me a little percentage of the overall if done right, or it'll cause me to buy the name brand product when I could've got the generic, non coupon stuff just a lil cheaper and ended up costing me a tiny bit. I took a chance, and regardless of outcome it didn't break me. Any thoughts of grand success are misguided.

deleted

P90 has it right. Thorp made his real money as hedge fund manager. I work in finance and have met tons of good poker players but their poker winnings is pocket change compared to earnings from work.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I still count today but most of my focus has gone to hole-carding carnival games where the player can gan edges of way over 50% per hand and alot less heat.

So you always make sure you sit at first base in these games or it depends on the games?

I don't count but that is because casinos near me use automatic shufflers. I am happy to flat bet using basic strategy and sometime win sometimes lose.

For the record in 72 hours of play since I memorised basic strategy and started to keep track of my spending I am up 0.90% vs a -0.60% house edge game, which is almost exactly how much I've spent tipping the dealers. I fully expect this run of luck to end soon though.

How much do you reduce HE by counting?

Quote: Yoyomama

How much do you reduce HE by counting?

You don't reduce it; you reverse it. Counters can get close to a 2% advantage over the long haul with best conditions and an optimal bet spread.

Quote: teddys

You don't reduce it; you reverse it. Counters can get close to a 2% advantage over the long haul with best conditions and an optimal bet spread.

There is no chance at ever getting a 2% edge realistically. Unless you can find a SD game, liberal rules, end play down to last card, and no upper limit to your spread. Even in the best of times Revere and Uston set the maximum return with perfect play at 1.5% max.
Not even the world's best BJ player, George, ever exceed 1.5% long term.