A vent and questions

This has never happened to me at a Blackjack table. I was at the Rampart Casino in Las Vegas, sitting at a $5 table. I sit down with $100 worth of chips. I'm up as much as $20 at one point and down $70 at another point. I end up breaking even by the time I walk.

Anyway, a few hands after I sit down, a group of friends sits down at the table with me. I'm at first base. The guy from this group of friends that is at third base is betting $25 to $50 per hand. These people obviously don't know how to play. This doesn't bother me, as it's their money, so they can play how they want. However, they're the type of people that when it's their turn to act, they will just stare at their hand for 10 seconds. And then look up questioningly at the dealer. And the dealer is giving them advice on how to play, but he obviously doesn't know basic strategy either, as he's not always giving them correct advice. This is fine. I don't care if you ask the dealer for advice. Just act as quickly as possible. There's nothing to think about.

Anyway, about a little more than half way through the second shoe with these people, third base is betting $100 on this one hand. He gets a 15 against the dealer's king. This is where things get a little interesting. I'm betting $10 per hand at this point and get a 21 (not a BJ). It gets over to third base, and he *literally* take 10 minutes to make a decision. And I don't mean he's just sitting there thinking. He's being loud and boisterous (though not drunk). The dealer isn't pushing him along but rather playing around with him. 5 minutes in the guy finally makes a decision, but the dealer talks him out of it and tells him to think longer. (????!!!!!) Then the pit boss comes over and starts playing around with this guy, too. She even asks another person in third base's group for a quarter so they could flip it to help make a decision.

I wanted to say something about "let's start playing," or even something like "hey, if we're not going to play, give me my bet back," but with a guaranteed non-loser, I kept my mouth shut. Not that the casino *would* have given me my bet back, but I kept my mouth shut because of my hand. I understand these people are losing more than me, so the casino wants to cater to them. But if you're going to let them take as long as they want to make a decision, then open up another $5 table for someone like me.

Anyway, the guy stays, and the dealer turns over a 3. Before the dealer turns over the next card, I said a quick prayer in my head that the next card would be a 6, and you guessed it, it *was* a 6. Third base would have had 21. So the dealer beats third base, which was his last $100. He leaves, though the rest of his group stays.

As bad as this one hand was to put up with (10 minutes!!!), what happened next shocked the hell out of me. The remaining group at the table remarks how bad this shoe is (though I'm up about $20 on it). The dealer grabs the shoe, puts it in the middle of the table, and says to me, "I'm going to reshuffle." I look down at the shoe, and there's about half left. I say to him, "There's still half a shoe left." He says to me, "It's a bad shoe. Are you ok if I reshuffle?" So I say, "I just got done waiting 10 minutes for that guy to make a decision on one hand, and now you want me to wait more for you to reshuffle? Let's just play the rest of the shoe."

So the remaining group sit out, while I'm heads up with the dealer. And I end up getting back up to my original $100 (breaking even) by the end of the shoe. So I walk.

So my questions...

1. Short of being a dick, what can I do if someone is taking too long to make a decision at a table, and the dealer and even the pit boss are egging this guy on to take a long time?

2. I've been playing blackjack in casinos for 13 years. I've *never* heard a dealer ask if he can reshuffle a shoe right in the middle of the shoe. Is this something that's allowed?

1 - Be a dick. It's your time & money too. The pit boss probably should have been encouraging faster play anyway. Sure they want the big gamblers to lose, but they are also more concerned with hands per hour.

2 - I've never seen it, but they CAN reshuffle if they want to. However, it's usually only when a suspected card counter is at the table and/or the shoe favors the counter. Asking you if it's OK is shocking. Of course saying you want to play it out is the right thing to do. Good for you.

This goes to show that players who bet more have a greater say in the flow of the game. So if a $100 bettor wants to take 10 minutes to make a decision, they are not going to listen very much to a red chip bettor who opposes it. Not to defend the practice, but that is just how it is. Money talks, like it or not.

About the shoe, I think if every player at the table agrees then they can shuffle early. This is seldom done, and generally you need to be a good player to initiate the request. It was rather rude to put you on the spot to agree. However, I think they were trying to coddle the $100 player, at the expense of making you mad.

In your shoes I would have told the supervisor that I'm moving to another table after two minutes of waiting for the slow player. I would have asked the supervisor to bring me the money if I won, which I'm sure he would have been happy to do.

Generally I find the Rampart tries to have a fun atmosphere and the supervisors are quite friendly. However, as this case shows, what makes one player happy may make another mad.

How 'bout this:

I may have taken another approach and asked the Supervisor
about getting a restaurant comp. But the success of that may
have been dependent on how long you had been playing, and
what kind of mood the "boss" was in.

Now, off on a tangent:

Years ago I found a VP machine at Flamingo that had the
wrong glass on it, saying the game was played with a 52
card deck plus a joker.

I played a few hands until I was sure it was wrong, and
then told one of the slot supervisors, who at first was
acting as if I was taking up his valuable time. I told him
I would appreciate a comp for the buffet and he gave
me one. I think he should have offered one without me
having to ask.

You didn't say so I wouold ask how busy the place was. If it wasn't very busy my guess is the pit boss was bored and wnated to mess with the player a little bit. I would say a dealer not knowing basic strategy was strange but over the past year or so I have learned better on that one. From dealing the casino parties I can say that about 2/3 of the players refuse to believe when a dealer is giving them a correct play so after some time that burns a dealer out. Though if you work for tips giving bad advice is pretty stupid.

Good for you making them finish the shoe. Though I would say preferential shuffling is allowed. As to question #1? All you can do is go with the flow or take your business elsewhere. I would be glad for the free 10 mins of play time for comps and at the same time be enjoying watching an idiot lose.

On that hand I was once in a poker room with two guys who were really not that good. I lost my stack on a guy sucking out 2 pair on the river so went to play BJ and then craps. At the BJ table the same two guys showed up. They were not there long. Having a beer with my buddy later we were discussing players and he said they were not good pokjer players. I said they didn't know BJ either. At least they were not jerks, just not good players. Don't tap on the aquarium.

Unless one is counting cards, the slower the game the slower you lose, so for me I love it when this kind of thing happens! Most of the time the game is moving so fast .... I am surprised at your experience, since in many places the dealers are rated on how fast they can deal the game. More hands per hour, more money for the casino!

True, but that doesn't mean someone wants the frustration and annoyance. Its like getting a long red light while you are on the way to pay your income taxes. You like some delay, but not too much.

Quote: AZDuffman

I would say a dealer not knowing basic strategy was strange but over the past year or so I have learned better on that one.

Come to the UK. Most dealers here learn basic strategy by being told it by the players. There are so many perversions of "The Book" its untrue. However, we are told we are not supposed to offer advice to the player even if asked. Doesnt stop me, because I get round it by not telling them what to do, but telling them what I would do in their situation. Circumvents the rules nicely, plus I am a good enough dealer that as long as the hands keep flowing without mistakes the bosses let me have the run of the table.

As to the time question, here the pit boss would come over after a couple of minutes and ask for a decision, and would state "If you do not make a decsion in the next 2 minutes, then you will be taken as standing on your hand" Its happened before. It was taken all the way to the UK Gaming commision, which ruled that by giving the player a reasonable time to answer and the consequences of not giving a verbal answer or hand signal, complied with regs. The player was a fairly big player (for our place) who one day refused to give any signals. He was well known for various shenaigans.

Quote: Croupier

Come to the UK. Most dealers here learn basic strategy by being told it by the players. There are so many perversions of "The Book" its untrue. However, we are told we are not supposed to offer advice to the player even if asked. Doesnt stop me, because I get round it by not telling them what to do, but telling them what I would do in their situation. Circumvents the rules nicely, plus I am a good enough dealer that as long as the hands keep flowing without mistakes the bosses let me have the run of the table.

At the parties it is obviously far more lax so I say, "the book says to do 'x'." When pressed I reply. "the guy who wrote the book also invented the hedge fund and the guy is a billionare." When that doesn't work I let them stand on their 15 since i get paid no matter what and at that point I am cutting player enjoyment.

Of course there are the college-orientation parties, which I might well refuse next year. Some of the girls there are so ditzy (and it is *always* women who can never understand the game) that I have a few times just played their hand when they decided they would rather chat. I have wondered how some got into college in the first place.

OTOH, once we had a roomful of engineers. Told them BS one time for each concept. They sort of nodded with a blank look on their face, then made zero errors and questioned it zero times if it was something more complicated I had to explain (eg: splits.) I loved those guys. Clearly they knew the math was sound even if they never worked the problem before.

As for your decision of whether to make this an issue, I'd say it's purely personal preference. Short of flipping the table or peeing on the guys leg, you've every right to make as big (or little) a fuss as you please. It just depends on your personality. Would it cause you more discomfort to sit in silence as you have your experience ruined, or to raise a fuss to get your way and possibly have people thinking ill of you? I personally think even 30 seconds is too much time to contemplate a hand of a game as simple as BJ, and 10 minutes would have sent me through the rafters, but I probably would have dealt with that hand/shoe and moved tables (or left BJ, or left the casino entirely). But that's me. I have a bad temper and try to keep it buried as deep as possible. Raising a stink that may cause the jerk to spout nonsense might cause me to engage in fisticuffs, and jail is worse that slow Table Games. If I had the ability to call out someone for a breach of etiquette and remain calm if he became a jerk about it, I'd probably call him out on it. As said, you are free to act as your personality deems appropriate (within the law, of course).

For the mid-shoe shuffle, I can only speak for my establishment's Table Games Procedural Manual which states a shuffle other than that which takes place at the end of a shoe can only be declared by a Pit Manager or above. The only instances I have ever seen a mid-shoe shuffle put into action is due to a major drink spill where either the discard rack or the shoe itself is filled with an errant adult beverage, or in the case of a suspected card counter where the Pit Manager will randomly step in and call for a shuffle. The manual even specifically states that neither Dealers, Players or even a Floor Supervisor may call for a shuffle. Of course, these rules aren't held up by anything as serious as the State/Nation Gaming Compact, so I imagine they could be broken with only mild repercussions as a result, most likely a verbal warning if anything at all. Do I believe it was wrong? Yes. Bad customer service? Yes. Catering to a high dollar patron? Probably. Unfortunately for you, it falls low enough on the scale of infractions that your only recourse, other than a complaint to management which probably wouldn't improve your experience and would result in only minimal change, is to speak the only language that is understood and take your money elsewhere.