Most online BJ game is not fair!
After sometimes, I prefer the virtual dealer, because it's so much faster compared to the live one and you can pause and continue a hand whenever you like.
What I've experience is most of these games, even with reputable providers... doesn't really provide authentic playing experience.
Most of the time, the very first few hands you'll get a lots of wins... but after 50+ or more, the game algorithm start to sucking you dry.
I'm a beginner BJ player, but I feel that I can differentiate between variants / bad luck or just complete scam.
As most of BJ online games with virtual dealer, we cannot prove the dealer will get the next card out of the shoe.
As we like to think that we're winning coz we're so great... but it's not. You win if the game dealer let you wins.
I write this thread after trying Playtech quantum blackjack (virtual dealer).
Before that I experience: evolution first person blackjack is also rigged. There's no way the dealer have tens and aces like 80% all the time.
Also already tried pragmatic bj, red dog,netent, playngo almost all provider bj with real money (except microgaming coz my location not in approve list?).
I felt most of these games treating Blackjack game like slot machine. And will give you wins at first to hook you up and think the game is fair (coz i'm winning!)
But after that almost impossible to win (unless you agree to accept long losses and give up all your wins that they gave first then the algorithm will start giving you some wins back, but never too much.. only enough to keep you playing and hoping).
Anybody have the same experience? Also any regulated BJ online games that guarantee the dealer's card is completely random from the shoe?
Thanks
Quote: keiko
What I've experience is most of these games, even with reputable providers... doesn't really provide authentic playing experience.
Most of the time, the very first few hands you'll get a lots of wins... but after 50+ or more, the game algorithm start to sucking you dry.
If that is the case just make big bets on the early hands and then quit.
As I try playtech BJ in new casino, I'm considered as new user with evolution BJ at this casino. If go back to my other casino and play these evo*scammer* blackjack... everytime face dealer.. tens, and aces 70%+ all the time.
Apart from that I do believe these "hook new user" algorithm have some upper limit for wins and won't be that easy to be exploited. I'm only up about $10-$20 in playtech quantum BJ before they started to suck me dry... slowly but sure. Most of the "other" BJ games also will go easy on you the very first time... but not for so long....
I know this sound crazy, but I too have experienced the same "new player win algorithm"Quote: DRichQuote: keiko
What I've experience is most of these games, even with reputable providers... doesn't really provide authentic playing experience.
Most of the time, the very first few hands you'll get a lots of wins... but after 50+ or more, the game algorithm start to sucking you dry.
If that is the case just make big bets on the early hands and then quit.
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At first, I just chalked it up to confirmation bias, but after experiencing it on many occasions I was convinced.
At some point, I told my friend/fellow AP to sign up and make an account. I said nothing about my theory to him I just gave him paramotors to stay within. As far as he was concerned he was just getting a loss rebate.
After he played.... I asked him if he noticed anything, and sure enough, he was convinced it was gaffed in his favor.
IIRC Romes independently noticed the same thing at the same casino.
Sounds like the Golden Goose right? Well, not really. In my experience, your betting range had to be small in the $1-$7 range.
It seems your profit before take-down mode kicked in was around $170. This was before the world of BitCoin and there are lots of hoops one would have to jump through in order to make an account, deposit cash out, etc. If one has the knowledge/ability and is willing to do all that for $170 there are way better opportunities to be had.
Most places want Full KYC documents nowadays, including a selfie holding your ID.
But who knows, perhaps someone has figured out how to really ramp up and exploit the situation on a bigger scale(It's very possible), if so, they probably know it's best to keep their mouth shut and just keep banking the money.
I didn't understand what your point was?Quote: rainmanI have millions in coin in on various software, I have run a betting system within the millions of coin in (Flat bet x X # of losses increase to x) it's very telling. I didn't request and analyze the logs I felt no need.
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Quote: AxelWolfI didn't understand what your point was?Quote: rainmanI have millions in coin in on various software, I have run a betting system within the millions of coin in (Flat bet x X # of losses increase to x) it's very telling. I didn't request and analyze the logs I felt no need.
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if there was no point then it was to distract and waste your time
I highly doubt that since most of his posts are credible.Quote: heatmapQuote: AxelWolfI didn't understand what your point was?Quote: rainmanI have millions in coin in on various software, I have run a betting system within the millions of coin in (Flat bet x X # of losses increase to x) it's very telling. I didn't request and analyze the logs I felt no need.
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if there was no point then it was to distract and waste your time
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Quote: AxelWolfI highly doubt that since most of his posts are credible.Quote: heatmapQuote: AxelWolfI didn't understand what your point was?Quote: rainmanI have millions in coin in on various software, I have run a betting system within the millions of coin in (Flat bet x X # of losses increase to x) it's very telling. I didn't request and analyze the logs I felt no need.
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if there was no point then it was to distract and waste your time
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i don't wanna believe you but i will for now
Quote: AxelWolfI didn't understand what your point was?Quote: rainmanI have millions in coin in on various software, I have run a betting system within the millions of coin in (Flat bet x X # of losses increase to x) it's very telling. I didn't request and analyze the logs I felt no need.
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I have extensive play in online BJ I flat bet 1 dollar. After x losses I bet 25 to see the disparity in win rate I also used a 1-10 the results
are so blatantly obvious at many I don't feel the need to request the logs and have them analyzed.
My point is to express my opinion about Gaffing of online BJ to those that can read between the lines.
I also have Gigs of video.
Quote: heatmapQuote: AxelWolfI didn't understand what your point was?Quote: rainmanI have millions in coin in on various software, I have run a betting system within the millions of coin in (Flat bet x X # of losses increase to x) it's very telling. I didn't request and analyze the logs I felt no need.
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if there was no point then it was to distract and waste your time
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I have great command verbally and I can simply win arguments by the sure speed at which I am able to process and articulate.
However I have a glitch. If I have to type which slows my thought process it is very difficult for me to get the thoughts out sometimes
it can get pretty convoluted.
FYI, I have the same feeling with online poker with virtual dealer as well (casino holdem, caribbean poker)
And my problem is not the "new player" hook. But becoz after that, the game is practically unbeatable.
If I win or push 1 or 2 times after 4-5 losses, it's just coz the algorithm let me win.
Is there anything you guys (all of u in US) can do a about this. Like class action lawsuit or whatevs.
Also, to inform have another type which is "never let player win", this happens on some providers.
Even if you are new user, the application won't just let you win. The best case is push.
Notice when I raise my bets, the hands won percentage drops. This is just the latest session I'm working on but this thread made me aware of diminishing returns for higher bets. With $40K in total bets, I might get $67 of food though on a Player's Card.
My session was $1,000 for a 25 bet buy-in. If after 400+ hands I get to $1,000 ahead, I'll cash-out and take a session win. If I'm $5,000 ahead, I have the option to keep playing, but I'll stop when I fall to a $2,000 balance. It kind of depends on how far behind I am on my bankroll. I suspect I'll need that $5,000 profit for 5 more session buy-ins. I have come back from a last bet situation to a winning session several times.
I finished the session as a loss, but check out these losing streaks! The Dealer had big winning streaks that far outstripped mine. I suppose a surrender is a Dealer win.
Makes sense, and I TOTALLY agree. I have done the same experiments with the same blatant big-bet gaffed results.Quote: rainmanQuote: AxelWolfI didn't understand what your point was?Quote: rainmanI have millions in coin in on various software, I have run a betting system within the millions of coin in (Flat bet x X # of losses increase to x) it's very telling. I didn't request and analyze the logs I felt no need.
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I have extensive play in online BJ I flat bet 1 dollar. After x losses I bet 25 to see the disparity in win rate I also used a 1-10 the results
are so blatantly obvious at many I don't feel the need to request the logs and have them analyzed.
My point is to express my opinion about Gaffing of online BJ to those that can read between the lines.
I also have Gigs of video.
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My biggest losses and longest losing hand streaks have been online playing gaffed software.
Luckily, I first made that money from those casinos prior to that and made it back in spades following.
Gaffed software can also be your friend.
There's a big difference between United States state-regulated online casinos and Offshore joints.Quote: keikoand then? can you share your findings about these online games? is it worth it to bet big after string of losses in small bet?
FYI, I have the same feeling with online poker with virtual dealer as well (casino holdem, caribbean poker)
And my problem is not the "new player" hook. But becoz after that, the game is practically unbeatable.
If I win or push 1 or 2 times after 4-5 losses, it's just coz the algorithm let me win.
Is there anything you guys (all of u in US) can do a about this. Like class action lawsuit or whatevs.
Also, to inform have another type which is "never let player win", this happens on some providers.
Even if you are new user, the application won't just let you win. The best case is push.
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for the most part, I trust state-regulated online casinos. However, I wouldn't be shocked to find out if something was gaffed. It has and will happen to even the best-regulated jurisdictions.
I haven't any clue if one could successfully sue some place in Curacao. Players have been screwed out of large sums of money from places licensed in places like that and I have yet to hear about any successful lawsuits.
I don't think it's likely you'll find a situation where betting big after a string of small losses will work. I think you're more than likely to run into a situation where you'll lose on the bigger bets.
FYI not ALL online software is rigged.
I’ve thought about how I’d do it. Allow X number of fair results and then have 1 gaffed hand where whatever the dealer has he draws to 1 more than you. If X is 50 it just adds a few percent to the house edge and would generally be undetectable to the player. Losing 54 hands instead of 52 out of 100 isn’t easy to sniff out.
Many other simple ways to do it.
Quote: SOOPOOSummary. For all you know there is a guy smoking a cigar watching you play, and he just pushes a button to send you the card he wants you to have on an online casino blackjack game.
I’ve thought about how I’d do it. Allow X number of fair results and then have 1 gaffed hand where whatever the dealer has he draws to 1 more than you. If X is 50 it just adds a few percent to the house edge and would generally be undetectable to the player. Losing 54 hands instead of 52 out of 100 isn’t easy to sniff out.
Many other simple ways to do it.
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There are so many ways to skim off an extra 2% that would likely never be noticed. Most operators, just like gamblers, just get too greedy and want it all now.
Quote: DRichQuote: SOOPOOSummary. For all you know there is a guy smoking a cigar watching you play, and he just pushes a button to send you the card he wants you to have on an online casino blackjack game.
I’ve thought about how I’d do it. Allow X number of fair results and then have 1 gaffed hand where whatever the dealer has he draws to 1 more than you. If X is 50 it just adds a few percent to the house edge and would generally be undetectable to the player. Losing 54 hands instead of 52 out of 100 isn’t easy to sniff out.
Many other simple ways to do it.
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There are so many ways to skim off an extra 2% that would likely never be noticed. Most operators, just like gamblers, just get too greedy and want it all now.
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Can you describe said techniques?
Quote: heatmapQuote: DRichQuote: SOOPOOSummary. For all you know there is a guy smoking a cigar watching you play, and he just pushes a button to send you the card he wants you to have on an online casino blackjack game.
I’ve thought about how I’d do it. Allow X number of fair results and then have 1 gaffed hand where whatever the dealer has he draws to 1 more than you. If X is 50 it just adds a few percent to the house edge and would generally be undetectable to the player. Losing 54 hands instead of 52 out of 100 isn’t easy to sniff out.
Many other simple ways to do it.
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There are infinite ways it can be done.
Every 20th hand start the player with a 5 bypassing the RNG.
Eliminate 3’s if a player splits 8’s.
Every 10th ace the player gets given a 5 as next card.
I can go on and on and on and…
There are so many ways to skim off an extra 2% that would likely never be noticed. Most operators, just like gamblers, just get too greedy and want it all now.
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Can you describe said techniques?
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Hi keiko, and welcome to the forums. This very thread you made with this topic has been made and discussed hundreds of times just on this forum alone (let alone other forums). It comes down to this:Quote: keikoI'm bit new to blackjack, after lotsa reading I try playing blackjack in live dealer, and table games as well.
After sometimes, I prefer the virtual dealer, because it's so much faster compared to the live one and you can pause and continue a hand whenever you like.
What I've experience is most of these games, even with reputable providers... doesn't really provide authentic playing experience.
Most of the time, the very first few hands you'll get a lots of wins... but after 50+ or more, the game algorithm start to sucking you dry.
I'm a beginner BJ player, but I feel that I can differentiate between variants / bad luck or just complete scam.
As most of BJ online games with virtual dealer, we cannot prove the dealer will get the next card out of the shoe.
As we like to think that we're winning coz we're so great... but it's not. You win if the game dealer let you wins.
I write this thread after trying Playtech quantum blackjack (virtual dealer).
Before that I experience: evolution first person blackjack is also rigged. There's no way the dealer have tens and aces like 80% all the time.
Also already tried pragmatic bj, red dog,netent, playngo almost all provider bj with real money (except microgaming coz my location not in approve list?).
I felt most of these games treating Blackjack game like slot machine. And will give you wins at first to hook you up and think the game is fair (coz i'm winning!)
But after that almost impossible to win (unless you agree to accept long losses and give up all your wins that they gave first then the algorithm will start giving you some wins back, but never too much.. only enough to keep you playing and hoping).
Anybody have the same experience? Also any regulated BJ online games that guarantee the dealer's card is completely random from the shoe?
Thanks
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You have to video record every hand and prove to us, MATHEMATICALLY, that the game is not fair. To just simply say "I can feel it" after saying "I'm a newer player" just doesn't cut it. N0 is generally like 50,000 hands and everything that happens up till then is variance, so how can you even possibly "feel it" over the course of 50 hands, or a couple hundred hands even? We believe facts, so you must present us with facts. The Wizard has blackjack house edge calculators for every time of rule set. It has the win/loss/push probabilities, etc. Show us something that doesn't mathematically make sense over a LARGE sampling size (I would assume 10k-20k hands MINIMUM). Yes, it takes a LOT of work to do this, but if you're sure, not only can you prove it but if you do with facts and math the provider will get destroyed and most certainly go under. So, go get us some facts...
What I can say is that a few months ago I compared results at several sites. Many give you your coin in figures. While I was surprised that most of the time the return was around 99.2% and not way lower, what was interesting is that several sites are sister sites of one another. All of the figures were surprisingly similar across all the related sites. One group that I had suspected was decent had the best returns across the board. Another group of 3 each had returns of about 97%(3-5x the house edge). This was on over $500k coin in at each site. Certainly not a scientific sample size but all three were the worst of all of them? Also the same game is often played on different sites but with different results.
Bottom line is say what you want all you can do in the end is either play or not play. For me, I keep leaning more and more to stop playing.
If I lose 0.5%, that'd be a $25K loss.
If I lose 1%, it'd be a $50K loss.
If I lose 1.5%, it'd be a $75K loss.
If I lose 3%, it'd be a $150K loss.
I'd hope I'd beat this game and be up over $1 million with a 20% win rate.
How's about we compare the outcomes of winnings/losses of smaller sized samples to a BJ simulator which we can directly verify as truly random (and therefore fair). If the returns or losses of our simulation are consistently more favourable to the player, that'd be sufficient grounds for making an accusation? I personally believe the gamblers who claim they're rigged.
For example, try this simulator. My experience is that the outcomes are truly random here unrelated to bet size, unlike the RNG games, which will almost certainly result in a loss if you significantly increased the bet. Scaling up your bets do seem to reduce the likelihood of a win.
wizardofodds.com/play/blackjack-v2
We must assume there is every incentive for casinos to cheat, which is directly proportional to the potential winnings or losses of a particular round. Only new players seem to ever win decent amounts. But from then on, it almost guaranteed to go south.
If something claims to have an RTP approx. 96%, how is it then gamblers manage to lose whatever bankroll all so quickly with almost certain probability. Telling people not to gamble if they believe something is rigged is not only patronizing but also serves to ensure the continuation of malpractice and outright deception.
You will get statistically meaningful results much quicker if you look at the count of the card coming off the deck at each point. In situations where a ten helps you, do you get a ten 4 times out of 13? When you have a hard 12-16, do you get a ten four times out of 13? The same logic can be applied to the dealers hit cards. You can also apply the same test to your hole cards. These statistics will converge much faster than your overall return will converge to the expected value. Also, if you make a lot of mistakes, your results should never match the optimal return.Quote: covid19With all due respect, it's clearly impractical for most to gather enough sampled data to claim anything at all, which is precisely what's being capitalized on. I understand the odds are not in favour of players, but then if you play with any of these RNG based blackjack games, you will certainly notice anomalies far too frequently and consistently. There must be a way of "proving" this statistically without using an infeasible sample size.
How's about we compare the outcomes of winnings/losses of smaller sized samples to a BJ simulator which we can directly verify as truly random (and therefore fair). If the returns or losses of our simulation are consistently more favourable to the player, that'd be sufficient grounds for making an accusation? I personally believe the gamblers who claim they're rigged.
For example, try this simulator. My experience is that the outcomes are truly random here unrelated to bet size, unlike the RNG games, which will almost certainly result in a loss if you significantly increased the bet. Scaling up your bets do seem to reduce the likelihood of a win.
wizardofodds.com/play/blackjack-v2
We must assume there is every incentive for casinos to cheat, which is directly proportional to the potential winnings or losses of a particular round. Only new players seem to ever win decent amounts. But from then on, it almost guaranteed to go south.
If something claims to have an RTP approx. 96%, how is it then gamblers manage to lose whatever bankroll all so quickly with almost certain probability. Telling people not to gamble if they believe something is rigged is not only patronizing but also serves to ensure the continuation of malpractice and outright deception.
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The hard part is writing the screen scraper that gathers all of this card information, and that is not all that hard. The gaming labs can test billions of hands and look for every sort of statistical anomaly. If they approve a game, I have high confidence in it.
Quote: wizardofass"new player win algorithm" cant exist. If it did people would change their ip address and use other peoples identities to sign up as new everyday. They probably already do this for refer a friend bonus scams. Those criminals would notice the new account wins more and take down the house. It might feel like new players have more success because the new losers dont have a story to share.
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im very interested on how no one else has tried to make this username
also you may just be wrong about your response... i have uncovered many shady mechanisms in the casino world and can assure you it most likely exists on shady casinos websites
It can and it has... if done correctly.Quote: wizardofass"new player win algorithm" cant exist. If it did people would change their ip address and use other peoples identities to sign up as new everyday. They probably already do this for refer a friend bonus scams. Those criminals would notice the new account wins more and take down the house. It might feel like new players have more success because the new losers dont have a story to share.
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Limit the win amounts.
Limit betting amounts.
Have a take-down mode.
Require ID, a selfie holding ID, and a Utility Bill.
Restrict VPN's
Fingerprint devices.
Restrict certain countries from your casino.
Phone Verification.
Require cashout requests made only through payment methods your name is attached to.
It's a loss leader that generates more profits than losses. Gamblers remember winning more than they do losing, especially winning streaks.
Sure, there are various ways around all of that, but is it worthwhile for a few hundred bucks per account? You must first Identify a new player win algorithm and then test it multiple times. There's a limited number of specific people who would notice, test, confirm, and be willing to do it. If you're willing to do all that on a mass scale there's a much better use of your time and effort.
I suppose if it was a common thing at a large number of online casinos and you could automate it, that might be worthwhile.
It still wouldn't take down the house they only need an algorithm that ensures the house always remains in the black. They can just make up any losses they acquire from new player accounts from regular players.
Quote: RadgedI've given WhizzCasinos a shot recently, and I can provide some insights. Keep in mind that my experience might not be the same as everyone else's, but here's what I observed: Pros: Game Variety Web: https://whizzcasinos.com/ offers a wide range of casino games, including slots, table games, and live dealer options. You'll have plenty to choose from. User-Friendly Interface: Navigating the website was relatively straightforward, and I found it easy to access games and promotions. Promotions and Bonuses: They have some attractive welcome bonuses and ongoing promotions. Make sure to read the terms and conditions carefully to understand the wagering requirements.
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I remenber that some of the more honest casinos woul publish their pay-ots... even blakjack was over 2% on a supposed 1/2% game. I had and have thoughts that a 2% drop (secondary program) of total bets made accomplishes the same as short term, and poor play.
This was an offshore probably scam place. I don’t think they’re around anymore. But it just shows that apparently the software can be manipulated.
Quote: keikoI write this thread after trying Playtech quantum blackjack (virtual dealer).
Before that I experience: evolution first person blackjack is also rigged. There's no way the dealer have tens and aces like 80% all the time.
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That is a strong accusation. May I see your evidence, besides adjectives?
Quote: SandybestdogSeveral years ago I found an online casino that had a baccarat game that wouldn’t charge commission on banker. Everything else about it was normal. They had a demo mode you could play. So I downloaded a software program that just clicks on the same spot of the screen every 10 seconds. One night I set it up and let it run in demo mode. When I checked it the next morning it sure enough was up the expected amount. You could also run a chart of the previous bets and it was a steady climb up. I then ran it for several hours in real mode. I think I put $300 or something in and was betting a dollar. When I checked it the exact opposite happened. It had lost about $200 and the chart showed a steady decent down. Also when I went to log in again my account was blocked. I turned off my WiFi and it let me log in again. So I guess they had blocked my IP address.
This was an offshore probably scam place. I don’t think they’re around anymore. But it just shows that apparently the software can be manipulated.
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Are you SURE the real money game had no commission baccarat without any of the other changes that tilt the edge to the house? I think it is more likely that you didn’t read the rules properly than a casino offered that game. If you have evidence I’d love for you to prove me wrong. Send evidence to the Wiz?
This was several years ago so I can't be sure but I'm sure I looked at the rules and watched it play for awhile. The thing is you could run a chart for all your bets. When it was in demo mode it was a steady climb up. When I switched to real mode it was as if you just flipped the chart upside down, the complete opposite.Quote: SOOPOOQuote: SandybestdogSeveral years ago I found an online casino that had a baccarat game that wouldn’t charge commission on banker. Everything else about it was normal. They had a demo mode you could play. So I downloaded a software program that just clicks on the same spot of the screen every 10 seconds. One night I set it up and let it run in demo mode. When I checked it the next morning it sure enough was up the expected amount. You could also run a chart of the previous bets and it was a steady climb up. I then ran it for several hours in real mode. I think I put $300 or something in and was betting a dollar. When I checked it the exact opposite happened. It had lost about $200 and the chart showed a steady decent down. Also when I went to log in again my account was blocked. I turned off my WiFi and it let me log in again. So I guess they had blocked my IP address.
This was an offshore probably scam place. I don’t think they’re around anymore. But it just shows that apparently the software can be manipulated.
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Are you SURE the real money game had no commission baccarat without any of the other changes that tilt the edge to the house? I think it is more likely that you didn’t read the rules properly than a casino offered that game. If you have evidence I’d love for you to prove me wrong. Send evidence to the Wiz?
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It was a really shady looking site. I just checked out it looks like they are surprisingly still in business but all the games still run on flash and I can't figure out how to get it to work.
Quote: SOOPOOSend evidence to the Wiz?
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I am always very open to exposing casino cheating. However, the process must start with some hard evidence. This should consist of numbers and not adjectives.
Quote: MrVQuick question:if a person is playing blackjack online on a site with a live dealer in real time, will the casino bar you for counting cards if discovered?
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I'm told they can and do test for that. How exactly, they wouldn't tell me. If I were on the casino side, I would get the correlation coefficient between count and bet size.
In most cases the question is erroneous. Online live games famously deal about 3/6 decks (or less) and move at an absolute snails pace. The bankroll required to jump from min to max bets and to make any kind of decent money just makes them fairly unviable.Quote: MrVQuick question:if a person is playing blackjack online on a site with a live dealer in real time, will the casino bar you for counting cards if discovered?
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Quote: MrVQuick question:if a person is playing blackjack online on a site with a live dealer in real time, will the casino bar you for counting cards if discovered?
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Yes Absolutely.
The six deck and low penn, makes for games when the only successful card counting requires a lot of wonging and hi rate bet ramping, which they spot easily.
