holecarders, edge sorters, spookers vindicated in court

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in Australian court


while playing pontoon - also known as Spanish blackjack


the court found that their aggressive methods of advantage play were not illegal and did not constitute cheating


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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-...game/101331000


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Can he be considered "spooking" if he was seated AT the table? I thought spooking required you to be at a different table, usually the opposite side of the pit, so you could see the hole card.

You are exactly right, they never did spooking in the present case. Spooking could be considered illegal because it doesn't imply game protection from the perspective of the players "on the game" but rather from the players "behind it". A LOT DIFFERENT from say, front loading.

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this is what caused me to think it was spooking -

from the article:


"The judgement said, during the Pontoon games that triggered the exclusion notice, Mr Grant was sitting close to the dealer but not playing, using hand gestures to indicate to Mr Anderson which cards to play."


I'm assuming his hand gestures were based on his seeing the hole card - he was not playing - he was signaling another player - so in my view he wasn't as GMan stated "on the game"

in any event, when I counted back in the day - I did not employ these techniques - I only knew about them - so my use of language may not have been 100% correct


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Quote: lilredrooster

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this is what caused me to think it was spooking -

from the article:


"The judgement said, during the Pontoon games that triggered the exclusion notice, Mr Grant was sitting close to the dealer but not playing, using hand gestures to indicate to Mr Anderson which cards to play."


I'm assuming his hand gestures were based on his seeing the hole card - he was not playing - he was signaling another player - so in my view he wasn't as GMan stated "on the game"


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link to original post

These players were not hole-carding. The decks being used had minor defects in some of the card backs that allowed a careful observer to make a good guess about the rank of the cards. Not all cards had the defect. Not all guesses were correct.

This was not edge sorting because no action was taken to modify the orientation of the cards. And it certainly wasn't hole-carding. It was simply observing an imperfect design on the back of some cards.

In my opinion, the judge absolutely made the right call here in favor of the players.

Quote: teliot

Quote: lilredrooster

__________


this is what caused me to think it was spooking -

from the article:


"The judgement said, during the Pontoon games that triggered the exclusion notice, Mr Grant was sitting close to the dealer but not playing, using hand gestures to indicate to Mr Anderson which cards to play."


I'm assuming his hand gestures were based on his seeing the hole card - he was not playing - he was signaling another player - so in my view he wasn't as GMan stated "on the game"


.
link to original post

These players were not hole-carding. The decks being used had minor defects in some of the card backs that allowed a careful observer to make a good guess about the rank of the cards. Not all cards had the defect. Not all guesses were correct.

This was not edge sorting because no action was taken to modify the orientation of the cards. And it certainly wasn't hole-carding. It was simply observing an imperfect design on the back of some cards.
link to original post

Okay, I surrender - my description was not good - I read the article very quickly and made some wrong assumptions - apologies

hope the info was useful or interesting to some


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Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: teliot

Quote: lilredrooster

__________


this is what caused me to think it was spooking -

from the article:


"The judgement said, during the Pontoon games that triggered the exclusion notice, Mr Grant was sitting close to the dealer but not playing, using hand gestures to indicate to Mr Anderson which cards to play."


I'm assuming his hand gestures were based on his seeing the hole card - he was not playing - he was signaling another player - so in my view he wasn't as GMan stated "on the game"


.
link to original post

These players were not hole-carding. The decks being used had minor defects in some of the card backs that allowed a careful observer to make a good guess about the rank of the cards. Not all cards had the defect. Not all guesses were correct.

This was not edge sorting because no action was taken to modify the orientation of the cards. And it certainly wasn't hole-carding. It was simply observing an imperfect design on the back of some cards.
link to original post

Okay, I surrender - my description was not good - I read the article very quickly and made some wrong assumptions - apologies

hope the info was useful or interesting to some


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link to original post

The article was very useful and thanks for the link.

Everyone is guilty occasionally of doing a cursory read and a misunderstanding. It has happened to me too. People will jump on you for it. It's no biggie.

Quote: lilredrooster

Okay, I surrender - my description was not good - I read the article very quickly and made some wrong assumptions - apologies

hope the info was useful or interesting to some


.
link to original post

I thought the article was interesting.
Needed more lemur antics and explosions, but a good read anyway.

Here the official judgement:
https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/caselaw/qcat/2022/289

The big big "mistake" the casino made, was that they criminalised the whole issue and gave the patrons an official ban.
The judge was very right in saying that you cannot do that based on what is public available information. The players did not deceit the casino. Star knew or at least should have known what they were doing. If Star were to have issues with it, they should have protected themselves better. Not wait till they lost. Now that these guys won this administrative decision, they should take Star to court for not having allowed them to participate in a game that they could beat and ask for compensation.

Thanks for posting this article
Pontoon used to be my favorite game at the Star Gold Coast (formerly Jupiters').
FYI: They took the game off the floor some time near the beginning of 2021, I think.