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January 2nd, 2022 at 1:06:31 PM permalink
I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.
kewlj
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January 2nd, 2022 at 1:21:23 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.



Of course card counting isn't illegal in Pennsylvania. How can thinking be illegal. LOL.

My first thought was another mis-informed pit/floor guy, but that probably wasn't the case. He likely knows damn well it is not illegal, but it is just something he will say to players to discourage it.

A good follow-up question would have been to ask him in the 10+ years Pa has had table games, how many card counters have been arrested and convicted for card counting? The answer is zero, because it is not illegal.
OnceDear
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January 2nd, 2022 at 1:25:13 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.
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I am not a lawyer, but I'm not aware of any state where using your mind to play a card game is illegal, and so long as you are ONLY using your mind, then cardcounting is just part of the skill of the game. If you use something to keep tally of the count, such as moving or turning your chips, then that could be deemed illegal. Not the counting, but the using of a device.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
ThatDonGuy
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January 2nd, 2022 at 1:35:11 PM permalink
The only law I can find in Pennsylvania state laws says that you can't use a device to count (Nevada has a similar law) - nothing about counting in your head.

It could also be a case of using "illegal" in place of "very, very seriously frowned upon."
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January 2nd, 2022 at 1:56:21 PM permalink
A long time ago I was informed that they use a particular technology - if you’ve ever heard of bloodhound - and this was told to me when it was sands.

I don’t believe it was illegal here either but I think they do what they can to figure out if someone is counting. He also said the managers have to know how to count cards in order to spot the counters.

I believe all of you guys though.

And thatdonguy I am almost certain I know the exact law you speak of but it has to do with the shufflers not being able to give the Patron information about the shuffle… however that would happen I have no clue tbh
darkoz
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January 2nd, 2022 at 2:15:37 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Quote: heatmap

I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.
link to original post

I am not a lawyer, but I'm not aware of any state where using your mind to play a card game is illegal, and so long as you are ONLY using your mind, then cardcounting is just part of the skill of the game. If you use something to keep tally of the count, such as moving or turning your chips, then that could be deemed illegal. Not the counting, but the using of a device.
link to original post



Keeping tally with your chips isn't illegal. Chips are not a device anymore than keeping count with your fingers are.

The device has to be something that you brought in, not chips the casino handed to you.

I would consider a cellphone if you are using to count cards a Device. Something of that nature.
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OnceDear
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Mukke
January 2nd, 2022 at 2:30:33 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz


Keeping tally with your chips isn't illegal. Chips are not a device anymore than keeping count with your fingers are.

The device has to be something that you brought in, not chips the casino handed to you.

I would consider a cellphone if you are using to count cards a Device. Something of that nature.
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Hi DarkOz,
I vaguely recall reading that using left or right rotation of a chip to keep the count MIGHT be construed as using 'a device'. Whether that has been tested in court is an unknown to me. Interesting that you mention that the chip is a device lent to the player, so might be considered a legitimate tool in the execution of the game.
Keeping count on your fingers is funny. I must try that. Table games need a bit of humour.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
OnceDear
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January 2nd, 2022 at 2:35:10 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

A long time ago I was informed that they use a particular technology - if you’ve ever heard of bloodhound - and this was told to me when it was sands.

I don’t believe it was illegal here either but I think they do what they can to figure out if someone is counting. He also said the managers have to know how to count cards in order to spot the counters.

I believe all of you guys though.

And thatdonguy I am almost certain I know the exact law you speak of but it has to do with the shufflers not being able to give the Patron information about the shuffle… however that would happen I have no clue tbh
link to original post

The house probably keep track of the count using OCR. I'm sure online gaffs do for all games. And those b****rs have computers integral to the dealing process so would be insane not to have those same computers counting in real time.
Beware. The earth is NOT flat. Hit and run is not a winning strategy: Pressing into trends IS not a winning strategy: Progressives are not a winning strategy: Don't Buy It! .Don't even take it for free.
heatmap
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January 2nd, 2022 at 4:59:33 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Quote: heatmap

A long time ago I was informed that they use a particular technology - if you’ve ever heard of bloodhound - and this was told to me when it was sands.

I don’t believe it was illegal here either but I think they do what they can to figure out if someone is counting. He also said the managers have to know how to count cards in order to spot the counters.

I believe all of you guys though.

And thatdonguy I am almost certain I know the exact law you speak of but it has to do with the shufflers not being able to give the Patron information about the shuffle… however that would happen I have no clue tbh
link to original post

The house probably keep track of the count using OCR. I'm sure online gaffs do for all games. And those b****rs have computers integral to the dealing process so would be insane not to have those same computers counting in real time.
link to original post



So bloodhound works with voice. You watch the video or playback of the player playing while they are playing the game in this case, and you will receive an output if the person is counting.

To me as a programmer ocr is easier in a way, but as someone with a girlfriend who tries to use ocr on all kinds of documents unsuccessfully on a daily basis that the tech isn’t quite there yet. Now I’d voice tech better than ocr? Probably not. But that’s my basic understanding of bloodhound and how it either works or used to work in order to catch card counters.

I don’t know if anything that I just said is relevant or makes sense according to this thread
AlanMendelson
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January 2nd, 2022 at 5:38:05 PM permalink
People please use common sense. A device for card counting is not a casino chip.

Geez.

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