Card counting illegal in Pennsylvania

I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.

Quote: heatmap

I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.

Of course card counting isn't illegal in Pennsylvania. How can thinking be illegal. LOL.

My first thought was another mis-informed pit/floor guy, but that probably wasn't the case. He likely knows damn well it is not illegal, but it is just something he will say to players to discourage it.

A good follow-up question would have been to ask him in the 10+ years Pa has had table games, how many card counters have been arrested and convicted for card counting? The answer is zero, because it is not illegal.

Quote: heatmap

I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.
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I am not a lawyer, but I'm not aware of any state where using your mind to play a card game is illegal, and so long as you are ONLY using your mind, then cardcounting is just part of the skill of the game. If you use something to keep tally of the count, such as moving or turning your chips, then that could be deemed illegal. Not the counting, but the using of a device.

The only law I can find in Pennsylvania state laws says that you can't use a device to count (Nevada has a similar law) - nothing about counting in your head.

It could also be a case of using "illegal" in place of "very, very seriously frowned upon."

A long time ago I was informed that they use a particular technology - if you’ve ever heard of bloodhound - and this was told to me when it was sands.

I don’t believe it was illegal here either but I think they do what they can to figure out if someone is counting. He also said the managers have to know how to count cards in order to spot the counters.

I believe all of you guys though.

And thatdonguy I am almost certain I know the exact law you speak of but it has to do with the shufflers not being able to give the Patron information about the shuffle… however that would happen I have no clue tbh

Quote: OnceDear

Quote: heatmap

I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.
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I am not a lawyer, but I'm not aware of any state where using your mind to play a card game is illegal, and so long as you are ONLY using your mind, then cardcounting is just part of the skill of the game. If you use something to keep tally of the count, such as moving or turning your chips, then that could be deemed illegal. Not the counting, but the using of a device.
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Keeping tally with your chips isn't illegal. Chips are not a device anymore than keeping count with your fingers are.

The device has to be something that you brought in, not chips the casino handed to you.

I would consider a cellphone if you are using to count cards a Device. Something of that nature.

Quote: darkoz

Keeping tally with your chips isn't illegal. Chips are not a device anymore than keeping count with your fingers are.

The device has to be something that you brought in, not chips the casino handed to you.

I would consider a cellphone if you are using to count cards a Device. Something of that nature.
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Hi DarkOz,
I vaguely recall reading that using left or right rotation of a chip to keep the count MIGHT be construed as using 'a device'. Whether that has been tested in court is an unknown to me. Interesting that you mention that the chip is a device lent to the player, so might be considered a legitimate tool in the execution of the game.
Keeping count on your fingers is funny. I must try that. Table games need a bit of humour.

Quote: heatmap

A long time ago I was informed that they use a particular technology - if you’ve ever heard of bloodhound - and this was told to me when it was sands.

I don’t believe it was illegal here either but I think they do what they can to figure out if someone is counting. He also said the managers have to know how to count cards in order to spot the counters.

I believe all of you guys though.

And thatdonguy I am almost certain I know the exact law you speak of but it has to do with the shufflers not being able to give the Patron information about the shuffle… however that would happen I have no clue tbh
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The house probably keep track of the count using OCR. I'm sure online gaffs do for all games. And those b****rs have computers integral to the dealing process so would be insane not to have those same computers counting in real time.

Quote: OnceDear

Quote: heatmap

A long time ago I was informed that they use a particular technology - if you’ve ever heard of bloodhound - and this was told to me when it was sands.

I don’t believe it was illegal here either but I think they do what they can to figure out if someone is counting. He also said the managers have to know how to count cards in order to spot the counters.

I believe all of you guys though.

And thatdonguy I am almost certain I know the exact law you speak of but it has to do with the shufflers not being able to give the Patron information about the shuffle… however that would happen I have no clue tbh
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The house probably keep track of the count using OCR. I'm sure online gaffs do for all games. And those b****rs have computers integral to the dealing process so would be insane not to have those same computers counting in real time.
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So bloodhound works with voice. You watch the video or playback of the player playing while they are playing the game in this case, and you will receive an output if the person is counting.

To me as a programmer ocr is easier in a way, but as someone with a girlfriend who tries to use ocr on all kinds of documents unsuccessfully on a daily basis that the tech isn’t quite there yet. Now I’d voice tech better than ocr? Probably not. But that’s my basic understanding of bloodhound and how it either works or used to work in order to catch card counters.

I don’t know if anything that I just said is relevant or makes sense according to this thread

People please use common sense. A device for card counting is not a casino chip.

Geez.

Since a Pit Boss has ZERO brain, he might legitimately thinks that any form of using his brain is illegal.

Quote: GMan

Since a Pit Boss has ZERO brain, he might legitimately thinks that any form of using his brain is illegal.
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I concur with that. Having worked in the Las Vegas Gaming market for 30 years I am still astounded at how little casino employees know about gambling. I mainly worked with Slot Directors and they are some of the most superstitious people that I have met.

Quote: heatmap

A long time ago I was informed that they use a particular technology - if you’ve ever heard of bloodhound - and this was told to me when it was sands.

I don’t believe it was illegal here either but I think they do what they can to figure out if someone is counting. He also said the managers have to know how to count cards in order to spot the counters.

I believe all of you guys though.

And thatdonguy I am almost certain I know the exact law you speak of but it has to do with the shufflers not being able to give the Patron information about the shuffle… however that would happen I have no clue tbh
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Lol at the managers have to know how to count cards.

Quote: heatmap

A long time ago I was informed that they use a particular technology - if you’ve ever heard of bloodhound - and this was told to me when it was sands.

I don’t believe it was illegal here either but I think they do what they can to figure out if someone is counting. He also said the managers have to know how to count cards in order to spot the counters.

I believe all of you guys though.

And thatdonguy I am almost certain I know the exact law you speak of but it has to do with the shufflers not being able to give the Patron information about the shuffle… however that would happen I have no clue tbh
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Lol at the managers have to know how to count cards. You found a guy, there are many of them among humans, who likes to run his mouth making stuff up to anyone he thinks will listen to it or who might think he knows what he’s talking about.

Casino employee doesn't know:

A) The rules of their own game.
B) The strategy of their own game.
C) Any law pretty much ever about money, devices, or advantage players (such as illegal detentions, kidnapping, using the police to obtain information, etc).

This fits 999/1,000 casino employees.

Quote: Romes

Casino employee doesn't know:

A) The rules of their own game.
B) The strategy of their own game.
C) Any law pretty much ever about money, devices, or advantage players (such as illegal detentions, kidnapping, using the police to obtain information, etc).

This fits 999/1,000 casino employees.
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That's right. A monkey could deal if they could be taught to ask, "insurance?". And wouldn't whine like a human dealer.

Quote: heatmap

I recently had a conversation with what I think was some kind of floor manager. I mentioned card counting to him when I was babbling on and he said that it was illegal in PA to card count compared to Vegas where it isn’t we’re his words. I thought it wasn’t. Kewlj or someone who knows the laws of PA know if this is true or not?

Just a reminder I am not a card counter nor have I ever been which is why I’m comfortable joking with floor people about this particular subject and I do make a lot of mistakes apparently when I play so I’m a recreational player pretty much for fun.
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As a general rule, casino's would like you to think that *anything* that gives you an advantage is "cheating" and/or "illegal". They want to keep you intimidated and misinformed because they don't want you doing anything in their casinos except losing money.

...Of course they will run commercials and take out radio ads and have giant billboards which all show a player or a group of players sitting around a blackjack table or slot machine with their hands in the air and giant smiles on their faces with the implication they just won a lot of money. They'll tell you: "Win BIG at our casino!";"Our slots are loose!"; "We have more winners!" "Come win big at <casino name here>!"

In reality, however, if you "win big" they'll kick you out of the casino (and sometimes threaten to throw you off the property for "trespassing"). If one of their slot machines was indeed "loose" (and it doesn't even have to give the player any advantage at all), they'll quickly remove that slot machine and replace it with one that will steal your money even quicker. They're so paranoid about card counters they even kick out bad ones who are just breaking even or losing money.

It's been many decades since casinos were ran by the mob, but they're still just as evil as they ever were. They'll weasel their way into a community, and then underpay their employees while they suck every dime out of that community they can get away with. They'll watch people gamble away their life savings, commit suicide in their rooms, see families broken up and destroyed--and all-the-while they have actuaries tweaking this or that so they can put the squeeze on you even harder. Absolutely everything in a casino--to the tiniest detail--is designed solely with the goal to separate you from your wallet. Casino's don't want winners--they only want suckers.

Sometimes their employees aren't too bright and they'll believe their own propaganda. You'll get a pit boss who really does think that card counting is illegal, and then they'll detain you in the casino while they call the police. This is a great thing when it happens, because then you get to sue them for false imprisonment, the intentional infliction of emotional distress (as well as a host of many other possible Causes of Action)--and because the casino doesn't want the bad publicity, they'll trip over themselves to give you a very generous out of court settlement. There are people who have made more money when that happens than they ever made counting cards.

Quote: heatmap

They'll weasel their way into a community, and then underpay their employees while they suck every dime out of that community they can get away with. They'll watch people gamble away their life savings, commit suicide in their rooms, see families broken up and destroyed--and all-the-while they have actuaries tweaking this or that so they can put the squeeze on you even harder. Absolutely everything in a casino--to the tiniest detail--is designed solely with the goal to separate you from your wallet. Casino's don't want winners--they only want suckers.
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The funny thing is.. as an AP it continues to amaze me that the casinos don't do more to stop AP against slots. When I visited Vegas, I saw APers everywhere. I did have a chat with some and there was some talk about casinos not liking them, but if they at all cared they could easily do more to stop people. I saw very little "obfuscation" on the part of the APs - everything was very visible in the open.

I do know of one case outside of Vegas where the casino one day removed most of their APable machines. From what I was told (by other APs and an employee at the place), apparently one day one of the regulars decided to show off his thing to his host. The next week the machines were gone. Now why someone would do that is anyone's guess, but the fact the casino did something about it AFTER being told about it seems to indicate they were oblivious to it before being explicitly told. How is that even possible?

This brings me to my next point: Part of me would love to work for a casino. I would love to run big data analysis on all the data and telemetry from players playing slots. We all assume that the casinos known down to the very minute when anyone plays what machine and for how long, but based on the above, I sometimes wonder if they even know how many machines they have in the place. I've seen so much poor management that I seriously doubt these folks have any clue what they are doing.

But.. I can't bring myself to work for a casino. While I have now doubt I could do a very good job, I've seen and continue to see enough sad destinies at the casino, that I couldn't live with myself if I contributed to creating systems designed to lure more people in and extract more money from people who truly can't afford it in the first place.

An AP can better his income if he can discover new plays.

A casino employee gets the same income regardless when he does his job.

Unless they are shown an AP movez they have neither the knowledge nor inclination to do detective work on their own.

I wouldn't expect the average casino employee or even host to care enough about APs to do anything about it.

But if I was running, as in owning or involved in the upper management of, a casino, this is absolutely something I would care about. Just like I would be doing statistical analysis of every machine and every player to look for anomalies. Even if you don't have any interest or knowledge of AP, wouldn't you want to know if someone was able to cheat at slots? Or do people so blindly trust in the technology and the "casino always wins" saying that they see no reason to verify?

Quote: Mukke

Even if you don't have any interest or knowledge of AP, wouldn't you want to know if someone was able to cheat at slots?
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Putting money into a slot macine and pressing buttons to begin a game is not cheating.

Quote: Mukke

I wouldn't expect the average casino employee or even host to care enough about APs to do anything about it.

But if I was running, as in owning or involved in the upper management of, a casino, this is absolutely something I would care about. Just like I would be doing statistical analysis of every machine and every player to look for anomalies. Even if you don't have any interest or knowledge of AP, wouldn't you want to know if someone was able to cheat at slots? Or do people so blindly trust in the technology and the "casino always wins" saying that they see no reason to verify?
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It comes down to expertise and knowledge. There are so many things that aren't published (because that would kill the play) that unless you are going to turn research into a second vocation, you aren't even going to dent the surface.

Barring that, you would have to bring in an expert. Said expert will cost you money. Also said expert is 95% of the time NOT an AP gone darkside (a rarity in my opinion) but a goodie two shoes who thinks he can understand the mind of an AP

Trust me, most of the experts cannot.

I will give you a personal experience example.

At my lawsuit for being backroomed for using other players cards the casino called in an expert witness to testify to the jury what I was doing.

Here is what he explained. He said the casino had low thresholds for low income players such that only a small number of coin in, might get you beginner offers. He testified that it became increasingly harder to earn better offers. It would cost you double or triple, perhaps even quintuple to earn $50 in Freeplay offers than it would $10.

He explained that the reason I used multiple players cards was to avoid this. By using multicarding, I was getting $10 on five cards (I e. $50 Freeplay) for much cheaper than regular players who were forced to earn it at quintuple the cost.

He finished by iteration of the profit margins required to run a casino and how charging quintuple to earn better offers was fair based on XYZ factors.

It was a smart, terse explanation and 100% incorrect as to what I do. Personally I was insulted that he deemed my AP intelligence so low (while measuring his to be very low). $10? On multiple cards? Hell, that's a waste to an AP multicarder. I was getting $250 Freeplay on EACH card. I wasn't looking to make $50, I was looking to make $5,000.

And of course I couldn't testify to that or correct him.

So, you can see the problem is even the experts don't have the ability to think like an AP does.

1% of 1% of the population if even that is successful at AP. How are you going to figure out the moves when so many people who want the info can't figure it out on their own

Thanks for the story. Also interesting to read about.

And yeah you're probably right. But this really just goes back to my original point that these places aren't the well-run well-oiled machines we too often give them credit for.

Quote: Mukke

Thanks for the story. Also interesting to read about.

And yeah you're probably right. But this really just goes back to my original point that these places aren't the well-run well-oiled machines we too often give them credit for.
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The more that you understand about casinos you will realize that they are just like any other business. A few people might understand the intricacies of the business but 99% of the employees do not.

Quote: Mukke

Quote: heatmap

They'll weasel their way into a community, and then underpay their employees while they suck every dime out of that community they can get away with. They'll watch people gamble away their life savings, commit suicide in their rooms, see families broken up and destroyed--and all-the-while they have actuaries tweaking this or that so they can put the squeeze on you even harder. Absolutely everything in a casino--to the tiniest detail--is designed solely with the goal to separate you from your wallet. Casino's don't want winners--they only want suckers.
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The funny thing is.. as an AP it continues to amaze me that the casinos don't do more to stop AP against slots. When I visited Vegas, I saw APers everywhere. I did have a chat with some and there was some talk about casinos not liking them, but if they at all cared they could easily do more to stop people. I saw very little "obfuscation" on the part of the APs - everything was very visible in the open.

I do know of one case outside of Vegas where the casino one day removed most of their APable machines. From what I was told (by other APs and an employee at the place), apparently one day one of the regulars decided to show off his thing to his host. The next week the machines were gone. Now why someone would do that is anyone's guess, but the fact the casino did something about it AFTER being told about it seems to indicate they were oblivious to it before being explicitly told. How is that even possible?

This brings me to my next point: Part of me would love to work for a casino. I would love to run big data analysis on all the data and telemetry from players playing slots. We all assume that the casinos known down to the very minute when anyone plays what machine and for how long, but based on the above, I sometimes wonder if they even know how many machines they have in the place. I've seen so much poor management that I seriously doubt these folks have any clue what they are doing.

But.. I can't bring myself to work for a casino. While I have now doubt I could do a very good job, I've seen and continue to see enough sad destinies at the casino, that I couldn't live with myself if I contributed to creating systems designed to lure more people in and extract more money from people who truly can't afford it in the first place.
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Any legal way you can get over on a casino, I wholeheartedly salute you (you might have guessed that I have a profound hatred for casinos). And any non-legal way you may have to get over on a casino, well, don't get caught ;)

I imagine working at a casino would be a soul-killing experience. Especially if you're the guy called whenever they find a suicide in one of their rooms after a night of losing their life savings.

Let that hate out of your heart man. Whatever side of the tables or machines you are on, spending TOO MUCH time in the casino environment is soul draining and depressing.

Quote: mcallister3200

Let that hate out of your heart man. Whatever side of the tables or machines you are on, spending TOO MUCH time in the casino environment is soul draining and depressing.
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Yes, hate is bad. Can we hold hands and sing kumbaya while you parrot some more platitudes? Just say no to drugs? A rolling stone gathers no moss, so let's get while the getting is good--and a stitch in time saves nine, by God.

Of course you might have a different outlook if you ever know anyone who wraps their mouth around a Mossberg 20 gauge and then decorates the wallpaper behind them with pieces of their skull and brain matter. I didn't know this until it happened, but it costs a lot of money to hire specialists to come in and clean up death scenes. They have to put on Hazmat suits and bring in special "toxic waste" barrels and then have it carted off and disposed of in a special way--unless you do it yourself of course (which we had to do since we couldn't afford otherwise). For some reason when you do it yourself many local regulations and/or city ordinances allow you to do it normally as if you were taking out regular garbage. I don't know if you've ever handled a piece of someone's brain, but it is coated with a thin "sandpapery" film that--if it gets onto your pants or shirt--soaks into the fabric itself and doesn't come out easily. So wear disposable clothes you can throw away (blood stains heavily too). Something else people don't know is that when a shell from a shotgun fractures the skull, it's like throwing a ceramic vase against a wall--you get hundreds of small fragments going everywhere. We thought we had got it all, but a week later we found a piece of bone in the next room under the kitchen table (the energy from the blast can send tiny pieces flying in strange directions and for long distances).Just a few tips to help you become an advantage player when cleaning up suicides.

Individuals are responsible for their own choices and behavior, so obviously no casino ever forced someone to kill themselves. Who is to blame? The crack addict, or the dealer who supplies him? Obviously the crack addict chose to smoke crack, nobody forced him to do it--but at least in the case of actual drugs--the courts have ruled that the crack dealer shares in the responsibility, and if a drug addict dies from the product the dealer supplied, the dealer can be charged with manslaughter or 2nd degree murder. Like drugs, all the mechanisms in a casino are designed to raise your serotonin levels--to stimulate the /exact/ part of your brain that crack affects. This has been proven scientifically. And like how Big Tobacco put chemicals in their cigarettes to make them more addictive, casinos are constantly tweaking their formulas and slot machines and how everything is presented to the players to increase that serotonin hit to keep people playing. To keep them addicted. To keep them losing money. For most people, we have the self control to walk away. To quit. But for a percentage of the population, their brains are wired differently and they have a propensity for becoming especially addicted to this type of bombardment--and these are the people who are most vulnerable to a casino's trappings and are the exact victims casinos love to exploit.

Regarding spending too much time in a casino: I totally and completely agree. Unless you are taking money from that casino every waking minute after you walk through the front doors.

I don’t disagree with you, you don’t need to tell me any of that I’ve been around the block, worked briefly on the other sides around ‘10 during the recession so that I didn’t have to be a bum (what else is someone without a college degree, little money, and no service industry experience supposed to do in Vegas during a recession?) Then for about a decade on your side of the table both before, during, and after that time.

You either find a healthy way to deal with it (many just become cynical and indifferent after some time, perhaps that’s the least damaging way to deal with it for many without finding something else to do) or it eats you up in unhealthy ways. Hence, soul sucking and depressing on either side once you can see the business for what it is.

Hate isn’t a healthy motivator, if that’s your reason for being in the business you are not going to get out of it what you were hoping in the end even if you make more money than god.

For me the healthy way is to give up some amount of potential income and even potential working relationships in order to just buy myself more time. The freedom of time and location not being beholden to customers, employers or employees is really the only good thing about it. Unfortunately in the early days I didn’t have a lot of that freedom, the need to build and maintain a bankroll as well as lower risk took that time and at times was unhealthy.

Quote: mcallister3200

I don’t disagree with you, you don’t need to tell me any of that I’ve been around the block, worked briefly on the other sides around ‘10 during the recession so that I didn’t have to be a bum, and then for about a decade on your side of the table both before, during, and after that time.

You either find a healthy way to deal with it (many just become cynical and indifferent after some time, perhaps that’s the least damaging way to deal with it for many without finding something else to do) or it eats you up in unhealthy ways. Hence, soul sucking and depressing on either side once you can see the business for what it is.

Hate isn’t a healthy motivator, if that’s your reason for being in the business you are not going to get out of it what you were hoping in the end even if you make more money than god.

For me the healthy way is to give up some amount of potential income and even potential working relationships in order to just buy myself more time. The freedom of time and location not being beholden to customers, employers or employees is really the only good thing about it. Unfortunately in the early days I didn’t have a lot of that freedom, the need to build and maintain a bankroll as well as lower risk took that time and at times was unhealthy.
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My original comment was probably a bit hyperbolic regarding "hating the casino"--and I agree with your sentiments about it being unproductive and in some cases can be detrimental to your mental health.

In my case, my "hatred" inspired me to learn card counting as a way to legally "get back" at these places. It would be more accurate to say I dislike casinos and their business practices. If it rose to the level of a venomous burning hatred, I wouldn't even be able to bring myself to walk inside. I do hold my nose while I'm there, but I make use of the comped rooms and I eat at the comped buffets and accept the free steaks--and I certainly don't take anything out on casino staff. In some ways the low level staff are victims themselves.