How does anyone count anymore?

I've never counted, nor have I ever tried, but for those that do, how do you do it? Between the auto shufflers, the burn card, and the yellow plastic divider thing that prevents the last dozen or so cards from being played - what method is there to get an accurate count? I under the basic principle, but don't all of these counter methods end the potential to count? I guess you can avoid the auto shufflers, but what about the burn card and the yellow plastic divider (does that thing have a name?)

All these things are nothing new.

The continuous shufflers, as you mentioned are obviously something to be avoided for the counter. The good thing is gamblers hate them as well so casinos can't install too many.

The burn card is meaningless and mostly symbolic, and is statistically the same as any unplayed cards after the cut card.

The cut card has been around forever. Not since the very early days of blackjack have dealers dealt to the bottom of the deck. Nor does a card counter require this to gain an advantage. The cut card's placement does affect penetration however, and the better the penetration, the better the variance in the count, which is obviously good for a card counter who adjusts their bet accordingly. Poor penetration sees lower average positive counts (as well as negative) meaning bet size must be varied more to achieve the same advantage, or the counter must play to a lower hourly expected win.

Of course a casino would be unwise to set penetration too low, as it means more time shuffling compared to playing. Hands per hour decreases, less money is bet overall and thus the casino makes far less money from gamblers. A balance is struck between deterring counters and increasing the hands per hour.

Personally I think the sheer rate at which regular gamblers outweigh counters means a high penetration will generally improve the bottom line for the casinos. In my mind this will always remain true as long as the penetration does not 'stand out' too much causing many counters to flock there. That case is more borderline, although I still doubt a bunch of counters could overcome the increase in profits from the deeper penetration in all but the most extreme cases.

An interesting point is below-average penetration will save regular players a lot of money. Anything that saves players money costs the casino money, meaning setting penetration low is allowing them to get beaten by the counters without a counter ever stepping foot in the casino. Another reason why penetration (or the cut card that the OP refers to) is not going to be the tool the casinos can use to stop card counting.

In an 8-deck shoe, the burn card is insignificant (as pocketaces noted, just another unseen card).

The cut-card is a big factor in the profitability of card-counting. With low penetration (many cards unseen when its shuffle time), counters don't stand to make as much money. That cut card will often come out just when the count is starting to show a very advantageous situation. However, you can and should count even with low penetration, to gain every edge you can.

Serious card counters will always seek the best conditions, and the location of the cut card is one of the most important elements to consider.

Certainly, your counting successes will be more likely at tables where the rules have the lowest house advantage and the number of decks is the smallest. The cut card as mentioned will also affect play because your denominator (the number of decks remaining) will decrease making your true count subject to more volatility.

For example, in an 8 deck shoe say that your count is +8 (where you counts 10s as -1 and 3-6s as +1) and there are 4 decks remaining (giving you a true count of +2). That means that out of 2086 cards remaining, there are 12 more 10s than 3-6s. This is highly helpful because you know that of the cards remaining, there are about 68 tens and 60 3-6s remaining for a ratio of about 1.13 to 1, which is somewhat meaningful. At this point, you would stand on 16s against a 10, stand on 12 against a 3.

But for a double deck game (or an 8 deck shoe where the cut card is set beyond the 7th deck), say that your count is +8 and there is one deck remaining (giving you a true count of +8). Than means that out of 52 cards remaining, there are 20 tens and 12 3-6s remaining for a ratio of 1.67 to 1. That's very meaningful and there are a number of game changes you would make to take advantage of this situation.

That's why it's important to know your count the deeper into a shoe you go and most importantly, it's important that you estimate that number of decks remaining in order to adjust your bet and strategy accordingly. A higher count is more important the deeper in the shoe you go. Similarly, if the count is very low, take a break and come back for the start of the next shoe.

I think you are overthinking these issues. The premise of card counting is simple, a surplus of aces and tens favor the player, small cards favor the dealer. By using any card counting strategy you can measure how good the rest of the deck is. You don’t need to have a perfect count. With some strategies, like the Knockout, Golden Touch or my own ace/five, you don’t need to adjust for remaining decks at all. It can really be pretty easy.

About terminology, “automatic shufflers” are the kind that shuffle an entire shoe while the dealer is using another one. Card counters should prefer these to a hand shuffle, because there is less time wasted shuffling. “Continuous shufflers” are a nemesis of card counters. These are the ones that randomly insert discards back into the shoe. In most cases, it is like playing the first hand after a shuffle every hand.

Exactly. Even simple strategies can and do alter the standard, no-counting house edge and can pretty easily bring Blackjack's small edge in to an advantage situation. In fact, to a typical non-counting player, in a sense the house edge of each specific hand is constantly changing as the shoe progresses. Of course, over time it all averages out to a certain amount which is close to the amount of the first hand of the shoe.

So to the OP, its clear that anyone could walk in to a casino, find a shoe game and count to an advantage. The problem of doing it professionally with a high chance of success is not one of difficulty, it is one of practicality and feasibility, and is based on two main problems for an average person:

1. For counting to be more than a very small hourly expected value or possibly only a reduced house edge, a suitable bet spread must be attained. The higher the spread the higher the chance of heat and barrings, which is a risk that often limits things more as time goes on. Also a large spread increases volatility, which brings the second and largest problem...

2. A bankroll must be suitably large to cover the variance and possible losing streaks, or a counter could go bust (actually very easily with a small bankroll)

Its clear a recreational gambler is very easily succombed to the second problem: Bringing $500 to a casino and counting even perfectly is not going to swing the odds enough in your favor to come close to guaranteeing (or rather having a high chance of) a win. The swing in expected value is just too small. Rather, you will have a slightly higher chance of winning, but otherwise your experience will be similar. Just like the casino can lose to you when it has the advantage, the casino can beat you when you have the advantage. When the average advantages are under one percent each direction, these scenarios will happen. However the casino has the benefit of virtually unlimited bankroll, which is what the successful professional counter must approximate with their large bankroll.

By far the best solution to these problems, for obvious reasons, is team play. Teams allow for the highest bet spread possible, and will play to a better expected value.

For a single counter who wishes to have a high expectation of success, he must be willing to put in as much time as possible (many, many hours) and have a suitable bankroll. Being versed in cover play also is a must as casinos catch on to you.

For the rest of us who can count but don't have a team or a large bankroll at our disposal, card counting is a great way to gain that edge and have a greater chance of winning. Just like blackjack is a better gamble than roulette, card counting is a better gamble than regular blackjack. The more you do it, the more likely you will be to win, but for the recreational, budget-limited card counter, winning is never a certainty.

Another thing that I found very odd, is at one Indian casino that I play a Blackjack Tournament in, when they change dealers, the new dealer will burn one card!?! I find this practice very disturbing/odd, and for that reason alone I got up took my chips and ran to the cage as fast as I could. Let me know if anyone else ran into the same thing please.

Quote: Funguy21

Another thing that I found very odd, is at one Indian casino that I play a Blackjack Tournament in, when they change dealers, the new dealer will burn one card!?! I find this practice very disturbing/odd, and for that reason alone I got up took my chips and ran to the cage as fast as I could. Let me know if anyone else ran into the same thing please.

It happens here all the time.

... except at the tables where they shuffle up on a dealer change.

Why would you find burning a card on a dealer change odd?

Quote: Funguy21

Another thing that I found very odd, is at one Indian casino that I play a Blackjack Tournament in, when they change dealers, the new dealer will burn one card!?! I find this practice very disturbing/odd, and for that reason alone I got up took my chips and ran to the cage as fast as I could. Let me know if anyone else ran into the same thing please.

That is 100% standard operating procedure at almost every casino I've visited.

Probably done with the "cut card" discussion but I was wondering of the legality behind it.
I don't play BJ but saw a TV show based on Binion's where a "rude" player threw out the accusation of the dealer "short decking". That got him ejected by the Pit Boss (it was after an earlier warning of something or other). The narrator spoke of this being a serious breach of gaming law, something no Pit Boss would want to become known around town. Obviously "short decking" means really bad pen; what about gaming regs?

Quote: HornHighYo11

Probably done with the "cut card" discussion but I was wondering of the legality behind it.
I don't play BJ but saw a TV show based on Binion's where a "rude" player threw out the accusation of the dealer "short decking". That got him ejected by the Pit Boss (it was after an earlier warning of something or other). The narrator spoke of this being a serious breach of gaming law, something no Pit Boss would want to become known around town. Obviously "short decking" means really bad pen; what about gaming regs?

"Short decking" is not about penetration, it is about removing 10s and Aces from the deck so as to increase the house advantage.

It is wildly illegal and against gaming regs, so yes no Pit Boss would want to be accused of it.

Penetration is not regulated AFAIK. Bad penetration costs the casino money in terms of hands per hour, so ignoring the issue of card counters it's in their best interest to have deep penetration. Taking into account card counters, many would argue it's still in their best interests to have deep penetration, and just have a competent staff to eject high-level card counters. Low level card counters are not going to win enough to offset the extra time you spend shuffling and not dealing.

Thanks for the clarity.

I will remove "obviously" from my vocabulary for a few days.

How do I count? ... Same as always. On my fingers!

I feel, if a dealer burns a card on a already active deck, it changes the cards, thus swings the odds more on the casino side.

I don't know how you guys count cards, I have a hard time counting my hand. It is so embarrassing when the dealer says sir, you have twenty two, throw your cards in when that happens. The second time it happens they get all puffed up and hostile. I try explaining that I'm a DI so I don't have to know how to count.

I don't know, maybe I should try being a card counter next? VP, already ate through one 401k, I gotta get a system. I thought I was on to something with the miracle dice toss for awhile, but then they brought out the unmatched cubes and bouncy felt and harsh dealers.

I figure those little waters go for around a hundred each, plus cleavage tax. If I owned the joint, I would put in those auto counters [single deck] that shuffle each hand, bring back time and a half black jack and let you guys spread 10/1. How does that sound? Great food, friendly staff, clean restrooms and put in a smoke free area bigger than the smoking one. My staff would prolly steal me blind, but that's how I roll. Oh and a smoke free pit except with a medical card, and respect for the disabled and feeble old players and give them a seat at the craps table. Turn down the friggin din of the slots so we can hear each other scream.

Less alcohol and more health drinks that have fiber. Ya gotta be masochistic to play craps. Its like all the dealers are, or are hooked up to, some dominatrix and I'm just there for the pain. If all of us losers would just quit going you AP's will have to take turns supporting the casino's yourselves.

Quote: Funguy21

I feel, if a dealer burns a card on a already active deck, it changes the cards, thus swings the odds more on the casino side.

This is untrue. The burn card will change the "order of the cards," but will not swing it more to one side or the other. Technically removing that card will change the remaining deck composition, and will SLIGHTLY alter the edge for the remaining shoe (this is the same effect card counters use). But it's just as likely to help you as it is to help the house.

Quote: Wizard

The premise of card counting is simple, a surplus of aces and tens favor the player, small cards favor the dealer. By using any card counting strategy you can measure how good the rest of the deck is. You don’t need to have a perfect count.

Beautiful, Wiz. Short & sweet. This was true 50 years ago and is still true today. I don't know why so many players today want to complicate things more than need be with supposedly stronger counts and techniques. Whatever happened to the old adage "if it aint broke....."

Quote: Funguy21

I feel, if a dealer burns a card on a already active deck, it changes the cards, thus swings the odds more on the casino side.

Does it change the odds in favor of the casino if someone new joins the table mid-deck? How about if someone goes from playing 1 hand to 2 hands?

Does it change the odds in favor of the casino if someone leaves the table mid-deck?

If burning a card gives the casino an advantage by changing the order of the cards, that means they're stacking the deck, and that's going to get them in a lot of trouble with the gaming commission - far more trouble than they can make up for with the winnings from a few tables.